When is a sport not a sport?

[Brian Whittaker's Tache]

Was having this discussion about sports with my mate the other night

 

In my opinion:

Darts - not a sport

Snooker - Not a sport

Bowls - Not a sport

 

Sport to me is something you have to break sweat to do

 

These are pastimes

[Stewart MacD]

Swimming is a recreation, not a sport (but tell that to the Aussies!).

[ecjambo]

Ive seen plenty of Darts players break sweat on stage. Barney especially. He sweats buckets under those lights. And how about Andy Fordham? He use to sweat alot aswell. Mainly due to worrying about where his next pint would come from.

 

Id class them all a sport. Play alot of pool/snooker. Just feel that a sport doesnt always have to be about running or keeping active so to say. Working the brain is key to most sports.

[christhejambo]

I would still consider snooker a sport. Hell of a lot of skill involved. It involves hitting a ball into a hole with a stick- surely not that different from golf in that respect, and we all consider that a sport- and fatties like Monty aside, golf doesnt involve much sweat.

[Therapist]

A sport is something that one can only do at the top level if one is physically very fit. Therefore swimming, football, rugby, boxing, athletics etc are all sports.

 

Darts, golf, snooker, bowls, curling, etc are therefore pastimes not sports.

[Edinburgh JT]

I would say all of the above mentioned are sports tbh. They all require physical competence in some area and there is the potential to compete against someone else if you desire. I can see how people struggle with the idea of darts but how can you doubt something like swimming! Swimming is up there with the most intense of sports in terms of how many muscles your body has to use to maintain speed

[Gavsy Van Gaverson]

Ive seen plenty of Darts players break sweat on stage. Barney especially. He sweats buckets under those lights. And how about Andy Fordham? He use to sweat alot aswell. Mainly due to worrying about where his next pint would come from.

 

Id class them all a sport. Play alot of pool/snooker. Just feel that a sport doesnt always have to be about running or keeping active so to say. Working the brain is key to most sports.

 

Neily1874 wants to drink a pint of Barney's sweat

[Sherlock]

I don't think darts or snooker are sports but, considering that no-one under 60 should play the game, i think bowls should be included.

[Cigaro]

Swimming is a recreation, not a sport (but tell that to the Aussies!).

 

Its a recreation if you're paddling about.

 

Try doing it competitively and you'll realise its definitely a sport.

[Maximus]

A sport to me is any competitive game/activity that involves physical exertion (har har)and entails skills that take considerable practise to perfect. Physical exertion includes walking round a snooker table IMO, not sure darts would qualify.

[Bigyan]

I wrote an essay in first year of uni about the difference between sport and leisure, cant find it but it basically said that sport was competitive, structured, physical activity played within a defined space and time frame with the objective of winning.

 

That suggests to me that darts snooker bowls etc are all sports as they still meet this loose definition above.

 

Swimming I suppose depends on the context. People can swim for leisure or fitness but as soon as a structure or a competitive element is added it becomes a sport.

[Therapist]

I wrote an essay in first year of uni about the difference between sport and leisure, cant find it but it basically said that sport was competitive, structured, physical activity played within a defined space and time frame with the objective of winning.

 

That suggests to me that darts snooker bowls etc are all sports as they still meet this loose definition above.

 

I assume you didn't pass.

 

Given that any activity involving movement features some element of physical exertion, your suggested definition is pretty meaningless.

[Bigyan]

I assume you didn't pass.

 

Given that any activity involving movement features some element of physical exertion, your suggested definition is pretty meaningless.

 

Im really failing to understand where you are coming from.

 

so are you suggesting because darts for example doesnt have as much physical exertion than say running a marathon it isnt a sport??

 

Lets break it down - is darts competitive - yes!

structured - yes!

physical - to an extent yes!

played within a pre defined space and time - yes!

is the goal to win? yes in most occassions it is!

 

On that basis darts is a sport!

 

If i took your argument the wrong way there then apologies!

