Israel and US attacks Iran

[Victorian]

2 minutes ago, Boab said:

The US will never stop their support of Israel, militarily or otherwise. It may seem something that people want to happen but to dramatically weaken a nuclear state is dangerous anywhere. When it concerns the maniacs in control in Israel, it’s frightening !

It’s been carefully created over the decades. And won’t change. 

 

Don't think anyone thinks that.   But the US uses it's influence over Israel along those lines.   Israel is becoming incrementally more difficult to control though.   The US needs to regain the strength of influence it had before,  before Israel gets the belief it has an absolute free hand.

[hughesie27]

Reports that Iran is being bombed again

 

But from who Chris Kamara?

[Boab]

5 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

Don't think anyone thinks that.   But the US uses it's influence over Israel along those lines.   Israel is becoming incrementally more difficult to control though.   The US needs to regain the strength of influence it had before,  before Israel gets the belief it has an absolute free hand.

Yea, I agree but it’s a difficult balancing act. 

[Diadora Van Basten]

6 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

Don't think anyone thinks that.   But the US uses it's influence over Israel along those lines.   Israel is becoming incrementally more difficult to control though.   The US needs to regain the strength of influence it had before,  before Israel gets the belief it has an absolute free hand.

Israel has used the fighter jets that would normally be attacking Iran to launch a barbaric attack on Lebanon murdering 80 people and injuring over 700 including women and children. 

 

US has said that Lebanon is not part of the ceasefire.

 

Iran says if attacks on Lebanon don’t stop immediately they won’t open up the Straits of Hormuz.

 

Caroline Leavitt press conference certainly doesn’t sound like a ceasefire is happening it sounds like they are still at war.

[MoncurMacdonaldMercer]

trump looking like one of the weakest men in the world

 

 

 

[Victorian]

19 minutes ago, Diadora Van Basten said:

Israel has used the fighter jets that would normally be attacking Iran to launch a barbaric attack on Lebanon murdering 80 people and injuring over 700 including women and children. 

 

US has said that Lebanon is not part of the ceasefire.

 

Iran says if attacks on Lebanon don’t stop immediately they won’t open up the Straits of Hormuz.

 

Caroline Leavitt press conference certainly doesn’t sound like a ceasefire is happening it sounds like they are still at war.

 

I know.   The US appear to be oblivious.   Iran is continuing to control the narrative and balance of power in the so-called discussions or deal making.   The ceasefire wont see the weekend at this rate.

[biglaff]

That Karoline Leavitt is one horrible cow. When Trump is finally gone and all this is over, she is going to end up in prison, along with others. She lies as much as Trump does. I remember when listening to the American government speak meant you could pretty much trust their comments, but now it is akin to listening to a North Korean statement, and I am not using hyperbole here , it really has got that bad. Just truly amazing how much the country has fallen, and we probably haven't even reached the nadir yet.

[il Duce McTarkin]

21 minutes ago, Watt-Zeefuik said:

 

Seriously, who do you think these shadowy Jewish bankers are?

 

The ones in the Harry Potter films, surely?

[redjambo]

1 hour ago, Victorian said:

The rabid dog thinks it can act outside of the ceasefire.   Iran says think again.   If Israel does that,  we'll do this.   The Americans will be encouraged to get the rabid dog back in it's cage,  if they haven't worked it out for themselves.

 

Yup, as far as I can see, although I haven't read any news over the last few hours as I've been hard at work, Israel broke the cease-fire (100% intentionally) so Iran are doubling down. Will Trump put Israel in its place? I think not. Israel is playing the US like a fiddle.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

20 minutes ago, Taffin said:

 

Isn't the Goldman Sachs CEO Jewish?

 

Ah, right you are. I was thinking that was Dimon's gig, but he's at JP Morgan Chase. That makes one, I suppose. Here's their board of directors, though:

 

https://www.goldmansachs.com/our-firm/our-people-and-leadership/leadership

 

Not exactly a catalog of New York's Jewery.

