Hearts Heritage Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 There was a debate last week on what composed an 'unbeaten run'. One poster in particular (don't want to name him as that is against the rules) was adamant that it had to start with a win. That is our current run is 6 rather than 8 because first 2 games were drawn. I've been mulling this over and I think i have realised where He was coming from. Rather that it be the number of games unbeaten that counts it is the 'Bragging Rights' sequence that counts. That is the number of games since a last win or loss with draws only counting for the team who last won or lost. So only when a team wins to they take on the 'Bragging right'. So draws before the win count towards the opponents. Makes sense now , well to me anyway.... I'll do a recalculation and work out the best Derby ones. Ps The reason I thought about this was I was going to work out the total number of days a Hearts or Hibs fan had the bragging rights . I'll work that out and post it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Treasurer Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 You really need to get out more, mate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loveofthegame Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 Still not having it. Our unbeaten run is 8, thats what counts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topcat Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 What about draws at the end of a streak? The 17 in a row starts and ends in wins so it would be unaffected. The 21st of the 22 in a row was Wayne Fosters big day out but the 22nd was a draw so would that streak only appear as 21 by those criteria. This would that mean that Hibs 12 in a row in the 70s was counted as 10 as the last two games were draws and we're still 4 games away from racking up the 3rd best run in the history of the derby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimpos Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 Unless i am mistaken, unbeaten means not having been beat? So not having the op's description at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mahgrassyshoes Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 What about draws at the end of a streak? The 17 in a row starts and ends in wins so it would be unaffected. The 21st of the 22 in a row was Wayne Fosters big day out but the 22nd was a draw so would that streak only appear as 21 by those criteria. This would that mean that Hibs 12 in a row in the 70s was counted as 10 as the last two games were draws and we're still 4 games away from racking up the 3rd best run in the history of the derby No because the draw counts for the last team team to win ie 22 in a row the last team to win was Hearts ergo it is their game unbeaten. Similarly the 70s games the last team to win between the 2 was Hibs so the 2 draws count as part of their unbeaten run. What i believe statsman is trying to say is if after 22 in a row hibs had won the next 7 on the trot, their run would be 7 unbeaten as the run has to start with a win ergo the draw at the end of 22 would only count as part of the hearts run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clerry Jambo Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 Here we go again.....I better warn said person that the OP refers to Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cal_ Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 So Hibs could include the 1st two draws in their last unbeaten run. Think of it like boxing. Win it then retain your title! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sten Guns Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 It must start with a win. Otherwise the draws belong to the other team as far as "the unbeaten run" goes. If Hibs beat us 1-0, then draw with us 49 times, then we win....... We cannot claim Hibs unbeaten run is only 1. They are 50 unbeaten. Not us. "Unbeaten runs" start with a win, in order to reset things if you like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory House M.D. Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 A winning streak starts with a win and consists of all wins. An unbeaten run starts with anything but a loss. HTH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sten Guns Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 A winning streak starts with a win and consists of all wins. An unbeaten run starts with anything but a loss. HTH. Disagree. The first two draws were part of Hibs unbeaten run, not ours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory House M.D. Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 It must start with a win. Otherwise the draws belong to the other team as far as "the unbeaten run" goes. If Hibs beat us 1-0, then draw with us 49 times, then we win....... We cannot claim Hibs unbeaten run is only 1. They are 50 unbeaten. Not us. "Unbeaten runs" start with a win, in order to reset things if you like. IMO, it would be both that went 50 unbeaten. We haven't lost a derby in 8 games. 8 games unbeaten. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory House M.D. Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 Disagree. The first two draws were part of Hibs unbeaten run, not ours. I'd say they are part of both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sten Guns Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 IMO, it would be both that went 50 unbeaten. We haven't lost a derby in 8 games. 