spacerjoe Posted May 28 Posted May 28 20 hours ago, Pasquale for King said: He’s not guaranteed to even get in the WC squad never mind actually play. We can’t wait forever though as we have big gaps to fill asap. We'll be looking at upgrades on him no matter what. Won't make a difference.
spacerjoe Posted May 28 Posted May 28 11 hours ago, tiger Rudi said: We don't want another Shanks turning up at training camp later than everybody else and only because other interested clubs have not come through for him. There is absolutely no evidence of this. I would counter that for him to get the contract clause he did, he most likely had other offers to barter with. But again, no evidence of having or not having other offers. Regardless, we will upgrade on Devlin no matter what he does this month, just as we have already with Ageu and Renaud.
Taffin Posted May 28 Posted May 28 2 minutes ago, spacerjoe said: There is absolutely no evidence of this. I would counter that for him to get the contract clause he did, he most likely had other offers to barter with. But again, no evidence of having or not having other offers. Regardless, we will upgrade on Devlin no matter what he does this month, just as we have already with Ageu and Renaud. We might or might not upgrade on Devlin. Are you saying Renaud is an upgrade on Ageu? There's no evidence either are an upgrade on anyone yet imo. They've done nothing at Hearts. In the same way people shouldn't write new players off, I don't get the writing off of current players for new players who've yet to do anything.
spacerjoe Posted May 28 Posted May 28 25 minutes ago, Taffin said: We might or might not upgrade on Devlin. Are you saying Renaud is an upgrade on Ageu? There's no evidence either are an upgrade on anyone yet imo. They've done nothing at Hearts. In the same way people shouldn't write new players off, I don't get the writing off of current players for new players who've yet to do anything. That's not my point. It was related to whether or not Devlin not making a decision would stop us from signing anyone. We'll sign regardless. You are right, we don't know if they are upgrades. But we are attempting to upgrade. I would say for sure (just given his fee alone) Ageu was an attempted upgrade on Devlin / Beni. Whether they work out or not though is moot in this case.
tiger Rudi Posted May 28 Posted May 28 38 minutes ago, bobby bombscare said: I think for anyone without maroon tinted specs on Shankland on a free is an excellent bit of business.. regardless of age, he is a 20+goal a season striker proved multiple times over. Scored goals in omestically, in Europe, and at international level. A great signing for any spl club. I agree on all other counts though and I don't think they believe this is good business.. I think they are skint! I agree Shankland is a good piece of business, on a free. Exactly why we agreed to have him for a year, with a distinct possiblity we would lose him if Rangers came calling. Will Rangers build their play around him in the way Hearts did? I'm not so sure they will. I can see him benched for certain games. Miovski has only had about 14 starts. His goal return is actually quite good considering about half of his appearances have been off the bench. Where does Shankland stand with Miovski and Chermiti? Led to believe he's been given the number 7 jersey. Will be interesting to see how it pans out at Rangers. I won't be losing any sleep over it though 😄
77Mackay77 Posted May 28 Posted May 28 “Upgraded on Devlin” makes me chuckle. Will be very very difficult to find a player within our range that will produce the performances and stats the Devlin has. Bordering on impossible. But like with Shankland the process of replacement is more likely to be full moneyball rather than direct replacement. So a 1-3 signings make up for the loss of their output in their key areas and add higher/different output elsewhere. Cammy’s defensive stats in terms of things like tackles, defensive contributions and duels won are outstanding and hard to replace in one player. Using tackles as an example he made 113 in the season, 25 more than the second highest player in the league. Beni made 55, two players expected to score in the high 70-low 80s effectively makes up for both. And then it’s can one or both be higher in other areas like chances created, shots or goals. A higher goal contribution of 3-5 a piece then massively contributes to also negating the lose of Shankland’s goals. The model is not just about discovering overlooked value in players it’s also about creating a team where the whole team is greater than the sum of the parts.
Aussie Jambo Posted May 28 Posted May 28 Not sure if said but Joel Sked said he had interest from America MLS. He’d do very well in the US. Plus we’d get decent money for him.
