'Scottish, Not British.'

[Toggie88]

I wish the Braveheart brigade would really study Scottish history pre 1707 and see what a truly backward, p*sspoor, divided, clannish bunch of no-hopers we all were.

 

How many of our Kings died violent deaths? James the First, Second, Third and Fourth all died violently. If it was not fighting the English, it was fighting there own lords. So? What's your point? Should we stop being a democratic nation so that another fascist dictator doesn't get to power?

 

The Lowlanders despised the Highlands and vice versa. All this modern kilt - wearing crap is utterly embarassing. More Scots fought on the Government side at Culloden than English. Scots were so strife stricken by internal squabbling and civil wars, that the country could never get on its feet. Darien was a classic example of Scots bungling which is conveniently blamed on the English which is partly true, but was still a total feck up which bankrupped the nation to the extent that the Union was inevitable.

 

Scotland was bankrupt but the people weren't - The UK is skint just now. It's got a massive deficit and has the more debt than any other nation on earth, bar one.

 

Since the Union Scots went into the world and left their mark to an extent that they never could on their own and like no other people on earth for a such a small country. Canada and New Zealand were practically created by Scots. Scots medicine, science and engineering lead the world. And remember, the English are the most tolerant nation on earth. They allowed so many Scots amongst others to play big parts in everything. Because they recognised our talents once we stopped fighting amongst ourselves and getting NO WHERE. So what has it done in the past 50 years?

 

We have always been a poverty stricken country. Even today. We are the sick man of Europe with a National Health Service where any Junkie, Jakey or layabout can fully rely on handouts costing them nothing. Even with the NHS the general health of the nation is terrible as it has been for centuries. So where would fat Eck find the money to pay for this once the cord is cut from England. North Sea Oil? Balls. If he thinks BRITISH companies like BP Shell etc will allow these p*ssant wee nationalists to disturb the revenue they are earning they are deluded. So you're happy about a poverty strick nations? You're happy about being a 'the sick man of Europe'? We want something better than what we currently have! You clearly have no grasp of international law - the Oil companies don't really have a say on the sovereignty of a nation.

 

The English were a country that could unite in times of national crisis. The Scots were always divided preferring to fight each other. We really have not changed that much in all these hundreds of years. If you want to put your own and your children's future at risk over shortbread tin politics go ahead. Prove it? You're just making a blind assumption.

 

 

I will never relinquish my BRITISH passport, just like I will never leave SCOTLAND. I sweated blood for SCOTLAND as a kid and dont need lessons in NATIONALISM. I was put off that concept as a kid listening to Afrikaners going on about their identity and wars fought a century ago and wrongs committed againsts them ad nauseum. Little men. Little people. I think your understanding of Nationalism is completely thwarted. You're just as much a nationalist as me...you're a British Nationalist.

 

 

You clearly have a good grasp of history. However, none of this is relevant in this debate. Independence isn't about the past, it isn't about what has been achieved through the union. It's about the future, it's about our kids future and what we can achieve.

 

I think you're a smart guy - I would suggest going and researching the economic figures yourself.

 

Here's a wee essay to get you started.

 

The Budget (Scotland) Act 2006 states that the total resources apportioned to the Scottish Administration is ?25,463,337,000 - plus one or two other considerations involving public borrowing relating to the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body and the Forestry Commission etc - or in other words around about ?26bn. In 2003 tax revenue from Scotland (excluding North Sea Oil) was ?34bn, which today (excluding oil) has risen to nearer ?38bn. So yes, Scotland gets a proportion of its moneys back. The rest is retained, administred and spent by Westminster "on behalf of Scottish residents" - or in other words forcing Scots to contribute to a massive military network Scotland doesn't really need and massive International Diplomatic network which Scotland doesn't benefit from, or require when independence comes. So if one were to include oil (and I don't want to labour the oil point - I believe Scotland could manage just as well without oil) - HM Treasury estimate around about ?10bn this year, rising next year, the it is easy to see the mismatch of what Scotland gets to spend on itself and what it raises. Clearly anomalous.

 

Fact 1. Scotland has 8.6% of the total UK population. Fact 2. Scotland accounted for 10.91% of total UK taxation Revenues in 2001. Compare this to the figures for 1999:

 

The Total UK Taxation Revenues for the year to the 5th April 1999 were ?356,800.000 Million pounds (?356.8 Billions) let us take that figure represents 100% of the total Taxation. Scotland with 8.6% of the population contributed ?41,346,600 Million Pounds (?41.346Billions) or 11.6% of the total UK Tax revenues. In return, under the Barnet Formula, Scotland received ?12.2 Billion Pounds or 3.4%! To which must be added the Council taxes and rates making a total of nearly ?16 Bn.

