James Wilson

[davie1980]

11 hours ago, shauncl said:

Dundee,Dunbloodydee after their fans celebrated us losing to them to lose the league in '86', some folk have very short memories 

 

Short memories?

 

Some folk on here weren't born in 86 mate

[davie1980]

6 minutes ago, spacerjoe said:

Being in and around what is happening at the club now and training with the new manager and recruits will have done him no harm at all.

 

He will see how hard it is also to break through in top teams and what he needs to do to break through.

 

Taking that experience on to a loan in January will serve him better, in my opinion.

 

It will have been of benefit to him in a way.

 

But not, IMO, better than having racked up 12 games and a few goals at a lower premier/top championship club

 

[I P Knightley]

11 hours ago, Babertonhearts said:

"Rudi must stay" you mean? Don't think so.

That's funny! 

 

Also, I suppose there's a difference between "left school" and "finished school" which may apply. 

[I P Knightley]

10 hours ago, FarmerTweedy said:

Stopping going to school isn't the same as finishing school!  😉

Sorry, Farmer. 

I wrote the same without having seen your post. 

[rudi must stay]

36 minutes ago, I P Knightley said:

Sorry, Farmer. 

I wrote the same without having seen your post. 

 

Neither of you are correct. If you said hadn't graduated from university or college you'd be right but I do alright without bragging

[I P Knightley]

5 minutes ago, rudi must stay said:

 

Neither of you are correct. If you said hadn't graduated from university or college you'd be right but I do alright without bragging

You're one of the good guys on here and I didn't mean to start a pile-on but am just goofing around with the English language, not intending to target you. 

 

BUT:

 

"Neither of you IS correct..."

 

And if that makes me a grammar Nazi, so be it. 

[rudi must stay]

38 minutes ago, I P Knightley said:

You're one of the good guys on here and I didn't mean to start a pile-on but am just goofing around with the English language, not intending to target you. 

 

BUT:

 

"Neither of you IS correct..."

 

And if that makes me a grammar Nazi, so be it. 

 

No problem 

[FIGJAM]

Not going to be many young players left at the club. How Roger Arnott especially, and Frankie McEvoy must look at Hearts and wonder how can a club get it so wrong from a young player development perspective.

12 months ago they had the best player in Scotland at 2007, 2008 and 2010. Each player captaining their year group at National level, indeed one player was about to breakthrough to the first team. Given the money in football, one would have assumed Hearts would have managed the situation carefully. On top of the three players above, Hearts had 2 other players at 2010 level attracting interest as well as a few others getting deserved International recognition.

Fast forward 12 months and Hearts have literally self-destructed their youth model. The new Andy Webster and Shelley Kerr framework, aptly named the “Hearts Way”, looks to get 2 young players every year into the First Team (their my claim, not mine). While not official, no B Team next year means parents now talking matters into their own hands. As spoken about in other threads, Hearts going to lose the following players:

·         James Wilson (agent PLG)  - off on loan to Europe

·         Alfie Osborne (agent CAA Base) – deal to Newcastle nearing fruition

·         Alfie and Stanley Wilson – deals to EPL clubs progressing

·         Kier McMeekin (agent Wasserman) – informed Hearts he is moving, off to Man City or Man Utd

·         Boyd Fraser and Peter Kelloch (agent CAA Base) – strong interest from EPL clubs.

Note – if you think the above is false, go along to a B Team / u19/u17 game and ask the players parents. Michael /Angus / Scott / Stevie / Alastair will be only too happy to share their views.

As someone involved in football for 30+ years, I have never known a club to put their youth pathway into reverse so quickly. In the last month, I have had a coffee with Foxy, Joe Savage and Barry Hunter (Liverpool). All three can not believe how quickly Hearts have ripped up what others spent years growing and developing.

Hearts going to generate very little from the above departures. With exception of Wilson, others will be Development / training fee compensation. Barry aware of the numbers Hearts turned down in the summer for Wilson – we are talking Lennon Miller sums with a number starting with a 4. But he also noted that Hearts unlikely to get £1m now as boy not played. If true, this is crazy mis-management.

In Bloom we trust, but hard to see why First Team success could not have been achieved in conjunction with youth development, rather than at its expense.

[RustyRightPeg]

7 hours ago, steve123 said:

It would be interesting to know what his James Town score was and how this fits into future plans.

