Borders rail link

[Coco]

Certainly the work to build the new Hardengreen viaduct is very obvious at the roundabout. Hopefully be pretty impressive when it is built.

 

Think that the KLF's version of burning a million pounds was more impressive than the burning of at least ?150m on a ridiculous train set. At least it was their money.

 

 

 

A new railway line to a sparsely populated area with just 600 parking spaces and none at Galashiels!

[Locky]

Looking forward to using the trains when I go to visit family in Hawick.

 

The worst part of the bus journey is the Edinburgh to Galashiels leg in my eyes.

 

Hopefully it'll reach Hawick one day.

[ellie0028]

Gotta say Im looking forward to this,Gorebridge seems to have the worst bus route the 33,only good thing is it goes to Gorgie!

The thought of getting the train and being in the town in half the time (i hope) appeals to me

[davemclaren]

Less than a year until this opens. Great progress to date.

[The Real Maroonblood]

 

Less than a year until this opens. Great progress to date.

What is the route?

[davemclaren]

 

 

What is the route?

 

Newcraighall to Shawfair to eskbank to nitten to gorebridge to stow to Galashiels to tweed bank.

 

http://www.campaignforbordersrail.org

Edited October 14, 2014 by davemclaren

[Jambos_1874]

I've been really impressed with the progress they've made on this. I've also been surprised by the apparently low level of disruption although I don't live near the route and admttedly the A7 does have a lot of roadworks.

[Franco Fascione]

 

Apparently the station at Gorebridge is going to be outside my local boozer...

 

I'm either gonna end up in Tweedbank or Edinburgh after a few too many when it does eventually happen,

 

This happened to a friend of mine when we lived in London. He was supposed to get off at Forest Hill, fell asleep after a few too many, got of at the last stop somewhere in Kent, had to get a costly taxi home.

[Currahee!]

I've been really impressed with the progress they've made on this. I've also been surprised by the apparently low level of disruption although I don't live near the route and admttedly the A7 does have a lot of roadworks.

 

There is plenty of disruption.

 

Usually 5 sets of traffic lights between Gala and Gorebridge.

 

Also Gala is a nightmare to get around. Winston Road has been shut for a year which means a 3 mile round trip through the town centre which has lanes shut etc. 10-15 minute trip which normally takes 2 minutes.

 

I'll be glad when its finished.

[The Real Maroonblood]

 

 

 

Newcraighall to Shawfair to eskbank to nitten to gorebridge to stow to Galashiels to tweed bank.

 

http://www.campaignforbordersrail.org

Thanks for the link.

Do you think that route will be used quite a lot?

It was criminal what Beeching did in this country with the rail network.

I hope it is a success.

 

 

[Coco]

Will be interesting to see if the actual costs are ever revealed - including all the preparatory works, road moving, road repair works etc.

 

Worth remembering that even on the best case that the leech consultants could come up with - on a 60 year benefit case! - half the money spent is to be wasted with a benefit:cost ratio of 0.5. At least ?150m of public money wasted on official figures. Obviously dwarfed by some of the other wastes of public money - new Forth bridge, Edinburgh trams etc. But still ridiculous.

[The Real Maroonblood]

 

Will be interesting to see if the actual costs are ever revealed - including all the preparatory works, road moving, road repair works etc.

 

Worth remembering that even on the best case that the leech consultants could come up with - on a 60 year benefit case! - half the money spent is to be wasted with a benefit:cost ratio of 0.5. At least ?150m of public money wasted on official figures. Obviously dwarfed by some of the other wastes of public money - new Forth bridge, Edinburgh trams etc. But still ridiculous.

Your second last sentence sums up this country.

Absolutely useless when it comes to things like this.

Most other civilised countries have the foresight with public transport but greed takes over in this country.

[Carl Fredrickson]

I am looking forward to the line being opened and hope that it is a success.

 

I am disappointed that it ends at Tweedbank as I thought if it continued to Carlisle that it would encourage more usage. It minds me a bit of the trams in that it appears to be half done.