 

Anyway, Morgan Chase (the biggest)'s CEO is Greek, Bank of America's CEO is Irish, Ted Pick (Morgan Stanely) grew up in Venezuela, Jane Fraser (Citigroup) is from St. Andrews.

 

BUT THE JEWS ARE IN CONTROL LIKESY!

[Norm]

5 minutes ago, Watt-Zeefuik said:

 

Ah, right you are. I was thinking that was Dimon's gig, but he's at JP Morgan Chase. That makes one, I suppose. Here's their board of directors, though:

 

https://www.goldmansachs.com/our-firm/our-people-and-leadership/leadership

 

Not exactly a catalog of New York's Jewery.

 

Anyway, Morgan Chase (the biggest)'s CEO is Greek, Bank of America's CEO is Irish, Ted Pick (Morgan Stanely) grew up in Venezuela, Jane Fraser (Citigroup) is from St. Andrews.

 

BUT THE JEWS ARE IN CONTROL LIKESY!

A Fifer?!? That's even worse!

[hughesie27]

46 minutes ago, biglaff said:

That Karoline Leavitt is one horrible cow. When Trump is finally gone and all this is over, she is going to end up in prison, along with others. She lies as much as Trump does. 

Her job is literally to be the voice of the President and convey his opinions and policies. So lying as much as him is her job.

[Footballfirst]

18 minutes ago, Norm said:

A Fifer?!? That's even worse!

Fife bankers? I'll give you Gavin Masterton!!

[Taffin]

25 minutes ago, Watt-Zeefuik said:

 

Ah, right you are. I was thinking that was Dimon's gig, but he's at JP Morgan Chase. That makes one, I suppose. Here's their board of directors, though:

 

https://www.goldmansachs.com/our-firm/our-people-and-leadership/leadership

 

Not exactly a catalog of New York's Jewery.

 

Anyway, Morgan Chase (the biggest)'s CEO is Greek, Bank of America's CEO is Irish, Ted Pick (Morgan Stanely) grew up in Venezuela, Jane Fraser (Citigroup) is from St. Andrews.

 

BUT THE JEWS ARE IN CONTROL LIKESY!

 

Exception that proves the rule (of it not being a Jewish cabal).

 

Also sorry if you took that as me saying it was, just thought a banking giant with a Jewish CEO was an interesting choice to use to prove your point 😂

[ScotsAndy]

Pakistan who brokered the ceasefire deal have confirmed that the agreement included cessation of hostilities on the Lebanon front  - I know who I would believe if I was asked to chose between USA/Israel and Pakistan.   Old Bibi is working Trump from behind and is determined to get the Ceasefire blootered so he can continue his Genocidal madness.

[il Duce McTarkin]

1 hour ago, Watt-Zeefuik said:

BUT THE JEWS ARE IN CONTROL LIKESY!

 

 

Mate. 

[Watt-Zeefuik]

46 minutes ago, Taffin said:

 

Exception that proves the rule (of it not being a Jewish cabal).

 

Also sorry if you took that as me saying it was, just thought a banking giant with a Jewish CEO was an interesting choice to use to prove your point 😂

I didn't take it that way, but it was a bit of a silly mistake to make for the point I was trying to say.

[Cade]

1 hour ago, biglaff said:

That Karoline Leavitt is one horrible cow. When Trump is finally gone and all this is over, she is going to end up in prison, along with others. She lies as much as Trump does. I remember when listening to the American government speak meant you could pretty much trust their comments, but now it is akin to listening to a North Korean statement, and I am not using hyperbole here , it really has got that bad. Just truly amazing how much the country has fallen, and we probably haven't even reached the nadir yet.

[Footballfirst]

53 minutes ago, ScotsAndy said:

Pakistan who brokered the ceasefire deal have confirmed that the agreement included cessation of hostilities on the Lebanon front  - I know who I would believe if I was asked to chose between USA/Israel and Pakistan.   Old Bibi is working Trump from behind and is determined to get the Ceasefire blootered so he can continue his Genocidal madness.

