Trams

[davemclaren]

That is the fundamental point. The trams the were dumped in the 1950s were just buses on rails. They were not faster than a bus and the infrastructure cost a lot to maintain.

 

The train services in Edinburgh were rapid transit but just didn't go where people wanted to go. Ironically, the lifted tracks lead to places where people do want to go now e.g. Ocean Terminal and other Waterfront locations as well as providing links to major commuter towns such as Haddington.

 

Instead of using this resource, ?600m is being used to replace the 22 bus with a tram. The 22 bus is probably the best bus service in Edinburgh. The people that use it don't have much of a choice anyway. Forcing people that have to use a bus onto a tram, for no obvious benefit, seems idiotic to me.

 

 

The closure of ( some of ) the railways was shortsighted but we are a shortsighted nation. The trams in the 1950s were life expired and petrol was cheap. Seemed a sensible thing to do at the time.

 

As the SNP membership was probably about 237 at that time I doubt they can be blamed for this one.

[Mr Romanov Saviour of HMFC]

That is the fundamental point. The trams the were dumped in the 1950s were just buses on rails. They were not faster than a bus and the infrastructure cost a lot to maintain.

 

The train services in Edinburgh were rapid transit but just didn't go where people wanted to go. Ironically, the lifted tracks lead to places where people do want to go now e.g. Ocean Terminal and other Waterfront locations - as well as providing links to major commuter towns such as Haddington.

Instead of using this resource, ?600m is being used to replace the 22 bus with a tram. The 22 bus is probably the best bus service in Edinburgh. The people that use it don't have much of a choice anyway. Forcing people that have to use a bus onto a tram, for no obvious benefit, seems idiotic to me.

 

Is that right? Never knew that.

 

I use the 22 numerous times a week so that is just another pain in the arse,

[davemclaren]

Correct Dave. One's vote is one's personal business and should remain confidential.

 

It is indeed. However, back to your original point, the SNP form a minority administration and can hardly be blamed if the other parties outvoted them on this one.

[CompleteIdiot]

Is that right? Never knew that.

 

I use the 22 numerous times a week so that is just another pain in the arse,

 

The tram route is basically the 22 bus route with an extension to the airport. There are some places where they are taking the tram off road e.g. around Haymarket as opposed to going along the Western Approach road.

 

The 22 bus is to be axed to make the tram viable - as are other bus services. This is the only way a business case could be made. You take passengers off of the most successful bus route in Edinburgh and put them on a tram. Voila! You have a tram full of passengers and justify spending ?600m.

[Sharpie]

I am not sure the removal of the trams in the Fifties was shortsighted, although I am not sure in those days any of us saw the proliferation of private cars that has occured. I never owned a car when the trams were going, but have a picture in my mind of Nicolson Street or Dalry Road with two sets of tram tracks and cars parked on either side of the road as they are now. I am not sure there would still been room for vehicles to drive between the parked cars and the trams.

 

If any of the old fifties council are around they could make themselves look really good by claiming their brilliant foresight.

[Therapist]

It is indeed. However, back to your original point, the SNP form a minority administration and can hardly be blamed if the other parties outvoted them on this one.

 

Dave, check the previous posts. I'm neither up nor down about the SNP involvement in this. I merely commented on Toggie's lack of any analytical abilities when it comes to his beloved party.

[davemclaren]

Dave, check the previous posts. I'm neither up nor down about the SNP involvement in this. I merely commented on Toggie's lack of any analytical abilities when it comes to his beloved party.

 

Apologies then, I seem to be stereotyping you.

[Therapist]

Apologies then, I seem to be stereotyping you.

 

Yes. Many people do. Not sure why.

[CompleteIdiot]

Dave, check the previous posts. I'm neither up nor down about the SNP involvement in this. I merely commented on Toggie's lack of any analytical abilities when it comes to his beloved party.

 

Without you stating your 'beloved' party, it seems a bit rich to knock someone else's.

 

Why don't you state your party affiliation? If you did, we could examine the policies of your party and how you defend them.

[Gambo]

Edinburgh streets imo are not big enough to accomodate trams in this day and age, if they were to do anything it should have been underground and out of the way.