8 games unbeaten. I'm my scenario; Prior to the Hearts win it's more a case of, 'we haven't won in 50'. Let's be honest, as a fan, that would be a suicidal scenario. We wouldn't gloat we were unbeaten in 50 would we? Unbeaten runs are about gloating. Head to Head unbeaten runs - cannot share results as part of their bragging right IMO. Those two draws are part of Hibs run. Can't share! Starts with a win! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory House M.D. Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 I'm my scenario; Prior to the Hearts win it's more a case of, 'we haven't won in 50'. Let's be honest, as a fan, that would be a suicidal scenario. We wouldn't gloat we were unbeaten in 50 would we? Unbeaten runs are about gloating. Head to Head unbeaten runs - cannot share results as part of their bragging right IMO. Those two draws are part of Hibs run. Can't share! Starts with a win! IMO, it starts after the last loss for unbeaten runs. I'd say that if there were 49 draws then Hearts won and carried on unbeaten for another 10, that'd be 60 games since we last lost making it 60 games unbeaten. In terms of bragging rights, I personally think an unbeaten run has to have more than one win to be bragworthy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diego10 Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 In terms of bragging rights our current run started in 1875 as far as I'm concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dia Liom Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 christ why is there another thread on this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossthejambo Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 IMO, it starts after the last loss for unbeaten runs. I'd say that if there were 49 draws then Hearts won and carried on unbeaten for another 10, that'd be 60 games since we last lost making it 60 games unbeaten. Might need to have a lie down, but I agree. The clue is of course in the word unbeaten. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I.J Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 I'm not one of they Dr. Samuel Johnsons, but I'm fairly certain that unbeaten means unbeaten. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Bill Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 It must start with a win. Otherwise the draws belong to the other team as far as "the unbeaten run" goes. If Hibs beat us 1-0, then draw with us 49 times, then we win....... We cannot claim Hibs unbeaten run is only 1. They are 50 unbeaten. Not us. Anyone who cannot understand, lacks intelligence. "Unbeaten runs" start with a win, in order to reset things if you like. I don't understand your reasoning and I reckon I am fairly intelligent. Why must an unbeaten run start with a win, when the term 'unbeaten' refers specifically to 'not being beat'? A drawn game is a shared spoil, including a shared 'unbeaten run'. Here is my theory - call it crazy!: Hibs have not beaten us in the last eight derby games. Therefore, we are eight games unbeaten against Hibs. If anyone, with a greater intelligence, would like to dispel the underlined, then please do try. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hearts Heritage Posted September 7, 2011 Author Share Posted September 7, 2011 I made the distintion of 'Bragging rights' which starts with a win and can NEVER overlap 'Unbeaten run' starting with a win or a draw (which WILL overlap) Of course how you feel after a Derby is influenced by A Horsing 0-7 5-1 the scoring pattern within a game Coming back from twice being behind e.g. 3rd Sept 1983 Late equaliser immediately after the opposition score 2-2 last season An equaliser scored on the Sunday Pat Stanton back in the 70s 4 goals in the last 6 minutes and 2 in the last 28 seconds THAT New Year Game! The context of the result Hibs ending 17 and 22 in a row the 'Shoes Off' win The meaning of the result in national terms the 1896 Cup Final The 1896 league 'decider' the 1958 Cup QF the 2006 Semi I did start to rate the derbies since 1970 on that sort of basis agony and ecstacy for both but it ended up seeming like I was being deliberatly biased against Hibs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paolo Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 I don't understand your reasoning and I reckon I am fairly intelligent. Why must an unbeaten run start with a win, when the term 'unbeaten' refers specifically to 'not being beat'? A drawn game is a shared spoil, including a shared 'unbeaten run'. Here is my theory - call it crazy!: Hibs have not beaten us in the last eight derby games. Therefore, we are eight games unbeaten against Hibs. If anyone, with a greater intelligence, would like to dispel the underlined, then please do try. . You are right. Going by the other theory discussed does that mean if we meet Spurs again and win or draw we can not say we are unbeaten the last two times we have met. Anyway, regardless of how it is calculated, we still **** on the Hobos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacDonald Jardine Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 You are right. Going by the other theory discussed does that mean if we meet Spurs again and win or draw we can not say we are unbeaten the last two times we have met. Anyway, regardless of how it is calculated, we still **** on the Hobos. Well yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4marsbars Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 I think an unbeaten