From the Beeb:

 

Earlier, Iranian Parliament Speaker Mohammad Bagher Ghalibaf said on his X account that three clauses of Iran’s 10-point proposal have been "openly and clearly violated" - including a proposed ceasefire in Lebanon.

Vance says he's seen the post and takes it as a positive. If there are only three points of contention, that signals broad agreement, the vice-president says.

But he does write off some of Ghalibaf's points.

"I actually wonder how good he is at understanding English," he says. "Because there are things that he said that frankly didn't make sense in the context of the negotiations that we've had."

He went on to call the Lebanon question a "reasonable misunderstanding".

"Ceasefires are always messy," he says, adding that they never go off without some "choppiness".

 

So Vance questions the Iranians' understanding of English, also implicitly questioning the Pakistanis' understanding of English.

 

There is also the alternative that they took the words of the American delegation in good faith, but failed to appreciate that the Trump administration has a problem with facts and the truth.  

[Tommy Brown]

21 hours ago, Footballfirst said:

The 10-point plan for the conditional ceasefire, according to Iran

published at 00:20

00:20

Here is the 10-point plan, according to an Iranian state broadcaster:

 

Complete cessation of the war on Iraq, Lebanon, and Yemen

Complete and permanent cessation of the war on Iran with no time limit

Ending all conflicts in the region in their entirety

Reopening the Strait of Hormuz

Establishing a protocol and conditions to ensure freedom and security of navigation in the Strait of Hormuz

Full payment of compensation for reconstruction costs to Iran

Full commitment to lifting sanctions on Iran

Release of Iranian funds and frozen assets held by the United States

Iran fully commits to not seeking possession of any nuclear weapons

Immediate ceasefire takes effect on all fronts immediately upon approval of the above conditions

 

 

Further information from the BBC

 

Iran formally agrees to ceasefire and to open Strait of Hormuz if attacks stop

published at 00:25

00:25

Breaking

Iranian Foreign Minister Abbas Araghchi has announced Iran will agree to a ceasefire "if attacks against Iran are halted".

 

He continues "for a period of two weeks, safe passage through the Strait of Hormuz will be possible".

 

This will take place "via co-ordination with Iran's Armed Forces and with due consideration of technical limitations", he says.

 

13 hours ago, Tommy Brown said:

My quick reading of the 10 point plan.

Iran will not develop a nuclear weapon, Trump will claim victory.

 

The rest is all Iranian victory (huge, even)

 

Point 1 will be the stumbling block in a fortnight. 

 

57 minutes ago, ScotsAndy said:

Pakistan who brokered the ceasefire deal have confirmed that the agreement included cessation of hostilities on the Lebanon front  - I know who I would believe if I was asked to chose between USA/Israel and Pakistan.   Old Bibi is working Trump from behind and is determined to get the Ceasefire blootered so he can continue his Genocidal madness.

This was posted yesterday and I said then that it was all massive win for Iran, with Trump able to say a win for the US on nuclear bomb development front.

 

Did tangoman not bluster some shite that these terms didn't involve Israel.

[Ked]

Algorithm check here.

 

So Pakistani got wind of Iranian deal brokers getting close to a peace deal about to be wiped out by Israelis.

They tell trump.

Trump tells Israelis don't you dare.

Israelis drop a bomb next to the Pakistani consulate in Iran.

 

Any validation ?

[Watt-Zeefuik]

Josh Marshall:

 

Quote

First, just because Donald Trump is an inveterate liar, don’t assume that Iran is a reliable narrator about anything that was agreed to in this deal. (Was there a deal? We’ll get to that.) One thing both sides explicitly agree on, coming right from President Trump himself, is that the 10 point Iranian plan will serve as the basis for discussions over the next two weeks. The early accounts of what that document included focused on a lot things Iran wants, even including things it wanted before the war broke out. It doesn’t really focus on the things the US notionally got into this war for. (We’ll get in a moment to what’s included in the document Iran released today.) For the US this ceasefire is at best a ceasefire on the basis of a stalemate, where the fight is about a draw and both sides want to see if they can bring the fight to an end.