Considering we were actively shopping him in the summer…not ridiculously high. 

[Drylaw Hearts]

19 minutes ago, FIGJAM said:

Not going to be many young players left at the club. How Roger Arnott especially, and Frankie McEvoy must look at Hearts and wonder how can a club get it so wrong from a young player development perspective.

12 months ago they had the best player in Scotland at 2007, 2008 and 2010. Each player captaining their year group at National level, indeed one player was about to breakthrough to the first team. Given the money in football, one would have assumed Hearts would have managed the situation carefully. On top of the three players above, Hearts had 2 other players at 2010 level attracting interest as well as a few others getting deserved International recognition.

Fast forward 12 months and Hearts have literally self-destructed their youth model. The new Andy Webster and Shelley Kerr framework, aptly named the “Hearts Way”, looks to get 2 young players every year into the First Team (their my claim, not mine). While not official, no B Team next year means parents now talking matters into their own hands. As spoken about in other threads, Hearts going to lose the following players:

·         James Wilson (agent PLG)  - off on loan to Europe

·         Alfie Osborne (agent CAA Base) – deal to Newcastle nearing fruition

·         Alfie and Stanley Wilson – deals to EPL clubs progressing

·         Kier McMeekin (agent Wasserman) – informed Hearts he is moving, off to Man City or Man Utd

·         Boyd Fraser and Peter Kelloch (agent CAA Base) – strong interest from EPL clubs.

Note – if you think the above is false, go along to a B Team / u19/u17 game and ask the players parents. Michael /Angus / Scott / Stevie / Alastair will be only too happy to share their views.

As someone involved in football for 30+ years, I have never known a club to put their youth pathway into reverse so quickly. In the last month, I have had a coffee with Foxy, Joe Savage and Barry Hunter (Liverpool). All three can not believe how quickly Hearts have ripped up what others spent years growing and developing.

Hearts going to generate very little from the above departures. With exception of Wilson, others will be Development / training fee compensation. Barry aware of the numbers Hearts turned down in the summer for Wilson – we are talking Lennon Miller sums with a number starting with a 4. But he also noted that Hearts unlikely to get £1m now as boy not played. If true, this is crazy mis-management.

In Bloom we trust, but hard to see why First Team success could not have been achieved in conjunction with youth development, rather than at its expense.

There is no danger we turned down £4m for James Wilson 🤣

 

 

[LordLucan]

27 minutes ago, FIGJAM said:

Not going to be many young players left at the club. How Roger Arnott especially, and Frankie McEvoy must look at Hearts and wonder how can a club get it so wrong from a young player development perspective.

12 months ago they had the best player in Scotland at 2007, 2008 and 2010. Each player captaining their year group at National level, indeed one player was about to breakthrough to the first team. Given the money in football, one would have assumed Hearts would have managed the situation carefully. On top of the three players above, Hearts had 2 other players at 2010 level attracting interest as well as a few others getting deserved International recognition.

Fast forward 12 months and Hearts have literally self-destructed their youth model. The new Andy Webster and Shelley Kerr framework, aptly named the “Hearts Way”, looks to get 2 young players every year into the First Team (their my claim, not mine). While not official, no B Team next year means parents now talking matters into their own hands. As spoken about in other threads, Hearts going to lose the following players:

·         James Wilson (agent PLG)  - off on loan to Europe

·         Alfie Osborne (agent CAA Base) – deal to Newcastle nearing fruition

·         Alfie and Stanley Wilson – deals to EPL clubs progressing

·         Kier McMeekin (agent Wasserman) – informed Hearts he is moving, off to Man City or Man Utd

·         Boyd Fraser and Peter Kelloch (agent CAA Base) – strong interest from EPL clubs.

Note – if you think the above is false, go along to a B Team / u19/u17 game and ask the players parents. Michael /Angus / Scott / Stevie / Alastair will be only too happy to share their views.

As someone involved in football for 30+ years, I have never known a club to put their youth pathway into reverse so quickly. In the last month, I have had a coffee with Foxy, Joe Savage and Barry Hunter (Liverpool). All three can not believe how quickly Hearts have ripped up what others spent years growing and developing.

