Illegal War

[Seats]

I love this phrase (which has come up on another thread recently). Can someone explain the difference between a legal war and an illegal war please? Surely, one side is always doing something illegal that causes the other side to fight them.

 

Surely war by definition is outside of the law (killing folk isnae very guid generally). Ok, I'm sure I'm gonna hear about the geneva convention and all of that, but that is simply guidelines on how to do it. If a country at war breaks the geneva convention, what are you gonna do about it - go to war with them?

 

[K1874M]

I love this phrase (which has come up on another thread recently). Can someone explain the difference between a legal war and an illegal war please? Surely, one side is always doing something illegal that causes the other side to fight them.

 

Surely war by definition is outside of the law (killing folk isnae very guid generally). Ok, I'm sure I'm gonna hear about the geneva convention and all of that, but that is simply guidelines on how to do it. If a country at war breaks the geneva convention, what are you gonna do about it - go to war with them?

 

 

You answered your own question.

[The Doctor]

Is there not something to do with the UN not sanctioning the invasion of Iraq.

[dannyprecious]

Invading another country to in order to occupy it and loot it's natural resources.

[Deek]

Invading another country to in order to occupy it and loot it's natural resources.

 

You said on a post last night that the war in Afghanistan was illegal. But it doesent fall into the above category?

[dannyprecious]

You said on a post last night that the war in Afghanistan was illegal. But it doesent fall into the above category?

 

Because it constitutes unjustified aggression and has lead to the deaths of many civilians through the bombing campaign and by preventing humanitarian aid workers from bringing food into the country.

[Deek]

Because it constitutes unjustified aggression and has lead to the deaths of many civilians through the bombing campaign and by preventing humanitarian aid workers from bringing food into the country.

 

Was that a lift straight from the Socialist Worker?

 

"unjustified aggression and has lead to the deaths of many civilians"

 

 

Wasent that what happened in New York leading to the war in Afghanistan. Perhaps the world should have ignored it and let Al Queda grow stronger from there.

[dannyprecious]

Was that a lift straight from the Socialist Worker?

 

"unjustified aggression and has lead to the deaths of many civilians"

 

 

Wasent that what happened in New York leading to the war in Afghanistan. Perhaps the world should have ignored it and let Al Queda grow stronger from there.

 

Al Queda was funded by the Americans, they gave Bin Laden Billions of Dollars!

 

Attacking Afganistan has not sorted out Al Queda, it has made it worse!

[Deek]

Al Queda was funded by the Americans, they gave Bin Laden Billions of Dollars!

 

Attacking Afganistan has not sorted out Al Queda, it has made it worse!

 

So that justifies the 9/11 attacks then?

[Coco]

Long and very interesting legal history on this issue. In the past 'just' wars were based on religion etc.

 

It is a very complicated issue.

 

Nowadays there are 2 kinds of armed aggression which are legal. The first is the right of self defence (proportionate). And the second is where the action is sanctioned by the UN Security Council.

 

However, the UK and the US have been flouting international law for years. Blair's wars in Sierra Leone, Kosovo, Iraq and Afghanistan were probably all contrary to international law.

[dannyprecious]

So that justifies the 9/11 attacks then?

 

Of course it doesn't! I never said it did!

[Boaby Ewing]

So Danny, what would you have done in the weeks and months immediately after 9/11?

 

Written an angry letter filled with explanation marks?

 

Tried to get Mr. Bin Laden to attend anger management courses?

[Deek]

Of course it doesn't! I never said it did!

 

So what should the world have done about Al Queda in Afghanistan?

 

Should they have done nothing and let them continue to remain there and grow in strength. Let them carry out more and more bombings.

 

Dont get me wrong, I disagree totally with the reasons Iraq was invaded as I feel it has made the whole situation worse, but I can see the justification for Afghanistan.

[dannyprecious]

So Danny, what would you have done in the weeks and months immediately after 9/11?

 

Written an angry letter filled with explanation marks?

