War Memorial Thread

[Guest GhostHunter]

Continued from CompleteIdiots thread on the other board..

 

Trams are more important than war heroes - according to TIE.

 

http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/ed...-is.3668638.jp

[Jack Alexander]

The McCrae's Battalion Trust has been in contact with the Council ever since it became apparent that a move (of whatever distance) was inevitable.

 

Moreover the football club has thus far been happy to accept our advice on the matter and to be kept up to date on developments by our members.

 

We made it clear from the start that we were opposed to the McLeod Street option first suggested by the city's conservation officer. Indeed, so far as I'm aware, she's the only person involved in the discussions who believes it's a good idea.

 

The challenge, therefore (we hope) is to find a spot within the new road layout that offers (at least) as much dignity and prominence as the clocktower enjoys at the moment.

 

It was envisaged originally as a Hearts monument. Over the years, however, its reputation and significance has grown. It's now a war memorial of international fame, commemorating the sacrifice of a generation of young sportsmen, who were inspired by the selfless example of the players and followers of a wee Edinburgh football team. It has become more than a football memorial. It's an Edinburgh (and, indeed, a Scottish) landmark.

 

It was built in the aftermath of a war in which a million British and Commonwealth servicemen and women laid down their lives to preserve the freedoms that we take for granted today. Its position was deliberately chosen - intended to demonstrate the city's acknowledgement of that sacrifice. It was built in a time of grieving and terrible uncertainty, when many of the dead had no known grave.

 

In the absence of any certain burial place (and at such a great distance from France and Flanders), the tower became a focal point for commemoration - not just grand ceremonies on Remembrance Sunday (which thankfully are now being regenerated), but for countless small daily acts of personal Remembrance. When I walk past I think about Tommy Gracie and my uncle (a young Hearts supporter) who was killed in North Africa in 1942.

 

The men who served in McCrae's considered the memorial site to be almost 'holy' ground - gifted to the football club by a humbly grateful city.

 

As for the memorial itself - well you couldn't miss it. Everybody sees it. That was the point!

 

We have no right to second-guess its creators and cart the thing off to a side-street in Gorgie. Especially to make way for a tramline.

 

Because there was a time (not long ago) when Haymarket was one of the busiest tram interchanges in Europe. Trams, cars, lorries, buses and pedestrians happily negotiated a confusing complication of crossroads and corners. In the middle of all this (barely organised) chaos, standing tall and (I like to think) a little proudly, was the Heart of Midlothian clocktower.

 

Surely it's within the ingenuity of the clever men and women who work for TIE to examine photographs and plans of the old road layout and come up with a solution that allows the tower to remain in a central and visible position without causing undue disruption to the flow of traffic.

 

Can anyone truly imagine the junction without it? What on earth would the lads who served in the Great War say if they could see these proposals?

 

It's the Haymarket Memorial. Not the McLeod Street one.

[Jarhead]

Very well said Jack.

[leginten]

Well said, Jack Alexander.

[Robbos Right Peg]

Jack am I correct in thinking that the area where the clocktower was given 'in perpetuum' by the then council ? If so could there not be some sort of legal challenge ? I might be talking rubbish mind as there has been soo much said about this subject I could well be confused.

[Jack Alexander]

Jack am I correct in thinking that the area where the clocktower was given 'in perpetuum' by the then council ? If so could there not be some sort of legal challenge ? I might be talking rubbish mind as there has been soo much said about this subject I could well be confused.

 

Yes, it was, but the arrangement was informal. The football club immediately gifted the clocktower to the City of Edinburgh to be maintained in its care. The unveiling ceremony (which was carried out by the Secretary of State for Scotland) signified the actual moment of transfer. Legally, the City still has ownership.

 

I don't think we want to go to Law over this - even if we could. We just need to appeal to the common sense of the officials and architects who are working on this project. None of what I've written in the above post is remotely controversial or hard to understand. If this was a Celtic or Rangers monument (which it manifestly is not!), we would not be having any discussion. Nobody would dare touch it.

 

I'd like to think that this is one subject the notoriously quarrelsome Heart of Midlothian 'family' can rally around and agree on. We've already had several messages of support from folk of the Hibernian persuasion!

