Have the referees broken football?

[givememychoice]

Given the explanation from Gollum that the t-shirt line is the boundary for handball, try the following. Raise your arm close to your head. Put a football between the shirt and your head. Walk into opposition goal. (and if you are wondering how to get the ball there in the first place, get the keeper to do it. Kinda like Kerlon's seal dribble. But that took skill.

As a side note, I did email the SFA seeking clarification, not least because at the weekend, the main picture on the referee section of their website was this 
And i see 3 significantly different t-shirt lines (before we get to the number 6 who has one significantly higher.

In the SFA review show, Gollum also stated that different countries referee handball differently (which is true in terms of intention/silhouette etc), So i have enquired as to which country uses a non IFAB definition regarding the location of the arm. Ive had nothing, and i will get nothing. I do think we should try my goal next year, see what it gets ruled out for.

 

[upgotheheads]

Scottish referees have ruined Scottish football. Too many of them have known club connections especially Beaton And the Dallas family.

[Mikey1874]

Yes, they have in Scotland.

 

The solution is total hostility till they run away and need to be replaced. 

[pettigrewsstylist]

2 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

Yes, they have in Scotland.

 

The solution is total hostility till they run away and need to be replaced. 

Yip, hound them out. I dont care if a 15 yr old ends up reffing our game. These disgusting, cowardly cheats need to be chased out of town

[Footballfirst]

The latest "Ref's View" podcast is worth a listen as they discuss wee Wullie's VAR review.  I know that some people view Steve Conroy and Des Roache as anti SFA establishment, but for a couple of Celtic minded ex-refs their views on the recent incidents are pretty fair.

 

 

[Diadora Van Basten]

There is no such thing as the t shirt line, Collum was deliberately trying to mislead us on the VAR show. 

 

The rule is the armpit line and the t shirt is used as a visual aid to help determine if it’s above or below the armpit line. 

 

If it hits the  bicep it is below the armpit line and hand ball. 

[Deevers]

15 minutes ago, upgotheheads said:

Scottish referees have ruined Scottish football. Too many of them have known club connections especially Beaton And the Dallas family.

This 100%.  That and wanting to ignore the laws of the game when it comes to refereeing either side of the Old Firm. 

Edited June 3 by Deevers

[db211833]

I watch a lot of EPL football too. Definitely not perfect bit the refs are a different level to here. They actually let the game flow, don't feel the need to blow for every little incident and a generally in the background.  They seem intent on being centre of attention up here.

[Yoda]

2 minutes ago, db211833 said:

I watch a lot of EPL football too. Definitely not perfect bit the refs are a different level to here. They actually let the game flow, don't feel the need to blow for every little incident and a generally in the background.  They seem intent on being centre of attention up here.

That can't happen here when you have attention seeking erses like Nick Walsh and Collum himself back in the day.  They love the attention.

[1971fozzy]

McLean, Beaton, Dallas and Gollum have completely broken it. I’ve been around long enough to see bias but nothing compared to these Motherwell games where it was obvious to every man and his dog in the world just how corrupt it is. Only hope is that it gives it a shake but doubt it.

[Footballfirst]

9 minutes ago, Yoda said:

That can't happen here when you have attention seeking erses like Nick Walsh and Collum himself back in the day.  They love the attention.

Dallas is even worse as a VAR. It was noted how animated he was about the Nicholson "handball". It was a "look what we've noticed" moment, then was intent on getting his observation accepted and finally reveling in "look as us, aren't we clever". 

Edited June 3 by Footballfirst

[Bill Sikes]

The little cabal of referees clearly ruin the game, there a handful that get all the important games and there's hardly a game goes by without any controversy alluded to them. 

Its been the same for what seems like decades with the current crop.

 

You see Beaton on the team sheet, you know its a stop start game and he'll ruin it before kick off, he loves the abuse, he encourages it ffs. 

Walsh is not far different, but loses total control usually after about 20 minutes. 

McLean is another who loses the plot.

