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Victorian

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3 minutes ago, joondalupjambo said:

Here is something that I just heard, wonder what you guys think of this strategy.

 

Here at Lundin Golf Club the new, lastest committee have had their hands full with all the ramifications of the last 18 months, the same as all other golf clubs. They put up members fees 100 quid to 680, then we pay 25 more for a locker.  (There is also a joining fee of currently 920 for new members and we have at the moment circa 60 on that list.)  The message was that we had been getting cheap golf for a long time and regardless of Covid that it was time that fees were raised year on year to get to a more realistic level.  Personally I did think in 2020 that 580 was pretty good value for the course we play and now 680 still seems very reasonable.  Interesting that the committee do not indicate what they believe to be a final realistic level in terms of annual fees for our course.

 

Also a summer season visitors round currently is 85 quid mid week and 100 at the weekend.  These are supposedly to change next year to 120 midweek and 150 at the weekend.  The committee believe that we are seen to be too cheap at 85 given our location and standing.  We are sitting at 31st in the top 100 courses in GB and Ireland apparently.  They believe that visitors are missing out on a great round of golf and that by increasing the fees to over 100 that they will view us differently.  Also with overseas visitors back next year, surely then even a slight increase in our usual numbers will generate a large chunk of additional income.

 

So the question is in this time of great economic difficulty in the golf market, especially in Fife where we are located is the tactic to go up in price a good one or is it a risk too far?  Should we not just sit at 85 or 90 just below the hundred mark and go for volume for next year, mind you that annoys the members of course? Or is getting over the hundred mark a good psychological barrier to break to reap more benefits?

 

My view is that I think the committee are perhaps slightly living in past glories where this was a course held in very high regard but this was before all the St Andrew's courses, Kingsbarns etc. were still pipe dreams.  It is a very, very good course but our overseas visitor numbers are relatively low against our home market visitors and so if we do not get enough of the former will the 120 put off the home market?

 

Thoughts?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

3 minutes ago, joondalupjambo said:

Here is something that I just heard, wonder what you guys think of this strategy.

 

Here at Lundin Golf Club the new, lastest committee have had their hands full with all the ramifications of the last 18 months, the same as all other golf clubs. They put up members fees 100 quid to 680, then we pay 25 more for a locker.  (There is also a joining fee of currently 920 for new members and we have at the moment circa 60 on that list.)  The message was that we had been getting cheap golf for a long time and regardless of Covid that it was time that fees were raised year on year to get to a more realistic level.  Personally I did think in 2020 that 580 was pretty good value for the course we play and now 680 still seems very reasonable.  Interesting that the committee do not indicate what they believe to be a final realistic level in terms of annual fees for our course.

 

Also a summer season visitors round currently is 85 quid mid week and 100 at the weekend.  These are supposedly to change next year to 120 midweek and 150 at the weekend.  The committee believe that we are seen to be too cheap at 85 given our location and standing.  We are sitting at 31st in the top 100 courses in GB and Ireland apparently.  They believe that visitors are missing out on a great round of golf and that by increasing the fees to over 100 that they will view us differently.  Also with overseas visitors back next year, surely then even a slight increase in our usual numbers will generate a large chunk of additional income.

 

So the question is in this time of great economic difficulty in the golf market, especially in Fife where we are located is the tactic to go up in price a good one or is it a risk too far?  Should we not just sit at 85 or 90 just below the hundred mark and go for volume for next year, mind you that annoys the members of course? Or is getting over the hundred mark a good psychological barrier to break to reap more benefits?

 

My view is that I think the committee are perhaps slightly living in past glories where this was a course held in very high regard but this was before all the St Andrew's courses, Kingsbarns etc. were still pipe dreams.  It is a very, very good course but our overseas visitor numbers are relatively low against our home market visitors and so if we do not get enough of the former will the 120 put off the home market?

 

Thoughts?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Our fees are limited to an annual increase of max 6% by the committee. Anything above that needs to be ratified at the AGM, which is a good safeguard. The trouble is committees are ever evolving and what this group think is reasonable the ones down the line might not.

I would question why such a massive jump is needed? when was the last time you had an increase. No matter what the level has been an increase of circa 20% seems excessive to me.

On the question of visitors it is a fine balancing act . For links courses you basically have two levels of visitor.

1. US visitors who tend to want to play the top courses,and are not put off by high prices, but also tend to stick to the famous names.

I would certainly say that an increase in prices probably wont affect this market negatively, but the question is what will the level of US customers be like over the next couple of years.

2. UK/European visitors who are more value orientated and you definitely risk losing this group if you up the prices significantly.

I am also at a Links course who has  fairly large visitor numbers, and we increased our prices 2/3 years ago and saw an upturn of US visitors, I would suspect through word of mouth and getting on US travel agent lists. 

This year we have seen during Aug/Sept a big increase in UK visitors who may well in other years have gone to Spain, Portugal etc..

 

There are so many good courses in Fife now, that it will be hard to stay relevant, and I think maybe spending some of the new income on a strong marketing campaign might prove beneficial.

hope that is of some interest/help

MM

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William H. Bonney
7 minutes ago, hmfc_liam06 said:

No way I'd pay £150 for Lundin. I love the course but it's not in that bracket for me.