[Ivan Drago]

A sport to me is any competitive game/activity that involves physical exertion (har har)and entails skills that take considerable practise to perfect. Physical exertion includes walking round a snooker table IMO, not sure darts would qualify.

 

they do a lot of walking though to collect their darts after throwing...

[SUTOL]

You maybe have to define what you mean by "sport" rather than nameing activities that can be defined as "a sport".

 

People can be defined as being a 'good sport' etc which ahs nothing to do with games.

 

Another differentiation could be 'field sports' such as fly fishing or clay shooting, are either of these sports?

[Therapist]

Im really failing to understand where you are coming from.

 

so are you suggesting because darts for example doesnt have as much physical exertion than say running a marathon it isnt a sport??

 

Lets break it down - is darts competitive - yes!

structured - yes!

physical - to an extent yes!

played within a pre defined space and time - yes!

is the goal to win? yes in most occassions it is!

 

On that basis darts is a sport!

 

If i took your argument the wrong way there then apologies!

 

You didn't take my argument the wrong way.

 

My point was that your definition was too loose with regard to the physical aspects. Under your definition, chess would be classed as sport.

 

If you check my suggested definition from an earlier post, I'd proposed that a sport is something that requires a very high level of physical fitness if it's to be performed at the top level.

 

For example Jocky Wilson was World Darts Champion but physically he was a wreck. Someone like (say) Sir Steve Redgrave could not have been competitive in rowing without a very high level of physical fitness. That is the difference between a sport and a pastime.

[Commander Harris]

I would offer a definition similar to that of OEW although with a slight difference.

 

my definition would not require "physical exertion" per se - but only that the skill involved had a significant physical component.

 

by this definition Darts and Snooker would be sport - as they are competitive and rely on a skill with a signifcant physical component - whereas a competitive game such as chess would not qualify - as the skill is entirely a mental one even if physical activity is required to move the pieces.

[Bigyan]

You didn't take my argument the wrong way.

 

My point was that your definition was too loose with regard to the physical aspects. Under your definition, chess would be classed as sport.

 

If you check my suggested definition from an earlier post, I'd proposed that a sport is something that requires a very high level of physical fitness if it's to be performed at the top level.

 

For example Jocky Wilson was World Darts Champion but physically he was a wreck. Someone like (say) Sir Steve Redgrave could not have been competitive in rowing without a very high level of physical fitness. That is the difference between a sport and a pastime.

 

Fair enough. Yes under my definition chess would be classed as a sport. You may not have to be physically fit to play chess but there is a mental fitness required.

 

The physical fitness aspect is where our opinions are differing. You seem to be of the opinion that for something to be classed as a sport it needs to involve a high level of exertion when performing at the top level. But there are all these other factors that need to be added in, like the competitive nature etc.

 

I think if we are getting onto the difference between sport and a pastime, sport is something that we do for the thrill of winning or the rewards that come with winning, hence the competitive nature where as to do something as a pastime is to do something purely for the love of the activity.

 

Going back to the example of swimming, it is a sport when you are competiting either against a stopwatch or competitor with the objective of winning but if you say "hmm I fancy going for a swim" purely for the reason you love swimming, it becomes a pastime.

 

It all depends on the context really!

[felix]

You didn't take my argument the wrong way.

 

My point was that your definition was too loose with regard to the physical aspects. Under your definition, chess would be classed as sport.

 

If you check my suggested definition from an earlier post, I'd proposed that a sport is something that requires a very high level of physical fitness if it's to be performed at the top level.

 

For example Jocky Wilson was World Darts Champion but physically he was a wreck. Someone like (say) Sir Steve Redgrave could not have been competitive in rowing without a very high level of physical fitness. That is the difference between a sport and a pastime.

 

Agree with your definition but you're wrong about golf.

To play at the highest level needs a high degree of physical (and mental) fitness.

[jambovambo]

Ive seen plenty of Darts players break sweat on stage. Barney especially. He sweats buckets under those lights. And how about Andy Fordham? He use to sweat alot aswell. Mainly due to worrying about where his next pint would come from.