Penrices left boot Posted May 28 Posted May 28 1 hour ago, bobby bombscare said: I think for anyone without maroon tinted specs on Shankland on a free is an excellent bit of business.. regardless of age, he is a 20+goal a season striker proved multiple times over. Scored goals in omestically, in Europe, and at international level. A great signing for any spl club. I agree on all other counts though and I don't think they believe this is good business.. I think they are skint! It's a great piece of Business now, but if they had a Morelos or a Dessers as an option then Shankland wouldn't get a look in. Rangers had Cheminti (sp) and Mivoski as their options last season, Shankland adds tl that no doubt- that is evidence of their decline since Gerrard. Cheminti is good and has potential but is young and inconsistent, Mivoski is decent, none of them are near Morelos level tho and Dessers waa arguably better. In midfield, Barron is also a decent player, but he's also a sign that their recruitment since Gerrard is nothing spectacular or to be feared.
Penrices left boot Posted May 28 Posted May 28 9 hours ago, Deodato said: I'm hearing on good authority that he is staying with us for next season. Any special " **** of for nowt" clauses?
Seymour M Hersh Posted May 28 Posted May 28 14 hours ago, ShedBoy said: Eh? Thats exactly how I say it and spell it too? 🤔 A sad indication then of just how far down the world rankings our education system has fallen.
RustyRightPeg Posted May 28 Posted May 28 21 minutes ago, Aussie Jambo said: Not sure if said but Joel Sked said he had interest from America MLS. He’d do very well in the US. Plus we’d get decent money for him. No we wouldn’t. His contract expires on Sunday. We’d get nothing.
All roads lead to Gorgie Posted May 28 Posted May 28 We could upgrade but it would cost a good amount. Yes there are plenty players who could pass the ball in a more constructive way in the attacking third but very few in our budget would have Cammy's energy and ability to win the ball back from seemingly impossible situations. If he stays and is teamed up with attack minded midfielders then we should be more than happy. If he goes elsewhere so bet it but anywhere but Scotland.
Aussie Jambo Posted May 28 Posted May 28 (edited) 57 minutes ago, RustyRightPeg said: No we wouldn’t. His contract expires on Sunday. We’d get nothing. Oh yeh. Shit I forgot about that. Bugger that’s more money we are losing out on. Must be a sell on clause though? Maybe? Edited May 28 by Aussie Jambo
RustyRightPeg Posted May 28 Posted May 28 1 minute ago, Aussie Jambo said: Oh yeh. Shit i forgot about that. Bigger that’s more money we are losing out on. Must be a sell on clause though? Maybe? No clauses if he isn’t sold. He’s got freedom of contract to do what he wants.
ShedBoy Posted May 28 Posted May 28 59 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said: A sad indication then of just how far down the world rankings our education system has fallen. Deary me. Do you do after dinner speaking?
Aussie Jambo Posted May 28 Posted May 28 2 minutes ago, RustyRightPeg said: No clauses if he isn’t sold. He’s got freedom of contract to do what he wants. That’s shit. Never mind. More players going on the free. Seems to be a running theme.
Pasquale for King Posted May 28 Posted May 28 3 hours ago, spacerjoe said: We'll be looking at upgrades on him no matter what. Won't make a difference. I’ve been saying that for months about every player.
boag1874 Posted May 28 Posted May 28 1 hour ago, 77Mackay77 said: “Upgraded on Devlin” makes me chuckle. Will be very very difficult to find a player within our range that will produce the performances and stats the Devlin has. Bordering on impossible. But like with Shankland the process of replacement is more likely to be full moneyball rather than direct replacement. So a 1-3 signings make up for the loss of their output in their key areas and add higher/different output elsewhere. Cammy’s defensive stats in terms of things like tackles, defensive contributions and duels won are outstanding and hard to replace in one player. Using tackles as an example he made 113 in the season, 25 more than the second highest player in the league. Beni made 55, two players expected to score in the high 70-low 80s effectively makes up for both. And then it’s can one or both be higher in other areas like chances created, shots or goals. A higher goal contribution of 3-5 a piece then massively contributes to also negating the lose of Shankland’s goals. The model is not just about discovering overlooked value in players it’s also about creating a team where the whole team is greater than the sum of the parts. Good post and exactly what I expect to see happen if Devlin goes Could actually argue that playing with Shankland increased the value of Braga and Kyziridis as the 3 complimented each other so well when they played together. That will be part of the model.
