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The sectarian divide in Edinburgh - Ian Rankin


billco98

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On the TV program yes, not in the books

 

I'm sure it's mentioned but the TV series have over played the fact.

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hating catholics doesn't make you a protestant ;)

 

I think the view of Hibs as a 'catholic' club has more basis than that of Hearts as a Protestant one. Hibs were founded by Irish catholics and have that part of their heritage (I would imagine Hibs have a far bigger percentage of their support who are catholic than Hearts) but Hearts are not and never have been a Protestant club. Some of the support might wish that were the case but we've never had it as a central plank of the club's identitiy.

 

 

and Rankin's books are gash.

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These are the views of a Hibs fan.

 

Yes when Hibs were formed in 1875 they were a church based amatuer football team from St Patrick's Roman Catholic Church in the Cowgate in Edinburgh. They were part of the Catholic Young Mens Society. The church was based in what was known as Little Ireland in Edinburgh serving a largely Irish immigrant community. There was some hostility to the working class Irish in Edinburgh at this time thus the idea to have their own football team. To play for the team at this time you had to be a practicising Catholic.

 

Hibs were a very successful team and in the West of Scotland, where there was a much bigger Irish and Catholic population it was decided to set up a similar sort of team although not formed around a particular parish church. Thus the formation of Celtic. They were professional and lured a large number of the then Hibs players to play for Celtic.

 

Hibs then went into rapid decline eventually lost the ground they rented for playing football not far from the current Easter Road. Hibs reformed in 1891 and while all the Committee members were Catholics it was decided to jettison their Church links, turn professional and make the team and the support open to anybody.

 

As time has progessed then the nature of Hibs changed. So in the 1930's Harry Swan was elected to the Hibs board and became the first non Irish non Catholic Board member. He later became Chairman of the Board and led the Club at the successful time of the Famous Five forward line (as an aside none of which were Catholic!)

 

What about Hibs support now? We can't be divorced from our history and I would guess maybe a third of our support might describe themselves as Catholics (a Hibs.net poll came up with these numbers) although whether they go to Church or not might be another matter? So probably just as many of our fans are Church of Scotland Protestant and probably even more (like myself) would not hold to any religious views.

 

Did Hearts become a "Protestant" club due to the preceived "Catholic" Hibs? There probably was some development in that direction but I would hope, just like the Hibs that choice of football club has more to do with family and friends and where you live rather than your religion.

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The fictional detective, Inspector Rebus is a Hibs fan.

 

He was not a Hibs fan in the Rebus books. Siobhan Clarke his side kick was English and had adopted Hibs as her team .The TV series caste Ken Stott, Hearts fan, as Hibs supporting.

Rebus didnt really understand football which is probably why he was made into a Hibs fan for TV.

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The fictional detective, Inspector Rebus is a Hibs fan.

 

No he is not.

 

As someone esle would say 100% FACT.

 

Seriously he is not a Hibby in the books (leaning towards Hearts) but that fecker Danny Boyle made him a Hibby when doing TV.

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When I was in Germany for the world cup I was speaking to an American guy and a German in a bar. The conversation turned to club football and I was asked if I supported Celtic or Rangers, obviously I replied "neither....the mighty Heart Of Midlothian"

 

The American went on to say "Oh yeh...you guys booed the pope! Do you all hate the Catholics?"

 

Like it or not, in the wider scale of things this is the reputation Hearts have, not only in the rest of the UK but further afield. Ian Rankin stating this on BBC further cements the reputation Hearts have in the wider population.

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When I was in Germany for the world cup I was speaking to an American guy and a German in a bar. The conversation turned to club football and I was asked if I supported Celtic or Rangers, obviously I replied "neither....the mighty Heart Of Midlothian"

 

The American went on to say "Oh yeh...you guys booed the pope! Do you all hate the Catholics?"

 

Like it or not, in the wider scale of things this is the reputation Hearts have, not only in the rest of the UK but further afield. Ian Rankin stating this on BBC further cements the reputation Hearts have in the wider population.

 

total pony

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Ally Alexander

In his first few Rebus books Rankin casts rebus as going to watch Hearts but he so lapses. Think it has a lot to do with Rankin creating Rebus as an outsider. He mentions that all (or most) of the Fettes Senior officers as Hearts fan and thus would be against the grain for Rebus to be one of the crowd.

 

Whether you believe it or not, the perception in Scotland is that Hearts are a Protestant club. While it has never had a sectarian policy, at certain times it has attracted a large portion of "loyalist" fans.