 

Id class them all a sport. Play alot of pool/snooker. Just feel that a sport doesnt always have to be about running or keeping active so to say. Working the brain is key to most sports.

 

Chess?

 

Sudoku?

 

Scrabble?

[Edinburgh JT]

I would offer a definition similar to that of OEW although with a slight difference.

 

my definition would not require "physical exertion" per se - but only that the skill involved had a significant physical component.

 

by this definition Darts and Snooker would be sport - as they are competitive and rely on a skill with a signifcant physical component - whereas a competitive game such as chess would not qualify - as the skill is entirely a mental one even if physical activity is required to move the pieces.

 

IMO this is the best response to the original question.

[felix]

I would offer a definition similar to that of OEW although with a slight difference.

 

my definition would not require "physical exertion" per se - but only that the skill involved had a significant physical component.

 

by this definition Darts and Snooker would be sport -

 

Throwing a 31-gram piece of metal , just over 7ft ??

 

If that's physical exertion; I look forward to the next World Nail Filing & Manicuring Championships

[Commander Harris]

Throwing a 31-gram piece of metal , just over 7ft ??

 

If that's physical exertion; I look forward to the next World Nail Filing & Manicuring Championships

 

I didn't say it was exertion - that was my whole point. but it is a skill with a physical component.

 

While it doesn't require strength it does require that the arm is physically used in such a way as to ensure the accuracy of the throw.

[felix]

I didn't say it was exertion - that was my whole point. but it is a skill with a physical component.

 

Like Chess, or Nail Filing, or Knitting...

[Commander Harris]

Like Chess, or Nail Filing, or Knitting...

 

I mentioned chess in my original post. The skill in chess does not have a physical component.

 

whereas a competitive game such as chess would not qualify - as the skill is entirely a mental one even if physical activity is required to move the pieces.

 

my definition was a refinement on OEW definition. Competition is required.

 

is nail filing competitive? is knitting competitive?

[shaun.lawson]

You didn't take my argument the wrong way.

 

My point was that your definition was too loose with regard to the physical aspects. Under your definition, chess would be classed as sport.

 

If you check my suggested definition from an earlier post, I'd proposed that a sport is something that requires a very high level of physical fitness if it's to be performed at the top level.

 

For example Jocky Wilson was World Darts Champion but physically he was a wreck. Someone like (say) Sir Steve Redgrave could not have been competitive in rowing without a very high level of physical fitness. That is the difference between a sport and a pastime.

 

Absolutely. I agree. In that regard, Ronnie O'Sullivan goes running several miles every morning; Stephen Hendry used to prepare for the World Championship by boxing in the gym; and John Higgins was also busy in the gym prior to regaining the world title last year. And then there's Peter Ebdon - who swims at least a mile every day, keeps himself in tremendous shape, and has great attention to diet, nutrition and so on. And yet, despite all this, when he won the world title in 2002, he lost almost a stone and a half over the seventeen days, just from playing snooker!

 

The ignorance and misconceptions held about top-level snooker drive me crazy. The sport requires tremendous hand-eye coordination, but above all, immense degrees of concentration: you literally have to sweat blood to win the world title, because it is a physical and mental marathon. So players who don't look after themselves (eg. Stephen Lee, Tony Drago, or even Jimmy White in recent years) don't win big tournaments - but those who apply themselves properly do. Physical fitness is crucial for top snooker players nowadays - which is precisely why it damn well is a sport!

[bigwull22]

If Scotsmen are good at it, its not a sport, beginning to wonder aboult tennis these days;):107years:

[felix]

I mentioned chess in my original post.

The skill in chess does not have a physical component.

 

Agreed . Nor does darts.

 

Competition is required.

 

is nail filing competitive? is knitting competitive?[/

Feel the tension :-

 

[Brian Whittaker's Tache]

Absolutely. I agree. In that regard, Ronnie O'Sullivan goes running several miles every morning; Stephen Hendry used to prepare for the World Championship by boxing in the gym; and John Higgins was also busy in the gym prior to regaining the world title last year. And then there's Peter Ebdon - who swims at least a mile every day, keeps himself in tremendous shape, and has great attention to diet, nutrition and so on. And yet, despite all this, when he won the world title in 2002, he lost almost a stone and a half over the seventeen days, just from playing snooker!