Hearts going to generate very little from the above departures. With exception of Wilson, others will be Development / training fee compensation. Barry aware of the numbers Hearts turned down in the summer for Wilson – we are talking Lennon Miller sums with a number starting with a 4. But he also noted that Hearts unlikely to get £1m now as boy not played. If true, this is crazy mis-management.

In Bloom we trust, but hard to see why First Team success could not have been achieved in conjunction with youth development, rather than at its expense.

Substantial amount of parents and kids getting disgruntled with some leaving or looking at other options.  Not a great look for the academy if all three Wilson's leave.  2 young players a year will never materialise.  Not because of lack of talent but of lack of opportunity.

[RustyRightPeg]

1 hour ago, FIGJAM said:

Not going to be many young players left at the club. How Roger Arnott especially, and Frankie McEvoy must look at Hearts and wonder how can a club get it so wrong from a young player development perspective.

12 months ago they had the best player in Scotland at 2007, 2008 and 2010. Each player captaining their year group at National level, indeed one player was about to breakthrough to the first team. Given the money in football, one would have assumed Hearts would have managed the situation carefully. On top of the three players above, Hearts had 2 other players at 2010 level attracting interest as well as a few others getting deserved International recognition.

Fast forward 12 months and Hearts have literally self-destructed their youth model. The new Andy Webster and Shelley Kerr framework, aptly named the “Hearts Way”, looks to get 2 young players every year into the First Team (their my claim, not mine). While not official, no B Team next year means parents now talking matters into their own hands. As spoken about in other threads, Hearts going to lose the following players:

·         James Wilson (agent PLG)  - off on loan to Europe

·         Alfie Osborne (agent CAA Base) – deal to Newcastle nearing fruition

·         Alfie and Stanley Wilson – deals to EPL clubs progressing

·         Kier McMeekin (agent Wasserman) – informed Hearts he is moving, off to Man City or Man Utd

·         Boyd Fraser and Peter Kelloch (agent CAA Base) – strong interest from EPL clubs.

Note – if you think the above is false, go along to a B Team / u19/u17 game and ask the players parents. Michael /Angus / Scott / Stevie / Alastair will be only too happy to share their views.

As someone involved in football for 30+ years, I have never known a club to put their youth pathway into reverse so quickly. In the last month, I have had a coffee with Foxy, Joe Savage and Barry Hunter (Liverpool). All three can not believe how quickly Hearts have ripped up what others spent years growing and developing.

Hearts going to generate very little from the above departures. With exception of Wilson, others will be Development / training fee compensation. Barry aware of the numbers Hearts turned down in the summer for Wilson – we are talking Lennon Miller sums with a number starting with a 4. But he also noted that Hearts unlikely to get £1m now as boy not played. If true, this is crazy mis-management.

In Bloom we trust, but hard to see why First Team success could not have been achieved in conjunction with youth development, rather than at its expense.

I can confirm and I’ve absolutely no issue in doing so that we didn’t turn down £4M for Wilson.
 

We didn’t even get a solid offer in for him. Not one. 
 

The club were actively trying to move him based on JTA advice and nobody even batted an eyelid. 

[Footballfirst]

1 hour ago, FIGJAM said:

Not going to be many young players left at the club. How Roger Arnott especially, and Frankie McEvoy must look at Hearts and wonder how can a club get it so wrong from a young player development perspective.

12 months ago they had the best player in Scotland at 2007, 2008 and 2010. Each player captaining their year group at National level, indeed one player was about to breakthrough to the first team. Given the money in football, one would have assumed Hearts would have managed the situation carefully. On top of the three players above, Hearts had 2 other players at 2010 level attracting interest as well as a few others getting deserved International recognition.

Fast forward 12 months and Hearts have literally self-destructed their youth model. The new Andy Webster and Shelley Kerr framework, aptly named the “Hearts Way”, looks to get 2 young players every year into the First Team (their my claim, not mine). While not official, no B Team next year means parents now talking matters into their own hands. As spoken about in other threads, Hearts going to lose the following players:

·         James Wilson (agent PLG)  - off on loan to Europe

·         Alfie Osborne (agent CAA Base) – deal to Newcastle nearing fruition

·         Alfie and Stanley Wilson – deals to EPL clubs progressing

·         Kier McMeekin (agent Wasserman) – informed Hearts he is moving, off to Man City or Man Utd

·         Boyd Fraser and Peter Kelloch (agent CAA Base) – strong interest from EPL clubs.