 

I think it is a moot point whether Scotland does "rather well" out of the Barnett Formula - because I don't think Scotland's economy does well out of it. However considering that Scotland pays more in taxes per head, than large parts of the United Kingdom, and did pay massive fiscal surpluses for most of the last 30 years, I rather think we're entitled to all of our own wealth back, and the ability to use that to our own ends.

 

And incidentally the fact more is spent on health and education per head in Scotland has absolutely nothing to do with the Barnett Formula, which is designed to give Scotland/Wales/Northern Ireland a population based share of any increase in expenditure in England. Journalists and some politicians seem to think spending levels in Scotland and the Barnett Formula are the same thing - they're not.

 

First of all the Barnett Formula only deals with identifiable government expenditure, and not unidentifiable government expenditure. Secondly the Formula works a bit like this (the cookbooks way to understanding it). Scotland gets an annual block grant each year from the government - this year that grant stands at around ?26bn, which the Scottish executive gets to spend on what it likes. That grant is made up of two components (a) Historical levels of spending ( a population based share of the increase in UK government identifiable expenditure spent in ENGLAND. Say in England they decide to build 10 new hospitals at a cost of ?10bn - even though that policy has nothing to do with Scotland, because it represents an increase in English spending, Scotland will get a population based share of the ?10bn increase or around ?1bn, which will be tacked on to Scotland's budget which the Scottish Executive can spend on what they like - education for example (?1bn would go a huge way in Scottish education). Contrary to some speculation there is a brief assessment of needs, and this is taken into account in Scotland's Grant. Ergo the Barnett Formula DOES NOT autnmatically lead to greater per head expenditure - because it doesn't have to.

 

I fail to see how independence is not feasible - it is very feasible, it just needs the majority of the Scottish electorate to be trapped in this hopeless cycle of "we cannae dae it", "we're too poor, stupid and backward" and all the other latent rubbish that floats around on the subject. What is not feasible is having a fiscal arrangement that is detrimental to Scotland in this manner, affords no accountability, gives rise to inefficiency, and leaves us and our economy and fiscal stability to the mercy of others.

 

I agree that spending should be CUT, taxes should be CUT, because that is what Scotland needs - the Scottish Executive's budget has mushroomed from ?15bn in 1999, to ?26bn today. That is unsustainable, and to make matters worse that's happening within the union.

 

So here we have a public expenditure mechanism which floods Scotland's economy with public expenditure, rather than allowing it to grow - I think that's awful. I'll never stand up for Labour or the LibDems in the Scottish Parliament, but they have as much control over this formula as I do over the weather. Treasury rules stipulate each fiscal year the entirity of it must be spent and cannot be invested for the future.

 

I'll never understand why anyone agrees the Barnett Formula is good for Scotland. I'll also never understand why the electorate of Scotland are prepared to subordinate their own economic interests to the United Kingdom - which quite frankly doesn't care about us. Time for Scotland to act like a grown-up country, stand on its own two feet and yes make a lot of mistakes economically and otherwise, without interference from the rest of the UK.

[i8hibsh]

Who else has seen the massive amount of these stickers all over the place.. from trains and buses, to bus shelters and cars.

 

It's asthough Toggie's taken a fit.

 

What's the need?

 

Probably some cheap tactic from the fat fascist and his bigot brigade

 

they just come accross as idiots

[i8hibsh]

MOD EDIT We're not interested in all this sectarian ****.

 

A Scottish Republic will be won through diplomatic means! Not the medieval pish you're on about.

 

300 years on and no more further forward

 

what a campaign the fascists run

[Sheriff Fatman]

No you're not.

 

You're a subject.

 

No he's not.

 

All people born in the UK or British Empire were subjects up until 1949. In January 1949 all born in the UK became Citizens of the United Kingdom, whilst those born in the Empire remained British subjects.

 

Commonwealth countries since then have introduced their own nationality laws, so less and less British subjects exist and have become citizens of their own nation.

 

On the 1st of January 1983 the term Citizen of the United Kingdom was abolished and changed to British citizen. Also, all those who had been styled British subjects lost that title if they possessed any other Commonwealth nationality or Irish nationality.

 

The only people left who are British subjects are the very rare Anglo-Indians who do not have Indian citizenship or those born in southern Ireland before 1922 who haven't taken Irish citizenship.

[Toggie88]

300 years on and no more further forward

 

what a campaign the fascists run

 

I've already told you - learn what words mean before you use them.