 

The ignorance and misconceptions held about top-level snooker drive me crazy. The sport requires tremendous hand-eye coordination, but above all, immense degrees of concentration: you literally have to sweat blood to win the world title, because it is a physical and mental marathon. So players who don't look after themselves (eg. Stephen Lee, Tony Drago, or even Jimmy White in recent years) don't win big tournaments - but those who apply themselves properly do. Physical fitness is crucial for top snooker players nowadays - which is precisely why it damn well is a sport!

 

You'll be a snooker fan then?

[Sparky]

current definitions of what is a sport and what isn't are varied, contradictory and incomplete.

 

What is the difference between darts and archery? Is archery more of a sport because it is an olympic game?

You could say darts is more 'sport-like' since it requires greater mental dexterity and tactics.

what about shooting?

[Ribble]

Definitions of sport -

1. a. Physical activity that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often engaged in competitively. b. A particular form of this activity.

2. An activity involving physical exertion and skill that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often undertaken competitively.

3. An active pastime; recreation

[Therapist]

Absolutely. I agree. In that regard, Ronnie O'Sullivan goes running several miles every morning; Stephen Hendry used to prepare for the World Championship by boxing in the gym; and John Higgins was also busy in the gym prior to regaining the world title last year. And then there's Peter Ebdon - who swims at least a mile every day, keeps himself in tremendous shape, and has great attention to diet, nutrition and so on.

 

For every Stephen Hendry there's a Bill Werbeniuk.

 

Some snooker players may keep themselves fit, but that's simply a lifestyle choice and isn't at anywhere near the level of fitness required of a professional in a proper sport such as rugby or football. O'Sullivan only runs to help stave off his bouts of depression, not because he needs to be fit for snooker.

 

Snooker is a parlour game, nothing more. Doesn't mean it's not enjoyable..

 

In

[Therapist]

To play at the highest level needs a high degree of physical (and mental) fitness.

 

Agree with the mental aspect, but not the physical one.

 

Check out how fat top golfers like Monty, Cabrera, Mickelson, Westwood, etc are. Woods chooses to work out because he feels it helps his game, but it's not strictly necessary. You can reach the top in golf without being physically fit but you couldn't do it in a proper sport like football or boxing.

 

Golf is a pastime, albeit a more energetic one than snooker.

[vladtheexhaler]

Agree with the mental aspect, but not the physical one.

 

Check out how fat top golfers like Monty, Cabrera, Mickelson, Westwood, etc are. Woods chooses to work out because he feels it helps his game, but it's not strictly necessary. You can reach the top in golf without being physically fit but you couldn't do it in a proper sport like football or boxing.

 

Golf is a pastime, albeit a more energetic one than snooker.

 

What about Sumo wrestling where it's pretty hard to reach the top unless you're a fatty boom boom. Personally I'll call it a sport as it must be pretty tiring lifting whole chickens, pigs and wilderbeast to your mouth every few minutes while 'training'.

[Therapist]

Sumo is definitely a sport given the physical exertion it requires.

[Chester™]

all posters have valid points on what is a sport and what isnt. Seeing im/was a bowler, I can tell you now its bloody hard work. Staying on that green in 25-30 degree heat for 3-4 hours and needing some kind of mental fitness as well, certainly takes it out of you. And if you were a bowler like me who ran down the green shouting at bowls and being highly animated, it can be very exhausting. On the basis of playing it for long enough, I certainly regard it as a sport.

[felix]

Agree with the mental aspect, but not the physical one.

 

Check out how fat top golfers like Monty, Cabrera, Mickelson, Westwood, etc are. Woods chooses to work out because he feels it helps his game, but it's not strictly necessary. You can reach the top in golf without being physically fit but you couldn't do it in a proper sport like football or boxing.