Note – if you think the above is false, go along to a B Team / u19/u17 game and ask the players parents. Michael /Angus / Scott / Stevie / Alastair will be only too happy to share their views.

As someone involved in football for 30+ years, I have never known a club to put their youth pathway into reverse so quickly. In the last month, I have had a coffee with Foxy, Joe Savage and Barry Hunter (Liverpool). All three can not believe how quickly Hearts have ripped up what others spent years growing and developing.

Hearts going to generate very little from the above departures. With exception of Wilson, others will be Development / training fee compensation. Barry aware of the numbers Hearts turned down in the summer for Wilson – we are talking Lennon Miller sums with a number starting with a 4. But he also noted that Hearts unlikely to get £1m now as boy not played. If true, this is crazy mis-management.

In Bloom we trust, but hard to see why First Team success could not have been achieved in conjunction with youth development, rather than at its expense.

I agree with the sentiment of the post and have heard similar murmurings about potential departures. 

 

The reality for the kids at the academy is that the quality and depth of the first team squad has improved markedly. The continued success of the JTA model with support from Bloom will mean that only the truly exceptional players will have a chance of making it at Hearts. The very good or good players may still have a future in the game, but not at Hearts.

 

However, Hearts haven't shown any signs of taking "exceptional" measures to keep the best talents at the club. Instead they have opted to retain multiple youngsters on the cheap, many of whom have no chance of making it at Hearts.  

 

You highlighted three players rated as the best in Scotland at their respective age groups. It's a sad indictment that McInnes can't find a place on the bench for at least one home grown youngster every matchday, regardless of the overall strength of the squad. 

 

Perhaps the SFA and SPFL should force clubs to have at least 2 or 3 U21 players, who are eligible for Scotland, in every matchday squad for domestic games. That would be a radical change of approach that would help the national squad, which was missing in last week's SFA report into youth football.

 

I have heard different numbers re JW, but also that he club already knows he could be the most valuable member of the squad if he got more minutes. He hasn't played at all since I was told that. 

[Malinga the Swinga]

Club going well with men's and womens first team winning at weekend so what do we get, two disgruntled posters with their Doomsday review of future. If youngsters not good enough or fancy a move down South, then that's how it is. I'm not for including someone who isn't there on merit.

As for their parents, maybe time for realism to hit home. Football's a cut throat business with zero room for sentimentality.

[redjambo]

9 hours ago, Buena Vista Baby said:

 You’re a cretinous, disgusting bully.

 

This place would be better without you.

 

Good luck finding Tynecastle within the next year.

 

Fraud.

 

He is not a bully!

[Morgan]

10 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

He is not a bully!

 

[redjambo]

2 minutes ago, Morgan said:

 

 

 

[Dennis Denuto]

33 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

Club going well with men's and womens first team winning at weekend so what do we get, two disgruntled posters with their Doomsday review of future. If youngsters not good enough or fancy a move down South, then that's how it is. I'm not for including someone who isn't there on merit.

As for their parents, maybe time for realism to hit home. Football's a cut throat business with zero room for sentimentality.

I think some of these people need a reality check and maybe see some accounts for how much we have spent on the the Academy and how much we have received in transfers for players that came through the academy.

 

The Academy is very expensive either vanity project or production line for all the lower league clubs in Scotland

[GinRummy]

1 hour ago, Dennis Denuto said:

I think some of these people need a reality check and maybe see some accounts for how much we have spent on the the Academy and how much we have received in transfers for players that came through the academy.

 

The Academy is very expensive either vanity project or production line for all the lower league clubs in Scotland

I don’t think you can measure everything  in money or dismiss it as a vanity project. We are a forward thinking community club and youth teams and the women’s team are a part of that. 

[Smithian]

10 hours ago, FIGJAM said:

Not going to be many young players left at the club. How Roger Arnott especially, and Frankie McEvoy must look at Hearts and wonder how can a club get it so wrong from a young player development perspective.

12 months ago they had the best player in Scotland at 2007, 2008 and 2010. Each player captaining their year group at National level, indeed one player was about to breakthrough to the first team. Given the money in football, one would have assumed Hearts would have managed the situation carefully. On top of the three players above, Hearts had 2 other players at 2010 level attracting interest as well as a few others getting deserved International recognition.