Ribble Posted May 28 Posted May 28 1 hour ago, 77Mackay77 said: “Upgraded on Devlin” makes me chuckle. Will be very very difficult to find a player within our range that will produce the performances and stats the Devlin has. Bordering on impossible. But like with Shankland the process of replacement is more likely to be full moneyball rather than direct replacement. So a 1-3 signings make up for the loss of their output in their key areas and add higher/different output elsewhere. Cammy’s defensive stats in terms of things like tackles, defensive contributions and duels won are outstanding and hard to replace in one player. Using tackles as an example he made 113 in the season, 25 more than the second highest player in the league. Beni made 55, two players expected to score in the high 70-low 80s effectively makes up for both. And then it’s can one or both be higher in other areas like chances created, shots or goals. A higher goal contribution of 3-5 a piece then massively contributes to also negating the lose of Shankland’s goals. The model is not just about discovering overlooked value in players it’s also about creating a team where the whole team is greater than the sum of the parts. Spot on, you can also factor in that a more progressive midfield that creates or scores more goals mean that less defensive actions are needed. Take Devlins 115 tackles, if you factor in the number of single goal victories where the opposition were still in with a chance of taking something late in the game, Devlin will have contributed say 15-20% of those tackles late in games but they're not needed if we're winning 2/3-0 and the other team are simply seeing the game out.
Cochrane123 Posted May 28 Posted May 28 14 hours ago, OTT said: Me too. By the looks of things we're going to be bringing in a lot of young and foreign players. We do not want to start next season slowly, and IMO we do that by ensuring that we have a clear leader who can help bring these players up to speed as quickly as possible. Devlin for me embodies so much of what Hearts fans expect from their team by virtue of his sheer work rate. You can tell he cares about the club and has that bond with fans. For me, that is something special, and I'm not sure JTA takes that sort of intangible into consideration. Absolutely we can get better value for money, we can find someone with a higher ceiling, but I think without the environment that last seasons JTA signings walked into - having established leaders like Halkett, Kent, Shankland, Devlin to help them with understanding the scottish game, the pace its played at, the expectations of the club.. I'm not sure they'd have been as successful. I noticed several times over the course of the season that Cammy was nipping at Braga and Kyzi when they weren't paying attention. I remember back when Levein was DOF and we had that huge influx of foreign players, many of us felt that the identity of the team was lost, and we didn't quite seem to grasp the passion or the fight needed to actually win games. Juanma was a great striker, but didn't have that right sort attitude. Someone like Devlin helps motivate those around him. For me, its an absolute no brainer. We do not want to create set backs for ourselves, and we do this by signing Devlin and making him our captain. Lets not forget that Halks is out long term, Kingsley cannot play volume of games we will need next season. Basically just leaves Milne & Findlay. That is a recipe for disaster IMO. I would agree with all this. Whilst we could go and perhaps get someone better/more balanced in attack/defence Devlin provides and sets a standard of work ethic and is a senior player within the squad driving culture. With the volume of squad change think it is important to have a little continuity. Think we've seen that with Milner and Wellbeck at Brighton.
Goldstone Wonder Posted May 28 Posted May 28 2 hours ago, 77Mackay77 said: “Upgraded on Devlin” makes me chuckle. Will be very very difficult to find a player within our range that will produce the performances and stats the Devlin has. Bordering on impossible. But like with Shankland the process of replacement is more likely to be full moneyball rather than direct replacement. So a 1-3 signings make up for the loss of their output in their key areas and add higher/different output elsewhere. Cammy’s defensive stats in terms of things like tackles, defensive contributions and duels won are outstanding and hard to replace in one player. Using tackles as an example he made 113 in the season, 25 more than the second highest player in the league. Beni made 55, two players expected to score in the high 70-low 80s effectively makes up for both. And then it’s can one or both be higher in other areas like chances created, shots or goals. A higher goal contribution of 3-5 a piece then massively contributes to also negating the lose of Shankland’s goals. The model is not just about discovering overlooked value in players it’s also about creating a team where the whole team is greater than the sum of the parts. Couldn't agree more. Devlin was the best player in the league last season until his injury. The idea that we will easily find an upgrade on him at or near the sums we will have to spend on a replacement is frankly preposterous.