That’s the optimistic view. The US has clearly been more eager to get to the negotiating table. It’s the US that wants out most. The items on that list tilt heavily toward Iran. The Iranians appear to be exercising continued control of the Strait Hormuz even if they may allow ships to go through – “allow” being the key word.

Iran has now released a new version of its ten points that seems wildly more aggressive the what Trump appeared to be referring to. It’s a maximalist set of demands which requires the US to abandon the region and leaves Iran as the local hegemon. It sounds like they’re now trying to come in with a maximalist set of demands. Or maybe Trump was so desperate to get to a ceasefire that he agreed to it regardless. What’s true in either case is that to the extent we are going to see a negotiation it definitely seems like one in which the US has the weaker hand and comes to the negotiation as the loser in the conflict. To emphasize the point Iran doesn’t seem shy about embarrassing Trump during the early hours of the purported ceasefire. They’re now announced that they will let only 12 ships transit the Strait each day, even after Trump claimed he’d forced the Iranians to reopen it entirely. That’s just a fraction of the normal traffic. The Iranians are humiliating him at every turn likely because they know he wants the ceasefire too badly to throw it into doubt.

Every way to look at this, whichever documents decisions are being based on, the US is trying to get out of the war more than Iran is. That’s notwithstanding the fact that Iran has suffered almost incalculably more damage. But this comes back to a point we discussed at the outset of the conflict. It’s never about the absolute amount of damage. It’s about the stakes for each side. For Iran it’s the survival of their government and an entire theological-political worldview. Donald Trump is trying to avoid losing control of both houses of Congress. Those aren’t comparable things. Trump stumbled into this conflict. He’s botched it badly and is now looking at the choice between a manageable strategic defeat or doubling or tripling down and guaranteeing something far worse. Trump seems to be working to get out on embarrassing but not catastrophic terms. But it’s not clear he can, given his need to dominate in all cases and how in hock he is to regional players who are aghast that Trump has somehow managed to create a situation where Iran emerges stronger from the conflict in which it has taken such a tactical beating.

This is what it’s like when you’re losing and you’re trying to wriggle out before you lose more. There’s no real other way to put it.

 

[Maple Leaf]

From experience, the Iranians know that the Americans can't be trusted.

From experience, the Americans know that the Iranians can't be trusted.

From experience, everyone knows that the Israelis will do whatever they want.

 

Good luck to the people who will try to negotiate a lasting peace deal out of that situation.

 

 

[il Duce McTarkin]

1 hour ago, Footballfirst said:

From the Beeb:

 

Earlier, Iranian Parliament Speaker Mohammad Bagher Ghalibaf said on his X account that three clauses of Iran’s 10-point proposal have been "openly and clearly violated" - including a proposed ceasefire in Lebanon.

Vance says he's seen the post and takes it as a positive. If there are only three points of contention, that signals broad agreement, the vice-president says.

But he does write off some of Ghalibaf's points.

"I actually wonder how good he is at understanding English," he says. "Because there are things that he said that frankly didn't make sense in the context of the negotiations that we've had."

He went on to call the Lebanon question a "reasonable misunderstanding".

"Ceasefires are always messy," he says, adding that they never go off without some "choppiness".

 

So Vance questions the Iranians' understanding of English, also implicitly questioning the Pakistanis' understanding of English.

 

There is also the alternative that they took the words of the American delegation in good faith, but failed to appreciate that the Trump administration has a problem with facts and the truth.  

 

Vance is more dangerous than Trump.

[il Duce McTarkin]

17 minutes ago, Maple Leaf said:

From experience, the Iranians know that the Americans can't be trusted.