 

Fortunately I know plenty members 🤣


I paid £35 in November 2017 or 2018. 
That’s the top end of the range for me. To pay over £100, it would have to be something extra special. 

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31 minutes ago, joondalupjambo said:

Here is something that I just heard, wonder what you guys think of this strategy.

 

Here at Lundin Golf Club the new, lastest committee have had their hands full with all the ramifications of the last 18 months, the same as all other golf clubs. They put up members fees 100 quid to 680, then we pay 25 more for a locker.  (There is also a joining fee of currently 920 for new members and we have at the moment circa 60 on that list.)  The message was that we had been getting cheap golf for a long time and regardless of Covid that it was time that fees were raised year on year to get to a more realistic level.  Personally I did think in 2020 that 580 was pretty good value for the course we play and now 680 still seems very reasonable.  Interesting that the committee do not indicate what they believe to be a final realistic level in terms of annual fees for our course.

 

Also a summer season visitors round currently is 85 quid mid week and 100 at the weekend.  These are supposedly to change next year to 120 midweek and 150 at the weekend.  The committee believe that we are seen to be too cheap at 85 given our location and standing.  We are sitting at 31st in the top 100 courses in GB and Ireland apparently.  They believe that visitors are missing out on a great round of golf and that by increasing the fees to over 100 that they will view us differently.  Also with overseas visitors back next year, surely then even a slight increase in our usual numbers will generate a large chunk of additional income.

 

So the question is in this time of great economic difficulty in the golf market, especially in Fife where we are located is the tactic to go up in price a good one or is it a risk too far?  Should we not just sit at 85 or 90 just below the hundred mark and go for volume for next year, mind you that annoys the members of course? Or is getting over the hundred mark a good psychological barrier to break to reap more benefits?

 

My view is that I think the committee are perhaps slightly living in past glories where this was a course held in very high regard but this was before all the St Andrew's courses, Kingsbarns etc. were still pipe dreams.  It is a very, very good course but our overseas visitor numbers are relatively low against our home market visitors and so if we do not get enough of the former will the 120 put off the home market?

 

Thoughts?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Think you might need to check the 31ts ranking

Golf Monthly  top 100 UK courses - not featured

Top 100 Courses -UK LInks - 74th.

 

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joondalupjambo
3 minutes ago, merrymac said:

Think you might need to check the 31ts ranking

Golf Monthly  top 100 UK courses - not featured

Top 100 Courses -UK LInks - 74th.

 

Yeah should have said which list, I have no idea on these things but they obviously used this one.

 

https://www.top100golfcourses.com/golf-courses/britain-ireland/scotland?page=4

 

Lundin 31st on it but it looks like a marketing site of sorts.  Guess stats can be used from anywhere and anything and shaped how you want to present them.  Think it is the Marketing guy at the club or the Pro who will be citing this one.

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joondalupjambo
7 minutes ago, Furious Styles said:


I paid £35 in November 2017 or 2018. 
That’s the top end of the range for me. To pay over £100, it would have to be something extra special. 

Yeah think they had a winter rate back then which was pretty low, may even have been post 2.00pm, not sure.  They will have one of these again this winter I am sure but what it will be who knows.  It will need to be competitive that is for sure.

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1 minute ago, joondalupjambo said:

Yeah should have said which list, I have no idea on these things but they obviously used this one.

 

https://www.top100golfcourses.com/golf-courses/britain-ireland/scotland?page=4

 

Lundin 31st on it but it looks like a marketing site of sorts.  Guess stats can be used from anywhere and anything and shaped how you want to present them.  Think it is the Marketing guy at the club or the Pro who will be citing this one.

Don't want to be pedantic but that's Scotland not UK

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William H. Bonney
1 minute ago, joondalupjambo said:

Yeah think they had a winter rate back then which was pretty low, may even have been post 2.00pm, not sure.  They will have one of these again this winter I am sure but what it will be who knows.  It will need to be competitive that is for sure.


Beautiful course. Only one hole I didn’t like. Cracking experience. 

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joondalupjambo
17 minutes ago, merrymac said:

 

Our fees are limited to an annual increase of max 6% by the committee. Anything above that needs to be ratified at the AGM, which is a good safeguard. The trouble is committees are ever evolving and what this group think is reasonable the ones down the line might not.

I would question why such a massive jump is needed? when was the last time you had an increase. No matter what the level has been an increase of circa 20% seems excessive to me.

On the question of visitors it is a fine balancing act . For links courses you basically have two levels of visitor.

1. US visitors who tend to want to play the top courses,and are not put off by high prices, but also tend to stick to the famous names.

I would certainly say that an increase in prices probably wont affect this market negatively, but the question is what will the level of US customers be like over the next couple of years.

2. UK/European visitors who are more value orientated and you definitely risk losing this group if you up the prices significantly.

I am also at a Links course who has  fairly large visitor numbers, and we increased our prices 2/3 years ago and saw an upturn of US visitors, I would suspect through word of mouth and getting on US travel agent lists. 

This year we have seen during Aug/Sept a big increase in UK visitors who may well in other years have gone to Spain, Portugal etc..