Fast forward 12 months and Hearts have literally self-destructed their youth model. The new Andy Webster and Shelley Kerr framework, aptly named the “Hearts Way”, looks to get 2 young players every year into the First Team (their my claim, not mine). While not official, no B Team next year means parents now talking matters into their own hands. As spoken about in other threads, Hearts going to lose the following players:

·         James Wilson (agent PLG)  - off on loan to Europe

·         Alfie Osborne (agent CAA Base) – deal to Newcastle nearing fruition

·         Alfie and Stanley Wilson – deals to EPL clubs progressing

·         Kier McMeekin (agent Wasserman) – informed Hearts he is moving, off to Man City or Man Utd

·         Boyd Fraser and Peter Kelloch (agent CAA Base) – strong interest from EPL clubs.

Note – if you think the above is false, go along to a B Team / u19/u17 game and ask the players parents. Michael /Angus / Scott / Stevie / Alastair will be only too happy to share their views.

As someone involved in football for 30+ years, I have never known a club to put their youth pathway into reverse so quickly. In the last month, I have had a coffee with Foxy, Joe Savage and Barry Hunter (Liverpool). All three can not believe how quickly Hearts have ripped up what others spent years growing and developing.

Hearts going to generate very little from the above departures. With exception of Wilson, others will be Development / training fee compensation. Barry aware of the numbers Hearts turned down in the summer for Wilson – we are talking Lennon Miller sums with a number starting with a 4. But he also noted that Hearts unlikely to get £1m now as boy not played. If true, this is crazy mis-management.

In Bloom we trust, but hard to see why First Team success could not have been achieved in conjunction with youth development, rather than at its expense.

I have no reason to doubt your info, only will say if accurate then that is an absolute disaster and there should be sackings next summer.

[Thumperbeni]

10 hours ago, RustyRightPeg said:

I can confirm and I’ve absolutely no issue in doing so that we didn’t turn down £4M for Wilson.
 

We didn’t even get a solid offer in for him. Not one. 
 

The club were actively trying to move him based on JTA advice and nobody even batted an eyelid. 

Said it from day dot, I didn’t get the big love in for him at all, the Scotland cap was a complete joke, he only got a game for us as we were short up top and had no one else to play there and that’s the harsh reality of it, he done well in a few games that was it for me, he is still young so plenty time for him to improve whether that’s at hearts or not is up for debate, defo needs to go out on loan because barring a major injury crisis he’s got next to chance of getting any game time this season with the options we have up top. 

[Tynecastle Valhalla]

There’s no way hearts turned down £4 million for James Wilson !

 

No way.

 

 

[spacerjoe]

11 hours ago, FIGJAM said:

Not going to be many young players left at the club. How Roger Arnott especially, and Frankie McEvoy must look at Hearts and wonder how can a club get it so wrong from a young player development perspective.

12 months ago they had the best player in Scotland at 2007, 2008 and 2010. Each player captaining their year group at National level, indeed one player was about to breakthrough to the first team. Given the money in football, one would have assumed Hearts would have managed the situation carefully. On top of the three players above, Hearts had 2 other players at 2010 level attracting interest as well as a few others getting deserved International recognition.

Fast forward 12 months and Hearts have literally self-destructed their youth model. The new Andy Webster and Shelley Kerr framework, aptly named the “Hearts Way”, looks to get 2 young players every year into the First Team (their my claim, not mine). While not official, no B Team next year means parents now talking matters into their own hands. As spoken about in other threads, Hearts going to lose the following players:

·         James Wilson (agent PLG)  - off on loan to Europe

·         Alfie Osborne (agent CAA Base) – deal to Newcastle nearing fruition

·         Alfie and Stanley Wilson – deals to EPL clubs progressing

·         Kier McMeekin (agent Wasserman) – informed Hearts he is moving, off to Man City or Man Utd

·         Boyd Fraser and Peter Kelloch (agent CAA Base) – strong interest from EPL clubs.

Note – if you think the above is false, go along to a B Team / u19/u17 game and ask the players parents. Michael /Angus / Scott / Stevie / Alastair will be only too happy to share their views.