Clancy is probably the only one that actually looks like he is in control and he's just as Shit as the others.

 

Thats the referee choice we see, they must get 4 or 5 of our games every season, thats horrendous.

[kila]

The Glasgow Firm will never allow the referees association to be reformed for the greater good.

 

We really need full time refs from around the country and even beyond to Europe, not just the Glasgow surrounding areas. It'll never happen though.

[Mikey1874]

3 minutes ago, kila said:

The Glasgow Firm will never allow the referees association to be reformed for the greater good.

 

We really need full time refs from around the country and even beyond to Europe, not just the Glasgow surrounding areas. It'll never happen though.

 

Can happen quite quickly when they refuse to do games because of the abuse they will get. 

[Polonia Gorgie]

 

Collum kept repeating T shirt line, and indicated to these images from IFAB, but these images have no t shirt line!! It's a shoulder! Anywhere else is a handball. That VAR review show had my piss boiling!! 

[Jambo61]

1 hour ago, givememychoice said:

Given the explanation from Gollum that the t-shirt line is the boundary for handball, try the following. Raise your arm close to your head. Put a football between the shirt and your head. Walk into opposition goal. (and if you are wondering how to get the ball there in the first place, get the keeper to do it. Kinda like Kerlon's seal dribble. But that took skill.

As a side note, I did email the SFA seeking clarification, not least because at the weekend, the main picture on the referee section of their website was this 
And i see 3 significantly different t-shirt lines (before we get to the number 6 who has one significantly higher.

In the SFA review show, Gollum also stated that different countries referee handball differently (which is true in terms of intention/silhouette etc), So i have enquired as to which country uses a non IFAB definition regarding the location of the arm. Ive had nothing, and i will get nothing. I do think we should try my goal next year, see what it gets ruled out for.

 

Just have an extended t-shirt sleeve, maybe to elbow?

[kevin_sectionE]

Its embarrassing for our league 

[Triggers Broom]

There has not been one ref in my 30 odd years of supporting Hearts in Scotland who has been fair and had a good reputation. 
 

VAR in Scotland is the absolute pits, look at the EPL VAR miles better than Scotland yet they are unhappy with it down south,

 

VAR in Scotland should be overseen by another football association or a company offshore with no affiliations or links to any team in Scotland , Scottish refs should all be full time, being part time in 2026 is a joke and is one of the many issues this country has with this game.

 

The SFA ruin absolutely everything they touch or oversee 

 

Pyramid preventing anything new a good few teams in the lowland league who would come into the football league and do much better than your Forfar and Elgins.
 

National Stadium is a toilet with no sign of redevelopment. 
 

No league expansion 

 

and these pathetic refs that’s only a few to mention.

[db211833]

1 hour ago, Yoda said:

That can't happen here when you have attention seeking erses like Nick Walsh and Collum himself back in the day.  They love the attention.

100% being peripheral to the game doesn't suit. Even the way they signal decisions is very much look at me.

[Tynecastle Valhalla]

What collum does is make up the rules to justify past decisions.

 

The Longelo handball was blatant.

 

[Papa]

Gollum made an absolute fool of himself by referring to ‘t-shirt line’ and then showing IFAB diagrams and a still image of Longellow playing the ball with his bicep that completely contradicted his interpretation of the rules. 

[sac]

24 minutes ago, kevin_sectionE said:

Its embarrassing for our league 

It’s not. It’s blatant cheating or coercive behaviour by a handful of officials, supported by the powers at be.

Been like this now for as long as I can remember and getting worse.

[Diadora Van Basten]

1 hour ago, Footballfirst said:

The latest "Ref's View" podcast is worth a listen as they discuss wee Wullie's VAR review.  I know that some people view Steve Conroy and Des Roache as anti SFA establishment, but for a couple of Celtic minded ex-refs their views on the recent incidents are pretty fair.

 

 

Glad I’m not the only one who thought Collum was talking nonsense on the VAR show. 