 

There are so many good courses in Fife now, that it will be hard to stay relevant, and I think maybe spending some of the new income on a strong marketing campaign might prove beneficial.

hope that is of some interest/help

MM

Thanks MM.

 

We have been low fees for years now, I think we have only gone up circa 3% most years and one year it was a nil increase.  It too an age to get to the 580 and so even going to 680 in one jump most members saw it coming.  Then of course there was Covid with no visitors so the rationale was a decade of more of really cheap golf where previous committees maybe should have gone for larger % increases, then no visitors for virtually a year and the new lot said enough is enough.

 

Yep who knows how many Yanks will appear next summer, that is a calculation nobody can make accurately I would have thought, so looking to count too many of them at 150 could be a risk.

 

The UK/ Euro market in my view will be a crap shoot next year with loads of the UK ones going overseas or looking for quality at lower green fees because they will know that every club locally is operating in a very tight market.  150 might just be a stretch.

 

I am sure this new committee will have a marketing plan to go along with these new visitor rates so it will be interesting to see how that works in terms of producing numbers.  My fear is of course the new strategy does not work and then members fees go up a big whack to compensate the loss of income.  In saying all that I think if this was all seen as a new strategy then it may need to be voted through by members.  Maybe not though because it is simply a rise in green fees which the committee can do on their own.

 

Unless, according to the constitution you are in the club house on the night of the vote you cannot vote.  We have virtually nobody turning up at these meetings now, circa 60 out of 900 members, apathy, perhaps but in this day and age that constitution is outdated and remote member voting has to put in place.  However I guess it suits any committee to have less in attendance because there are less to convince and you can pack the room with 31 of your boys anyway.

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joondalupjambo
15 minutes ago, merrymac said:

Don't want to be pedantic but that's Scotland not UK

Sorry yeah it has a menu of Britain and Ireland but when you click on that and select Scotland you are right, 31st overall.  I just saw Britain and Ireland and quoted that, my bad 😀.

 

https://www.top100golfcourses.com/golf-courses/britain-ireland

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joondalupjambo
19 minutes ago, Furious Styles said:


Beautiful course. Only one hole I didn’t like. Cracking experience. 

The 11th by chance?

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William H. Bonney
1 minute ago, joondalupjambo said:

The 11th by chance?


Up the hill? If so, felt it didn’t fit with the rest of the course. 
Still one of my favourite courses I’ve played though. 

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6 minutes ago, joondalupjambo said:

Sorry yeah it has a menu of Britain and Ireland but when you click on that and select Scotland you are right, 31st overall.  I just saw Britain and Ireland and quoted that, my bad 😀.

 

https://www.top100golfcourses.com/golf-courses/britain-ireland

No worries there are so many options to choose from on that site

You are 74th best links in UK though, top 100 is decent considering the opposition:thumbsup:

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My membership was £630 this year and I binned it. I joined Ullapool for £160 or so and play it enough to get my monies worth. I get 1 or 2 rounds a week if I’m lucky.

 

I play opens through the season that cost me at most £25, most are £15/20. 
 

ive played , Golspie x3,Tain x2 strathpeffer x3, strathlene, Cullen , Muir of ord x3, kings, invergordon  and Kingussie . Got signed on at Royal Dornoch as well.

 

won around £500 in vouchers this year which is a bonus! I don’t think I’d go back to paying a hefty membership now and I think I’d get bored of playing the same place every week trying to justify my fees. 

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joondalupjambo
16 minutes ago, Furious Styles said:


Up the hill? If so, felt it didn’t fit with the rest of the course. 
Still one of my favourite courses I’ve played though. 

The 12th.   Usually 11 is cited because it is just a long, flat par 4.  Glad you liked the course.

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Just shows you how expensive Edinburgh clubs are in comparison.  There's quite a difference.

 

I think the £680 for Lundin Links is still very good value but when I saw it went up £100 with 60 waiting on the list and ready to shell out a grand as a joining fee,  my first thought was that the club are keen to get that waiting list moving at pace to backfill leaving members.  When viewed practically,  who can blame them?

 

Sticking the visitor fees up when they already look a bit pricey is madness.  Volume of sales is king when it comes to selling a service with no discernible unit cost.  It's virtually all margin so chase the sales.  If it annoys the members... there's £60,000 on the waiting list.

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Samuel Camazzola
5 hours ago, joondalupjambo said:

Here is something that I just heard, wonder what you guys think of this strategy.

 

Here at Lundin Golf Club the new, lastest committee have had their hands full with all the ramifications of the last 18 months, the same as all other golf clubs. They put up members fees 100 quid to 680, then we pay 25 more for a locker.  (There is also a joining fee of currently 920 for new members and we have at the moment circa 60 on that list.)  The message was that we had been getting cheap golf for a long time and regardless of Covid that it was time that fees were raised year on year to get to a more realistic level.  Personally I did think in 2020 that 580 was pretty good value for the course we play and now 680 still seems very reasonable.  Interesting that the committee do not indicate what they believe to be a final realistic level in terms of annual fees for our course.