From experience, the Americans know that the Iranians can't be trusted.

From experience, everyone knows that the Israelis will do whatever they want.

 

Good luck to the people who will try to negotiate a lasting peace deal out of that situation.

 

 

 

 

 

[That thing you do]

4 hours ago, hughesie27 said:

Reports that Iran is being bombed again

 

But from who Chris Kamara?

Thanks Jeff.

 

A chaotic start to the second half of this tie. Israel had a shot that went over the bar, several were caught by Lebanon.

Then a cross from the UAE was prodded home and in past the keeper at the near post. USA claiming the assist on it.

 

Game on again after things went off the boil, Iran 2-1 Coalition, next goal will be crucial in this one Jeff. 

 

[Chairman of the Bored]

4 hours ago, biglaff said:

That Karoline Leavitt is one horrible cow. When Trump is finally gone and all this is over, she is going to end up in prison, along with others. She lies as much as Trump does. I remember when listening to the American government speak meant you could pretty much trust their comments, but now it is akin to listening to a North Korean statement, and I am not using hyperbole here , it really has got that bad. Just truly amazing how much the country has fallen, and we probably haven't even reached the nadir yet.

She’s a lovely woman. 

[Tommy Brown]

Numerous Agreements, Lists, and Letters are being sent out by people that have absolutely nothing to do with the U.S.A. / Iran Negotiation, in many cases, they are total Fraudsters, Charlatans, and WORSE. They will be rapidly exposed after our Federal Investigation is completed. There is only one group of meaningful “POINTS” that are acceptable to the United States, and we will be discussing them behind closed doors during these Negotiations. These are the POINTS that are the basis on which we agreed to a CEASEFIRE. It is something that is reasonable, and can easily be dispensed with. It’s very much like Fake News CNN last night, headlining a “source” that had no power or authority to write a Letter claiming great authority. President DONALD J. TRUMP

[trotter]

Something that i've never been able to square away (and I do not claim to be any sort of foreign affairs expert). 

 

Just why is the US so desperate to support Israel at all costs? 

 

The three supporting arguments that i've repeatedly seen are:

 

1) Out of guilt for what happened to the Jews in WW2

 

2) To maintain influence in that area of the world

 

3) Its just too profitable to stop supplying arms to them

 

I can make reasonable arguments for and against all of them. But I genuinely can't come to a conclusion

 

[Craig_]

3 hours ago, trotter said:

Something that i've never been able to square away (and I do not claim to be any sort of foreign affairs expert). 

 

Just why is the US so desperate to support Israel at all costs? 

 

The three supporting arguments that i've repeatedly seen are:

 

1) Out of guilt for what happened to the Jews in WW2

 

2) To maintain influence in that area of the world

 

3) Its just too profitable to stop supplying arms to them

 

I can make reasonable arguments for and against all of them. But I genuinely can't come to a conclusion

 

 

The Israelis (much like Russia) have compromising material on Trump which would destroy him? 

[Tommy Brown]

A strange one to start with

 

NATO WASN’T THERE WHEN WE NEEDED THEM, AND THEY WON’T BE THERE IF WE NEED THEM AGAIN. REMEMBER GREENLAND, THAT BIG, POORLY RUN, PIECE OF ICE!!! President DJT

[Tommy Brown]

Then one to discredit the press

 

The Failing New York Times and Fake News CNN each reported a totally FAKE TEN POINT PLAN on the Iran negotiations which was meant to discredit the people involved in the peace process. All ten points were a made up HOAX - EVIL LOSERS!!! MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN

 

 

All 10 were a hoax.

What are the new 10 then?

[The Mighty Thor]

Just now, Tommy Brown said:

A strange one to start with

 

NATO WASN’T THERE WHEN WE NEEDED THEM, AND THEY WON’T BE THERE IF WE NEED THEM AGAIN. REMEMBER GREENLAND, THAT BIG, POORLY RUN, PIECE OF ICE!!! President DJT

Not strange at all given his mental state and the fact he surrounded by dangerous sycophants.