 

Time will tell if it is used or not but i reckon i will use it for nights out "in the town" as our bus service is not the most reliable in the sticks. Irregular users like me will not be enough to justify it.

[Prince Buaben]

Hopefully it is a success. Might be a reason to open another line or re-open the line that goes round the city.

[Carl Fredrickson]

Hopefully it is a success. Might be a reason to open another line or re-open the line that goes round the city.

 

I thought that this would have been a far better and wider used service than the trams.

[Prince Buaben]

I thought that this would have been a far better and wider used service than the trams.

 

Without hijacking the thread. I think it would be as it takes people places that isnt just princes street or the airport. You would also get from one side of the city quicker than the current bus system.

[Coco]

Without hijacking the thread. I think it would be as it takes people places that isnt just princes street or the airport. You would also get from one side of the city quicker than the current bus system.

 

The South Suburban had a benefit cost ratio which was 40% higher than the Borders Railway (but still economically mad at 0.7) - but the operating loss per year was estimated to be only ?2m and the cost of getting it going ?38m. Set this against the billion pound tram which requires ongoing subsidy per year of monies in the region of ?20-30m. Or the Borders Railway at ?350m plus and with unknown subsidy levels to keep it going.

http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/download/meetings/id/28980/edinburgh_south_suburban_railway_-_supplementary_assessment

 

It is so easy to spend other people's money.

[Jambos_1874]

There is plenty of disruption.

 

Usually 5 sets of traffic lights between Gala and Gorebridge.

 

Also Gala is a nightmare to get around. Winston Road has been shut for a year which means a 3 mile round trip through the town centre which has lanes shut etc. 10-15 minute trip which normally takes 2 minutes.

 

I'll be glad when its finished.

 

I'd hardly classify the disruption in Gala as anything significant. The closure of Winston Rd is a pain but it's hardly a major inconvenience and the detour isn't significant. Relatively speaking the disruption hasn't been too bad - compared to the Edinburgh trams it is absolutely nothing. The A7 is a bit of a nightmare but it is an absolutely sh*te road anyway and there's always the alternative of going up via the A68 which is a far better road.

 

It's good that the Borders will finally get a train line but I just cannot see it being used much outwith Edinburgh/Midlothian as there isn't the population to support it, the route's crap, it'll no doubt be more expensive than the bus and it doesn't extend to Carlisle.

Edited October 15, 2014 by Jambos_1874

[Currahee!]

I'd hardly classify the disruption in Gala as anything significant. The closure of Winston Rd is a pain but it's hardly a major inconvenience and the detour isn't significant. Relatively speaking the disruption hasn't been too bad - compared to the Edinburgh trams it is absolutely nothing. The A7 is a bit of a nightmare but it is an absolutely sh*te road anyway and there's always the alternative of going up via the A68 which is a far better road.

 

It's good that the Borders will finally get a train line but I just cannot see it being used much outwith Edinburgh/Midlothian as there isn't the population to support it, the route's crap, it'll no doubt be more expensive than the bus and it doesn't extend to Carlisle.

 

Gala is a nightmare to get around.

 

Granted its not just the railway which is causing it but it is the main culprit.

 

They were doing the flood prevention so Huddersfield street was a nightmare too which meant the top of Tweed Road was a shambles.

 

I can't agree that the A7 is shite. It's the drivers on it that haven't a clue. As you say though the A68 is a much better road.

 

I'll be glad when its all finished.

[skinnybob72]

The South Sub could have new stations added for Kinnaird Park and Cameron Toll as well as previous stations reopened.

 

Folk living in the east of the city could get a train from the likes of Kinnaird Park - Gorgie on match days in about 15 mins tops.

[FWJ]

 

Will be interesting to see if the actual costs are ever revealed - including all the preparatory works, road moving, road repair works etc.