 

Also a summer season visitors round currently is 85 quid mid week and 100 at the weekend.  These are supposedly to change next year to 120 midweek and 150 at the weekend.  The committee believe that we are seen to be too cheap at 85 given our location and standing.  We are sitting at 31st in the top 100 courses in GB and Ireland apparently.  They believe that visitors are missing out on a great round of golf and that by increasing the fees to over 100 that they will view us differently.  Also with overseas visitors back next year, surely then even a slight increase in our usual numbers will generate a large chunk of additional income.

 

So the question is in this time of great economic difficulty in the golf market, especially in Fife where we are located is the tactic to go up in price a good one or is it a risk too far?  Should we not just sit at 85 or 90 just below the hundred mark and go for volume for next year, mind you that annoys the members of course? Or is getting over the hundred mark a good psychological barrier to break to reap more benefits?

 

My view is that I think the committee are perhaps slightly living in past glories where this was a course held in very high regard but this was before all the St Andrew's courses, Kingsbarns etc. were still pipe dreams.  It is a very, very good course but our overseas visitor numbers are relatively low against our home market visitors and so if we do not get enough of the former will the 120 put off the home market?

 

Thoughts?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Although there is a jump in the annual fees, for a regular player it's still a decent value. Is the catering outsourced or ar takings going towards the club? If within the club, giving the members a bit of credit back to spend would have been a better approach. 

 

I liked the course (although 12 and 13 are a touch average). I played it for £30 but would go nowhere near £100+ for a visitor fee. £85 is also too high for what's on offer. I can take a drive 10 minutes away and play Dumbarnie Links for less which will soon find itself on the list of top UK courses. 

 

Like you say, the committee are maybe living on past glories and trying to give the club a profile which is a little higher than others see it. 

 

For the joining fee on offer, this would be a deterrent for most looking to join. I could put my name down for a Links ticket and join one of the St Andrews clubs for a fraction of the price - and this is paying the non resident rate (with expectations to be granted a ticket within four years on last projections). 

 

 

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Samuel Camazzola
7 hours ago, I P Knightley said:

I discovered this place on a recent break in Fife. I was worried that the price indicated it would be a farmer's field with clever photography on the website, especially give the green fees for all of its near neighbours. However, I was very pleasantly surprised at the quality of the course. The rough was more punishing than I'd have liked :o but I'm not sure that's entirely the greenkeeper's fault. What surprised me was the number of pitch marks on some greens that folk just hadn't had a go at repairing; I must have tried to repair about 3 for every one of my own. I wondered whether it was a Fifer thing - that they're used to playing on links so less accustomed to making the marks - but had a chat with the greenkeeper who said that it's mainly played by members who ought to know better. I'd definitely go back, though.

It's an enjoyable course with some interesting greens. Great value. Rumours have been circulating for a while about enhancements being to the course from heavy investment but the only concrete stuff I've heard are for a few holiday let's being built on the land adjacent to the main drive. 

 

The pitch mark issue is rife in lots of places and members are the main culprits. This was highlighted last year due to the restrictions on visitors. Longniddry, Liberton, Fairmont, Swanston, Duddingston... the problem is always visible. One of the few places which didn't seem to suffer was Lothianburn where the greens were possibly the best in the Edinburgh area. 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Victorian said:

Just shows you how expensive Edinburgh clubs are in comparison.  There's quite a difference.

 

I think the £680 for Lundin Links is still very good value but when I saw it went up £100 with 60 waiting on the list and ready to shell out a grand as a joining fee,  my first thought was that the club are keen to get that waiting list moving at pace to backfill leaving members.  When viewed practically,  who can blame them?

 

Sticking the visitor fees up when they already look a bit pricey is madness.  Volume of sales is king when it comes to selling a service with no discernible unit cost.  It's virtually all margin so chase the sales.  If it annoys the members... there's £60,000 on the waiting list.

These figures make me weep. Take your £680 and add a grand to arrive at the subs that I was paying at my club in West London 10 years ago. I gave up membership in 2012 and can't wait until I retire and head back north.

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joondalupjambo
9 hours ago, Samuel Camazzola said:

Although there is a jump in the annual fees, for a regular player it's still a decent value. Is the catering outsourced or ar takings going towards the club? If within the club, giving the members a bit of credit back to spend would have been a better approach. 

 

I liked the course (although 12 and 13 are a touch average). I played it for £30 but would go nowhere near £100+ for a visitor fee. £85 is also too high for what's on offer. I can take a drive 10 minutes away and play Dumbarnie Links for less which will soon find itself on the list of top UK courses. 

 

Like you say, the committee are maybe living on past glories and trying to give the club a profile which is a little higher than others see it. 

 

For the joining fee on offer, this would be a deterrent for most looking to join. I could put my name down for a Links ticket and join one of the St Andrews clubs for a fraction of the price - and this is paying the non resident rate (with expectations to be granted a ticket within four years on last projections). 

 

 

 

Yeah I agree still good value especially if, like the big chunk of the membership who are retired you can play 3 times a week at least.  The catering is another cracker.  To attract good quality stewards, that is the rationale that has been promoted by previous commitee's anyway Lundie offer a flat for them to live in as part of the deal.  It is located in the clubhouse above the lounge area.  The stewards I think pay for the utilities but get it rent free or for a minimal fee, 100 pound a month rings a bell.  I would need to double check but it certainly is a big bonus, a gift some would say.  Then the stewards retain the food profit and the coffee machine takings and the club gets the booze / bar profits.  This structured deal has always been a major bug bear to a lot of members but I think change could be afoot with this new committee.  And to the honest the last couple of stewards have been ok but not great so why that type of deal.  I think again this harks back to the day when the club had a higher profile and members dinners and busy clubhouses were more the norm.