[JamboAl]

1 hour ago, db211833 said:

I watch a lot of EPL football too. Definitely not perfect bit the refs are a different level to here. They actually let the game flow, don't feel the need to blow for every little incident and a generally in the background.  They seem intent on being centre of attention up here.

We are skirting round the problem in Scotland and being blown off course by Gollum and his stupid back of a fag packet rule interpretations.

The root of the problem is the patently obvious bias and promotion of Glasgow referees which is not helped by the inept head of referees.  It seems that everything evolves from the Glasgow association's Williamwood training ground where no doubt the clique discuss the events of the previous week and forthcoming fixtures.

Will anything change?  That's a stupid question.

[Spellczech]

I certainly hope they don't literally mean T-shirt line because some T-shirts are long-sleeved...

 

They've made a right mess of interpreting the rules of football, and they've done this wilfully in trying to justify wrong calls and satisfy the OF's demands.

 

We still have the situation where the officials are NOT getting the big decisions right. They never will if they take 20 seconds to review the most important call of the entire season! Sometimes they don't even get it right retrospectively like with Collum himself in the last week. A raised hand where the arm has been bumped by the jumping from below challenge of an opponent is not making the body a larger object, even moreso if it is in front of the face, and being in front of the face is allowed anyway - you are no longer expected to take ball to face like Murdo McLeod famously did for Scotland. There was no reason for Nicholson to want to use his arm rather than his head... Besides, the ball clearly came off a forehead not an arm. He also ignores that Dallas was wrong to claim a clear and obvious error. Collum ignores all this. The man is a dangerously arrogant incompetent.

[Diadora Van Basten]

2 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

I certainly hope they don't literally mean T-shirt line because some T-shirts are long-sleeved...

 

They've made a right mess of interpreting the rules of football, and they've done this wilfully in trying to justify wrong calls and satisfy the OF's demands.

 

We still have the situation where the officials are NOT getting the big decisions right. They never will if they take 20 seconds to review the most important call of the entire season! Sometimes they don't even get it right retrospectively like with Collum himself in the last week. A raised hand where the arm has been bumped by the jumping from below challenge of an opponent is not making the body a larger object, even moreso if it is in front of the face, and being in front of the face is allowed anyway - you are no longer expected to take ball to face like Murdo McLeod famously did for Scotland. There was no reason for Nicholson to want to use his arm rather than his head... Besides, the ball clearly came off a forehead not an arm. He also ignores that Dallas was wrong to claim a clear and obvious error. Collum ignores all this. The man is a dangerously arrogant incompetent.

Collum said “it’s a clear hand ball” and tried to back it up with a still. Later in the show when talking about the Johnson non red card he says you can’t rely on a still. 

[Malinga the Swinga]

6 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

I certainly hope they don't literally mean T-shirt line because some T-shirts are long-sleeved...

 

They've made a right mess of interpreting the rules of football, and they've done this wilfully in trying to justify wrong calls and satisfy the OF's demands.

 

We still have the situation where the officials are NOT getting the big decisions right. They never will if they take 20 seconds to review the most important call of the entire season! Sometimes they don't even get it right retrospectively like with Collum himself in the last week. A raised hand where the arm has been bumped by the jumping from below challenge of an opponent is not making the body a larger object, even moreso if it is in front of the face, and being in front of the face is allowed anyway - you are no longer expected to take ball to face like Murdo McLeod famously did for Scotland. There was no reason for Nicholson to want to use his arm rather than his head... Besides, the ball clearly came off a forehead not an arm. He also ignores that Dallas was wrong to claim a clear and obvious error. Collum ignores all this. The man is a dangerously arrogant incompetent.

He isn't incompetent at all. He's certainly arrogant but in no way incompetent. Incompetent suggests he doesn't know what he's doing. He knows exactly what he is doing and he is extremely competent.

He is undoubtedly a corrupt cheating piece of shit though.

[Erik]

The ‘T-shirt line’ is something that Collum made up whilst trying to sound intelligent. 
 