 

Golf is a pastime, albeit a more energetic one than snooker.

 

Just like snooker,if you dig deep you'll find a fatty like Craig Stadler but todays golfers are extremely fit.

 

As Monty's waistline has expanded over the years, so his success has diminished.

Mickleson's physically imposing and having had the pleasure of playing with Westwood, his gut detracts from a massive upper body strength and popeye arms, common to most top pros. By your physical exertion test therefore, golf imo is most definately a sport.

[Therapist]

By your physical exertion test therefore, golf imo is most definately a sport.

 

No it's not. The pros don't even carry their own clubs.

[Commander Harris]

Agreed . Nor does darts.

 

 

of course the skill in darts has a physical component - the player uses his arm to throw a dart with accuracy.

[Hugh Watt]

Best definition I've heard of sport;

 

"Can you play it in the rain?"

 

YES = real sport

 

NO = not real sport!

 

- Always gets the tennis and cricket mob going that one!

 

[ecjambo]

Ok darts players, most of them could do with losing a couple of stone. But you try practising throwing darts for hours on end. You'd get a hell of a sore arm. Still a partly physical sport if you think about it.

 

Snooker and Pool are the same. To be the best you must practice for hours everyday, now please tell me how that isnt physically demanding. Mentally demanding aswell. You need 100% concetration at all times.

 

You can argue till the cows come home about what is a sport and what isnt. In my eyes snooker, pool, darts are sports.

[Carl Spackler]

My definition is if you play it in the pub it isn't a Sport it's a pastime.

[The Merse]

Commander Harris has nailed it imo.

 

Apparently they are trying to make Poker a sport, now that would be one of the few sports I'm good at.

 

[Ulysses]

I look forward to the next World Nail Filing & Manicuring Championships

 

Me too; Austria is lovely in September.

 

 

[felix]

of course the skill in darts has a physical component - the player uses his arm to throw a dart with accuracy.

 

I'd argue the " physical component" evident in darts is almost as significant as that required to move a chess piece and certainly equal to the effort required in blow-football or shove ha'penny, and they're definately not sports !

 

Your "physical component" + competitiveness + skill definition also makes Skittles, Bowls, Conkers and the World Lumberjack Championships, "sports".

 

There's clearly more to it, 'reckon it's the physical exertion aspect, coupled with a recognised & accepted governing body that separate Sport from Pastimes.

[Commander Harris]

I'd argue the " physical component" evident in darts is almost as significant as that required to move a chess piece and certainly equal to the effort required in blow-football or shove ha'penny, and they're definately not sports !

 

Your "physical component" + competitiveness + skill definition also makes Skittles, Bowls, Conkers and the World Lumberjack Championships, "sports".

 

There's clearly more to it, 'reckon it's the physical exertion aspect, coupled with a recognised & accepted governing body that separate Sport from Pastimes.

 

no definition is perfect - but I believe mine to be the best

 

the difference between darts and chess is that in chess the act of moving the pieces is secondary to the actual skill of deciding where a piece should be moved to. Whereas in darts the physical action is the skill(although there are obvious mental elements in deciding where to throw the dart) - regardless of whether it is an exertion or not.

 

I would suggest that your "exertion" criteria is problematic - just about any activity requires a level of physical exertion so what you are really saying is physical exertion of a kind that you consider to be legitimate for a sport. This is a rather circular definition.

 

I would consider Skittles, ten-pin bowling, bowls etc to be sports. (when played competitively)

 

As for your more trivial examples I would say they are also sports - just rather stupid ones.

 

I do agree that the presence of a governing body is important though.

[felix]

no definition is perfect - but I believe mine to be the best

 

I quite liked BigWull's definition :- "If Scotland are good at it, It's not a sport."

 

This quickly gets rid of Curling , Drinking and Elephant Polo.

[Commander Harris]

I quite liked BigWull's definition :- "If Scotland are good at it, It's not a sport."

 

This quickly gets rid of Curling , Drinking and Elephant Polo.

 

yup - BigWull wins.