 

He'll try to take Greenland at some point.

 

Maybe Bibi will tell him it's a hotbed of hezbollah

[Tommy Brown]

Finally

 

All U.S. Ships, Aircraft, and Military Personnel, with additional Ammunition, Weaponry, and anything else that is appropriate and necessary for the lethal prosecution and destruction of an already substantially degraded Enemy, will remain in place in, and around, Iran, until such time as the REAL AGREEMENT reached is fully complied with. If for any reason it is not, which is highly unlikely, then the “Shootin’ Starts,” bigger, and better, and stronger than anyone has ever seen before. It was agreed, a long time ago, and despite all of the fake rhetoric to the contrary - NO NUCLEAR WEAPONS and, the Strait of Hormuz WILL BE OPEN & SAFE. In the meantime our great Military is Loading Up and Resting, looking forward, actually, to its next Conquest. AMERICA IS BACK!

[Taffin]

7 hours ago, That thing you do said:

Thanks Jeff.

 

A chaotic start to the second half of this tie. Israel had a shot that went over the bar, several were caught by Lebanon.

Then a cross from the UAE was prodded home and in past the keeper at the near post. USA claiming the assist on it.

 

Game on again after things went off the boil, Iran 2-1 Coalition, next goal will be crucial in this one Jeff. 

 

 

😂😂👍👍

[Diadora Van Basten]

19 minutes ago, Tommy Brown said:

Finally

 

All U.S. Ships, Aircraft, and Military Personnel, with additional Ammunition, Weaponry, and anything else that is appropriate and necessary for the lethal prosecution and destruction of an already substantially degraded Enemy, will remain in place in, and around, Iran, until such time as the REAL AGREEMENT reached is fully complied with. If for any reason it is not, which is highly unlikely, then the “Shootin’ Starts,” bigger, and better, and stronger than anyone has ever seen before. It was agreed, a long time ago, and despite all of the fake rhetoric to the contrary - NO NUCLEAR WEAPONS and, the Strait of Hormuz WILL BE OPEN & SAFE. In the meantime our great Military is Loading Up and Resting, looking forward, actually, to its next Conquest. AMERICA IS BACK!

Next Conquest! The US is really winning the moral argument. 
 

 

Why on earth are the US supporting Israel killing civilians and stealing land in Lebanon. There is a benefit for Israel but Lebanon has no strategic importance to the US.

 

The US negotiating team is made up of three Zionists surely with the size of the population you could find someone who is not a Zionist to represent the US. Kushner in particular has loyalties to Israel that likely exceed his loyalties to the US.

Edited April 9 by Diadora Van Basten

[biglaff]

20 hours ago, Boab said:

Yip.

Vance turning up in Hungary is to shore up support for the pro-Israeli maniac !

 

 

On Polymarket , Magyar is 72% with Orban only 29%. Many people predicting a landslide win for Magyar. I hope so. I live next door to Hungary (Slovakia), and know quite a few Hungarians who despise Orban. 

[Tazio]

So this is the world we live in now. An America run by idiots who spend their time sabre rattling and trying to rule the world, an an Israel that are out of control and merrily bomb the living shit out of anyone they fancy killing. And the continued impotence of the UN. 

[Tommy Brown]

36 minutes ago, biglaff said:

On Polymarket , Magyar is 72% with Orban only 29%. Many people predicting a landslide win for Magyar. I hope so. I live next door to Hungary (Slovakia), and know quite a few Hungarians who despise Orban. 

Just watched last night's BBC Newsnight, which finished with Vance's speech supporting Orban.

FFS. You would think Orban losing, was a vote against the USA.

Why are they so desperate to have a Putin ally in place? (Loaded question)

 

Additional ( from Guardian)

Vance quotes

 

“It’s unprecedented for an American vice-president to come the week before an election,” he said. But he said he had decided to come because of what he described as the “garbage happening against” Orbán in the election.