run is an unbeaten run and nothing written above has changed my mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kennyblack'sshot Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 It must start with a win. Otherwise the draws belong to the other team as far as "the unbeaten run" goes. If Hibs beat us 1-0, then draw with us 49 times, then we win....... We cannot claim Hibs unbeaten run is only 1. They are 50 unbeaten. Not us. Anyone who cannot understand, lacks intelligence. "Unbeaten runs" start with a win, in order to reset things if you like. No unbeaten runs start and end with a loss. The draws belong to both teams so it's possible to have overlapping unbeaten runs, e.g. Hibs could win 2 in a row (stop laughing at the back) and then draw two in a row giving them an unbeaten run of 4. After the last draw Hearts could win 4 in a row, giving us an unbeaten run of 6. The key to understanding this is understudying the meaning of the word "unbeaten". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 No unbeaten runs start and end with a loss. The draws belong to both teams so it's possible to have overlapping unbeaten runs, e.g. Hibs could win 2 in a row (stop laughing at the back) and then draw two in a row giving them an unbeaten run of 4. After the last draw Hearts could win 4 in a row, giving us an unbeaten run of 6. The key to understanding this is understudying the meaning of the word "unbeaten". So you can step in if the real meaning falls ill? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debut 4 Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 Disagree. The first two draws were part of Hibs unbeaten run, not ours. you are my hero Sten some folk fail to grasp the concept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debut 4 Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 I don't understand your reasoning and I reckon I am fairly intelligent. Why must an unbeaten run start with a win, when the term 'unbeaten' refers specifically to 'not being beat'? A drawn game is a shared spoil, including a shared 'unbeaten run'. Here is my theory - call it crazy!: Hibs have not beaten us in the last eight derby games. Therefore, we are eight games unbeaten against Hibs. If anyone, with a greater intelligence, would like to dispel the underlined, then please do try. . BB, everyone can see we drew the two games before we won and went on the wee run we have just now, but what really determines an unbeaten run? What`s the psychology behind it? To me, a GENUINE unbeaten run starts with a win and ends with a defeat, quite simple. How can we claim the two draws as part of a genuine unbeaten stretch when Hibs were the last team to win previous to them? Call it philosophy, a default rule, unwritten rule or whatever, but to me the team who wins last has the claim to the coming draws as part of the unbeaten run until they are defeated....just a football thing to me, maybe some have never been involved in a team game scenario and have only ever been computer nerds? Put it this way, and its a a bit silly, if we drew the next 21 derbies and Hibs won the 22nd, are we happy to let them say they`ve gone 22 games in a row without defeat? All they have done is stop our undefeated run imo because we won last. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topcat Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 The thing about an epic unbeaten run is you don't really notice it until it's already well underway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Bill Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 I don't understand your reasoning and I reckon I am fairly intelligent. Why must an unbeaten run start with a win, when the term 'unbeaten' refers specifically to 'not being beat'? A drawn game is a shared spoil, including a shared 'unbeaten run'. Here is my theory - call it crazy!: Hibs have not beaten us in the last eight derby games. Therefore, we are eight games unbeaten against Hibs. If anyone, with a greater intelligence, would like to dispel the underlined, then please do try. . BB, everyone can see we drew the two games before we won and went on the wee run we have just now, but what really determines an unbeaten run? What`s the psychology behind it? To me, a GENUINE unbeaten run starts with a win and ends with a defeat, quite simple. How can we claim the two draws as part of a genuine unbeaten stretch when Hibs were the last team to win previous to them? Call it philosophy, a default rule, unwritten rule or whatever, but to me the team who wins last has the claim to the coming draws as part of the unbeaten run until they are defeated....just a football thing to me, maybe some have never been involved in a team game scenario and have only ever been computer nerds? Put it this way, and its a a bit silly, if we drew the next 21 derbies and Hibs won the 22nd, are we happy to let them say they`ve gone 22 games in a row without defeat? All they have done is stop our undefeated run imo because we won last. Because we were unbeaten! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Bishop Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 They havent beaten us for 8 games hence we are "unbeaten" v them in eight. