"innocent" man dies after police assault

[BlackJAC?]

Although unlikely - what if the guy has a gun in his pocket on the blind side of the video clip and the policeman thinks he is going to draw it.

Who knows? not me.

How many people think they could sit indepnedantly on a jury if they were called to court to judge on it?

There is no doubt the video clip looks very bad, but it is only one piece of a large jigsaw, we don't know what how the other pieces fit together.

 

What if the police had a fully armed Apache helicopter ready to fire in to the demonstrators, what if the guy had a home made nuke in his back pocket, what if his wife was really a CIA agent working undercover for the KGB or what if your statement made any sense whatsoever?

 

No one can say with 100% certainty that none of these scenarios are true or not. But lets be honest, common sense tells us they are nothing more than a fable.

[djf]

Pretty interesting opinion piece in the Herald today

 

http://www.sundayherald.com/oped/opinion/display.var.2501417.0.0.php

[felix]

Pretty interesting opinion piece in the Herald today

http://www.sundayherald.com/oped/opi...501417.0.0.php

 

Good post. Confirms post mortem report that Mr Tomlinson died of heart attack and didn't have bruising or cuts. Second post mortem will likely confirm, therefore it seems he died of natural causes (just like his 46 year old brother) much to the dimay of the APAB brigade, I'm sure.

 

Who's up to embarrass themselves next then?

 

Carry on, you're doing fine.

[BlackJAC?]

Some papers reporting the policeman that assaulted this guy has himself had a Heart attack. Albeit a mild one. pretty ****ed up if you ask me.

[djf]

Good post. Confirms post mortem report that Mr Tomlinson died of heart attack and didn't have bruising or cuts. Second post mortem will likely confirm, therefore it seems he died of natural causes (just like his 46 year old brother) much to the dimay of the APAB brigade, I'm sure.

 

 

 

Carry on, you're doing fine.

 

Carry on blatantly ignoring my post I guess. Not sure how that will progress the discussion though.

[djf]

The Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 says the person using force must honestly believe that it was justified, and not excessive. Force is deemed acceptable in self-defence, defence of another person or property, prevention of crime or lawful arrest.

 

Felix, you're up.

[Miller Jambo 60]

Felix, you're up.

 

Guys you can argue all day on this.

Hes dead like his brother, heart job was poor end off.

His push no worse when hearts scored on sat.

Mods finish this thread.

[deesidejambo]

Felix, you're up.

 

It gets into semantics, but you yourself have established that reasonable force is required for "prevention of crime". The guy could have been suspected of the crime of obstructing the police. He was walking slowly (perhaps to deliberately obsrtruct, perhaps due to an impending heart-attack). He had also been earlier (90 minutes earlier) seen and photographed standing in front of a Police van, with the copper shouting at him to get out of the way. He had also not responded to the baton on the leg, which was another indication that he may have been wilfully obstructing.

 

Given the 3 pieces of evidence above, it is possible that the Police thought he was obstructing them, in which case "reasonable force" could be allowed to prevent this. The question remains about whether shoving him was reasonable or not. I personally think the copper tried to shove him along but either shoved him too hard (in which case I agree the force was not reasonable) or the guy was either ill due to his condition or possibly pi**ed and was not able to stay on his feet.

 

The enquiry will run its course and we will find out what the full story is, as I expect there could be more to this than meets the eye.

 

For that reason I think its silly to come to complete judgements on this until all the facts are established.

[felix]

Felix, you're up.

 

Doug and Deeside both sum up perfectly what I was getting at ages ago (see post #225)

He was pushed, had a heart attack and died.

That's really all there is .

[Deevers]

It gets into semantics, but you yourself have established that reasonable force is required for "prevention of crime". The guy could have been suspected of the crime of obstructing the police. He was walking slowly (perhaps to deliberately obsrtruct, perhaps due to an impending heart-attack). He had also been earlier (90 minutes earlier) seen and photographed standing in front of a Police van, with the copper shouting at him to get out of the way. He had also not responded to the baton on the leg, which was another indication that he may have been wilfully obstructing.