 

Tried to get Mr. Bin Laden to attend anger management courses?

 

The reason Al Queda and Bin Laden are so popular amongst some Muslims is because they speak out against a lot of injustices in the middle east. Like the Palestinians living in abject poverty etc... I would've tried to sort these problems out and not practices any un-ethical foreign policy (which America was doing before 9/11). I also wouldn't have given Bin Laden billions of Dollars!

[Deek]

The reason Al Queda and Bin Laden are so popular amongst some Muslims is because they speak out against a lot of injustices in the middle east. Like the Palestinians living in abject poverty etc... I would've tried to sort these problems out and not practices any un-ethical foreign policy (which America was doing before 9/11). I also wouldn't have given Bin Laden billions of Dollars!

 

You havent answered the question though Danny, what would you have done after 9/11?

[Boaby Ewing]

The reason Al Queda and Bin Laden are so popular amongst some Muslims is because they speak out against a lot of injustices in the middle east. Like the Palestinians living in abject poverty etc... I would've tried to sort these problems out and not practices any un-ethical foreign policy (which America was doing before 9/11). I also wouldn't have given Bin Laden billions of Dollars!

 

 

 

The 'billions of dollars' line is a feint - it was during a very different time when the Taliban/Mujahideen were fighting against the Soviets. Given the Cold War tensions of the time and the damage the communists were inflicting on Afghanistan it was justified.

 

It expedited the collapse of the Soviet bloc, a truly fecked up super power against which the numerous 'sins' of the US pale into almost insignificance.

 

As for Bin Laden and the rest of his Islamofacist chums being motivated by the situation in Palestine - simplistic poppycock. And even if that was the case, the situation in Afghanistan under the Taliban was at least as bad as anything you're seeing in Palestine now.

[super_vlad]

You havent answered the question though Danny, what would you have done after 9/11?

 

9/11 was a totally unacceptable action by a 'group of ****' !not a nation, the afgan people never said they were at war with the us ! If i'm correct none of the 911 folk were from afganastion. We went to war with them because the usa thought it was a easy win, which would have appeased the nation and the hawks within the white house. We were led to believe that it was a scene from a bond movie where the evil villian has a high tech fortess to protect him and his henchmen ! What we found (and the us knew this) where ****ty caves and mud houses which we bombed to hell. It was the us who years ealier had created thier fortess and give them thier weapeons, they knew were they were but they chose a route of action which would make the war look good.

 

To get back to your question, then i think you will find that the palenstin people have being dying for the 30 years because of the illegal war supported fully by the us and the uk.

 

I put it to you, (i'm not sure of your background btw) that if some people came along and kicked every scots man out of this country and pick us all in to the highlands saying that 2000 years ago this was thier home, how would you react, not only this, but they have prison by placing a large fench right along the highlands so you can not move. Now to top it all they destroy all the buildings and houses to make it that you or any other scotsman has never lived there, you have no rights, in what was your own country, even more you have no rights in the eyes of the international world, what are you options ?

 

Obviously not everything is black and white, but i find it really hard to take that most people do not see the palenstine problem for what it is, try putting yourself in thier shoes and tell me what you would do. In 1983 yasir arfat told the UN that he had a gun in one hand and a olive branch in the other, it was up to the UN to decide which one he used! since the 90s israel has being guilty of breaking UN orders but nothing has ever being done for them to bring thier house in order ! Every day there are more stories like this -

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7212394.stm

 

Please don't think i'm being one-sided, there is and can never be excuses for suicde bombers ! But how do you fight tanks and war planes with sticks and stones !

 

again i don't think i have answer your question, i would have forced a peace in the middle east then witha coalition of arabs countries i would have worked to break the network ! If we have brought peace to the middle east we would have stopped the modrates following the extremists into terrorism !

 

Again feel free to disagree with me, i can only offer my thoughts -

 

 

BTW - The oklama bombings causes the same amount of deaths but we did not invade germany or texas because it was caused by neo-nazis

[dannyprecious]

You havent answered the question though Danny, what would you have done after 9/11?