 

We need everyone to speak with a united voice and protect this famous old Edinburgh landmark. The lads who really understood what it meant are gone now, so it's up to us.

[Jerah Jambo]

The McCrae's Battalion Trust has been in contact with the Council ever since it became apparent that a move (of whatever distance) was inevitable.

 

Moreover the football club has thus far been happy to accept our advice on the matter and to be kept up to date on developments by our members.

 

We made it clear from the start that we were opposed to the McLeod Street option first suggested by the city's conservation officer. Indeed, so far as I'm aware, she's the only person involved in the discussions who believes it's a good idea.

 

The challenge, therefore (we hope) is to find a spot within the new road layout that offers (at least) as much dignity and prominence as the clocktower enjoys at the moment.

 

It was envisaged originally as a Hearts monument. Over the years, however, its reputation and significance has grown. It's now a war memorial of international fame, commemorating the sacrifice of a generation of young sportsmen, who were inspired by the selfless example of the players and followers of a wee Edinburgh football team. It has become more than a football memorial. It's an Edinburgh (and, indeed, a Scottish) landmark.

 

It was built in the aftermath of a war in which a million British and Commonwealth servicemen and women laid down their lives to preserve the freedoms that we take for granted today. Its position was deliberately chosen - intended to demonstrate the city's acknowledgement of that sacrifice. It was built in a time of grieving and terrible uncertainty, when many of the dead had no known grave.

 

In the absence of any certain burial place (and at such a great distance from France and Flanders), the tower became a focal point for commemoration - not just grand ceremonies on Remembrance Sunday (which thankfully are now being regenerated), but for countless small daily acts of personal Remembrance. When I walk past I think about Tommy Gracie and my uncle (a young Hearts supporter) who was killed in North Africa in 1942.

 

The men who served in McCrae's considered the memorial site to be almost 'holy' ground - gifted to the football club by a humbly grateful city.

 

As for the memorial itself - well you couldn't miss it. Everybody sees it. That was the point!

 

We have no right to second-guess its creators and cart the thing off to a side-street in Gorgie. Especially to make way for a tramline.

 

Because there was a time (not long ago) when Haymarket was one of the busiest tram interchanges in Europe. Trams, cars, lorries, buses and pedestrians happily negotiated a confusing complication of crossroads and corners. In the middle of all this (barely organised) chaos, standing tall and (I like to think) a little proudly, was the Heart of Midlothian clocktower.

Surely it's within the ingenuity of the clever men and women who work for TIE to examine photographs and plans of the old road layout and come up with a solution that allows the tower to remain in a central and visible position without causing undue disruption to the flow of traffic.

 

Can anyone truly imagine the junction without it? What on earth would the lads who served in the Great War say if they could see these proposals?

 

It's the Haymarket Memorial. Not the McLeod Street one.

 

 

More than a little Jack. Having been lucky enough to have visited the Western Front on a few occasions I can't pass the Memorial without a huge feeling of pride and gratitude for these boys. I'm delighted to hear you're keeping an eye things, I couldn't think of anyone better qualified.

[Jack Alexander]

More than a little Jack. Having been lucky enough to have visited the Western Front on a few occasions I can't pass the Memorial without a huge feeling of pride and gratitude for these boys.

 

Thank you, JJ. It's good to know that our younger citizens care, too.

[IMA MAROON]

It is a Hearts memorial and I don't see anything wrong with it being placed outside Tynecastle.

[Debtor]

No matter what individuals think, those in power want the trams!

Nothing will get in the way, and a memorial to the fallen does not mean much to them!

 

Jacks point that it was to signify Edinburgh's pride n the achievement is a valid one. The city remembered these men, and thousands turned out to watch the unveiling, so we must ask if this move is just a bit callous. Planners do not care, TIE will not care in the least, but if people care then perhaps pressurising your councillor would help. They can be found on the city website, and e-mail addresses are there for some.

 

No reason it should not be moved, it already has been, but I agree it ought to be where the battalion knew it belonged!

[Guest S.U.S.S.]