Seymour M Hersh Posted May 28 Posted May 28 1 hour ago, ShedBoy said: Deary me. Do you do after dinner speaking? No but I'm available for a reasonable fee.
TexasAndy Posted May 28 Posted May 28 I’m a huge fan of Devlin and would love him to stay. I read different opinions of him from kickback etc but when Fergie tells McInnes that we are missing Devlin ( when he was out injured) that says it all for me.
spacerjoe Posted May 28 Posted May 28 3 hours ago, 77Mackay77 said: “Upgraded on Devlin” makes me chuckle. Will be very very difficult to find a player within our range that will produce the performances and stats the Devlin has. Bordering on impossible. But like with Shankland the process of replacement is more likely to be full moneyball rather than direct replacement. So a 1-3 signings make up for the loss of their output in their key areas and add higher/different output elsewhere. Cammy’s defensive stats in terms of things like tackles, defensive contributions and duels won are outstanding and hard to replace in one player. Using tackles as an example he made 113 in the season, 25 more than the second highest player in the league. Beni made 55, two players expected to score in the high 70-low 80s effectively makes up for both. And then it’s can one or both be higher in other areas like chances created, shots or goals. A higher goal contribution of 3-5 a piece then massively contributes to also negating the lose of Shankland’s goals. The model is not just about discovering overlooked value in players it’s also about creating a team where the whole team is greater than the sum of the parts. Mate, this is exactly what JTA does. We just bought a '£10M player' in Braga for 400 grand. I'll miss Devlin, he's been my favourite player since he joined. But saying we can't upgrade in him is an incredible take when you look a every other Bloom backed club.
Cisc0 K1d Posted May 28 Posted May 28 3 hours ago, 77Mackay77 said: “Upgraded on Devlin” makes me chuckle. Will be very very difficult to find a player within our range that will produce the performances and stats the Devlin has. Bordering on impossible. But like with Shankland the process of replacement is more likely to be full moneyball rather than direct replacement. So a 1-3 signings make up for the loss of their output in their key areas and add higher/different output elsewhere. Cammy’s defensive stats in terms of things like tackles, defensive contributions and duels won are outstanding and hard to replace in one player. Using tackles as an example he made 113 in the season, 25 more than the second highest player in the league. Beni made 55, two players expected to score in the high 70-low 80s effectively makes up for both. And then it’s can one or both be higher in other areas like chances created, shots or goals. A higher goal contribution of 3-5 a piece then massively contributes to also negating the lose of Shankland’s goals. The model is not just about discovering overlooked value in players it’s also about creating a team where the whole team is greater than the sum of the parts. I am a Devlin fan but makes me chuckle that someone thinks it will be bordering on impossible to replace him, not trying to have a go but if he was that good do you not think another club would have acted on the cheap buy out clause that was in his contract or even have signed him on a pre-contract knowing he was out of contract. I think the truth is that he has some real stand out defensive stats for a midfielder but just as you see with your own eyes when you watch him he also has some key deficiencies from the attacking midfielder side of things which he has not really addressed and improved on much over his time with us. All in all I would like him to stay, he is an easy character to support and get behind but I really don't think it will be very difficult to replace him with a better and more rounded midfielder.
Jamtastico Posted May 28 Posted May 28 With Devlin,Beni and shankland leaving, fundamentally the way we play will change. I'm not worried about a "replacement" for any of them. Just need to remember progress will not be a straight line up. There will be bumps.