[NEILY1874]

Probably some cheap tactic from the fat fascist and his bigot brigade

 

they just come accross as idiots

 

Coming from the man/boy who starts numerous threads a week about how much he hates this and that.

 

 

Oh the irony.

[Captain Lithuania]

Howzabout 'Scottish not English'. That is technically accurate I believe.

 

Anyway, people have the right to be Scottish, British or whatever they want. It is a free country.

 

Waaaay! Somone who thinks so. I personally am Scottish, I don't consider myself British. If you were to ask someone from outside the UK what they think about when they hear 'Britain' you'll get responses like: The Queen, England, London, Buckingham Palace. Tower Bridge, Big Ben, these are all English.

 

P.S I respect others decisions to call themselves British.

[MacDonald Jardine]

FJ, impressive post, but I'd like to reply to the above:

 

1. Medieval monarchy and lordship was a risky business. Can I refer you to the deaths of Edward II, Richard II, Henry VI, Richard III? Bother with the nobility? 'The Anarchy' due to King Stephen's War with Matilda and her followers; the first Baron's War of 1215-1217; the second Baron's War of 1264-1267; the so called 'Wars of the Roses' between 1455 and 1485.

 

2. Just not true. Scotland was in a very prosperous position in the thirteenth century - the invasion of 1296 was as much an economic disaster as a political and humanitarian one, following a century of peace. In times of peace, Scotland's eastern seaboard traded very profitably with our European neighbours. Unfortunately, we were physical neighbours with an extremely dynamic and aggressive nation state (one that nearly managed to throttle the life out of France, most of the while kicking the **** out of us, almost at will). The fact that Scotland's polity survived at all is remarkable, and testimony to inherent strength and resilience.

 

3. England uniting in the face of the national crisis of the Spanish threat in 1588 was so remarkable due to the divisions and bloodshed prior to, and following, that event. Witness: the English baronage inviting the heir of France to invade their country in 1215; the popularity of the rebel Simon de Montfort (Frenchman) before his death in 1265; the slaughter of the Yorkist/Lancastrian dynastic struggle in the fifteenth century; The Pilgrimage of Grace, 1536, put down with appalling savagery by the moderate Henry VIII; the Rising of the North, 1569, suppressed with equal zeal by his daughter, Elizabeth; the civil war of 1642 and 1651 between Parliamentarians and Royalists; the Monmouth rebellion of 1685; the southern panic in the face of the Jacobite invasion of 1745.

 

"The Scots were always divided preferring to fight each other" - National Covenant of 1638?

 

Thank goodness Scottish History is now being properly taught and researched in universities in Scotland and beyond. Schools are finally beginning to teach Scottish History. Hopefully Scots of all origin will have an objective, critical view of their own history. Their is much to be proud about, and there is much to be ashamed of, and from which to learn. They will know that 'Braveheart' is mostly offensive, inaccurate American fantasy, and that the 'Scotland's always been crap, and always will be' school of thought is as obsolete as it is subjective.

 

 

I agree with most of this but admirable as it was I wouldn't say the National Covenant was a good example of lessening divisions.

[Professor.Arturo]

The unionists on this thread are a continuation of what all unionists in Scotland and Westmister are doing, ie, running scared, and are coming out with the same spin and attempts to smear the SNP. Why? simple, they all know the SNP are getting more popular every day!

 

They also know (but will never admit) that SNP will win the referendum, and it scares the sh** out them.

 

2 or 3 years time we will live in an independant Scotland, get used to it....

 

....ok Therapist and his unionist apologists might not, no doubt they will find nice posh apartments in Milton Keynes.

[MacDonald Jardine]

The unionists on this thread are a continuation of what all unionists in Scotland and Westmister are doing, ie, running scared, and are coming out with the same spin and attempts to smear the SNP. Why? simple, they all know the SNP are getting more popular every day!

 

They also know (but will never admit) that SNP will win the referendum, and it scares the sh** out them.

 

2 or 3 years time we will live in an independant Scotland, get used to it....

 

....ok Therapist and his unionist apologists might not, no doubt they will find nice posh apartments in Milton Keynes.

 

So you tar all unionists with the same brush and make cheap jibes about posh apartments.

But it's the unionists who use smear tactics?

You couldn't make it up.

[heartgarfunkel]

I agree with most of this but admirable as it was I wouldn't say the National Covenant was a good example of lessening divisions.

 

You're spot on about its divisive consequences which were dire for many in the following decades. But its creation and signing was a remarkable affirmation of unity between nobility, church and commons, and many of its premises were radical in their limitation of monarchical power.

