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'Hacker' Gary McKinnon refused appeal.


Nelly Terraces

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Nelly Terraces

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8298634.stm

 

Brutal. Looks like the end of the road for this poor geezer, and he's going to be subjected to one of the worst pieces of snide political creepery I can ever recall, the fact that we extradite people suspected of getting up to no good to the Yanks, yet it doesn't work the other way.

 

We are bent over the table and being done up the jacksy sans lubrication by Uncle Sam.

 

This bloke has been set up, and stitched up, so that the government can carry on pretending we mean anything to the US.

 

If anyone thinks McKinnon will receive a fair trial, they're living in cloud cuckoo land, he will be hung out to dry and given a totally out of proportion sentence to his supposed 'crime'.

 

Sickening.

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The UK government should hang their head in shame for letting this happen...but then again, they should hang their heads in shame for a lot of things.

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Auld Reekin'
The UK government should hang their head in shame for letting this happen...but then again, they should hang their heads in shame for a lot of things.

 

Correct: the Blair / Broon "New"* Labour governments have been even more fawning and erchie-licking towards the US than even the previous Conservative governments had been (and that's saying something).

 

B*st*rds.

 

 

 

(*i.e. right-wing)

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Nelly Terraces
I wonder if he'll kop for some of the USA's Al Megrahi anger.

 

No doubt about it. This is the kiss off for upsetting them about letting the Lockerbie bomber go.

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I wonder if he'll kop for some of the USA's Al Megrahi anger.

 

Never thought of it that way. It was already going to be harsh on him but add that onto it its just no right to send him.

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Best to just let him go eh. Guy did nothing wrong?

 

The guy admits he did something wrong. His legal team are arguing he should be tried and punished here not in some mock show trial over there in the "land of the free".

 

We also have an extradition treaty which demands a higher standard of proof for the British government than the American.

 

These two things are the scandal of the situation.

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Outrageous that this so called Labour government are even entertaining this. As soon as this current corrupt lot are out of power the better.

 

Special Relationship? Don't make me laugh. More like special needs.

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Serves him right. About time we took the same proactive approach to hackers in this country.

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The Real Maroonblood
Outrageous that this so called Labour government are even entertaining this. As soon as this current corrupt lot are out of power the better.

 

Special Relationship? Don't make me laugh. More like special needs.

 

The thing is he has actually done the USA a favour showing how flawed their security system is.

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Malinga the Swinga

Afraid he is going to serve time for this in America, and that, given his condition, it won't be a pleasant experience. perhaps if he had blown up a few British army personnel in the old country, Brown, Obama and Labour would do more to ensure he receives a more favcourable outcome.

We hold terrorists and murderers in a benefit state, refusing to extradite them to countries where they come from, because of their human rights, yet won't look after own citizens.

The lack of backbone in the Labour party is a real concern, and this guy is a good example of what we are governed by.

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jambos are go!

He should face trial but this law over extradition is being abused and something must be done. The legal process still has some way to and will go beyond the election. Let's see what the new and likely Tory Government will do.

 

Btw did he find anything out UFOs?

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Carl Spackler
Btw did he find anything out UFOs?

 

Given that they are so desperate to get him over there he must have!

 

Seriously though, in cases like these I always think there must be more than meets the eye. The potential sentence for this guy is ridiculous given the crime and there is no doubt we are far too cosy with the Yanks.

 

Good fences make good neighbours.

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Victor Mancini
The UK government should hang their head in shame for letting this happen...but then again, they should hang their heads in shame for a lot of things.

 

seconded mate they're an embarrasment to the people who voted them into power,

though after the witch(i will openly celebrate her death) and major we were pushed into a corner,once brown is done with and a year of mr cameron in power i will be joining the rioteers as this country's gone to ****

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The thing is he has actually done the USA a favour showing how flawed their security system is.

Agree completely, this guy should be employed by the US defence dept, not hung out to dry , as he surely will be.

 

This whole charade makes a mockery of our justice system. Hope his mothers campaign makes a few people take notice of how badly he has been treated.

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This was a computer geek with aspergers looking for UFOs(and even if he wasnt, it dosnt make what the US are doing right) Not some credit card internet thief.