Watt-Zeefuik Posted May 28 Posted May 28 11 minutes ago, Cisc0 K1d said: I am a Devlin fan but makes me chuckle that someone thinks it will be bordering on impossible to replace him, not trying to have a go but if he was that good do you not think another club would have acted on the cheap buy out clause that was in his contract or even have signed him on a pre-contract knowing he was out of contract. I think the truth is that he has some real stand out defensive stats for a midfielder but just as you see with your own eyes when you watch him he also has some key deficiencies from the attacking midfielder side of things which he has not really addressed and improved on much over his time with us. All in all I would like him to stay, he is an easy character to support and get behind but I really don't think it will be very difficult to replace him with a better and more rounded midfielder. There were rumours aplenty that the buyout clause had been offered and Devlin was out, but then he didn't go. We can't know for certain but I think it's highly likely that he declined the offers to stay at Hearts. It's a simple fact that for the money we have the ability to spend, the best we can do to replace his defensive ability is to find some young diamond in the rough and hope he grows into a player of Devlin's ability. I realize he doesn't contribute much on the attacking end but his defensive presence allowed our more attacking players much more leeway to play forward. When he went out, our other midfielders had to sit much deeper and it made us less dangerous.
Morgan Posted May 28 Posted May 28 3 hours ago, ShedBoy said: Deary me. Do you do after dinner speaking? He should. As an ex-Herioter, his diction is first class. As it should be from an Edinburgh lad. 2 hours ago, Seymour M Hersh said: No but I'm available for a reasonable fee. **** reasonable. Go for the big money, Mr Raeburn. 👍
Pingu Posted May 28 Posted May 28 We've signed six midfielders in the JTA era and none of them have yet proven to be a level above Devlin. Some of them may well go on to be far better, of course, but we're not there yet. Personally, I'd keep Cammy in a heartbeat. If he ends up sat on the bench or even in the stands because we've developed better, so be it. If we sell him in 6-12 months for a decent fee, all the better. I'm not saying we can't or won't find better. I just think the "sign better" vs "keep Devlin" debate is a false dichotomy. We should do both.
ShedBoy Posted May 28 Posted May 28 2 minutes ago, Morgan said: He should. As an ex-Herioter, his diction is first class. As it should be from an Edinburgh lad. **** reasonable. Go for the big money, Mr Raeburn. 👍 Embra born ‘n’ bred 👍🏻
Morgan Posted May 28 Posted May 28 1 minute ago, ShedBoy said: Embra born ‘n’ bred 👍🏻 I'm from Edinburgh.
The Real Maroonblood Posted May 28 Posted May 28 17 hours ago, Craigieboy said: Reports online he’s signing for Rangers.
Seymour M Hersh Posted May 28 Posted May 28 9 minutes ago, Morgan said: He should. As an ex-Herioter, his diction is first class. As it should be from an Edinburgh lad. **** reasonable. Go for the big money, Mr Raeburn. 👍 There is their reasonable and then there is my reasonable! As ABBA famously sang, money, money, money, it's a rich mans's world. 😎
AlphonseCapone Posted May 28 Posted May 28 24 minutes ago, Morgan said: He should. As an ex-Herioter, his diction is first class. As it should be from an Edinburgh lad. **** reasonable. Go for the big money, Mr Raeburn. 👍 This apply to you as well, Morgan?
Pasquale for King Posted May 28 Posted May 28 2 hours ago, TexasAndy said: I’m a huge fan of Devlin and would love him to stay. I read different opinions of him from kickback etc but when Fergie tells McInnes that we are missing Devlin ( when he was out injured) that says it all for me. He didn’t say that, McInnes admitted to making that up. We did miss him because we didn’t have a replacement for him, we will replace him if he goes.
Pasquale for King Posted May 28 Posted May 28 1 hour ago, Jamtastico said: With Devlin,Beni and shankland leaving, fundamentally the way we play will change. I'm not worried about a "replacement" for any of them. Just need to remember progress will not be a straight line up. There will be bumps. Our manager doesn’t have any other ways of playing, get it forward, wide and cross. What do you imagine will change?