 

Given the 3 pieces of evidence above, it is possible that the Police thought he was obstructing them, in which case "reasonable force" could be allowed to prevent this. The question remains about whether shoving him was reasonable or not. I personally think the copper tried to shove him along but either shoved him too hard (in which case I agree the force was not reasonable) or the guy was either ill due to his condition or possibly pi**ed and was not able to stay on his feet.

 

The enquiry will run its course and we will find out what the full story is, as I expect there could be more to this than meets the eye.

 

For that reason I think its silly to come to complete judgements on this until all the facts are established.

 

The most sensible sentence in this entire thread.

[djf]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7998976.stm

 

Least this one had the guts to show his face.

[269miles]

IIRC the original incident (involving the now dead bloke) involved members of the TSG.

 

The more up to date reader will be aware that there was a very recent court case (just 2-3 weeks ago) in which a colured UK citizen won a court case for the brutal beating and humiliating treatment he received at the hands of the TSG involved.

 

It transpired that the officers who meted out the beating had been the subject of over 60 serious complaints from members of the public who had similarly been mistreated. None of this was divulged in court. When MPS was confronted with this they simply said to the effect ..there's nothing unusual in that , it goes with the job.

 

When the defence lawyer asked to see the mail relating to these complaints she was told a lot of it had gone missing - sacks of the stuff. The lawyer is now pressing for MPS to be prosecuted for perverting the course of justice.

[Cade]

2nd Post Mortem ordered by the family has found that he died from an abdominal hemmorage and not a heart attack.

 

The polis who battered him then shoved him over has been interviewed under caution for manslaughter.

 

ACAB.

[Deek]

When you read the post mortem result he was a death in a hurry to happen.

 

He had a diseased heart and liver at 47!!

 

We will now have two experienced pathologists in court with different findings, although both agree on the heart disease. You would have thought a blow caused by a weapon or the impact of a fall, severe enough to have caused an abdominal haemorrhage would have left a mark or a bruise.

 

My limited experience of post mortems is that normally an abdominal haemorrhage is caused by ulcers bursting inside the gut.

[King of the North]

Good post. Confirms post mortem report that Mr Tomlinson died of heart attack and didn't have bruising or cuts. Second post mortem will likely confirm, therefore it seems he died of natural causes (just like his 46 year old brother) much to the dimay of the APAB brigade, I'm sure.

 

 

 

Carry on, you're doing fine.

 

Not a Heart attack - internal haemorrage.

 

Manslaughter charge for the killer in the balaclava who had removed his ID number prior to the vicous assault.

 

ACAB.

[Sharpie]

Just to complicate matters further, just recently had a friend die of an abdominal haemhorage(Sp). this was in fact a major artery from the heart which ruptured and he bled to death. Technically it seems it was related to a heart attack because of what it is, there had been no violence of any kind involved.

[felix]

Just to complicate matters further, just recently had a friend die of an abdominal haemhorage(Sp). this was in fact a major artery from the heart which ruptured and he bled to death. Technically it seems it was related to a heart attack because of what it is, there had been no violence of any kind involved.

 

Correct and as Deek points out, the victims major organs were in such a bad way, it sems they could have failed at any time, therefore proving the push led to death will be difficult. Yet people still persist with the APAB line ?

 

As for the unfortunate Mr. Tomlinson, both post mortems are preliminary. No-one has been charged with manslaughter and to make that charge stick, you'd have to prove the action of the accused were directly attributable to the victims death.

 

It may be wrong to rely on the first post mortem. It may well be abdominal haemmorrhaging that finished off Mr.Tomlinson but haemorraging like this is often linked to heart disease , ruptured aneurysms or cirrhosis of the liver - not being pushed over. Unless anyone can link the act of falling to the ground with the onset of any of the above, there's no case to answer (imho)

[Deek]

ACAB.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8005107.stm

 

Including this police officer no doubt.

[Sharpie]

Is it just me or is it not strange that there never seems to be video or photographs available when the cop is the victim. You would think that at least once someone would be able to get pictures on their phone or something.

[Cade]

Coppers getting shot, stabbed or beaten by hardened criminals is one thing.

 

Coppers beating peacefully protesting women, defenceless old men and other peaceniks is another thing entirely.