 

However I reckon we are being al ittle over-sensitive. Rankin uses the perceived allegiances of Hearts and Hibs fans to illustrate a facet of the dichotomy of Edinburgh Society that he bases his Rebus novels on. Unfortunately removed from this context it becomes a far more contenious remark.

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100% accurate. Can't argue with, or criticise, anyone for stating facts. Fact.

 

I'm surprised it took you so long, Therapist. Fact.

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I'm surprised it took you so long, Therapist. Fact.

 

I think on the whole this thread has been debated in a fair and balanced way. Now I wonder why that might be?

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I'm surprised it took you so long, Therapist.

 

I've been out of Old Blighty on holiday for the last two weeks and keeping track of KB wasn't my top priority. :o

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I think on the whole this thread has been debated in a fair and balanced way. Now I wonder why that might be?

 

You're surely not suggesting that Therapist's absence has anything to do with that?

 

He's always objectivity personified. Fact.:)

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Commander Harris
In his first few Rebus books Rankin casts rebus as going to watch Hearts but he so lapses. Think it has a lot to do with Rankin creating Rebus as an outsider. He mentions that all (or most) of the Fettes Senior officers as Hearts fan and thus would be against the grain for Rebus to be one of the crowd.

 

Whether you believe it or not, the perception in Scotland is that Hearts are a Protestant club. While it has never had a sectarian policy, at certain times it has attracted a large portion of "loyalist" fans.

 

However I reckon we are being al ittle over-sensitive. Rankin uses the perceived allegiances of Hearts and Hibs fans to illustrate a facet of the dichotomy of Edinburgh Society that he bases his Rebus novels on. Unfortunately removed from this context it becomes a far more contenious remark.

 

I think that's a fair point tbh.

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I think that's a fair point tbh.

 

Not really as it is complete bollocks!

 

If Rankin wants to make allusions that portray his Jeckyll and Hyde view of Edinburgh he should use ones that are correct.

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Commander Harris
Not really as it is complete bollocks!

 

If Rankin wants to make allusions that portray his Jeckyll and Hyde view of Edinburgh he should use ones that are correct.

indeed. I've already said it's disapointing that he said what he said but it was in the context of his Jeckyll and Hyde view of Edinburgh, which, incidentally, is also complete bollocks.

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100% accurate. Can't argue with, or criticise, anyone for stating facts. Fact.

 

Would you consider yourself to be protestant Therapist?

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Not really as it is complete bollocks!

 

If Rankin wants to make allusions that portray his Jeckyll and Hyde view of Edinburgh he should use ones that are correct.

 

Yes Indeed!

 

Hearts vs Hibs isn't a trivial matter of Protestant vs Catholic

 

It's Good versus Evil

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I still think too many posters are missing the point that it isn't as simple as Protestant Vs Catholic.

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I still think too many posters are missing the point that it isn't as simple as Protestant Vs Catholic.

 

I think the point is that we all know that perfectly well. Ian Rankin, however, is a different story.

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indeed. I've already said it's disapointing that he said what he said but it was in the context of his Jeckyll and Hyde view of Edinburgh, which, incidentally, is also complete bollocks.

 

I think Mr Rankin fancies himself as a modern day RLS....:rolleyes:

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Seymour M Hersh

The complete fan dan who presents that load of pesh had a rant about us a few years ago. Said we we worse than der hun for sectarianism iirc. Pathetic little Croatian mutant! Has he not left his wife for his co-presenter the NI bint who, if she was chocolate, would be too busy eating herself to present the show.

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MacDonald Jardine
The complete fan dan who presents that load of pesh had a rant about us a few years ago. Said we we worse than der hun for sectarianism iirc. Pathetic little Croatian mutant! Has he not left his wife for his co-presenter the NI bint who, if she was chocolate, would be too busy eating herself to present the show.

 

Sectarianism = bad.

Racism = not a problem apparently.

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...Whether you believe it or not, the perception in Scotland is that Hearts are a Protestant club. While it has never had a sectarian policy, at certain times it has attracted a large portion of "loyalist" fans...

 

What times are these?

 

AFAIA, the club only started to be perceived as having 'loyalist' fans after the troubles started in N.I., i.e. around 100 years after the club was formed.

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What times are these?

 

AFAIA, the club only started to be perceived as having 'loyalist' fans after the troubles started in N.I., i.e. around 100 years after the club was formed.

 

And what the hell any of that had (or has) to do with Hearts, their fans, Edinburgh or football...I'm still not sure....

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Broxburn Jambo
I am a Hearts fan

I am a mediocre guitar player.