 

It happend nearly 8 years ago, if any harm had been done we would know about it dont you think? This man is going to get treated worse than someone suspected of blowing up a plane. The Americans should be thankful it was a geek who wanted evidence on UFOs and not China or any number of "renegade states"

 

This is a joke.

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jambos are go!

This is badly drafted and shabby law put together in the wake of 9/11. I received cross party support IIRC. To suggest it was an attempt by Labour to allow the US to destroy civil liberties in the UK is ludicrous. The law was passed under Blair and Brown is much less cosy wiith the US as witnessed by his less than warm welcome last week.

 

I agree this is bad law but spare me anti labour frenzy from those with pre election jitters.

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Sheriff Fatman
This was a computer geek with aspergers looking for UFOs(and even if he wasnt, it dosnt make what the US are doing right) Not some credit card internet thief.

 

It happend nearly 8 years ago, if any harm had been done we would know about it dont you think? This man is going to get treated worse than someone suspected of blowing up a plane. The Americans should be thankful it was a geek who wanted evidence on UFOs and not China or any number of "renegade states"

 

This is a joke.

 

To be fair, someone who can hack into the Pentagon and US military and Government networks is on a different scale of expertise than someone who can phish for credit card details and/or use social engineering to get them. Phishing and social engineering are relatively easy, you just rely on the stupidity of your average Joe Blogs. Plus someone who can get into those networks can cause one hell of a lot more damage than knackering a few people's credit rating temporarily.

 

You would be suprised how many black hat hackers are now the ones providing security for government and business networks, I think that this case was just a bit too high profile for him to be quietly offered a job.

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This is badly drafted and shabby law put together in the wake of 9/11. I received cross party support IIRC. To suggest it was an attempt by Labour to allow the US to destroy civil liberties in the UK is ludicrous. The law was passed under Blair and Brown is much less cosy wiith the US as witnessed by his less than warm welcome last week.

 

I agree this is bad law but spare me anti labour frenzy from those with pre election jitters.

 

Spot on.

 

As for this "He's just a geek with Aspergers". So that makes it OK for him to go hacking round several US Government Depts computer systems. Don't think so. Might as well say it would be alright for him to go rooting about in your house, after all he's not really doing anything wrong.

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shaun.lawson
This is badly drafted and shabby law put together in the wake of 9/11. I received cross party support IIRC. To suggest it was an attempt by Labour to allow the US to destroy civil liberties in the UK is ludicrous. The law was passed under Blair and Brown is much less cosy wiith the US as witnessed by his less than warm welcome last week.

 

I agree this is bad law but spare me anti labour frenzy from those with pre election jitters.

 

Labour aren't interested in civil liberties, JAG. For a considerable period of time, the Tories were even worse - but that's changed in the past four years, as they've started to remember what 'liberalism' - both economic and social - is supposed to mean.

 

Labour are far more authoritarian: largely because their core constituency remains working class voters, who are more likely to live in poor areas, and more likely to be affected by and fearful of crime. So Labour dreamt up the appalling idea of ID cards. Labour passed a Freedom of Information bill that is a complete joke. And in 2005, Labour passed the disgraceful Inquiries Act, which effectively renders any genuine independent inquiry as an impossibility. Because the Act ensures that the government control both the remit of any Inquiry, and the evidence it can request.

 

It makes you proud. :stuart:

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shaun.lawson
Spot on.

 

As for this "He's just a geek with Aspergers". So that makes it OK for him to go hacking round several US Government Depts computer systems. Don't think so. Might as well say it would be alright for him to go rooting about in your house, after all he's not really doing anything wrong.

 

No, it's not alright. But his Aspergers quite obviously has a ****load to do with it - and you think that'll be taken into account by the American courts? My arse it will.

 

Of course, most of those up in arms about this would probably feel quite differently if the boot was on the other foot, and we were trying to extradite someone for the same thing from the US. But then, we can't - which is itself a nonsense. An agreement between two countries can only be bilateral for it to be even-handed and seen to be fair: this is just the same American double standards which they've been practicing for decades.

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Spot on.

 

As for this "He's just a geek with Aspergers". So that makes it OK for him to go hacking round several US Government Depts computer systems. Don't think so. Might as well say it would be alright for him to go rooting about in your house, after all he's not really doing anything wrong.

 

Missing the point, its only to a certain extent what he has done. He didnt launch a nuke, he didnt disable NORAD or orbiting satellites.