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debut 4 Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 Because we were unbeaten! Yes! but im talking about the true essence of being unbeaten in a sequence.....after a draw the sequence hinges on the next victory and who wins it..... So, before we won in the Driver/Glen 2-1, were you thinking we are unbeaten in two games? In theory yes because we hadn`t lost in those two draws but i wasn`t , i was thinking we hadn`t beaten them in 4 and THEY were unbeaten in that time...... Just going to leave it now ffs......if Hearts go unbeaten in the next 16 we`ll have went 22 in a row again, to some it`ll be 24 .......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coburg Hearts Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 What if those 8 games were not against hibs but were our last 8 league matches. Is anyone seriously trying to say we would only have a 6 game unbeaten run and not an 8 game one? Is this some new law of Physics that has passed me by? I'm so sad that those last 2 draws against hibs were really defeats. I better give some money back to the bookies too. Life sucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diego10 Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 I couldn't really care that much about unbeaten runs anyway tbh. I'd take 9 wins and one defeat over 5 wins and 5 draws any day. All about beating them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfstar Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 We have not lost a derby for 8 games.... Hence an unbeaten run of 8 games This is simple stuff lads Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coburg Hearts Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 We have not lost a derby for 8 games.... Hence an unbeaten run of 8 games This is simple stuff lads Too simple for some, apparently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mahgrassyshoes Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 What if those 8 games were not against hibs but were our last 8 league matches. Is anyone seriously trying to say we would only have a 6 game unbeaten run and not an 8 game one? Is this some new law of Physics that has passed me by? I'm so sad that those last 2 draws against hibs were really defeats. I better give some money back to the bookies too. Life sucks. Why were you betting on a draw anyway?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coburg Hearts Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 Why were you betting on a draw anyway?! I wasn't, it was draw no bet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dannymack Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 Tuppence worth..... Winning and loosing are vital, Hearts are unbeaten in 8 BUT the first 2 of these games are included in Hibs' unbeaten run. Calls for Doc Emmett Brown please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kennyblack'sshot Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 It's very simple, you have: - winning streaks (when you win every game) - Losing streaks (when you lose every game) - Unbeaten runs (when you don't lose) The start of an unbeaten run is irrelevant as, by definition, it includes a streak of games in which you have not been beaten. Whether your unbeaten run starts with a draw or win is irrelevant as the criteria involved is not losing. What the other team does is also irrelevant, and if they count draws as part of their own unbeaten run then that's fine as a draw means sharing the points, which also means sharing the results, which also means possibly sharing part of an unbeaten run. Tuppence worth..... Winning and loosing are vital, Hearts are unbeaten in 8 BUT the first 2 of these games are included in Hibs' unbeaten run. Calls for Doc Emmett Brown please. This scenario means Hearts two hard fought draws count for nought. Why should we hand Hibs these results to include in their unbeaten run and not ours, just because they happened to be the winner of the last non-drawn game? A draw is a won point - we deserve it and the result as much as the other team. And what about unbeaten runs not against a particular team, i.e. an unbeaten run of 10 games in the league against 10 opponents? If that started after a defeat to Rangers and involved four draws then six wins, are people saying our unbeaten run would in fact be 6 games, even thought we haven't lost in 10? "That would be highly illogical captain." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad-Stupid Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 8 games. Unless you sniff glue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stanley_ Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 I can't believe people are arguing that an "unbeaten" run must start with you winning, not being unbeaten. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Bill Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Just to clarify: A Hearts and a Hibs 'unbeaten run' can overlap. Any 'draw' scenario can be the basis for an unbeaten run for both teams concurrently. So an unbeaten run need not start with a win, as a drawn game refers specifically to the notion of being unbeaten. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 As far as I'm concerned, it's 8 unbeaten but 6 in a row. Hope this helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomstick Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 This thread is appalling. Simple, basic stuff here. The real essence of an unbeaten run...the psychological meaning behind an unbeaten run is not getting beat. It can't mean anything else and is simple to understand. Unless you were born with an extra chromosome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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