 

I don't flaunt my guitar playing at Tynecastle. :cool_shades:

 

I don't flaunt my political or religious beliefs at Tynecastle but neither do I feel the need to apologise for them or feel guilty for them.

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I don't flaunt my political or religious beliefs at Tynecastle but neither do I feel the need to apologise for them or feel guilty for them.

 

It wasn't meant to be a dig at you tbh.

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I started to support Hearts, long before I was aware of religion, which I think would apply to most fans.

 

We should take great pride that we welcome supporters of all religions. I am a bit surprised that if not guided by parents, why a free thinking Scottish person would chose a team called "Ireland" over a team called Heart of Midlothian.

 

I am now aware of religion, I still support Hearts.

 

I cannot see the connection between the 2, incidentally I have given up on religion! I will never give up on Hearts! (Thank God!)

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Problems arise with certain people when the extent of this religious interest IS the team that they support. That's the way I see it and I'm quite sure that real catholics and protestants have their own problem with this too. When the only aspect of your life affected by religion is football, the truth of the matter is that you're probably not really religious at all.

 

But I suspect they already know that perfectly well. :rolleyes:

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Colonel Kurtz
Problems arise with certain people when the extent of this religious interest IS the team that they support. That's the way I see it and I'm quite sure that real catholics and protestants have their own problem with this too. When the only aspect of your life affected by religion is football, the truth of the matter is that you're probably not really religious at all.

 

But I suspect they already know that perfectly well. :rolleyes:

 

The difference is between religion and faith.

In a football context ,Tommy Burns was a man of faith,who would never demean his faith by crossing himself at a football match,as only a religous bufoon would do that

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Problems arise with certain people when the extent of this religious interest IS the team that they support. That's the way I see it and I'm quite sure that real catholics and protestants have their own problem with this too. When the only aspect of your life affected by religion is football, the truth of the matter is that you're probably not really religious at all.

 

But I suspect they already know that perfectly well. :rolleyes:

 

Yep.

 

For the most part, sectarianism at football has almost nothing to do with religion.

 

Its just a vehicle for those who wish to be part of something, and to have a go at the opposition.

 

if it wasn't faux religious zeal, it would be something else.

 

Its convenient and easy to hide behind as 'legitimate' after all, how can you discriminate someone for their religious beliefs?

 

Its been said before, but those who genuinely hold such beliefs are less worrying. Its the monkeys who tag along, as brainwashed into and jump on board a bandwagon of ignorant and spite driven beliefs who espouse it louder and prouder than anyone else, but who don't actually have a clue what they are on about. They preach hate and division by accident, all because they are too dumb to think for themselves.

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Yep.

 

For the most part, sectarianism at football has almost nothing to do with religion.

 

Its just a vehicle for those who wish to be part of something, and to have a go at the opposition.

 

if it wasn't faux religious zeal, it would be something else.

 

Its convenient and easy to hide behind as 'legitimate' after all, how can you discriminate someone for their religious beliefs?

 

Its been said before, but those who genuinely hold such beliefs are less worrying. Its the monkeys who tag along, as brainwashed into and jump on board a bandwagon of ignorant and spite driven beliefs who espouse it louder and prouder than anyone else, but who don't actually have a clue what they are on about. They preach hate and division by accident, all because they are too dumb to think for themselves.

 

That's exactly it. How can you possibly criticise someone simply for expressing what their faith means to them? Pfft. Quite easily, when the extent of their faith is singing songs and waving flags at a football match.

 

As Colonel Kurtz said, people with real faith must shudder in horror at this stuff.

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So you're both wrong!

 

Any argument can be supported, (but not necessarily proved), by examples, and there will be supporters who align themselves with Hearts for religious reasons, but in terms of the sectarianism which has fans from all over the country, (the world even), supporting one or other of the Old Firm, we are a long way from that sort of bigotry.

 

I do not agree with the senario painted by Rankin that Edinburgh football fans are divided on sectarian lines, and regret that he has chosen to plant that notion in the minds of viewers nationwide.

 

P.S. If my memory serves me well, it was the TV. writers who chose to make Rebus a Hibby. I don't remember if Rankin's books reveal who he supports.

 

I too have read most of the Rebus books, & IIRC, it was his Female Detective Sergeant that was the Hibby. Nowhere in the books does it say who he supports. Perhaps a bit of licence adopted by the TV scriptwriters is to blame.

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Ally Alexander
What times are these?