 

They are going to take this guy, and put him in a pit for god knows how long. It sets a dangerous president.

 

And as for the hacker thing, this guy used a program that checks for blank and default password settings that anyone with half a brain could obtain. This script kiddy's actions are tantamount to lockpicking with some paper clips.

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Sheriff Fatman
Missing the point, its only to a certain extent what he has done. He didnt launch a nuke, he didnt disable NORAD or orbiting satellites.

 

They are going to take this guy, and put him in a pit for god knows how long. It sets a dangerous president.

 

And as for the hacker thing, this guy used a program that checks for blank and default password settings that anyone with half a brain could obtain. This script kiddy's actions are tantamount to lockpicking with some paper clips.

 

So if someone broke to your house because you used simple locks, or had left a window open, changed the settings on your video player so that it took you weeks to get in fixed at your own expence, then claimed that they only did it because they thought you might have pictures of Nessie on a tape, you wouldn't want them to be punished for doing so?

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He broke the law. Big time.

 

Then the family roll out the 'illness' card. Pish poor excuses imo.

 

Bring out the chair.

 

[ATTACH]2902[/ATTACH]

 

.

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Missing the point, its only to a certain extent what he has done. He didnt launch a nuke, he didnt disable NORAD or orbiting satellites.

 

They are going to take this guy, and put him in a pit for god knows how long. It sets a dangerous president.

 

And as for the hacker thing, this guy used a program that checks for blank and default password settings that anyone with half a brain could obtain. This script kiddy's actions are tantamount to lockpicking with some paper clips.

 

I standby my original assertion that what he has done is wrong. The Aspergers if I understand it, means that he has dificulty making/understanding social interactions. Nowhere does it mention the inability to tell right from wrong. As for his choice of software, not the sort of thing I use on any of my systems (even my home PC). In fact if such software was detected on any of the systems I use, it would result in instant dismissal, probably followed by prosecution.

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shaun.lawson
I standby my original assertion that what he has done is wrong. The Aspergers if I understand it, means that he has dificulty making/understanding social interactions. Nowhere does it mention the inability to tell right from wrong. As for his choice of software, not the sort of thing I use on any of my systems (even my home PC). In fact if such software was detected on any of the systems I use, it would result in instant dismissal, probably followed by prosecution.

 

Quite obviously, this is a knock-on effect of Aspergers in many cases. Because Aspergers sufferers often end up isolated socially; and if you're isolated for too long, you start to lose grip of reality, and of the plot in general.

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1. So if someone broke to your house because you used simple locks, or had left a window open,2. changed the settings on your video player so that it took you weeks to get in fixed at your own expence,3. then claimed that they only did it because they thought you might have pictures of Nessie on a tape, you wouldn't want them to be punished for doing so?

 

1. I think an insurance company might see that as your fault, and who am I to disagree.

 

2. I take it you are referring to the damage done to American defence and NASA computer systems, by removing critical network files etc. Let me tell you that if any vital information can be accessed by checking for blank passwords then there are more troubling questions to be asked. The evidence itself is about as watertight as a sieve, and could well have been fabricated to create grounds for extradition.

 

3. I see little relevance to the overall point. But my reaction would be more of a "erm what the hell?" than a "OMFG 70 YEARS IN JAIL FFS"

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Mr Romanov Saviour of HMFC
if you're isolated for too long, you start to lose grip of reality, and of the plot in general.

 

That explains your tantrum and the big move to Hibs.net. :2thumbsup:

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shaun.lawson
That explains your tantrum and the big move to Hibs.net. :2thumbsup:

 

To be serious: I think it probably does. :o

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jambos are go!
Labour aren't interested in civil liberties, JAG. For a considerable period of time, the Tories were even worse - but that's changed in the past four years, as they've started to remember what 'liberalism' - both economic and social - is supposed to mean.

 

Labour are far more authoritarian: largely because their core constituency remains working class voters, who are more likely to live in poor areas, and more likely to be affected by and fearful of crime. So Labour dreamt up the appalling idea of ID cards. Labour passed a Freedom of Information bill that is a complete joke. And in 2005, Labour passed the disgraceful Inquiries Act, which effectively renders any genuine independent inquiry as an impossibility. Because the Act ensures that the government control both the remit of any Inquiry, and the evidence it can request.