[Mr Romanov Saviour of HMFC]

I hope all the ACAB posters wouldn't bother phoning the police if you were in a bit of bother. That would be ridiculously two faced. Something tells me you would be the first ones on the phone though.

[Drew Busby !]

The initial post-mortem must have been conducted by someone reading from Post-mortems for Dummies. "This bloke is dead, therefore his heart must have stopped beating, therefore he must have suffered a heart attack".

[felix]

The initial post-mortem must have been conducted by someone reading from Post-mortems for Dummies. "This bloke is dead, therefore his heart must have stopped beating, therefore he must have suffered a heart attack".

 

The original post mortem was conducted by a pathologist with a very dubious record.

[djf]

I hope all the ACAB posters wouldn't bother phoning the police if you were in a bit of bother. That would be ridiculously two faced. Something tells me you would be the first ones on the phone though.

 

What ridiculous logic.

[Deek]

What ridiculous logic.

 

Why is it ridiculous?

 

2 or 3 on this thread have finished their post with ACAB. Are you saying they would not call for the police if they needed help?

 

They probably would, which surely is a contradiction of how they feel.

[Commander Harris]

slogans such as ACAB are just plain dumb. There are many police officers in the job for the right reasons who are doing a fine job under very difficult circumstances.

[Nicholas Brody]

Sorry what is this ACAB thing?

[Cade]

Sorry what is this ACAB thing?

 

All Coppers Are Barstewards:smash:

[Nicholas Brody]

All Coppers Are Barstewards:smash:

 

Ah great:cry2:

[Deek]

All Coppers Are Barstewards:smash:

 

See #276.

[djf]

http://www.sundayherald.com/news/heraldnews/display.var.2502920.0.0.php

 

Journalist Jason Parkinson, 39, says he was also subjected to police brutality' while covering the demonstrations.

 

"I was following the march to the Bank of England," he said. "It was probably the most brutal violence I have seen since May Day 2000 (when about 150,000 people marched in London during anti-capitalist demonstrations).

 

"This was indiscriminate attacks on people doing nothing wrong.

 

"When I got to Threadneedle Street I was hit repeatedly. There was a lot of pushing going on and I was having terrible trouble trying to film. I ended up right at the front of a group of protesters. There was a baton charge by police. When that charge came in it was completely indiscriminate.

 

 

"I would say attacks on peaceful protesters is simply to discourage people from protesting, and it is the same as attacks on the press.

 

But they're under so much pressure and in a difficult position. Wah wah wah.

 

The freedom of assembly. UK 2009 style.

[Maximus]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/feb/16/protest-police-liberty-central

 

The polliceoften try their best to incite trouble in these situations, to cause confrontation. Why? Perhaps the government are looking for a way to effectively outlaw protests (they seem to be preparing for something with all these daft laws being brought in). In the case of the g20 it backfired because despite the best efforts of the police and media (who for weeks insisted it was going to be all out war) the protests were largely a damp squib and the police not the protestors who are being shown up as thugs.

[maroonlegions]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/feb/16/protest-police-liberty-central

 

The polliceoften try their best to incite trouble in these situations, to cause confrontation. Why? Perhaps the government are looking for a way to effectively outlaw protests (they seem to be preparing for something with all these daft laws being brought in). In the case of the g20 it backfired because despite the best efforts of the police and media (who for weeks insisted it was going to be all out war) the protests were largely a damp squib and the police not the protestors who are being shown up as thugs.

 

 

 

 

 

"Why? Perhaps the government are looking for a way to effectively outlaw protests (they seem to be preparing for something with all these daft laws being brought in)".

 

Correct, there is something happening and the amount of attacks on our civil rights too should not be over looked also.

[Cade]

The Police are rapidly becoming enforcers of political will, and not enforcers of Law.

[Captain_Peacock]

.

[I P Knightley]

slogans such as ACAB are just plain dumb. There are many police officers in the job for the right reasons who are doing a fine job under very difficult circumstances.

 

You're spot on. And as long as the press and public continue to tar them all with the same brush, the number of fine officers will dwindle.

 

That news clip published by the BBC with the girl who had been screaming at the copper before getting a slap was biased anti-police stiff at its worst.