 

It is interesting the waiting list has always been very healthy and the joining fee does not seem to deter people.   The club has constantly had 50 to 60 on the list for years now.  It is not that long ago that you had a three waiting period to join, in fact some of these on the list will wait two at the moment.  I think when you look at the profile of the new members they are either quite well off, a bit older and want to play in retirement or are coming from other Fife courses that are not as good and they see Lundie as a value option.  It is ironic that because of that members who leave are not missed.  Again this ties into the view of what a lot of local people to the area see Lundie as, a haven for the money boys.  It is not really, a bit of a perception albeit there is a bit of dough in the membership for sure.

 

I think subs and joining fees are an area where the committee are comfortable in the short to medium term and we are now trying to build on that and jump on the "we are worth 120 quid midweek" wagon.  Time will tell.  My question would be if you set new visitors fees at 120 midweek and 150 weekends with a annual budget forecast of say 250,000 what happens if we do not reach that target?  Do the members need to then pick up the shortfall in yet higher subs?

 

Like you, and I have raised this why play Lundie at the moment for 85 quid when folk can drive a further 10 minutes and play Dumbarnie for 95 Fife price or circa 120 Scotland wide price?  Remember it is next year that the 120 and 150 fee is being talked about for Lundie and the talk for next year at Dumbarnie is that their rates will go up to circa 240 because overseas folk will be here and they maybe able to dump the local market rates.  So next year if the Lundie committee put up our fess we could be half of Dumbarnie's.  Is Dumbarnie twice as good as Lundie?  That is another debate:huh:

 

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Interesting first point re catering @joondalupjambo.

 

One issue we've faced this year is that the bar/restaurant is open to the public. There's not many places to go locally for a meal so the golf club is hugely popular. This in turn has annoyed a select few within the club, who believe the club should be members or members/guests only. The irony being, members barely use the place, with the moaners using it even less so. I'd imagine this is an issue at many golf clubs but in my opinion clubs need to diversify and generate income in all areas of the club.

 

I visited a club a few weeks back, their clubhouse is very much golfers only. We were the only people in the clubhouse before or after our round. The bar staff seemed very frustrated by it all when we spoke with them.

 

And don't get me started on the no hats in clubhouse rules 😂

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joondalupjambo
37 minutes ago, hmfc_liam06 said:

Interesting first point re catering @joondalupjambo.

 

One issue we've faced this year is that the bar/restaurant is open to the public. There's not many places to go locally for a meal so the golf club is hugely popular. This in turn has annoyed a select few within the club, who believe the club should be members or members/guests only. The irony being, members barely use the place, with the moaners using it even less so. I'd imagine this is an issue at many golf clubs but in my opinion clubs need to diversify and generate income in all areas of the club.

 

I visited a club a few weeks back, their clubhouse is very much golfers only. We were the only people in the clubhouse before or after our round. The bar staff seemed very frustrated by it all when we spoke with them.

 

And don't get me started on the no hats in clubhouse rules 😂

Same issues here.  Lot's of members moaning about possible opening up of clubhouse to non members for food and bar area but those that moaning never in the place.  Typical.  Would need a vote here to change that so cannot ever seeing it getting passed.  My half way house suggestion was to use the new outside tables in the front of the club house and then nick a bit of the putting area edge near the practice net and put more tables there.  Then use them all for passers by who want to eat and have a beer looking over the Forth.  That way not in clubhouse and a good income stream assuming we can wrestle the food takings away from it's current state of affairs.  It will remain to be seen if that idea, which was ever put into a recent survey emerges, probably just get ignored.

 

As an aside our clubhouse is dead as a do do and very poorly used by members.  Lot's of reasons but suspect that this is just a sign of the times as you say and I am with you, diversify or die for many.

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Not sure what the deal is at Lundie, but most clubs rent out to the caterers these days (some caterering & bar)

This way, the club have a set monthly income. It is then up to the stewards to make it as busy as possible as all profits go to them.

this is where your meebers start to complain about non-members using it.

 

 

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I think clubs have to be realistic these days. Most clubs do not generate anything like the levels of customers (from membership) required to sustain a catering facility of the size we all have.

We changed about ten years ago from employed caterers to a franchise set up where the club takes a percentage of the caterers income,and he is responsible for generating the business within agreed parameters. This turned a substantial annual loss for the club, into a very good income stream, with much less risk.

Clubs need to wake up and move forward, we now have weddings, funerals, rotary club meetings, bridge club meetings etc etc.

The facility needs to be used, and members have to wake up to this fact, or be prepared to pay much more substantial fees to have their exclusivity. When this was put to our membership, there was little objection to the plans, and members have gradually become more accepting of the changes,but there will always be a few who grumble for no apparent reason, just against change.

I was at Glenbervie recently, and they has franchised part of their clubhouse to an Italian restaurant, and it was absolutely heaving, which was actually nice to see.Better than listening to the clock ticking that you find in some.