 

It makes you proud. :stuart:

 

Nobody is less interested in civil liberties than the majority of the civil population IMO. A referendum IMO would massively support the huge surveillance measures, ID cards etc to eradicate or combat vastly more imagined than real dangers. Liberties are to be cherished but unfortunately are not compared to creature comforts and other worldly posssessions. And politicians have used irrational fear of as a tool to control the populace throughout time.

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Sheriff Fatman
1. I think a insurance company might see that as your fault, and who am I to disagree. What would an insurance company have to do with whether the person was prosecuted for breaking and entering

 

2. I take it you are referring to the damage done to American defence and NASA computer systems, by removing critical network files etc. Let me tell you that if any vital information can be accessed by checking for blank passwords then there are more troubling questions to be asked. The evidence itself is about as watertight as a sieve, and could well have been fabricated to create grounds for extradition. Yes the security of the part of the network he first hacked sounds a bit lax, but by the whole nature of networks, once you are into one area of the network it is easier to get into other parts, and they may contain sensitive information. I would be interested to see where you get that the evidence is lax from, as none has been given out. That, in fact, is the one part of the case I have sympathy with, there should be not extradition without the basic evidence being shown to a British court

 

3. I see little relevance to the overall point. But my reaction would be more of a "erm what the hell?" than a "OMFG 70 YEARS IN JAIL FFS" The relevance is that it is an analogy between something happening in the real world and something happening in the digital world.

 

The guy committed a crime. He has admitted committing that crime, though he differs as to the details of the crime. He has Aspergers, which should be taken into account at the time of sentencing as a mitigating factor, not as an excuse for committing the crime.

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shaun.lawson
Nobody is less interested in civil liberties than the majority of the civil population IMO. A referendum IMO would massively support the huge surveillance measures, ID cards etc to eradicate or combat vastly more imagined than real dangers. Liberties are to be cherished but unfortunately are not compared to creature comforts and other worldly posssessions. And politicians have used irrational fear of as a tool to control the populace throughout time.

 

100% agree with all of that. I'm grateful for the politicians we do have who are way ahead of the electorate on this sort of thing. The last time I took the British Electoral Survey, I was placed in the most socially liberal 0.5% of the population: very few people are as concerned by these issues as I am.

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He broke the law but if he's that good he should be emloyed by the US or UK to hack into systems for them.

 

Many people with Aspergers were employed at Bletchly Park on decoding the Nazi enigma machines during WW11.

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The guy committed a crime. He has admitted committing that crime, though he differs as to the details of the crime. He has Aspergers, which should be taken into account at the time of sentencing as a mitigating factor, not as an excuse for committing the crime.

 

To clarify my position, I am not condoning his actions. I take issue with the responce.

 

The point about lockpicking with paper clips, I was trying to say that this is very lo-tech.

 

He used someone elses fairly simple program to bypass chronically insecure networks and if it wasnt for him screwing up his time-zone differences(another thing that leads me to the fairly obvious point that he is not a criminal mastermind) he would have got away with it.

 

I mean seriously, my concern that some nutcase/"enemy of the west" could have obtained launch codes for nuclear missiles(might not have attacked us, for refrence see Red Alert 2 opening credits.) The reason I am so annoyed by this is that we seem to be sailing our own citizen down the river in order to protect the United State's vanity and that of their defence system.

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Malinga the Swinga

Much as I don't think he should be tried over there, I would have less objetions if we could extradite on the same terms. We can't, because they won't play by the same rules. Normally i support the US as they get a bad press, but this time, they are wrong and we are being played like a puppy.

Tell them to naff off.

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Sheriff Fatman
To clarify my position, I am not condoning his actions. I take issue with the responce.

 

The point about lockpicking with paper clips, I was trying to say that this is very lo-tech.

 

He used someone elses fairly simple program to bypass chronically insecure networks and if it wasnt for him screwing up his time-zone differences(another thing that leads me to the fairly obvious point that he is not a criminal mastermind).

 

I mean seriously, my concern that some nutcase/"enemy of the west" could have obtained launch codes for nuclear missiles(might not have attacked us, for reference see Red Alert 2 opening credits.) The reason I am so annoyed by this is that we seem to be sailing our own citizen down the river in order to protect the United State's vanity and that of their defence system.