It doesn’t exist in the context of any law of the game. 
 

The law is ‘armpit line’. And its sole purpose of existence is to differentiate when a player has hit the ball with the shoulder rather than their arm. Anyone who cannot understand that your bicep is part of your arm and lower than your shoulder is beyond helping. 
 

The ‘t-shirt’ line is going to vary from player to player and strip to strip. It’s a nonsense. 
 

The Longelo incident is as much of a handball as you will ever see. Collums explanation is completely outwith the spirit of the game and the way the law was intended to be applied. I’d like to think that the people who write the laws would agree withe there. 

[Ricardo Quaresma]

1 hour ago, Footballfirst said:

The latest "Ref's View" podcast is worth a listen as they discuss wee Wullie's VAR review.  I know that some people view Steve Conroy and Des Roache as anti SFA establishment, but for a couple of Celtic minded ex-refs their views on the recent incidents are pretty fair.

 

 

 

Wow, they are absolutely rippin' the piss out of wullie column

 

Well done wullie, you did exactly what I said you'd do on this forum a week ago before you 'performed' on 'your' show

 

Welt

[Bill Sikes]

There's always this call for full-time referees.

Does being full-time mean you won't be as corrupt as being part-time ?

 

Nah. I don't think so.

 

The problem is Collum, plenty predicted it, add in VAR and he's destroyed the entire system. He's a law unto himself and always has been, it was last summer he was commenting about corruption on his watch, bet he won't be commenting on it this summer.

 

VAR is a useful tool to be used in extenuating circumstances, it sits in background as a safety net for game changing errors referees might unfortunately make.

 

Collum has changed it into the referee, jury, judge and convictor in one season.

 

He'll probably be getting a pay rise.

[Taffin]

Sure I read that if the correct decisions had been applied then City would have been 2 PTS ahead of Arsenal going into the final weekend.

 

Personally I think VAR has ruined it, or rather opened this can of worms. It's made the game be re-reffed and decisions scrutinised to the nth degree. It would be good if they got it right, but they make the wrong calls too.

[kevin_sectionE]

32 minutes ago, sac said:

It’s not. It’s blatant cheating or coercive behaviour by a handful of officials, supported by the powers at be.

Been like this now for as long as I can remember and getting worse.

How's it not an embarrassment then?  For the people watching say in England 

[Diadora Van Basten]

15 minutes ago, Bill Sikes said:

There's always this call for full-time referees.

Does being full-time mean you won't be as corrupt as being part-time ?

 

Nah. I don't think so.

 

The problem is Collum, plenty predicted it, add in VAR and he's destroyed the entire system. He's a law unto himself and always has been, it was last summer he was commenting about corruption on his watch, bet he won't be commenting on it this summer.

 

VAR is a useful tool to be used in extenuating circumstances, it sits in background as a safety net for game changing errors referees might unfortunately make.

 

Collum has changed it into the referee, jury, judge and convictor in one season.

 

He'll probably be getting a pay rise.

Collum was always the most controversial referee he gave more red cards and more penalties than any other referee. To put him in charge of all the referees was really stupid. 
 

Following no Scottish refs going to the World Cup they made a plan to make Dallas and Walsh VAR refs and encourage them to get actively involved in the game and that’s what happened with the Nicholson penalty. 

 

The SFA are reaping what they sowed. 
 

 

[JimmyCant]

Things have got FAR worse under Collum and it was a low bar to start with.

 

No disciplinary sanctions. No answerability. McLean Rewarded with a cup final after a horrendous wrong decision just for spite. Lying to clubs, switching the narrative on identical decisions. Covering up institutional bias. having to ‘correct’ countless VAR decisions throughout the season and continuing to support a VAR system that is inadequate for purpose. Secret undocumented unwitnessed and private conversations with managers at key points of the season

 

That all lies at Willie Collum’s door. He’s unfit for purpose and the first thing that has to happen if there is any desire to improve things is THAT MAN HAS TO GO !