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We're the same @merrymac, we franchise ours out, although they pay us rent rather than a slice of the income.

 

I'd rather see our clubhouse full of people enjoying a meal or a few pints than it lying empty waiting on some member having a cup of tea.

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Samuel Camazzola
2 hours ago, joondalupjambo said:

Same issues here.  Lot's of members moaning about possible opening up of clubhouse to non members for food and bar area but those that moaning never in the place.  Typical.  Would need a vote here to change that so cannot ever seeing it getting passed.  My half way house suggestion was to use the new outside tables in the front of the club house and then nick a bit of the putting area edge near the practice net and put more tables there.  Then use them all for passers by who want to eat and have a beer looking over the Forth.  That way not in clubhouse and a good income stream assuming we can wrestle the food takings away from it's current state of affairs.  It will remain to be seen if that idea, which was ever put into a recent survey emerges, probably just get ignored.

 

As an aside our clubhouse is dead as a do do and very poorly used by members.  Lot's of reasons but suspect that this is just a sign of the times as you say and I am with you, diversify or die for many.

 

1 hour ago, hmfc_liam06 said:

We're the same @merrymac, we franchise ours out, although they pay us rent rather than a slice of the income.

 

I'd rather see our clubhouse full of people enjoying a meal or a few pints than it lying empty waiting on some member having a cup of tea.

Do either of your clubs do a house membership? It has been an option I've seen a a few clubs but think I'd still prefer clubs to open up as a public bar/restaurant. Swanston became open to the public when the new clubhouse was built about 12 years ago. Duddingston and Prestonfield voted against it which resulted in members having to pay a levy for their refurbishments. 

 

Liberton started to rent out some of their clubhouse space to businesses such as photographers, beauticians etc and gained a return for the rooms which were not used much. 

 

On the Dumbarnie front, the Fife and Scottish rates are now only available over a three week window. I expect this to continue next year for any unused times to get filled. 

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1 hour ago, Samuel Camazzola said:

 

Do either of your clubs do a house membership? It has been an option I've seen a a few clubs but think I'd still prefer clubs to open up as a public bar/restaurant. Swanston became open to the public when the new clubhouse was built about 12 years ago. Duddingston and Prestonfield voted against it which resulted in members having to pay a levy for their refurbishments. 

 

Liberton started to rent out some of their clubhouse space to businesses such as photographers, beauticians etc and gained a return for the rooms which were not used much. 

 

On the Dumbarnie front, the Fife and Scottish rates are now only available over a three week window. I expect this to continue next year for any unused times to get filled. 

 

I think we used to but house membership is another out of date practice, which again just puts up a barrier for the catering franchise. 

 

Is an average punter going to pay an additional tenner just to eat at the golf club or go elsewhere for dinner? I'd head elsewhere. 

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Samuel Camazzola
Just now, hmfc_liam06 said:

 

I think we used to but house membership is another out of date practice, which again just puts up a barrier for the catering franchise. 

 

Is an average punter going to pay an additional tenner just to eat at the golf club or go elsewhere for dinner? I'd head elsewhere. 

I agree. During the lockdowns, my club operated a takeaway service which was good (technically still in operation too). It proved to be popular with the dog walkers and hoards of sledgers who appeared during the snowy spell we had. 

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joondalupjambo
6 hours ago, Samuel Camazzola said:

 

Do either of your clubs do a house membership? 

On the Dumbarnie front, the Fife and Scottish rates are now only available over a three week window. I expect this to continue next year for any unused times to get filled. 

Lundie has social membership for members who have given up playing due to age, not currently available on health grounds though but that is getting looked at.  120 per year to sit in an empty clubhouse so very few take it up.  We have an award winning pub nearby and they use that to see their mates.  Better beer and busy so a good option for them.

 

We have a member at Lundie on the board or acting as an advisor cannot recall which but he was saying the the dilemma is Dumbarnie moving to 250 and then offering too many cheap tee times will not go down well so they are looking at times of the year for local pricing as well as the option of empty slots very early in the morning or late in the evening.  The time of year is currently favourite he thinks but who knows.  Guess that makes some sense and at least gives folk a chance of playing it.

 

 

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Samuel Camazzola
5 minutes ago, joondalupjambo said:

Lundie has social membership for members who have given up playing due to age, not currently available on health grounds though but that is getting looked at.  120 per year to sit in an empty clubhouse so very few take it up.  We have an award winning pub nearby and they use that to see their mates.  Better beer and busy so a good option for them.

 

We have a member at Lundie on the board or acting as an advisor cannot recall which but he was saying the the dilemma is Dumbarnie moving to 250 and then offering too many cheap tee times will not go down well so they are looking at times of the year for local pricing as well as the option of empty slots very early in the morning or late in the evening.  The time of year is currently favourite he thinks but who knows.  Guess that makes some sense and at least gives folk a chance of playing it.

 

 

If access for travellers begins to ease, I'd anticipate that most tee times will be snapped up at premium price. Reduced rate slots will only likely be available at start and end of season, twilight times and if there are any cancellations. 

 

Ladies Scottish Open is confirmed there for the next few years and talks of other pro events going there will only add to the promotion. They are managed by a big hitter in the US (OB Sports) who will have various plans too. For any Scottish residents who fancy playing, now is the time to sample it. 