 

If i was Bush after 9/11, I would've been mad at my papa for the first gulf war which caused 9/11.

[dannyprecious]

The 'billions of dollars' line is a feint - it was during a very different time when the Taliban/Mujahideen were fighting against the Soviets. Given the Cold War tensions of the time and the damage the communists were inflicting on Afghanistan it was justified.

 

It expedited the collapse of the Soviet bloc, a truly fecked up super power against which the numerous 'sins' of the US pale into almost insignificance.

 

As for Bin Laden and the rest of his Islamofacist chums being motivated by the situation in Palestine - simplistic poppycock. And even if that was the case, the situation in Afghanistan under the Taliban was at least as bad as anything you're seeing in Palestine now.

 

Bin Laden isn't personally motivate by the situation in Palestine, but the support for Al Queda is growing because of the situation in Palestine.

 

Justified eh? Now that America have funded these Islamofacists with billions of dollars?

[Deek]

9/11 was a totally unacceptable action by a 'group of ****' !not a nation, the afgan people never said they were at war with the us !

 

Al Queda was based there with the support of the Taleban goverment. It was they who attacked New York and Washington.

 

To get back to your question, then i think you will find that the palenstin people have being dying for the 30 years because of the illegal war supported fully by the us and the uk.

 

I have never mentioned Palestine in this thread.

 

But how do you fight tanks and war planes with sticks and stones !

 

You fly jets into buildings and bomb trains and tubes.

 

Perhaps if Al Queda hadent attacked the USA, Tanzania, Kenya etc there would have been no invasion of Afghanistan.

 

again i don't think i have answer your question, i would have forced a peace in the middle east then witha coalition of arabs countries i would have worked to break the network ! If we have brought peace to the middle east we would have stopped the modrates following the extremists into terrorism !

 

I think peace in the middle east will never be possible until the Palestinians have there own country. Even then I am not sure that we can have peace.

 

 

BTW - The oklama bombings causes the same amount of deaths but we did not invade germany or texas because it was caused by neo-nazis.

 

Why invade Germany? Is it a Nazi country, I thought it was illegal to be a Nazi in Germany. As for Texas, I thought it was part of the USA with a more than sixable black population. So why invade there.

 

 

I have tried to answer most of your points.

[Deek]

Bin Laden isn't personally motivate by the situation in Palestine, but the support for Al Queda is growing because of the situation in Palestine.

 

Justified eh? Now that America have funded these Islamofacists with billions of dollars?

 

Hang on Danny, what is justified?

 

You fund Bin Laden in the war against communism, then when it is finished, it is justified that he attacks you?

 

Thats mad if that is what you are getting at.

[dannyprecious]

Please do not make it sound like this all started on 9/11!!

 

It did not, is started 40/50 years ago and has been going on all this time, mainly due to unethical foreign policy on behalf of the United States.

[dannyprecious]

Hang on Danny, what is justified?

 

You fund Bin Laden in the war against communism, then when it is finished, it is justified that he attacks you?

 

Thats mad if that is what you are getting at.

 

Giving billions of dollars to a bunch of evil islamofascists was not a good move by the United States.

[Miller Jambo 60]

Because it constitutes unjustified aggression and has lead to the deaths of many civilians through the bombing campaign and by preventing humanitarian aid workers from bringing food into the country.

 

A certain bampot nutter called saddam Hussain killed more of his own before the war.

Sick of this left socialist rubbish.

Get a free scarf they are cool:)

[bistokid]

The Americans have pillaged the World community for decades, shown complete hypocrisy, continually supporting one evil dictator against another as to whatever means benefits the US. Many would argue that 9/11 was a long time coming. Afganistan & Iraq are both politically and morally corrupt wars which can never been won.

[dannyprecious]

A certain bampot nutter called saddam Hussain killed more of his own before the war.

Sick of this left socialist rubbish.