 

Again, the copper had maybe been a bit heavy-handed but if you were to listen to the woman's piece (all dressed up in a simpering floral print frock and presented as sweetness and light - represented by MAx Clifford, you may not be surprised to hear) you'd be led to believe that a big, bad bully polisman had jumped Little Miss Muffet while she innocently frolicked in a daisy field.

 

Our police are better than most around the world. This constant baiting of them, though, will lead the better ones to say "Eff this for a game of soldiers" and go elsewhere, leaving us with the bad ones in charge. Then we'll end up with the kind of police force they have in Central Europe - the kind that too many people are wrongly claiming that we have already.

[djf]

Nobody is suggesting policing is an easy job. Hence why they get a very generous salary, pension and earlier retirement than most.

 

I'm sure the good police-officers in the UK will have no problem whatsoever that the crap ones that have been highlighted in this thread are facing punishment.

[maroonlegions]

The Police are rapidly becoming enforcers of political will, and not enforcers of Law.

 

Agreed and that political will is entering the NWO mind set.

[felix]

You're spot on. And as long as the press and public continue to tar them all with the same brush, the number of fine officers will dwindle.

 

That news clip published by the BBC with the girl who had been screaming at the copper before getting a slap was biased anti-police stiff at its worst.

 

Again, the copper had maybe been a bit heavy-handed but if you were to listen to the woman's piece (all dressed up in a simpering floral print frock and presented as sweetness and light - represented by MAx Clifford, you may not be surprised to hear) you'd be led to believe that a big, bad bully polisman had jumped Little Miss Muffet while she innocently frolicked in a daisy field.

 

Our police are better than most around the world. This constant baiting of them, though, will lead the better ones to say "Eff this for a game of soldiers" and go elsewhere, leaving us with the bad ones in charge. Then we'll end up with the kind of police force they have in Central Europe - the kind that too many people are wrongly claiming that we have already.

 

away an' shoiwt wi' yer fancy dan ideas.

ACAB

[southside1874]

I have just watched the video of this so-called "innocent" man and in my opinion it is clear he is trying to be a wide-boy and deliberately walk out of the police way as slowly as possible.

 

I am sorry the guy died, but I am really hacked off at the super pc newspapers claiming that those nasty policeman assualted an "innocent bystander" - I'm sorry, if there is riot police coming and telling you to do something, you do it quicker than he does in the video, assuming you are really innocent of course!

 

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/2009/04/08/outrage-as-video-shows-baton-cop-hitting-g20-victim-ian-tomlinson-from-behind-86908-21262590/

 

If I push a guy and he falls to the ground and dies then I am charged with manslaughter. Its no difference. Although I understand the pressure the cops under, his actions caused the death and that family need justice.

[Deevers]

"Why? Perhaps the government are looking for a way to effectively outlaw protests (they seem to be preparing for something with all these daft laws being brought in)".

 

Correct, there is something happening and the amount of attacks on our civil rights too should not be over looked also.

 

Watch for something similar to the now defunct "Riot Act 1715" being rolled out to indemnify the police and the authorities in the event of public disorder at street demonstrations or parades.

 

Strange times we live in.

 

Having said all that I'm beginning to be a bit fed up of all the professional dissenters being rolled out to whine about the heavy handed police.

[I P Knightley]

away an' shoiwt wi' yer fancy dan ideas.

ACAB

 

All Cliffords Are Bashturds?

 

I couldn't possibly comment, I'm only aware of Max...

[djf]

Information on the "kettling" approach that police use:

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8000641.stm

 

Plus some quotes that are very relevant and will hopefully tie up a lot of the arguements that took place in this thread

 

Eventually, say the police, most [protesters] get fed-up and agree to depart peacefully.

 

Certainly suggests the police now percieve protesting as wrong and something that should be stopped.

 

For example the police standard weapon - the baton - can be used, but only if its use is "proportionate to the level of threat".

 

Which once and for all proves that the officer in the video's actions were against regulation.

 

Police sources have told the BBC they expect the current inquiry to support the continued use of kettling.

 

Which is unfortunate

[269miles]

Watch for something similar to the now defunct "Riot Act 1715" being rolled out to indemnify the police and the authorities in the event of public disorder at street demonstrations or parades.