“We had to show that there are actually lots of friends across the world who recognise that Viktor and his government are doing a good job and they’re important partners for peace,” he said.

Vance insisted, however, that his efforts to bolster the lagging campaign of the rightwing, populist leader – whose “illiberal democracy” has long been seen as an inspiration for the Maga movement – did not constitute foreign interference. “I find it darkly ironic that people are accusing me of engaging in some kind of foreign influence,” he said.

Edited April 9 by Tommy Brown

[Star Lizard]

30 minutes ago, Tommy Brown said:

Just watched last night's BBC Newsnight, which finished with Vance's speech supporting Orban.

FFS. You would think Orban losing, was a vote against the USA.

Why are they so desperate to have a Putin ally in place? (Loaded question)

 

Additional ( from Guardian)

Vance quotes

 

“It’s unprecedented for an American vice-president to come the week before an election,” he said. But he said he had decided to come because of what he described as the “garbage happening against” Orbán in the election.

“We had to show that there are actually lots of friends across the world who recognise that Viktor and his government are doing a good job and they’re important partners for peace,” he said.

Vance insisted, however, that his efforts to bolster the lagging campaign of the rightwing, populist leader – whose “illiberal democracy” has long been seen as an inspiration for the Maga movement – did not constitute foreign interference. “I find it darkly ironic that people are accusing me of engaging in some kind of foreign influence,” he said.

The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.

George Orwell, 1984

[MoncurMacdonaldMercer]

2 hours ago, Craig_ said:

 

The Israelis (much like Russia) have compromising material on Trump which would destroy him? 

 

the israel usa relationship pre-dates trump by decades - in the original post option (2) is likely to be at least one of the reasons

 

 

 

[Japan Jambo]

13 hours ago, Norm said:

A Fifer?!? That's even worse!

 

"It taks a lang spoon tae sup wi' a Fifer" 

[Tommy Brown]

 

Jen Psaki sums all up great in this episode.

[biglaff]

2 hours ago, Tommy Brown said:

Just watched last night's BBC Newsnight, which finished with Vance's speech supporting Orban.

FFS. You would think Orban losing, was a vote against the USA.

Why are they so desperate to have a Putin ally in place? (Loaded question)

 

Additional ( from Guardian)

Vance quotes

 

“It’s unprecedented for an American vice-president to come the week before an election,” he said. But he said he had decided to come because of what he described as the “garbage happening against” Orbán in the election.

“We had to show that there are actually lots of friends across the world who recognise that Viktor and his government are doing a good job and they’re important partners for peace,” he said.

Vance insisted, however, that his efforts to bolster the lagging campaign of the rightwing, populist leader – whose “illiberal democracy” has long been seen as an inspiration for the Maga movement – did not constitute foreign interference. “I find it darkly ironic that people are accusing me of engaging in some kind of foreign influence,” he said.

It is just laughable that he doesn't consider his visit to be interfering in another country's elections.

[Victorian]

Did he really criticise NATO for not helping him take territory from a NATO member?   Well of course.

 

Inter-alliance cannibalism.   We're going to take a bite out of your leg.   Stop pulling it away and hand me the HP Sauce.   

[Kells_On_Jackson]

I don't think it's so much as Israel runs the US, i think it's more simple, basically Israel being a proxy of the US, same deal as Ukraine. The US needs these proxies to contain China/Russia and prevent that multi polar world we all want. Venezuela first to go down, then they failed in Iran (for now),  regime changed Ukraine thinking that would tie down Russia, but that didn't work either and so what's next? 

Anyway, i think the likes of Trumps Zionist donors/Mark Levin/Graham etc will be pushing hard to go next level and won't be surprised if this whole thing kicks off again very soon.