Get a free scarf they are cool:)

 

Guess how Sddam Hussain got into power?

 

Yes, you guessed it!

 

The United States put him in power in Iraq and sold him chemical weapons and guns!

 

Touche!

[dannyprecious]

The Americans have pillaged the World community for decades, shown complete hypocrisy, continually supporting one evil dictator against another as to whatever means benefits the US. Many would argue that 9/11 was a long time coming. Afganistan & Iraq are both politically and morally corrupt wars which can never been won.

 

Yeah, they oppose Iran, yet support Saudi Arabia.

All of America's "enemies" are former friends of the USA.

[Miller Jambo 60]

Guess how Sddam Hussain got into power?

 

Yes, you guessed it!

 

The United States put him in power in Iraq and sold him chemical weapons and guns!

 

Touche!

 

That argument is gash he would have got them somewhere else great video of him swinging a total animal.

As for the Taliban no reserve that for another rant

[super_vlad]

I have tried to answer most of your points.

 

Again we come back to the circle of violence, My point was that this has being going on for 30 years and now after years of abuses, the nutters have turned into armed nutters with a bone to pick with the west.

 

When we went to war with iraq i said all this will do would mean more haterd for the west and more mordrate people turning to arms ! I also said that this would mean we would be tragets here which proved right.

 

BTW - The Taliban were a bunch of tribesman who had tooken power by force, no even pakistan would deal with them, to hold the ordinary afgans responible for there actions is inexcuseable. Even then tho, i'm sure the tailban claimed they had nothing to do with 9/11 and offered to help the us forces, when it became clear that the us was not prepared to listen but had set it sights on the afganastion then the taliban changed thier tune. The people who are fight today are not bin ladens man or taliban it is ordinary afgans who want the us out of thier country. again you points are vaild, my point about the neo-nazi was that they were responeable for the bombings, they were based in texas and went around openly shout thier vile message. Even after the bombing the US govt. has never attempt to close them down or to bring the others to trial in the US ? Why do you think this was ?

[bistokid]

That argument is gash he would have got them somewhere else great video of him swinging a total animal.

As for the Taliban no reserve that for another rant

 

What a ****ing stupid statement.

[dannyprecious]

That argument is gash he would have got them somewhere else great video of him swinging a total animal.

As for the Taliban no reserve that for another rant

 

 

The camera never lies!

[Miller Jambo 60]

What a ****ing stupid statement.

 

Why did you like the animal i say animal but my tropical fish have more emotion you guys want to wake up we are at war with nutters.

As for his hanging should bring it back for serial killers and pedos.

[Miller Jambo 60]

What a ****ing stupid statement.

 

Should you not be at school

[dannyprecious]

Why did you like the animal i say animal but my tropical fish have more emotion you guys want to wake up we are at war with nutters.

As for his hanging should bring it back for serial killers and pedos.

 

Over 1.1 Million innocent people have died as a result of the wars in Iraq and Afganistan. Don't talk to me about emotion!

 

Should you not be at school

 

That's completley irrelevant.

[dannyprecious]

You neo-cons go on about getting rid of Al Queda!

 

Well guess what, you failed!

You *****ed it up big style and the world is *****ed!

 

On your bike Bush! I hope Barrack Obama or Ron Paul can sort out this mess, god willing!

[Miller Jambo 60]

Over 1.1 Million innocent people have died as a result of the wars in Iraq and Afganistan. Don't talk to me about emotion!

 

 

 

That's completley irrelevant.

 

Hows London mate would never live in that shat hole anyway leftie you watch your muslim pals in London for the next attack.

So brainwashed smell the coffee mate.

Hearts 2 Huns 0 30/01/08

[BlackJAC?]

Because it constitutes unjustified aggression and has lead to the deaths of many civilians through the bombing campaign and by preventing humanitarian aid workers from bringing food into the country.

 

 

Well, that describes 99% (aye, that figure was pulled from thin air) of every war that's plagued this earth, and as recourses become even more scarce, then I suspect similar conflicts to what we are witnessing in Iraq will become common place.