[Therapist]

Without you stating your 'beloved' party, it seems a bit rich to knock someone else's.

 

Why don't you state your party affiliation? If you did, we could examine the policies of your party and how you defend them.

 

I don't have a "beloved party". I am a political butterfly that flits from party to party depending on who best mirrors my views at the time.

 

In my opinion the country would be a lot better off if more people took my approach rather than rabidly following one party throughout their life.

[CompleteIdiot]

I don't have a "beloved party". I am a political butterfly that flits from party to party depending on who best mirrors my views at the time.

 

In my opinion the country would be a lot better off if more people took my approach rather than rabidly following one party throughout their life.

 

Right. So this Unionist 'butterfly' is right wing, never votes Tory, but flits from Labour to Lib Dems?

 

I would cynically suggest there is another party you are trying to cover up your allegiance to.

[Therapist]

flits from Labour to Lib Dems?

 

There are far more options than just those two.

[CompleteIdiot]

There are far more options than just those two.

 

Not really.

 

Edinburgh West

Candidate Name Party Votes Cast

Sheena Cleland Scottish National Party 7791

Gordon Lindhurst Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party 7361

Richard Meade Scottish Labour 5343

Margaret Smith Scottish Liberal Democrats 13677

John Wilson (2) Independent 580

MSP Elected Majority

Margaret Smith 5886

[christhejambo]

Having lived in a french town last year where they have a modern tram network, similar to that proposed for edinburgh i would have to say i welcome their introduction with open arms. They are clean, efficient, reliable and should be an important part of the infrastructure in a modern and vibrant city such as ours

[Therapist]

I take it those were the options for the Diddy Parliament elections? If so, I never vote in those as it's just an additional layer of unnecessary local government.

 

I'm talking about UK national elections.

[davemclaren]

I take it those were the options for the Diddy Parliament elections? If so, I never vote in those as it's just an additional layer of unnecessary local government.

 

I'm talking about UK national elections.

 

 

Some would say if you don't vote in them you shouldn't then comment on any decision they make.

[Therapist]

Perhaps they would Dave, but I don't subscribe to that train of thought.

[CompleteIdiot]

Perhaps they would Dave, but I don't subscribe to that train of thought.

 

Tram of thought?

[Guest S.U.S.S.]

Tram of thought?

 

Damm, beat me 2 it!

[i8hibsh]

You gotta love these threads, the first mention of SNP and you get the usual suspects

 

Gives me an excuse to come on and bash the fat MOD EDIT

 

he is a clown and his party are a bunch of weegie bafoons

 

I don't think edinburgh is a big enough city to justify them IMO

 

too expensive but the fat bigot has probably blown the next 10 years budget in his first year

 

Salmond = serious tool

[davemclaren]

You gotta love these threads, the first mention of SNP and you get the usual suspects

 

Gives me an excuse to come on and bash the fat MOD EDIT

 

he is a clown and his party are a bunch of weegie bafoons

 

I don't think edinburgh is a big enough city to justify them IMO

 

too expensive but the fat bigot has probably blown the next 10 years budget in his first year

 

Salmond = serious tool

 

Salmond actually wanted to cancel the trams. You need to read the papers more I8....

[i8hibsh]

Salmond actually wanted to cancel the trams. You need to read the papers more I8....

 

I only see,hear n read what i wanna read

 

I just find any excuse to slag the fat MOD EDIT

 

you should know that DM

[davemclaren]

I only see,hear n read what i wanna read

 

I just find any excuse to slag the fat bigot

 

you should know that DM

 

Oh, the irony...

[CompleteIdiot]

You gotta love these threads, the first mention of SNP and you get the usual suspects

 

Gives me an excuse to come on and bash the fat MOD EDIT

 

he is a clown and his party are a bunch of weegie bafoons

 

I don't think edinburgh is a big enough city to justify them IMO

 

too expensive but the fat bigot has probably blown the next 10 years budget in his first year

 

Salmond = serious tool

 

WTF? The SNP were the only party to oppose the trams.

[CompleteIdiot]

Damm, beat me 2 it!

 

Great minds think alike.

[portobellojambo1]

No interest in getting involved in party politics in relation to this, or historical decisions taken with regard to public transport.