 

I know someone who is caddying there and it seems that clientele is becoming visibly varied in terms of how far and wide folk are travelling. 

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joondalupjambo
1 minute ago, Samuel Camazzola said:

If access for travellers begins to ease, I'd anticipate that most tee times will be snapped up at premium price. Reduced rate slots will only likely be available at start and end of season, twilight times and if there are any cancellations. 

 

Ladies Scottish Open is confirmed there for the next few years and talks of other pro events going there will only add to the promotion. They are managed by a big hitter in the US (OB Sports) who will have various plans too. For any Scottish residents who fancy playing, now is the time to sample it. 

 

I know someone who is caddying there and it seems that clientele is becoming visibly varied in terms of how far and wide folk are travelling. 

Agree. I have played it twice and may go for a third game soon.  Would hate not to have played it, great course.  Once it goes to the new rates I am out.  I did the same at Kingsbarns when it first opened, played it half a dozen times in the first two years when they had a Scottish four-ball rate.  Looked longingly at it ever since, we walk regularly on the stretch of the Fife Coastal path that runs beside it and it always looks fantastic.  Watching some of the rich Yanks hack round it gets my goat though😀

 

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Samuel Camazzola
57 minutes ago, joondalupjambo said:

Agree. I have played it twice and may go for a third game soon.  Would hate not to have played it, great course.  Once it goes to the new rates I am out.  I did the same at Kingsbarns when it first opened, played it half a dozen times in the first two years when they had a Scottish four-ball rate.  Looked longingly at it ever since, we walk regularly on the stretch of the Fife Coastal path that runs beside it and it always looks fantastic.  Watching some of the rich Yanks hack round it gets my goat though😀

 

The season has been extended into mid November with the shoulder season rate being introduced around 18th October. You should get a tee time for £76ish (as long there isn't an influx of late golf tourists). 

 

There had been chatter of Kingsbarns introducing a Scottish rate again but can't see it happening. 

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Chaps, I had a lesson the other night there and the changes that I have been asked to make seem quite extreme to me and I’m not sure I have full confidence in the changes taught. 
 

I definitely get caught on the inside and pull the club behind me on the back swing on occasions and this sometimes means I route the club over the top. Not great but I have worked on keeping club in front and hinging the wrists up. When I had the lesson dropped into old habits and feel like I spent an hour fixing something I already thought I had fixed. 
 

Anyway, I was hitting the ball out of the toe a bit and seemed to have fixed this by standing taller and a bit closer. 
 

Anyone else had a lesson before and come away without that warm confident feeling that what you’ve been asked to do is right for your swing?

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After a shit few weeks I've had a late season recovery and a couple of cuts in a row.  Now a full set of best 8 scores all during this season's 16 medals played.  One more left if this season's weather luck holds out for one last week.  

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Samuel Camazzola
3 hours ago, Victorian said:

After a shit few weeks I've had a late season recovery and a couple of cuts in a row.  Now a full set of best 8 scores all during this season's 16 medals played.  One more left if this season's weather luck holds out for one last week.  

Not fancy putting in general play scores while the weather conditions are 'fairer' and before the autumn maintenance kicks in? 

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50 minutes ago, Samuel Camazzola said:

Not fancy putting in general play scores while the weather conditions are 'fairer' and before the autumn maintenance kicks in? 

 

Nah.  I play enough medals as it is.  Usually 12-16 or so a year.  That's more than enough to maintain a set of scores and come out at the right h/c.  

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47 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

Nah.  I play enough medals as it is.  Usually 12-16 or so a year.  That's more than enough to maintain a set of scores and come out at the right h/c.  

 

I'm 12 competitions a month :lol:

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2 hours ago, hmfc_liam06 said:

 

I'm 12 competitions a month :lol:

The season 2019 i managed 42, ended up 21 home and 21 away.

Last two seasons have missed about 9 months of golf due health.

Will be going for big style next season as i think my mates have done 30+ each.

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22 hours ago, dicksojo said:

Chaps, I had a lesson the other night there and the changes that I have been asked to make seem quite extreme to me and I’m not sure I have full confidence in the changes taught. 
 

I definitely get caught on the inside and pull the club behind me on the back swing on occasions and this sometimes means I route the club over the top. Not great but I have worked on keeping club in front and hinging the wrists up. When I had the lesson dropped into old habits and feel like I spent an hour fixing something I already thought I had fixed. 
 

Anyway, I was hitting the ball out of the toe a bit and seemed to have fixed this by standing taller and a bit closer. 
 

Anyone else had a lesson before and come away without that warm confident feeling that what you’ve been asked to do is right for your swing?

I started lessons this time last year, best advice I’d give you is just stick with it. I had pretty much everything changed and was duck hooking, shanking and hitting highs of 25 points for a few months .

 

I have really noticed a difference in my game this past 3/4 months and I can’t wait for next season. 

Edited by Irufushi
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3 hours ago, Stu_HMFC said:

Decided against going down the coast next Monday and we are going to head up and play Drumoig . 