TexasAndy Posted May 28 Posted May 28 38 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said: He didn’t say that, McInnes admitted to making that up. We did miss him because we didn’t have a replacement for him, we will replace him if he goes. He did say that. The bit McInnes made up was about Fergie saying he needs to shoot more. Fergie rating Devlin is true.
Pasquale for King Posted May 28 Posted May 28 10 minutes ago, TexasAndy said: He did say that. The bit McInnes made up was about Fergie saying he needs to shoot more. Fergie rating Devlin is true. Ok 👍🏾
Taffin Posted May 28 Posted May 28 1 hour ago, Pingu said: We've signed six midfielders in the JTA era and none of them have yet proven to be a level above Devlin. Some of them may well go on to be far better, of course, but we're not there yet. Personally, I'd keep Cammy in a heartbeat. If he ends up sat on the bench or even in the stands because we've developed better, so be it. If we sell him in 6-12 months for a decent fee, all the better. I'm not saying we can't or won't find better. I just think the "sign better" vs "keep Devlin" debate is a false dichotomy. We should do both. I agree. Both is a good shout. Also agree with your other point. He's supposedly so easy to replace, yet everyone we've brought in has offered less.
ManxandCapeTownJambo Posted May 28 Posted May 28 7 hours ago, Aussie Jambo said: Not sure if said but Joel Sked said he had interest from America MLS. He’d do very well in the US. Plus we’d get decent money for him. for who?
Cisc0 K1d Posted May 28 Posted May 28 4 hours ago, Watt-Zeefuik said: There were rumours aplenty that the buyout clause had been offered and Devlin was out, but then he didn't go. We can't know for certain but I think it's highly likely that he declined the offers to stay at Hearts. It's a simple fact that for the money we have the ability to spend, the best we can do to replace his defensive ability is to find some young diamond in the rough and hope he grows into a player of Devlin's ability. I realize he doesn't contribute much on the attacking end but his defensive presence allowed our more attacking players much more leeway to play forward. When he went out, our other midfielders had to sit much deeper and it made us less dangerous. I think when we give JTA our midfielder requirements to replace Devlin, I think we will be presented with a pretty long list particularly if the budget is anything like what Devlin will cost us to sign. I don't think we are looking for a diamond in the rough, I think we are just looking for a player who is undervalued in the team and league where he is currently playing, similar to Braga & Kizi but I'd suspect the market and competition for forwards and wingers is more competitive and expensive than it is for defensive midfielders.
Triggers Broom Posted May 28 Posted May 28 He will use the World Cup as a shop window hoping teams are watching him ( he will need to play this one ) and not beg for Messi top. Would not be surprised if he’s at Rangers next season, that comment he made about his Mrs family being Rangers fans doesn’t sit right now with me after Shankland’s nonsense last week.
Morgan Posted May 28 Posted May 28 3 hours ago, AlphonseCapone said: This apply to you as well, Morgan? But of course, Al.
Morgan Posted May 28 Posted May 28 3 hours ago, Seymour M Hersh said: There is their reasonable and then there is my reasonable! As ABBA famously sang, money, money, money, it's a rich mans's world. 😎
Pasquale for King Posted May 28 Posted May 28 1 hour ago, Triggers Broom said: He will use the World Cup as a shop window hoping teams are watching him ( he will need to play this one ) and not beg for Messi top. Would not be surprised if he’s at Rangers next season, that comment he made about his Mrs family being Rangers fans doesn’t sit right now with me after Shankland’s nonsense last week. He’s still not guaranteed to even go yet, will find out on June 1st.
RustyRightPeg Posted May 28 Posted May 28 5 hours ago, Pingu said: We've signed six midfielders in the JTA era and none of them have yet proven to be a level above Devlin. Some of them may well go on to be far better, of course, but we're not there yet. Personally, I'd keep Cammy in a heartbeat. If he ends up sat on the bench or even in the stands because we've developed better, so be it. If we sell him in 6-12 months for a decent fee, all the better. I'm not saying we can't or won't find better. I just think the "sign better" vs "keep Devlin" debate is a false dichotomy. We should do both. Why would we? He’s had a dirt cheap release clause for years and nobodies triggered it.
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