 

Personally I think it is a complete and utter waste of money, it is not adding to Edinburgh's public transport options, it is replacing an existing bus service, a very efficient and heavily used bus service, and to spend that sort of money simply replacing something which already functions very well makes no sense at all. The number 22 presently runs onto Edinburgh Park, I cannot see the tram line running through the business park, so it is being introduced not to benefit locals, who indeed will be inconvenienced greatly, but to benefit a few bloody tourists in getting them into the city from the airport.

[davemclaren]

No interest in getting involved in party politics in relation to this, or historical decisions taken with regard to public transport.

 

Personally I think it is a complete and utter waste of money, it is not adding to Edinburgh's public transport options, it is replacing an existing bus service, a very efficient and heavily used bus service, and to spend that sort of money simply replacing something which already functions very well makes no sense at all. The number 22 presently runs onto Edinburgh Park, I cannot see the tram line running through the business park, so it is being introduced not to benefit locals, who indeed will be inconvenienced greatly, but to benefit a few bloody tourists in getting them into the city from the airport.

 

I think it is running somewhere near the park as one of the stops is Edinburgh Park railway station. Of course, it doesn't go to Porty.

[davemclaren]

I think it is running somewhere near the park as one of the stops is Edinburgh Park railway station. Of course, it doesn't go to Porty.

 

http://www.tramtime.com/tramhovermap.html

[Nucky Thompson]

http://www.tramtime.com/tramhovermap.html

 

If you move your cursor over the tram stops, the Murrayfield one says alight for Tynecastle Park. I read somewhere that the Council wanted Vlad to pay ?250k towards the trams as a condition of our planning application.

[Coco]

The congestion creation department of the Council under David Begg decided that they wanted to take more money from people and control more people so over a 15 year period they narrowed roads, closed roads, removed filters at traffic lights, 'dug out' the bus stops, created all day bus lanes etc. Then they tried to get a 'congestion charge' through.

 

The Council bureaucrats decided that a shiny group of park and rides around the city would make them look as if they were stopping global warming. So they increased parking taxes by extending the controlled zone to force commuters to use the park and rides.

 

TIE (the mob who are benefiting from the tram) know that they can push on an open door with the idiots at the Council. They just need to say that 'trams are cleaner' etc and the clowns at the Council will step up and say 'here's at least ?600m'. At the moment they are trying to sink as much money into the project to blackmail the city before they reveal that they want to screw up the junction at Picardy Place, close Constitution Street permanently, close Shandwick Place permanently etc. All in the name of reducing congestion when of course it will increase congestion and delay wherever the line crosses the transport plans of drivers, buses, delivery drivers, cyclists and pedestrians. They have been helped by the opposition parties at Holyrood who are looking for a way to blame the SNP for the sort of financial disaster the Parliament was for the Labour party and Liberal Democrats.

 

By the way, those European cities where trams are effective are usually the ones which had the clearances done by Tiger tanks and Bomber Harris. They have nice wide open streets which can cope with trams.

[davemclaren]

If you move your cursor over the tram stops, the Murrayfield one says alight for Tynecastle Park. I read somewhere that the Council wanted Vlad to pay ?250k towards the trams as a condition of our planning application.

 

 

I think all new developments along the tram corridor have to pay.

[djf]

Salmond actually wanted to cancel the trams. You need to read the papers more I8....

 

He could start by reading the bloody thread.

[brownkg]

I take it those were the options for the Diddy Parliament elections? If so, I never vote in those as it's just an additional layer of unnecessary local government.

 

I'm talking about UK national elections.

 

leaving adside all else if you do not vote in an election you surely have no right to complain about the outcomes/p;ocies that result.

[JP1874]

I know this is probably a daft question BUT will where will the buses/trams stop on Princes Street. As another poster stated the busses & trams can't use the same road/track so what you have to avoid one lot to get the pavement.

[Coco]

I know this is probably a daft question BUT will where will the buses/trams stop on Princes Street. As another poster stated the busses & trams can't use the same road/track so what you have to avoid one lot to get the pavement.

 

There is 1 stop planned for Princes Street.