 

Strange times we live in.

 

Having said all that I'm beginning to be a bit fed up of all the professional dissenters being rolled out to whine about the heavy handed police.

 

You mean like the old bloke who was ejected from a recent Labour party conference under anti terrorism legislation ?

 

What about the numerous arrests made under this legislation - which in the overwhelming majority of cases , have led to NO prosecutions ?

 

You don't think the police (some) are going to far/abusing their power ?

 

The police are here to enforce the law : the law enshrines the right to peaceful protest , but thye seem to have forgotten that point.

 

There have hundreds of incidents in which people have been arrested or threatened with arrest under anti terrorist legislation in which police have over stepped the mark (protestors illegally moved and and detained in anti Chinese govt protests, journalists acting as witnesss to recent kettling tactics). None of this got much publicity until one guy managed to get pictures of someone actually being struck by police : and this was after the IPCC had already said it never happened because he never met the police.

[Deevers]

You mean like the old bloke who was ejected from a recent Labour party conference under anti terrorism legislation ?

 

What about the numerous arrests made under this legislation - which in the overwhelming majority of cases , have led to NO prosecutions ?

 

You don't think the police (some) are going to far/abusing their power ?

 

The police are here to enforce the law : the law enshrines the right to peaceful protest , but thye seem to have forgotten that point.

 

There have hundreds of incidents in which people have been arrested or threatened with arrest under anti terrorist legislation in which police have over stepped the mark (protestors illegally moved and and detained in anti Chinese govt protests, journalists acting as witnesss to recent kettling tactics). None of this got much publicity until one guy managed to get pictures of someone actually being struck by police : and this was after the IPCC had already said it never happened because he never met the police.

 

 

The professional demonstrators that pervade any sort of demonstration these days, who are solely out to cause problems have all but ensured that any bod demonstration is going to have it's fair share of bother. Unfortunately they have to be dealt with in a robust manner. Most of those now whinging an whining about being pushed and shoved I would reckon did more than their fair share of that as well. Indeed the strange anti captalist bint who's now wetting her knickers at the prospect of making a bit of money out of all after running off to the arch capatilst max Clifford, really says it all about he particular complaint.

[Ben Dover]

Not wishing to trivialise this discussion, but look at the treatment that is being meted out to us at Celtic park ........and Strathclyde Police's attitude towards any queries?

If I'm not mistaken we had 40+ arrests at one match

We take a high profile observer to the stadium for the next encounter ........and lo and behold there are well under 5 arrests

Almost the next match ( unobserved ) and the arrests leap back up to 40+

Yet bizarrely, Strathclyde Police don't see that stat as worthy of any explanation

They are fast becoming a law unto themselves ..........while supposedly protecting us ??

[djf]

The professional demonstrators that pervade any sort of demonstration these days, who are solely out to cause problems have all but ensured that any bod demonstration is going to have it's fair share of bother. Unfortunately they have to be dealt with in a robust manner. Most of those now whinging an whining about being pushed and shoved I would reckon did more than their fair share of that as well. Indeed the strange anti captalist bint who's now wetting her knickers at the prospect of making a bit of money out of all after running off to the arch capatilst max Clifford, really says it all about he particular complaint.

 

Have you been to many demonstrations recently? I appreciate it's only anecdotal evidence but the ones i've attended over the past 2/3 years have been completely trouble free until officers start trying to deal with things in a "robust" fashion.

[269miles]

The professional demonstrators that pervade any sort of demonstration these days, who are solely out to cause problems have all but ensured that any bod demonstration is going to have it's fair share of bother. Unfortunately they have to be dealt with in a robust manner. Most of those now whinging an whining about being pushed and shoved I would reckon did more than their fair share of that as well. Indeed the strange anti captalist bint who's now wetting her knickers at the prospect of making a bit of money out of all after running off to the arch capatilst max Clifford, really says it all about he particular complaint.

 

In which case you are ignoring the evidence and the reported facts.

 

My point is there has been widepsread abuse , particularly by the Met , in handling peaceful & lawfull protests. This abuse has been reported in the media on numerous occasions but nobody gave a toss until that film clip surfaced. If you want to fix on one incident then that's your choice : the problem is much bigger than an opportunistic sandal wearer wanting to make a buck.