[jamboozy]

The cabal of ‘Top’ referees in this country run the game here for their own gratification and to their own ends. The only balanced thing about them is you probably have a 50/50 split between Celtic and Rangers ones.

      When VAR (the Barra's version) was introduced to Scottish football a lot of us said that it would be turned into a tool to help them cheat further. Collum couldn’t wait to get his little rat like claws into it to manipulate it as he seen fit. He is the snakes head and the head needs chopped off. Get rid of him and the domino’s will start to tumble.

[Spellczech]

31 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

He isn't incompetent at all. He's certainly arrogant but in no way incompetent. Incompetent suggests he doesn't know what he's doing. He knows exactly what he is doing and he is extremely competent.

He is undoubtedly a corrupt cheating piece of shit though.

Fair comment - So many years of the SFA claiming that they make lots of innocent mistakes that it can be hard to get out of using the word "incompetent". They have, of course, proved themselves to be corrupt cheats.

Edited June 3 by Spellczech

[Ricardo Quaresma]

12:50 on that clip: wasn't it the case that mclean admitted on VAR audio that there was contact by maswanhise on Kyziridis?

 

Interesting that they also think the longelo one was a pen and a cover-up

[fr4ser]

Individuals like Collum, Dallas, Beaton and McLean have broken scottish football because they are either incompetent or cheats

[Yoda]

40 minutes ago, JamboAl said:

We are skirting round the problem in Scotland and being blown off course by Gollum and his stupid back of a fag packet rule interpretations.

The root of the problem is the patently obvious bias and promotion of Glasgow referees which is not helped by the inept head of referees.  It seems that everything evolves from the Glasgow association's Williamwood training ground where no doubt the clique discuss the events of the previous week and forthcoming fixtures.

Will anything change?  That's a stupid question.

We know nothing will change, if we don't do anything about it.  The ball is in our court.

[pettigrewsstylist]

1 hour ago, 1971fozzy said:

McLean, Beaton, Dallas and Gollum have completely broken it. I’ve been around long enough to see bias but nothing compared to these Motherwell games where it was obvious to every man and his dog in the world just how corrupt it is. Only hope is that it gives it a shake but doubt it.

First visit to Tynie 1978. That Fir Park week was a whole new level

They panicked and lost the plot!!

The world saw it.....they dont know what to do now.

We need to be merciless in any pursuit open to us 🙏

[sac]

2 minutes ago, kevin_sectionE said:

How's it not an embarrassment then?  For the people watching say in England 

Very simple really, the GFA and the OF don’t give a rats arse about anyone but the OF.
So why would it be an embarrassment?

 

People in England laugh at Scottish football, and have done for years. This year someone challenged that duopoly, only to be cheated out of it, so for the bulk of the season our league finally got a bit of interest from other countries because it looked for a long time that a club outwith the uglies might win it.

 

But once Celtic got their hands on the trophy again, the rest of the world went meh, without knowing what really went on in the last few games.

[kevin_sectionE]

2 minutes ago, sac said:

Very simple really, the GFA and the OF don’t give a rats arse about anyone but the OF.
So why would it be an embarrassment?

 

People in England laugh at Scottish football, and have done for years. This year someone challenged that duopoly, only to be cheated out of it, so for the bulk of the season our league finally got a bit of interest from other countries because it looked for a long time that a club outwith the uglies might win it.

 

But once Celtic got their hands on the trophy again, the rest of the world went meh, without knowing what really went on in the last few games.

That's what I meant by embarrassing 

[pettigrewsstylist]

44 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

I certainly hope they don't literally mean T-shirt line because some T-shirts are long-sleeved...

 

They've made a right mess of interpreting the rules of football, and they've done this wilfully in trying to justify wrong calls and satisfy the OF's demands.