 

Worth remembering that even on the best case that the leech consultants could come up with - on a 60 year benefit case! - half the money spent is to be wasted with a benefit:cost ratio of 0.5. At least ?150m of public money wasted on official figures. Obviously dwarfed by some of the other wastes of public money - new Forth bridge, Edinburgh trams etc. But still ridiculous.

I hope this doesn't sound confrontational because it's a genuine question... What transport infrastructure developments do you think are worthwhile?

[Seymour M Hersh]

I thought that this would have been a far better and wider used service than the trams.

 

Of course it would have been. Also had the coonsil eejits really wanted to improve transport infrastructure in the city they could have used the old railway lines that are now for dog walkers and cyclists.

[All roads lead to Gorgie]

I wonder how the fares on the borders line will compete with the buses: the last time I checked it was about ?12.10 on first borders. They will have to remain within about ?5 of the bus fare to appeal to the traveling public imo. They might be quicker but to regular travellers cost matters.!!!

[Cade]

I wonder how the fares on the borders line will compete with the buses: the last time I checked it was about ?12.10 on first borders. They will have to remain within about ?5 of the bus fare to appeal to the traveling public imo. They might be quicker but to regular travellers cost matters.!!!

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk...otland-26323232

 

There you go chief.

 

Bus from Edinburgh to Gala currently costs ?7.20 and takes between 90 mins and 2 hours. (depending on the service you get on).

Trains will take less than an hour to complete the journey.

Edited October 16, 2014 by Cade

[All roads lead to Gorgie]

http://www.bbc.co.uk...otland-26323232

 

There you go chief.

 

Bus from Edinburgh to Gala currently costs ?7.20 and takes between 90 mins and 2 hours. (depending on the service you get on).

Trains will take less than an hour to complete the journey.

Thanks for the info. So less than ?20 return to Gala compared to ?12 on the bus is not too bad and saving at least half an hour will sway a lot of people onto rail. Also the point it goes to Haymarket will be helpful for some to get to Tynie.!!!

[Coco]

Thanks for the info. So less than ?20 return to Gala compared to ?12 on the bus is not too bad and saving at least half an hour will sway a lot of people onto rail. Also the point it goes to Haymarket will be helpful for some to get to Tynie.!!!

 

From a scan of the hardly used buses ... many of the customers are paying nothing to travel on the bus

I hope this doesn't sound confrontational because it's a genuine question... What transport infrastructure developments do you think are worthwhile?

 

No problem. I'm in favour of projects which provide a good return on investment. Otherwise the money is wasted and there are legion other opportunities to use public money in better ways.

Edited October 16, 2014 by Coco

[Carl Spackler]

No problem. I'm in favour of projects which provide a good return on investment. Otherwise the money is wasted and there are legion other opportunities to use public money in better ways.

 

Coco you came down hard on the trams as did I but the Borders Rail is much different for me. The benefit it will potentially bring to the Borders and Midlothian for existing commuters and potential new commuters, potentially more viable development for these commuters, and what it may achieve in reducing congestion in and around town all make this a much more worthwhile project. Calculating the actual return is difficult but I'm certain it will more than pay for itself within as little as maybe ten years.

 

The relative costs due to the line being mostly intact and so requiring only relaying for much of its length meant that this project was a good one in general in my eye.

 

They are delivering it on time too. My only complaint is that like most of the other lines that serve as park and rides into Edinburgh the Car Parks aren't going to be big enough from what I've seen.

[FWJ]

 

 

 

From a scan of the hardly used buses ... many of the customers are paying nothing to travel on the bus

 

 

No problem. I'm in favour of projects which provide a good return on investment. Otherwise the money is wasted and there are legion other opportunities to use public money in better ways.

Again, genuine question, do any transport infrastructure projects (especially public transport) operate at a profit - especially including capital cost?

Also, would you close down all unprofitable rail lines in Scotland?

[Martin_T]

 

 

Isn't the old line to Melrose built over with a road?