 

The fact of the matter is, who's in a position to stop the Americans? Like the Romans, Greeks, Mongolians et al before them, I suspect no one.

[bistokid]

Should you not be at school

 

Doug46, your precious. Special even.

[dannyprecious]

Hows London mate would never live in that shat hole anyway leftie you watch your muslim pals in London for the next attack.

So brainwashed smell the coffee mate.

Hearts 2 Huns 0 30/01/08

 

For your information, I live in Kingston Upon Thames, one of the more affluent areas of London. It has a lovely John Lewis and The Bentals Centre. Better than East Craigs.

 

You don't sound very intelligent, making stupid racist statements like that.

[Boris]

I think that under International Law there was a "right" to attack Afghanistan that wasn't there for Iraq.

 

The whole politics of the region is tied up in the Arab/Israeli gig, but that is nigh on insoluble.

 

Yes, US foreign policy is murky, however as I said above, they were entitled to attack Afghanistan as the Afghan Government had covertly allowed the group who attacked the USA to be based there.

 

Given the Taliban's politics there was also an argument for doing them anyway, international law or not.

 

Finally, despite institutions like the UN existing, strength will be the ultimate arbiter in any dispute. Does anyone really think the world will impose sanctions military or otherwise on the US, Russia or China (for example)?

[BlackJAC?]

You neo-cons go on about getting rid of Al Queda!

 

Well guess what, you failed!

You *****ed it up big style and the world is *****ed!

 

On your bike Bush! I hope Barrack Obama or Ron Paul can sort out this mess, god willing!

 

And the world wasn't ****ed up before Bush came to power?

 

Aye, bring back the good old days when Fascism and Nationalism was all the rage, it was peaceful then.

[Miller Jambo 60]

For your information, I live in Kingston Upon Thames, one of the more affluent areas of London. It has a lovely John Lewis and The Bentals Centre. Better than East Craigs.

 

You don't sound very intelligent, making stupid racist statements like that.

 

Sorry mate East Craigs is a Jambo Fortress rather be here than your Chelsea gay boy mob.

Going tommorrow 5 of us from East Craigs Beruit .:Hearts Man spotrun::Hearts Man spotrun:

[dannyprecious]

Sorry mate East Craigs is a Jambo Fortress rather be here than your Chelsea gay boy mob.

Going tommorrow 5 of us from East Craigs Beruit .:Hearts Man spotrun::Hearts Man spotrun:

 

Kingston Upon Thames

 

 

[dannyprecious]

London

 

 

 

[dannyprecious]

And the world wasn't ****ed up before Bush came to power?

 

Aye, bring back the good old days when Fascism and Nationalism was all the rage, it was peaceful then.

 

If you read my other posts then you will realise that these problems have been around for 40/50 years at least.

[Boris]

London

 

 

 

 

All built on the exploitation of the workers throughout the globe.

 

Nothing to be proud of.

[dannyprecious]

All built on the exploitation of the workers throughout the globe.

 

Nothing to be proud of.

 

Better than East Craigs

[Miller Jambo 60]

London

 

 

 

 

Very nice been to London once still A SHATHOLE too many poor people in cardboard boxes and whats a leftie like you doing in a tory area.

New labour ha ha

I was a shop steward for 8 years and my intelligence is average but obviously

you are having trouble with your political views.

[dannyprecious]

Very nice been to London once still A SHATHOLE too many poor people in cardboard boxes and whats a leftie like you doing in a tory area.

New labour ha ha

I was a shop steward for 8 years and my intelligence is average but obviously

you are having trouble with your political views.

 

How dare you call me a leftie, I'm a paleoconservative.

[Boris]

Better than East Craigs

 

Is it?

 

I was a worker at East Craigs Safeway. A lot of my friends went to EC primary and lived at EC.

 

What you seem to forget most of all though is that EC is in Edinburgh.

 

That trumps anything and everything.