The McCrae's Battalion Trust has been in contact with the Council ever since it became apparent that a move (of whatever distance) was inevitable.

 

Moreover the football club has thus far been happy to accept our advice on the matter and to be kept up to date on developments by our members.

 

We made it clear from the start that we were opposed to the McLeod Street option first suggested by the city's conservation officer. Indeed, so far as I'm aware, she's the only person involved in the discussions who believes it's a good idea.

 

The challenge, therefore (we hope) is to find a spot within the new road layout that offers (at least) as much dignity and prominence as the clocktower enjoys at the moment.

 

It was envisaged originally as a Hearts monument. Over the years, however, its reputation and significance has grown. It's now a war memorial of international fame, commemorating the sacrifice of a generation of young sportsmen, who were inspired by the selfless example of the players and followers of a wee Edinburgh football team. It has become more than a football memorial. It's an Edinburgh (and, indeed, a Scottish) landmark.

 

It was built in the aftermath of a war in which a million British and Commonwealth servicemen and women laid down their lives to preserve the freedoms that we take for granted today. Its position was deliberately chosen - intended to demonstrate the city's acknowledgement of that sacrifice. It was built in a time of grieving and terrible uncertainty, when many of the dead had no known grave.

 

In the absence of any certain burial place (and at such a great distance from France and Flanders), the tower became a focal point for commemoration - not just grand ceremonies on Remembrance Sunday (which thankfully are now being regenerated), but for countless small daily acts of personal Remembrance. When I walk past I think about Tommy Gracie and my uncle (a young Hearts supporter) who was killed in North Africa in 1942.

 

The men who served in McCrae's considered the memorial site to be almost 'holy' ground - gifted to the football club by a humbly grateful city.

 

As for the memorial itself - well you couldn't miss it. Everybody sees it. That was the point!

 

We have no right to second-guess its creators and cart the thing off to a side-street in Gorgie. Especially to make way for a tramline.

 

Because there was a time (not long ago) when Haymarket was one of the busiest tram interchanges in Europe. Trams, cars, lorries, buses and pedestrians happily negotiated a confusing complication of crossroads and corners. In the middle of all this (barely organised) chaos, standing tall and (I like to think) a little proudly, was the Heart of Midlothian clocktower.

 

Surely it's within the ingenuity of the clever men and women who work for TIE to examine photographs and plans of the old road layout and come up with a solution that allows the tower to remain in a central and visible position without causing undue disruption to the flow of traffic.

 

Can anyone truly imagine the junction without it? What on earth would the lads who served in the Great War say if they could see these proposals?

 

It's the Haymarket Memorial. Not the McLeod Street one.

 

JKB can be a bit of a joke at times, yet its always redeemed every so often with a wonderful post like this.

 

credit where credit is due mate.

[cardboardcutout]

Another example of the history of our great country and the sacrifices of many young people being marginalised in the name of progress!

 

Pride in where you come from is nearly a crime these days if it in anyway reminds people of conflict with germans,japanese,italians,turks or their allies!

 

lest we forget indeed!

[Chuck Berry]

As a personal opinion, I would have no objection to it being moved to Tynecastle, however, if Jack Alexander is adamant that Haymarket is where is should belong in perpetuity, then I'll support that stance.

[Coco]

The people at TIE do not care about anything other than picking up their juicy compensation.

 

They do not care that the tram line will increase congestion, increase journey times, increase pollution and cost way over the 'estimates'. Their only concern is to sink enough money into the ground as quickly as possible - such that the sunk costs blackmail the city into continuing with this ludicrous tram line.

 

It follows that they will be completely uncaring about the War Memorial at Haymarket other than offering platitudes.

 

My view is that the Memorial should stay where it is. But how else can TIE bulldoze their road train through the Haymarket junction (the new road train trams are not comparable to the old Edinburgh ones) without knocking down this wonderful Memorial?

[Fulham Jambo]

The memorial has been moved once before when the road layout was changed.

 

I understand if it needs to be moved for tram tracks but it is a Haymarket landmark and should be located in Haymarket with enough space around it for the service each year

[IMA MAROON]

It will be closer to home if moved to Tynecastle. I really don't care about the trams.