 

Perhaps they think that the line will be such a success that there will be a clamour for it to be extended to Carlisle.

 

It is incredible how pork barrel politics overtakes economic reality. If there are really no projects with a cost:benefit ratio of above 0.5 available to the Scottish Government then it is time that taxes came down.

 

Is the NHS justifiable on a cost benefit basis Coco?

[Coco]

Again, genuine question, do any transport infrastructure projects (especially public transport) operate at a profit - especially including capital cost?

Also, would you close down all unprofitable rail lines in Scotland?

 

Yes, some existing projects operate at a profit, but of course most need some sort of public subsidy. But just because many make cash or accounting losses is not to say that they do not provide benefits greater than their cost. The Borders Railway benefit cost study includes all sorts of development benefits which may or may not be realised. But they are in the study - and even with them it is impossible to make the case stack up. There are huge numbers of potential uses of public money which would not result in half of the money being wasted (and I note that it might well be much more than that as there is currently no cost control of the budget - and I know for a FACT that Network Rail are spraying money around).

 

No I wouldn't close down all unprofitable rail lines. But I wouldn't open those with a benefit cost ratio of 0.5. HS2 by the way has its leech consultants providing a benefit cost ratio of 2.3, London Crossrail 2.1 ... and the Public Accounts Committee says that a ratio of 4:1 is good value for money!

[Coco]

Is the NHS justifiable on a cost benefit basis Coco?

 

Yes. Is the provision of new treatments rationed on the basis of return on that investment? Yes.

[Martin_T]

 

 

Yes. Is the provision of new treatments rationed on the basis of return on that investment? Yes.

 

How about the national defence budget?

[Coco]

How about the national defence budget?

 

Not sure what your point is in this. It is that there is wasteful spending elsewhere? Or that there is no wasteful Government spending as it is all burying banknotes or firing them out from a helicopter?

[Martin_T]

 

 

Not sure what your point is in this. It is that there is wasteful spending elsewhere? Or that there is no wasteful Government spending as it is all burying banknotes or firing them out from a helicopter?

 

The point is that not all public spending has to be justifiable by accountancy methods such as cost benefit analysis. Some is simply altruistic.

 

If we're being ultra conservative why not complete remove state spending and let the markets decide. Sure millions would starve, but hey at least our tax bills would probably be lower.

[Coco]

The point is that not all public spending has to be justifiable by accountancy methods such as cost benefit analysis. Some is simply altruistic.

 

If we're being ultra conservative why not complete remove state spending and let the markets decide. Sure millions would starve, but hey at least our tax bills would probably be lower.

 

The crowd carrying out the business case for the Borders Railway scraped an alternative benefit cost ratio up to 1.3 on the basis of claptrap about the value of the railway to people on a non-use basis. That is the option to use a railway for trips not yet expected to be taken! These benefits are supposedly much greater than those to the people who use the railway or the development it might be expected to drive! Ludicrous.

 

Very few of these sorts of project could properly be justified on the basis of the returns on them. They are political decisions - another way of describing your altruism idea - and these leech consultants parasitically live off the backing they give them in order to give them a veneer of economic respectability . And that is why there is so much public money wasted - and that is money which doesn't go to people who actually need it.

[Getintaethem]

The main reason the South Suburban line has never been reopened to passenger trains is lack of timetable space. These trains would eventually have to end up at Haymarket or the Waverley, with the E&G lines running at almost maximum capacity there would be no room for extra trains from the Sub line.

[scots civil war]

and yet the sub line itself practically has tumbleweed rolling along it nowadays....new staions could utilised for a shuttle service along it perhaps ?