As someone involved in football for 30+ years, I have never known a club to put their youth pathway into reverse so quickly. In the last month, I have had a coffee with Foxy, Joe Savage and Barry Hunter (Liverpool). All three can not believe how quickly Hearts have ripped up what others spent years growing and developing.

Hearts going to generate very little from the above departures. With exception of Wilson, others will be Development / training fee compensation. Barry aware of the numbers Hearts turned down in the summer for Wilson – we are talking Lennon Miller sums with a number starting with a 4. But he also noted that Hearts unlikely to get £1m now as boy not played. If true, this is crazy mis-management.

In Bloom we trust, but hard to see why First Team success could not have been achieved in conjunction with youth development, rather than at its expense.

Parents have every right to be annoyed at our coaching team when their kid is forced to leave us and sign for Man City.

 

[Jambo in Bathgate]

29 minutes ago, spacerjoe said:

Parents have every right to be annoyed at our coaching team when their kid is forced to leave us and sign for Man City.

 

JTA will change the balance of the academy over the coming years with more players both male and female coming from abroad on scholarships. Hearts are not here to provide U21 players for Scotland, we are here to challenge the duopoly. 

[boag1874]

10 hours ago, GinRummy said:

I don’t think you can measure everything  in money or dismiss it as a vanity project. We are a forward thinking community club and youth teams and the women’s team are a part of that. 

Yeah this. To me the Academy is an absolute necessity, it’s our big link to the community. Sadly the way things are in UK football means players will be going down south. More needs to be done at UEFA/FIFA or Government level to prevent clubs from being able to cherry pick academy players from other FAs & give the developing club next to nothing.

Edited yesterday at 05:43 by boag1874

[soonbe110]

17 hours ago, FIGJAM said:

Not going to be many young players left at the club. How Roger Arnott especially, and Frankie McEvoy must look at Hearts and wonder how can a club get it so wrong from a young player development perspective.

12 months ago they had the best player in Scotland at 2007, 2008 and 2010. Each player captaining their year group at National level, indeed one player was about to breakthrough to the first team. Given the money in football, one would have assumed Hearts would have managed the situation carefully. On top of the three players above, Hearts had 2 other players at 2010 level attracting interest as well as a few others getting deserved International recognition.

Fast forward 12 months and Hearts have literally self-destructed their youth model. The new Andy Webster and Shelley Kerr framework, aptly named the “Hearts Way”, looks to get 2 young players every year into the First Team (their my claim, not mine). While not official, no B Team next year means parents now talking matters into their own hands. As spoken about in other threads, Hearts going to lose the following players:

·         James Wilson (agent PLG)  - off on loan to Europe

·         Alfie Osborne (agent CAA Base) – deal to Newcastle nearing fruition

·         Alfie and Stanley Wilson – deals to EPL clubs progressing

·         Kier McMeekin (agent Wasserman) – informed Hearts he is moving, off to Man City or Man Utd

·         Boyd Fraser and Peter Kelloch (agent CAA Base) – strong interest from EPL clubs.

Note – if you think the above is false, go along to a B Team / u19/u17 game and ask the players parents. Michael /Angus / Scott / Stevie / Alastair will be only too happy to share their views.

As someone involved in football for 30+ years, I have never known a club to put their youth pathway into reverse so quickly. In the last month, I have had a coffee with Foxy, Joe Savage and Barry Hunter (Liverpool). All three can not believe how quickly Hearts have ripped up what others spent years growing and developing.

Hearts going to generate very little from the above departures. With exception of Wilson, others will be Development / training fee compensation. Barry aware of the numbers Hearts turned down in the summer for Wilson – we are talking Lennon Miller sums with a number starting with a 4. But he also noted that Hearts unlikely to get £1m now as boy not played. If true, this is crazy mis-management.

In Bloom we trust, but hard to see why First Team success could not have been achieved in conjunction with youth development, rather than at its expense.

On the other hand given the number of players you mention it could be said the academy staff are doing a great job of identifying and developing young men towards a career in football.  Which is really what it’s all about given that even in best case only one a year would likely make it at Hearts.    Two other major factors at play as well.  English clubs can offer kids and parents a financial deal that we can’t come close to.  Why would they knock it back?   Secondly the hurdle these kids face in making the breakthrough at Hearts just got 1-3 levels higher with the JTA involvement. We are now signing much higher quality players therefore the chance of making a breakthrough is becoming remote.  Wilson is perfect example, he was getting game time, got a cap(undeservedly imo) and seemed destined for stardom.  JTA has inserted Braga, Kabore and Kabangu ahead of him. Probably others to come in January and next summer as well.   McInnes is a good judge and he clearly doesn’t rate Wilson based on what he has seen since he came in. 