[Deevers]

My Grandfather was one of the many thousands who attended the dedication ceremony when the memorial was unveiled. The rightful place is at Haymarket and it would be an intolerable piece of bureaucratic vandalism and show a complete lack of respect for Edinburgh's War Dead if it's removal elsewhere was to be force on us.

[Cigaro]

As a personal opinion, I would have no objection to it being moved to Tynecastle, however, if Jack Alexander is adamant that Haymarket is where is should belong in perpetuity, then I'll support that stance.

 

Yip, I'd agree with that.

 

Cant imagine it not being at Haymarket.

[jambojim52]

Quote:

Surely it's within the ingenuity of the clever men and women who work for TIE to examine photographs and plans of the old road layout.

 

 

Sorry Jack but they are not interested.

 

The reason they want to move it, is so that the trams will not have to stop running during any future services.

 

Once this LINE is up and running( if ever) the trams will not be able to adjust thier timetable as easily as a bus.

[davemclaren]

Quote:

Surely it's within the ingenuity of the clever men and women who work for TIE to examine photographs and plans of the old road layout.

 

 

Sorry Jack but they are not interested.

 

The reason they want to move it, is so that the trams will not have to stop running during any future services.

 

Once this LINE is up and running( if ever) the trams will not be able to adjust thier timetable as easily as a bus.

 

 

I doubt that the timetable has anything to do with the reshaping of Haymarket. More likely to be trying to fit the trams in with the road lanes. In the old days they shared the road ( as there were so few cars ) but now I would think they will try to segregate them as far as is possible.

 

However, a suitable space should be found for the Memorial, though will they be keen to stop the trams for the service I wonder.... .

[Jack Alexander]

Quote:

 

The reason they want to move it, is so that the trams will not have to stop running during any future services.

 

Once this LINE is up and running( if ever) the trams will not be able to adjust thier timetable as easily as a bus.

 

That's certainly true, Jim. It's the message we've consistently received from the Council. It's not possible to stop the trams/light trains - even during the annual service.

 

However it should still be possible to accommodate the memorial close to its present position. That's the outcome we are seeking from the ongoing discussions.

[blackjambo]

Quote:

Surely it's within the ingenuity of the clever men and women who work for TIE to examine photographs and plans of the old road layout.

 

 

Sorry Jack but they are not interested.

 

The reason they want to move it, is so that the trams will not have to stop running during any future services.

 

Once this LINE is up and running( if ever) the trams will not be able to adjust thier timetable as easily as a bus.

 

I don't think that this would even be considered. The cost of moving a valuable monument is not something they would do without good reason. Haymarket is the right place for it - but the current location is vastly inferior to it's previous one as the centre piece of the junction. With the big development mooted on the goods yard, there are likely to be further changes in the area. In fact if I read the plans correctly, the current location will be dwarfed by a 16 storey glass and steel hotel!

 

I agree that the "dialogue" approach is the correct way. Personally, I would prefer not to have to cram onto a traffic island on remembrance Sunday - but I don't know enough about all the other developments in the area (glass covered concourse over the station, etc) to make an informed judgement on the best location.

[Ben Dover]

Is it possible to view the plans of the proposed new layout anywhere on the web ?

Thanks

[jamboozy]

One hundred % support you on this, if this memorial was dedicated to any side of the Glasgow divide we wouldn,t hear the end of it ,although Celtic for some reason only known to them didn,t have any players volunteer for the great war, Did they?

[Debtor]

Neither Celtic nor Rangers rushed to enlist.

However both clubs lost men during the war.

In Celtics case certainly many were older, married and some were miners.

It was young single men who were supposed to enlist, and miners were not supposed to go. Rangers players may well have waited until conscription.

With the stregnth of feeling over the 'Home Rule' bill still in folks minds it is no surprise Celtic folks felt unwilling to enlist. Some did however, some died.

Rangers players do not have that excuse, and Carson's 36th Ulster Brigade won several VCs. Gers fans and players could have loyally joined them!

They waited.

 

 

However, when remembering men who fell, it is important not to do it because they played for one club or another. They should be remembered for their actions! Whoever they are.