 

AFAIA, the club only started to be perceived as having 'loyalist' fans after the troubles started in N.I., i.e. around 100 years after the club was formed.

 

 

I start to attend matches regularly at Tynecastle in 1960 and can assure you than there was an element of our support that sang sectarian songs then.

 

Possibly less prevalent by the late 60s early 70s but resurfaced in the 80s. A small but vocal minority but unfortunately there nevertheless. The odd thing is it always seems to be mostly adolescents to what could loosely be described as young adults taking part.

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Colonel Kurtz
I start to attend matches regularly at Tynecastle in 1960 and can assure you than there was an element of our support that sang sectarian songs then.

 

Possibly less prevalent by the late 60s early 70s but resurfaced in the 80s. A small but vocal minority but unfortunately there nevertheless. The odd thing is it always seems to be mostly adolescents to what could loosely be described as young adults taking part.

 

You are right,the things which caused an increase were segregation and the behaaviour of The Tims.

I recall being amazed that they were allowed en masse to sing about Mountbattens murder at Tynecastle just after the event, some Hearts fans reaction was to embrace loyayist ideals

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MacDonald Jardine
The difference is between religion and faith.

In a football context ,Tommy Burns was a man of faith,who would never demean his faith by crossing himself at a football match,as only a religous bufoon would do that

 

Apart from the time he did at Tynecastle in front of the shed.

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Apart from the time he did at Tynecastle in front of the shed.

 

Or Peter Grant and Tommy Coyne:mad: :mad:

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I start to attend matches regularly at Tynecastle in 1960 and can assure you than there was an element of our support that sang sectarian songs then.

 

Possibly less prevalent by the late 60s early 70s but resurfaced in the 80s. A small but vocal minority but unfortunately there nevertheless. The odd thing is it always seems to be mostly adolescents to what could loosely be described as young adults taking part.

 

So, prior to the 60's, was there a 'loyalist' element prevalent at Tynie.

 

My old man can't recall any prior to the troubles and my Granddad can't remember any during the years before or after WWII.

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Yeah, you're right - it would take someone way smarter than Einstein to ascertain that Hearts are "predominantly supported by Protestants" without some sort of research being undertaken...:rolleyes:

 

Fair enough though, you have your views and I've my own - personally, I'm not religious in any way at all. But I certainly never have, and never will, view Heart of Midlothian as a 'Protestant' club.

 

I know you haven`t accused me of saying so, but for the record i never said Hearts were a Protestant club.

 

All i said was i think if you were to do a survey you`d find most Hearts fans who have a religious background would be Protestant.

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Your puting your head in the sand if you think Hearts aren`t predominantly supported by Protestants. Yes, there are many RC`s aswell and i know some lads who are but the reason Hearts are this way is because of the way it all started.

 

I`m not saying some of our founder members weren`t RC, they may well have been, but with the introduction of Hibs into Edinburgh and iniially being looked upon as the outsiders i`m sure many Protestants chose Hearts as their team because of the sectarian problems of that time.

 

Now, i`d say there`s more of a balance amongst the Hibs support because Edinburgh is very much a Church of Scotland dominated city.

 

Hearts have never ever given an indictation that they are swayed either way as a club but are probably more Proddy by default.

 

 

Agreed. Everyone is trying to deny the unavoidable truth here but the point we're missing is the difference between Edinburgh and Glasgow--

 

In Glasgow the glaring divide between the teams is a genuine problem and causes all sorts of violence etc

 

In Edinburgh, yes there is somewhat of a divide, but does it actually cause any problems?

 

Maybe you think I'm being totally ignorant but I work in an office where about 75% of the employees are hibees (don't ask me why) and I'd say at least half come from a RC background and they know I'm from a protestant family (though christened I am actually atheist myself) and we have a laugh about it and there is no ill-feeling, just a lot of tongue-in-cheek banter, but we're all mates about it.

 

Therefore .. what's the issue?

:peepwall:

 

 

Edit: for what it's worth, I would like to add that Rankin is a tosser for saying that on TV

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I'd say a Protestant would sway towards Hearts and a Catholic Hibs.

 

This does not mean each set of fans are stricly divided by religion though, as this is nonsense.

 

I'd bet you anything that Hearts have more Protestant fans than any other religion though.

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I'd say a Protestant would sway towards Hearts and a Catholic Hibs.

 

This does not mean each set of fans are stricly divided by religion though, as this is nonsense.

 

I'd bet you anything that Hearts have more Protestant fans than any other religion though.

 

I'd be surprised if either Hearts or Hibs have many religious fans at all, to be honest.

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