[Ribble]

The unionists on this thread are a continuation of what all unionists in Scotland and Westmister are doing, ie, running scared, and are coming out with the same spin and attempts to smear the SNP. Why? simple, they all know the SNP are getting more popular every day!

 

They also know (but will never admit) that SNP will win the referendum, and it scares the sh** out them.

 

2 or 3 years time we will live in an independant Scotland, get used to it....

 

....ok Therapist and his unionist apologists might not, no doubt they will find nice posh apartments in Milton Keynes.

 

What scares the **** out of me is not that I know the SNP will win the referendum but the mere possibility of it happening terrifies me!!

 

Can I ask what you think is so, so wrong with Scotland just now??

[Makween]

I don't see why so many consider the two to be mutually exclusive.

 

Scottish and British.

[Chester™]

So you tar all unionists with the same brush and make cheap jibes about posh apartments.

But it's the unionists who use smear tactics?

You couldn't make it up.

 

One thinks it may be a tongue in cheek jibe at those mentioned who constantly refer to how good they have it, how big their houses are and what latest appliances they have in their house. TBH, I wouldnt wish my worst enemy a trip to Milton Keynes. Its horrible and has more roundabouts than the New Towns put together.

 

Of course it might not be a jibe at all....

[Captain Lithuania]

What scares the **** out of me is not that I know the SNP will win the referendum but the mere possibility of it happening terrifies me!!

 

Can I ask what you think is so, so wrong with Scotland just now??

 

Hibs

[Professor.Arturo]

What scares the **** out of me is not that I know the SNP will win the referendum but the mere possibility of it happening terrifies me!!

 

Can I ask what you think is so, so wrong with Scotland just now??

 

Its improving now we have a decent party in charge

 

It will improve more once we have independence, or are you one of those unionists who seem to think the Scots are incapable or running their own independent country? that seems to be the whispered labour and tory party line.

[Ribble]

Its improving now we have a decent party in charge

 

It will improve more once we have independence, or are you one of those unionists who seem to think the Scots are incapable or running their own independent country? that seems to be the whispered labour and tory party line.

 

Things may well improve in an independant Scotland, also they may not! I was simply asking are things here so bad that we are compelled to take the risk?

 

As for whether or not we are capable of running our own country, I'm really not sure but what do we do if it turns out we can't? Try and reform the union in 20years?

[EuanD]

Im proud to be Scottish and British, im also proud to have spent time in the British armed forces.

[Patrick Bateman]

I'm still offended that nobody has pointed out the potentially offensive anti-welsh message of the aforementioned chalk-based graffiti

[southlondonjambo]

English & Proud.

 

Not British.

[southlondonjambo]

 

Fiercely proud to be Scottish but at the same time happy to be receiving generous handouts from London as part of Britain.

 

 

Corrected it for you there.

[Toggie88]

English & Proud.

 

Not British.

 

[heartgarfunkel]

English & Proud.

 

Not British.

 

Quite right mate.

[NEILY1874]

Quite right mate.

 

 

I agree.

 

Its strange how its all us nationalists who supposedly despise England that are giving the guy credit for being proud of his OWN country.

[heartgarfunkel]

I agree.

 

Its strange how its all us nationalists who supposedly despise England that are giving the guy credit for being proud of his OWN country.

 

England's a brilliant country. I love it. Love going there. Great people, great beer, great cheese, great castles, amazing history.

[Makween]

I agree.

 

Its strange how its all us nationalists who supposedly despise England that are giving the guy credit for being proud of his OWN country.

 

I just find it weird that so many aren't prepared to give credit to those whose perception of "their own country" is different to their own.

[Jambo_LuLu]

British on my passport. That's it. In my head and in my heart I am Scottish. I think that is all that matters! I certainly don't feel British!

[Greedy_Jambo]

As a Teenager applying for jobs ect, i was often asked what nationality i was. I would reply "Scottish".On more than one occasion i got a response of laughter and "no your not, your british". I just stared at them and said, no.. im scottish.

 

I know technically im British but i still think of my self as being scottish.

 

After listening to the debate on The real radio talk a lot of nonsense phone in... I thought i would make a thread.

 

Assuming you where born in scotland... are you scottish or british? or scottish 1st, british 2nd, or both scottish and british?

[Guest jambomickey]

100% scottish for me

[Boab]

Shed.

[Greedy_Jambo]

Shed.

 

Man,,, nobody looks at the shed.

[winston churchill]

as it says on my passport..........british.

[Greedy_Jambo]

Quote from a guy that phoned in real radio "Im scottish 1st, 2nd and 3rd and british purely by accident"

 

I quite liked that one.