 

It also might have helped if he hadn't used his own e-mail address, but the victim and the perpetrator of a crime both being stupid doesn't mean that no crime took place.

 

As to using fairly simple programs, most hacking programs are actually fairly simple and just rely on dictionary attacks, or simple algorithms to crack simple cryptographic security systems, also most hackers use programs written by someone else.

 

The one good thing to come out of this is that it has emphasised to governments and companies a that they really have to use better security solutions and force users to use complex passwords. Oh, and that when I finish my university course my wages will be higher (I'm studying Computer Security and Forensics).

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Sheriff, im not trying to disagree with you. I feel the only difference in our argument is that I think he should not be extradited for a crime that was 8 years ago and I am finding it hard to see any form of justice in the decision.

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Ibrahim Tall
This was a computer geek with aspergers looking for UFOs(and even if he wasnt, it dosnt make what the US are doing right) Not some credit card internet thief.

 

It happend nearly 8 years ago, if any harm had been done we would know about it dont you think? This man is going to get treated worse than someone suspected of blowing up a plane. The Americans should be thankful it was a geek who wanted evidence on UFOs and not China or any number of "renegade states"

 

This is a joke.

 

"People" in China hack them on a daily basis just the US doesn't have bollocks to actually do anything about it like the do when a weedgie loaners involved.

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The guy has clearly broken the law but I don't think he should be extradited as any treaty should be completely reciprocal. Our extradition arrangements with the US seem very one sided and thus inherently unfair.

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Jam Tarts 1874

There is no evidence whatsover that Aspberger syndrome reduces the individual's ability to distinguish between right and wrong.

 

If I go to the USA and break into the Pentagon, hack into their computers and download material from them onto a USB drive, then I have committed a crime in the USA and would expect to be tried there. This guy has committed criminal acts against USA property which was situated in the USA, why should he not be tried there?

 

The reaction of the majority on this thread is nothing more than the usual "will never get a fair trial from Johnny foreigner" nonesense which is quite embarrassing.

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There is no evidence whatsover that Aspberger syndrome reduces the individual's ability to distinguish between right and wrong.

 

If I go to the USA and break into the Pentagon, hack into their computers and download material from them onto a USB drive, then I have committed a crime in the USA and would expect to be tried there. This guy has committed criminal acts against USA property which was situated in the USA, why should he not be tried there?

 

The reaction of the majority on this thread is nothing more than the usual "will never get a fair trial from Johnny foreigner" nonesense which is quite embarrassing.

 

Because he actually committed the crime whilst in the UK and no American would be extradited here for doing the same. Uncle Sam tends to look after his own.

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"People" in China hack them on a daily basis just the US doesn't have bollocks to actually do anything about it like the do when a weedgie loaners involved.

 

The China and USA hack situation is just a virtual cold war. Testing the defences of the other. What I was meaning is a serious breach of security where the nuclear weapons system of a superpower is compromised.

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The Real Maroonblood
He broke the law. Big time.

 

Then the family roll out the 'illness' card. Pish poor excuses imo.

 

Bring out the chair.

 

[ATTACH]2902[/ATTACH]

 

.

 

You should stick to toilet brushes because to talk a lot of sh yte.:10900:

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The Real Maroonblood
The guy has clearly broken the law but I don't think he should be extradited as any treaty should be completely reciprocal. Our extradition arrangements with the US seem very one sided and thus inherently unfair.

 

It's a pity he doesn't have one arm with a hook on it because that might save him.

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Sheriff Fatman
Sheriff, im not trying to disagree with you. I feel the only difference in our argument is that I think he should not be extradited for a crime that was 8 years ago and I am finding it hard to see any form of justice in the decision.

 

I think my argument is that he should be extradited, but not by the method that is in place at the moment.

 

I am completely against the extradition treaty that is in place, as there is no requirement for the evidence to be shown to the courts in the UK and for them to judge the validity of the case.

 

However he as admitted that he is guilty, so there is a case to answer. His Aspergers is not a defence, it is only a mitigating factor. His family seem to be making his condition the be all and the end all of the case, when it is just a factor that should be taken into account when it comes to sentencing.

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Geoff Kilpatrick

What I don't get is why the Americans aren't offering him a job. If he can hack through all that security, it would be better to have him trying to create it in the first place.

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