 

We still have the situation where the officials are NOT getting the big decisions right. They never will if they take 20 seconds to review the most important call of the entire season! Sometimes they don't even get it right retrospectively like with Collum himself in the last week. A raised hand where the arm has been bumped by the jumping from below challenge of an opponent is not making the body a larger object, even moreso if it is in front of the face, and being in front of the face is allowed anyway - you are no longer expected to take ball to face like Murdo McLeod famously did for Scotland. There was no reason for Nicholson to want to use his arm rather than his head... Besides, the ball clearly came off a forehead not an arm. He also ignores that Dallas was wrong to claim a clear and obvious error. Collum ignores all this. The man is a dangerously arrogant incompetent.

Dallas conducted that review, Beaton was just the patsy ffs.

[Rogue Daddy]

2 hours ago, Footballfirst said:

The latest "Ref's View" podcast is worth a listen as they discuss wee Wullie's VAR review.  I know that some people view Steve Conroy and Des Roache as anti SFA establishment, but for a couple of Celtic minded ex-refs their views on the recent incidents are pretty fair.

 

 

At least, back in their day, there was consequences for poor refereeing displays. 
Now, you get rewarded with a cup final. 
The whole refereeing department needs rebuilt from the ground up. 
That podcast is always a good listen. 👍

[sac]

2 minutes ago, kevin_sectionE said:

That's what I meant by embarrassing 

They laughed at the perceived quality of our game, not the cheating. 

[Seymour M Hersh]

37 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

He isn't incompetent at all. He's certainly arrogant but in no way incompetent. Incompetent suggests he doesn't know what he's doing. He knows exactly what he is doing and he is extremely competent.

He is undoubtedly a corrupt cheating piece of shit though.

 

The handball decision or rather non decision possibly/probably cost us the league. Add in the VAR overturn by the cheat Mclean in the same game then without doubt they are ruining the game in Scotland. Or rather they are perverting the game in favour of, in this case, one team from the eat end of the weej. However had things been slightly different and the team from the west end of the weej been our main competitor then they would have been getting the decisions. 

[kevin_sectionE]

4 minutes ago, sac said:

They laughed at the perceived quality of our game, not the cheating. 

I spoke to some English people who were enjoying the Scottish league this year.  All agreed we were cheated 

[maroonsgotop]

53 minutes ago, JamboAl said:

We are skirting round the problem in Scotland and being blown off course by Gollum and his stupid back of a fag packet rule interpretations.

The root of the problem is the patently obvious bias and promotion of Glasgow referees which is not helped by the inept head of referees.  It seems that everything evolves from the Glasgow association's Williamwood training ground where no doubt the clique discuss the events of the previous week and forthcoming fixtures.

Will anything change?  That's a stupid question.

 

He was a horrific referee so why would anyone (apart from his Celtic minded masters) think he would be any good when he was in charge. It's utter madness or blatant corruption

 

 

 

 

 

[Spellczech]

13 minutes ago, pettigrewsstylist said:

Dallas conducted that review, Beaton was just the patsy ffs.

True but the on-field official is still ultimately responsible for the decision. VAR is meant to just be there to help the on-field team arrive at the correct ultimate decision. If Dallas unilaterally make the decision then the whole way the SFA are practicing VAR needs fixed...which fits with my original point that they are still getting the big decisions wrong - in that sense VAR is not fulfilling its purpose and Collum has to be responsible and accountable for failing. They pfaff about messing up the handball rule interpretation, but this feels like a smokescreen.

 

The more I think about it the more I think all of McLean, Beaton, Dallas and Collum need to be sacked...

Edited June 3 by Spellczech

[McQ]

2 hours ago, Footballfirst said:

Dallas is even worse as a VAR. It was noted how animated he was about the Nicholson "handball". It was a "look what we've noticed" moment, then was intent on getting his observation accepted and finally reveling in "look as us, aren't we clever". 

That was my impression... an overexcited evening in the monkey enclosure.

 

Like... we've found something,  we've found something!!!

 

I realise that VAR has evolved, but when it was brought in, I recall that the justification was to avoid the refereeing clangers. Like Thierry Henry against Ireland.

 

Those VAR room clips for Motherwell v Celtic were an embarrassment.