 

i fitted a kitchen at balcarres street recently,backing onto the tracks, and on an average day you had trundling thru

 

1 light engine

4 ecs movements

2 freight,the daily steel train and return teeside-ravenscraig(lanarkshire anyway) and aluminium tanks to fort william

 

thats in the space of about 9 hrs

 

vastly underused imo

esp with all the infrastructure for passengers there

 

as for the comment re network rail ,i worked at the early stages of the refurb of haymarket station a few years ago.it was some agency work and i was

refurbing the sash and case windows and offices upstairs in the old building.i worked under network rail there and had the impression it was all a big jolly for the blokes that worked for n.r

proper overtime rates,bosses comin in with big beaming smiles everyday.just didnt seem right to me compared to the building game where you get treated like shit.i was amazed and this was at the height of the recession as well.i was worrying where my next wage was coming from

Edited October 17, 2014 by scots civil war

[davemclaren]

We will see soon how successful the line will be. However, not adventures can be truly judged by a financial cost benefit ratio.

 

As for the sub line, I'm not convinced people would prefer a circuitous route to Waverley over a direct bus service.

[EIEIO]

Will be interesting to see if the actual costs are ever revealed - including all the preparatory works, road moving, road repair works etc.

 

Worth remembering that even on the best case that the leech consultants could come up with - on a 60 year benefit case! - half the money spent is to be wasted with a benefit:cost ratio of 0.5. At least ?150m of public money wasted on official figures. Obviously dwarfed by some of the other wastes of public money - new Forth bridge, Edinburgh trams etc. But still ridiculous.

I remember when the Edinburgh to bathgate line reopened it was expected to have 100k passengers per year. So at first it was single track for part of the route, obviously a gross underestimate of passenger numbers as it was dualled, extended to Glasgow via Airdrie and then electrified. I believe it has 4 trains per hour to Edinburgh on weekdays so while it may or not be profitable its is certainly a popular service and public asset. Obviously, the population of Midlothian and the borders is smaller and more spread out than bathgate/livi etc but the building of this line will result in more development through building more affordable housing than is available nearer Edinburgh.

[jamboinglasgow]

I remember when the Edinburgh to bathgate line reopened it was expected to have 100k passengers per year. So at first it was single track for part of the route, obviously a gross underestimate of passenger numbers as it was dualled, extended to Glasgow via Airdrie and then electrified. I believe it has 4 trains per hour to Edinburgh on weekdays so while it may or not be profitable its is certainly a popular service and public asset. Obviously, the population of Midlothian and the borders is smaller and more spread out than bathgate/livi etc but the building of this line will result in more development through building more affordable housing than is available nearer Edinburgh.

 

Also it will remove some road traffic off the roads to Galashiels. The A7 is full of accident hotspots, so less cars on the road can only help the situation.

[punkrockcroc]

 

Apparently the station at Gorebridge is going to be outside my local boozer...

 

I'm either gonna end up in Tweedbank or Edinburgh after a few too many when it does eventually happen,

Where's your local boozer?

[Seymour M Hersh]

Where's your local boozer?

 

He said it's in Gorebridge.

[Horatio Caine]

Apparently some local residents in the Eskbank area are already complaining about the noise of trains passing and saying that passengers will be able to look right into their windows from the trains!

[punkrockcroc]

 

 

 

He said it's in Gorebridge.

Funny guy

[Everybody loves Baz]

Where's your local boozer?

 

 

It was porters, now bowling club.

 

Is that you Punky ??

[Shapes]

Apparently some local residents in the Eskbank area are already complaining about the noise of trains passing and saying that passengers will be able to look right into their windows from the trains!

 

Where's the station going to be in Eskbank? It's not exactly a big place. Can't think where they would have a station, or is it an old station that they are reopening?

[RosscoC]

 

 

Where's the station going to be in Eskbank? It's not exactly a big place. Can't think where they would have a station, or is it an old station that they are reopening?

 

Think it's behind Tesco.

 

[Shapes]

 

 

Think it's behind Tesco.

 

Seriously? How have I never noticed this being built. Oblivious

[Martin_T]

The Gorebridge Station is on err... Station Road, at the South end of Gorebridge. Newtongrange station is behind the car wash and a few minutes walk from the mining museum.

[Dunks]

By station, you mean platform