[spennyboy]

I seen a sticker on a bus today that said 'this belongs to Lionel Ritchie'.

 

Probably the work of a long haired, bloody student.

 

I cringed.

 

I think I know who done that!! LOL

[Toggie88]

England's a brilliant country. I love it. Love going there. Great people, great beer, great cheese, great castles, amazing history.

 

Couldn't agree more. Never had a trip down South I've not enjoyed in some form or another.

 

You can't beat the birds with upper-middle class English accents.

 

I'm as big a fan of English or Welsh nationalism as I am Scottish. The anti-English stuff pulled out by the Brit Nationalists is just straw clutching - it's all they've got left.

[Snake Plissken]

I don't go for nationalism - had I been born a few hundred miles South of here on the continent I'd be proud to be French. I'm not going to get a stiffy about a tiny chunk of the world I just happened to have been spat out in.

 

Was it George Bernard Shaw who said that nationalism was essentially the belief that convincing yourself that your country is the best in the world because you were born in it. (something along those lines)

 

I'm not taking the side of the Chief of Club 16:20 or I8, I don't care about Britain, I don't care about Scotland. I'm such a mongrel that being proud of one of many nationalities doesn't seem to make sense.

 

Hooray for Holland/Ireland/America/Britain/Scotland

 

nah... doesn't work for me.

[Commander Harris]

I'm a Latin-American Nationalist. One continent, One people.

 

?El pueblo unido jam?s ser? vencido!

[this_is_my_story]

I don't go for nationalism - had I been born a few hundred miles South of here on the continent I'd be proud to be French. I'm not going to get a stiffy about a tiny chunk of the world I just happened to have been spat out in.

 

Was it George Bernard Shaw who said that nationalism was essentially the belief that convincing yourself that your country is the best in the world because you were born in it. (something along those lines)

 

I'm not taking the side of the Chief of Club 16:20 or I8, I don't care about Britain, I don't care about Scotland. I'm such a mongrel that being proud of one of many nationalities doesn't seem to make sense.

 

Hooray for Holland/Ireland/America/Britain/Scotland

 

nah... doesn't work for me.

 

Excellent post. We all have to be from somewhere, so what's the point in being so proud about it? There are better things to have pride in, such as one's good fortune to support the fitbaw team that one does.

[Mr Nobody]

I guess I am Scottish, British and European but if asked will reply Scottish.

[Makween]

The anti-English stuff pulled out by the Brit Nationalists is just straw clutching - it's all they've got left.

 

So people are allowed to be proud of the country that they come from, but only if they view "the country that they come from" in the same way that you do?

[cosanostra]

So people are allowed to be proud of the country that they come from, but only if they view "the country that they come from" in the same way that you do?

 

I don't think that's what he was getting at Mr Makween.

 

He was saying that unionist's attempts to discredit nationalists by saying that the all hate England is clutching at straws and is the last tool available to them as they have no factual agruments to use.

[grumpyjambo]

It's not. I've had reason to go to embassies a couple of time and have seen the signage.

 

 

Does Northern Ireland have its own Embassy?

[Toggie88]

So people are allowed to be proud of the country that they come from, but only if they view "the country that they come from" in the same way that you do?

 

See Cosanostra's post.

[Makween]

I don't think that's what he was getting at Mr Makween.

 

He was saying that unionist's attempts to discredit nationalists by saying that the all hate England is clutching at straws and is the last tool available to them as they have no factual agruments to use.

 

I know what he was saying, but if you look through his other posts in relation to Unionists...

 

Edit : Why isn't there a "British first, Scottish second" option on the poll?

[cosanostra]

I know what he was saying, but if you look through his other posts in relation to Unionists...

 

Edit : Why isn't there a "British first, Scottish second" option on the poll?

 

I see.

 

Apologies for underestimating the Makween.

[Toggie88]

I know what he was saying, but if you look through his other posts in relation to Unionists...

 

Edit : Why isn't there a "British first, Scottish second" option on the poll?

 

Such as?

[Guest S.U.S.S.]

Does Northern Ireland have its own Embassy?

 

Think its more a B&H country

[Sherlock]

...Why isn't there a "British first, Scottish second" option on the poll?

 

And where is the 'European' option?

[Makween]

Such as?

 

I'm sorry, it looks like I've misplaced my little black book of posts by Toggie. I'll be sure to post them all on here when I find it.

[Toggie88]

I'm sorry, it looks like I've misplaced my little black book of posts by Toggie. I'll be sure to post them all on here when I find it.

 

Please do.