 

TIE have not yet said how they plan the trams to run along the street. Their 'artists representations' had both directions running next to the shop side pavement on Princes Street.

 

However, of course the likely plan is that the trams run along the middle of the road. Whenever the tram stops - everything on the road stops too.

[Toggie88]

Once again the only argument for the trams seems to be "they look and work great in other cities".

Yes, they may do - but I guarentee those cities have much bigger systems and it didn't cost them an arm and a leg.

 

Will this reduce traffic? No.

 

A suburban train network or a subway system is the only answer for Edinburgh's traffic problems.

[davemclaren]

Once again the only argument for the trams seems to be "they look and work great in other cities".

Yes, they may do - but I guarentee those cities have much bigger systems and it didn't cost them an arm and a leg.

 

Will this reduce traffic? No.

 

A suburban train network or a subway system is the only answer for Edinburgh's traffic problems.

 

Do you have any facts to back up your guarantee? Certainly Manchester and Birmingham started with one line. No idea of the costs but you would appear to know.

[Guest S.U.S.S.]

Once again the only argument for the trams seems to be "they look and work great in other cities".

Yes, they may do - but I guarentee those cities have much bigger systems and it didn't cost them an arm and a leg.

 

Will this reduce traffic? No.

 

A suburban train network or a subway system is the only answer for Edinburgh's traffic problems.

 

Can you show us the facts and figures behind this guarentee? Have no idea how much it cost other cities nor the size initially and how they grew.

[Toggie88]

Do you have any facts to back up your guarantee? Certainly Manchester and Birmingham started with one line. No idea of the costs but you would appear to know.

 

There are no plans for any more lines in Edinburgh.

 

Just it works elsewhere doesn't mean it'll work here. They might look good but give it six months and they'll be full of graffiti and will stink of pish.

[Guest S.U.S.S.]

There are no plans for any more lines in Edinburgh.

 

Just it works elsewhere doesn't mean it'll work here. They might look good but give it six months and they'll be full of graffiti and will stink of pish.

 

Jesus, its another Easter Road!

[brownkg]

There are no plans for any more lines in Edinburgh.

 

Just it works elsewhere doesn't mean it'll work here. They might look good but give it six months and they'll be full of graffiti and will stink of pish.

 

you ned to start toilet training now then

[Toggie88]

Can you show us the facts and figures behind this guarentee? Have no idea how much it cost other cities nor the size initially and how they grew.

 

Manchester Metrolink cost ?145m for the first line and ?160m for the second.

[davemclaren]

There are no plans for any more lines in Edinburgh.

 

Just it works elsewhere doesn't mean it'll work here. They might look good but give it six months and they'll be full of graffiti and will stink of pish.

 

 

There were no plans for any more lines ( just aspirations like in Edinburgh ) when

they built the Manchester and Brum ones either. I can't see why they'll smell any more of pish than buses? The fact that they will have a conductor on board might prevent that.

 

I still see no facts to back up your guarantee.

[Toggie88]

Jesus, its another Easter Road!

 

It is going down Leith.

[Guest S.U.S.S.]

Manchester Metrolink cost ?145m for the first line and ?160m for the second.

 

Are they of a comparable size etc?

[Toggie88]

There were no plans for any more lines ( just aspirations like in Edinburgh ) when

they built the Manchester and Brum ones either. I can't see why they'll smell any more of pish than buses? The fact that they will have a conductor on board might prevent that.

 

I still see no facts to back up your guarantee.

 

 

See above.

 

The thing is their are no aspirations either....well except for a rather small circle.

[Guest S.U.S.S.]

It is going down Leith.

 

All is lost.

[Toggie88]

Are they of a comparable size etc?

 

 

Phase 1

Bury ? Victoria 9.9 miles (15.9 km)

Victoria ? G-Mex 1.9 miles (3.1 km)

Spur to Piccadilly station 0.4 miles (0.6 km)

G-Mex ? Altrincham 6.5 miles (10.5 km)

 

A lot bigger.

[davemclaren]

Manchester Metrolink cost ?145m for the first line and ?160m for the second.

 

This quotes the costs in 2003/2004 prices. They will be higher if you did them in todays prices.

 

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200405/cmselect/cmpubacc/440/44007.htm