 

Enjoy the turn 👀

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joondalupjambo

Golf going backwards now that autumn and worsening weather has arrived.  I have gone from 77 to 82 range to 88 to 90's.  To be expected when you try to hit, into a full on westerly a well connected 7 iron from 100 yards out and it gets to 5 yards short of the green :huh:  Anyway all my eight best scores were in the 77 to 80 range and then I had an n/r and go up 0.3 to 8.0 WHS.  Then still all in 77 to 80 range and I then hit a 90 and stay at 8.0 so is an n/r still a increase regardless under this new system?  I just cannot work this out.

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1 hour ago, joondalupjambo said:

Golf going backwards now that autumn and worsening weather has arrived.  I have gone from 77 to 82 range to 88 to 90's.  To be expected when you try to hit, into a full on westerly a well connected 7 iron from 100 yards out and it gets to 5 yards short of the green :huh:  Anyway all my eight best scores were in the 77 to 80 range and then I had an n/r and go up 0.3 to 8.0 WHS.  Then still all in 77 to 80 range and I then hit a 90 and stay at 8.0 so is an n/r still a increase regardless under this new system?  I just cannot work this out.

 

Everyone has their last 20 scores.  Within that,  there are the best 8 of 20.  The H.I. is based on the average nett differential score of the best 8.  You go up when one of the best 8 drops out of the 20 and is replaced with an inferior nett differential.  You come down when you have a score that's better than something in your best 8.

 

An example would be if you have a nett differential that improves on a best 8 counting score by 4 shots,  that in turn improves the average score by 4 shots divided by 8 = 0.5 of a cut.  Likewise up the way.

Edited by Victorian
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That's me finished for the season.  All of my best 8 counters are from this season.  Next season will be a soft start with 3 'free hits' before the counters start to get to the bottom of the 20.  I don't have very close back up scores in any numbers to the best 8 but on the 'positive' side,  I have nothing particularly good in the 20 that will drop out.  That in itself is a bit of protection and stability.  The net result should be quite a stable handicap throughout next year.

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joondalupjambo
21 hours ago, Victorian said:

 

Everyone has their last 20 scores.  Within that,  there are the best 8 of 20.  The H.I. is based on the average nett differential score of the best 8.  You go up when one of the best 8 drops out of the 20 and is replaced with an inferior nett differential.  You come down when you have a score that's better than something in your best 8.

 

An example would be if you have a nett differential that improves on a best 8 counting score by 4 shots,  that in turn improves the average score by 4 shots divided by 8 = 0.5 of a cut.  Likewise up the way.

Found it I think.  My eight best scores are currently 63.8/8 = 8.0 but to get there from 7.7 I had a 8.5 nett diff replaced by a 11.1 so 63.8-11.1 = 52.7 + 8.5 = 61.2/8 = 7.65 rounded up for my 7.7 for where I was before my n/r then 61.2 - 8.5 + 11.1 = 63.8/8 = 7.97 rounded up to 8.0 to where I am now.

 

Point of me highlighting all this is how the feck do folk that find figures and stats hard manage to understand all this new WHS?  Luckily I have two O Grades, one in plasticine design which help😀😃 😀😃

Edited by joondalupjambo
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19 minutes ago, joondalupjambo said:

Found it I think.  My eight best scores are currently 63.8/8 = 8.0 but to get there from 7.7 I had a 8.5 nett diff replaced by a 11.1 so 63.8-11.1 = 52.7 + 8.5 = 61.2/8 = 7.65 rounded up for my 7.7 for where I was before my n/r then 61.2 - 8.5 + 11.1 = 63.8/8 = 7.97 rounded up to 8.0 to where I am now.

 

Point of me highlighting all this is how the feck do folk that find figures and stats hard manage to understand all this new WHS?  Luckily I have two O Grades, one in plasticine design which help😀😃 😀😃

 

It's the nett differential that matters.  The handicap is the average of the best 8 nett differential scores of 20.  Get the Scottish Golf app and it shows you your list of scores and highlights your best 8 counters.  Any handicap adjustment will be approximately 1/8th of the difference between a new counting score and the one it replaces.  Always try to be aware of the score sitting at the bottom of the 20.  If it's a counter then it either be replaced by your next score or the one currently 9th best.  If it isn't a counter then you can only come down or stay the same with a new score.  If your new score beats the one in 8th place then you come down.

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joondalupjambo
14 hours ago, Victorian said:

 

It's the nett differential that matters.  The handicap is the average of the best 8 nett differential scores of 20.  Get the Scottish Golf app and it shows you your list of scores and highlights your best 8 counters.  Any handicap adjustment will be approximately 1/8th of the difference between a new counting score and the one it replaces.  Always try to be aware of the score sitting at the bottom of the 20.  If it's a counter then it either be replaced by your next score or the one currently 9th best.  If it isn't a counter then you can only come down or stay the same with a new score.  If your new score beats the one in 8th place then you come down.

Yep that is where I got / get all my data from, the SGU app.  Your point about being aware of the score sitting at the bottom of the 20 is a good one and that was what caught me out this time round.

 

We play winter golf so will keep putting in circa two general play scores weekly, weather permitting.  This way the guys I play with think we should end up with a summer and winter handicap because of the different conditions.  This will be th first full year on the new WHS though so guess time will tell.  

 

Thanks for your comments.

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