 

At risk of repeating myself on this thread : there was a court case in which a coloured citizen of the UK won his battle for damages against brutal treatment suffered at the hands of the Met TSG - this is the same group who are in the dock (they're not the only ones) over recent beatings (which the IPCC said originally never happened and only change it's mind when the film evidence appeared). At the end of this trial the defence lawyer moved for contempt of court proceedings against the Met as they failed to produce the written complaints submitted against the police officers involved from previous incidents - sacks of mail have gone missing and the Met can't explain why although it was able to dismiss the complaints as 'going with the job' sort of thing.

 

And it isn't just the Met - the City of London police regularly attend marches where their officers are not displaying ID numbers (not to mention the Met guys who have been photographed disguising themselves as medics). In one case an Inpsector refused to identify himself when confronted (he wasn't wearing his tags either). And he's supposed to be a commanding officer.

 

Still , no harm done .

[merseyjambo]

Not that long after the story broke Channel 4 News did a piece on this. It seemed that the male had tried to get out beyond the police cordons 2 hours earlier at 2 or 3 different points only to be denied exit. He then seems to have vanished off the radar for 2 hours before going down the street where he is knocked to the ground.

 

There is obviously something happening on the street as the police have been deployed in a standard running line tactic with batons drawn. Unfortunately like most things, the camera only catches what is in front of it not what is to the side or behind. In this instance, there are no pictures of what are behind and to the side of where the footage was shot. However, if a line of cops with batons drawn and dogs mixed in the line is moving/jogging forward, common sense would tell you to get out the way of it. The pictures are inconclusive as the line already have their batons drawn when they start to move and it doesn't really show if the officer actually swings his baton and strikes him or uses the baton to push him out the way, causing him to fall.

 

Running lines are standard tactics for crowd dispersal.

 

With regard to the female, you can clearly see the officer is faced by a hostile crowd. She is warned to 'Get Back' before the officer is slightly stood in front of her. She then grabs/touches the officer on his shoulder when he has his back to her. He is facing a hostile/angry crowd and not taking his eye of them he lashes out with the back of his hand to push whatever it was away, in this instance hitting her in the face. The officer then adopts a defensive pose with his arm up, palm facing outwards and is balancing on his back foot. The female comes back at this point and again starts yelling at the officer. This however appears to be where he has problems, when he strikes her with his baton.

 

Police use of force is all about justification. If you can justify why you have used the force you have, then under Common Law in England & Wales, you don't have an issue. For example, the officer who was lying on the ground in Manchester getting the crap kicked out of him by Der Hun. If another officer had came to his aid and used his baton to strike the Rangers fans, he would have had justification under Common Law to Protect Life & Limb. An elderly female shoplifter gets arrested. She causes no problems yet the officer strikes her with his baton. Theres no justification for the level of force used there and this becomes a problem for the officer.

 

With regard the male you can see being hit by the shield. All you can see is the officers holding their shields up in a solid line. There are hundreds, if not thousands pushing against the line. The shields are also what are called short shields (small, designed for personal protection), covering only their facial area. The officer has struck out but because you cannot see what is going on below chest level, you have no ide what actually happened. The male could have been continuously kicking the officer or punched him in the bollox or something similar to the officers unprotected body area.

 

Its easy to sit and pass judgment on what was clearly a difficult situation. I was in a similar one last year when Der Hun was in Manchester and without saying too much, ended up trying to arrest 2 of them while on my own then having about 20 or 30 of them screaming for your blood around you. You've got idiots with cam phones filming you while trying to detain them shouting at you that they're 'Gettin you done for assault, by the way' and other idiots who are looking to kick the crap out of you. I had my baton drawn and was yelling at the crowd to get back in what could be perceived as an unprofessional manner, however when you are in that situation, all you are thinking about is self preservation.

[djf]

Yeah, only an idiot would want to film the police. There is absolutely no reason to do such a thing.

 

I notice you've wrote about 150 words about justifiable force but not actually mentioned if you think the police officer in the video used justified force.

 

Seems your superiors don't since the officer involved has now been suspended.