 

 

[Diadora Van Basten]

18 minutes ago, Kells_On_Jackson said:

I don't think it's so much as Israel runs the US, i think it's more simple, basically Israel being a proxy of the US, same deal as Ukraine. The US needs these proxies to contain China/Russia and prevent that multi polar world we all want. Venezuela first to go down, then they failed in Iran (for now),  regime changed Ukraine thinking that would tie down Russia, but that didn't work either and so what's next? 

Anyway, i think the likes of Trumps Zionist donors/Mark Levin/Graham etc will be pushing hard to go next level and won't be surprised if this whole thing kicks off again very soon.

 

 

Mark Levin was pushing for the US to use a nuclear weapon on Iran and his influence over Trump is not insignificant.

 

The original MAGA media commentators hate him. 

[Watt-Zeefuik]

12 hours ago, trotter said:

Something that i've never been able to square away (and I do not claim to be any sort of foreign affairs expert). 

 

Just why is the US so desperate to support Israel at all costs? 

 

The three supporting arguments that i've repeatedly seen are:

 

1) Out of guilt for what happened to the Jews in WW2

 

2) To maintain influence in that area of the world

 

3) Its just too profitable to stop supplying arms to them

 

I can make reasonable arguments for and against all of them. But I genuinely can't come to a conclusion

 

 

52 minutes ago, Kells_On_Jackson said:

I don't think it's so much as Israel runs the US, i think it's more simple, basically Israel being a proxy of the US, same deal as Ukraine. The US needs these proxies to contain China/Russia and prevent that multi polar world we all want. Venezuela first to go down, then they failed in Iran (for now),  regime changed Ukraine thinking that would tie down Russia, but that didn't work either and so what's next? 

Anyway, i think the likes of Trumps Zionist donors/Mark Levin/Graham etc will be pushing hard to go next level and won't be surprised if this whole thing kicks off again very soon.

 

 

 

I think Kells is mostly right but I think there's a little more to it. Certainly a lot of it is that Israel is the US's primary proxy in the mid-east. But there's other levels to it as well.

 

Answer 1. above is true for a lot of Americans, particularly older ones. My aunt was like this—basically, we failed Europe's Jews in WW2 when we turned so many away, supporting Israel is a kind of penance.

 

Second, Jewish Americans are not some shadowy cabal or in control of everything, but they are extremely well organized, politically, and for many of them (again, particularly older ones), support for Israel is issue #1. They're a large enough population in several swing states and swing districts that going against them is politically dangerous. And there are enough wealthy Israel supporters that put very large sums of money into AIPAC that they can sway Congressional races, and they pick their fights for maximum influence.

 

Third, there's a bit of coincidence to it. I have friends that have been working for Palestinian rights for decades and they were the ones who were the least surprised that Biden let the atrocities in Gaza happen. Biden has been one of the most pro-Israel politicians in Washington since the 1980s, for all three reasons above (guilt, proxy state, political funding). It's just who he is. Trump supports Israel because Netanyahu specifically stonewalled Biden and Harris on Gaza policy because it would help Trump's election, and Trump loves people who do him favors like that. So we've just happened to have 12 years of Presidents who were reflexively pro-Israel. Go back a little further and Obama did try to push Palestinian self-determination but he was always a cautious centrist. Further back than that, GWB won in Florida in 2000 in part because Florida's Jewish population had been largely Democratic but Bush effectively criticized Clinton's role in supporting the Oslo accords as too pro-Palestinian. That helped him win in 2000 so narrowly and he stuck with it.

 

So of the past 26 years, 18 of them have had staunchly pro-Israel Presidents for different reasons but with mostly the same outcome.

[redjambo]

4 hours ago, biglaff said:

It is just laughable that he doesn't consider his visit to be interfering in another country's elections.

 

It genuinely makes me uncomfortable when I see any country interfering in another country's political process, except to provide independent poll monitors.

[The Real Maroonblood]

11 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

It genuinely makes me uncomfortable when I see any country interfering in another country's political process, except to provide independent poll monitors.

Did Truss and Farage not do the same in the USA?