[jamboozy]

Thanks Debtor, didn,t mean to disrespect anybody who fought and died for thier Country,and i hope it didn,t come across that way, i just think we wouldn,t have the problem of a war memorial being disrespected if it was to Rangers,Celtic and Glasgows fallen.

[Debtor]

jamboozy, I was not trying to put you down!

 

The point about the OF is good, but I wonder what would happen to a memorial to either club in Glasgow?

[Father Tiresias]

I really cannot believe that a favourable spot at the Haymarket junction can't be found for this memorial.

 

Dorothy Marsh's recommendation to hide it away up in Gorgie may appeal to many Hearts fans, but this memorial has a wider significance today than when it was built in 1922.

[Coco]

Is it possible to view the plans of the proposed new layout anywhere on the web ?

Thanks

 

I don't think that there are any published yet.

 

TIE are waiting until they have spent enough money to blackmail the city before releasing the plans to close streets, move the Memorial etc.

[blackjambo]

I have uploaded some photos of how the memorial site used to look. One was from the first days of the tram cars in the 40's - and it looked like a traffic hazzard. The second is how I remember it as a boy, as part of a big garden type traffic island. Sorry it is so distant - but it was the only one that I could find.

 

http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=7524714

 

http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=7524715

[Jack Alexander]

I have uploaded some photos of how the memorial site used to look. One was from the first days of the tram cars in the 40's - and it looked like a traffic hazzard. The second is how I remember it as a boy, as part of a big garden type traffic island. Sorry it is so distant - but it was the only one that I could find.

 

Attached is an image from the late '50s showing the sheer size of the clocktower's old 'enclosure'. The layout was inspired by the design of Commonwealth War Graves Commission cemeteries on the Western Front.

 

 

(Click image to see enlargement)

[davemclaren]

Attached is an image from the late '50s showing the sheer size of the clocktower's old 'enclosure'. The layout was inspired by the design of Commonwealth War Graves Commission cemeteries on the Western Front.

 

[ATTACH]38[/ATTACH]

 

(Click image to see enlargement)

 

Nice picture. I doubt there will be enough room for that after the trams are in place given the amount of other traffic as well. Have you spoken to the Morrision Street developers to see if there are any options of making it a feature on that side of the road, perhaps in a square or something?

[Jack Alexander]

Nice picture. I doubt there will be enough room for that after the trams are in place given the amount of other traffic as well. Have you spoken to the Morrision Street developers to see if there are any options of making it a feature on that side of the road, perhaps in a square or something?

 

At the moment we are focussing on trying to keep the clocktower in the centre of the junction. Maintaining its visibility and dignity are our main aims.

 

The development planned for the goodsyard site will loom over the junction. The tower would be dwarfed by it.

 

Moreover, it's not a piece of street furniture to be shifted about at the whim of planning officials and developers who might (for example) move to another job in Birmingham or London as soon as they've finished with Haymarket. It's an internationally famous Edinburgh landmark and it's been there for a long time.

 

We feel that any new developments should acknowledge this 'seniority' and take account of the established position of prominence that was chosen for compelling reasons by the men and women who built it.

[davemclaren]

At the moment we are focussing on trying to keep the clocktower in the centre of the junction. Maintaining its visibility and dignity are our main aims.

 

The development planned for the goodsyard site will loom over the junction. The tower would be dwarfed by it.

 

Moreover, it's not a piece of street furniture to be shifted about at the whim of planning officials and developers who might (for example) move to another job in Birmingham or London as soon as they've finished with Haymarket. It's an internationally famous Edinburgh landmark and it's been there for a long time.

 

We feel that any new developments should acknowledge this 'seniority' and take account of the established position of prominence that was chosen for compelling reasons by the men and women who built it.

 

Good luck, I think it will be tough in the face of a commercial property development and a council needing the trams to be a success for them.

[Cyber]

My Grandfather was one of the many thousands who attended the dedication ceremony when the memorial was unveiled. The rightful place is at Haymarket and it would be an intolerable piece of bureaucratic vandalism and show a complete lack of respect for Edinburgh's War Dead if it's removal elsewhere was to be force on us.

 

Well said