[johnking123]

It's going to be so much harder for youth to break through.  Really are going to have to very talented and very patient.  But its made even harder by top team in England offering them so much more. We push boat out for real gems. But even then I think its a losing battle.

[Hømme]

Has Wilson played enough minutes for a Jamestown score? 3000 required i think it was.

 

Or do we have other methods of rating our own players?

 

Or is someone talking shite?

Edited yesterday at 08:40 by Hømme

[Dennis Denuto]

14 hours ago, GinRummy said:

I don’t think you can measure everything  in money or dismiss it as a vanity project. We are a forward thinking community club and youth teams and the women’s team are a part of that. 

I think you can measure the success of the Academy on players minutes in the 1st team and on player sales. 

 

My point was not that I think we should not have youth system, it was about the posters above who seem to think it was previously a great system that had all the best youth players and somehow we have now ruined all of that.  Evidence would suggest it wasn't all that great.

[Valois No1]

Been attacked many times by posters on here where I have said he isn’t good enough and I don’t believe he will be in the future. Not shocked to hear  that he has been touted out by the club. I really hope he pushes on but file under Weir, H Cochrane etc

[Martin_T]

Tend to think the 'Brentford model', scrapping the academy and focusing on the first team etc is probably the way forward for most clubs outside the elite.  The amount of money Hearts have invested in to player development etc with very little return in either transfer income or even players capable of improving the first team squad is awful.

 

Note that Brentford have recently had to restart an academy of some sort to adhere to Premier League rules. 

 

Brentford news: Why Bees revamped academy - BBC Sport

[Dennis Denuto]

We should loan James Wilson out and see how he can do over a sustained period of games, plenty of clubs need strikers

[tartofmidlothian]

20 hours ago, FIGJAM said:

Not going to be many young players left at the club. How Roger Arnott especially, and Frankie McEvoy must look at Hearts and wonder how can a club get it so wrong from a young player development perspective.

12 months ago they had the best player in Scotland at 2007, 2008 and 2010. Each player captaining their year group at National level, indeed one player was about to breakthrough to the first team. Given the money in football, one would have assumed Hearts would have managed the situation carefully. On top of the three players above, Hearts had 2 other players at 2010 level attracting interest as well as a few others getting deserved International recognition.

Fast forward 12 months and Hearts have literally self-destructed their youth model. The new Andy Webster and Shelley Kerr framework, aptly named the “Hearts Way”, looks to get 2 young players every year into the First Team (their my claim, not mine). While not official, no B Team next year means parents now talking matters into their own hands. As spoken about in other threads, Hearts going to lose the following players:

·         James Wilson (agent PLG)  - off on loan to Europe

·         Alfie Osborne (agent CAA Base) – deal to Newcastle nearing fruition

·         Alfie and Stanley Wilson – deals to EPL clubs progressing

·         Kier McMeekin (agent Wasserman) – informed Hearts he is moving, off to Man City or Man Utd

·         Boyd Fraser and Peter Kelloch (agent CAA Base) – strong interest from EPL clubs.

Note – if you think the above is false, go along to a B Team / u19/u17 game and ask the players parents. Michael /Angus / Scott / Stevie / Alastair will be only too happy to share their views.

As someone involved in football for 30+ years, I have never known a club to put their youth pathway into reverse so quickly. In the last month, I have had a coffee with Foxy, Joe Savage and Barry Hunter (Liverpool). All three can not believe how quickly Hearts have ripped up what others spent years growing and developing.

Hearts going to generate very little from the above departures. With exception of Wilson, others will be Development / training fee compensation. Barry aware of the numbers Hearts turned down in the summer for Wilson – we are talking Lennon Miller sums with a number starting with a 4. But he also noted that Hearts unlikely to get £1m now as boy not played. If true, this is crazy mis-management.

In Bloom we trust, but hard to see why First Team success could not have been achieved in conjunction with youth development, rather than at its expense.

 

19 hours ago, Footballfirst said:

I agree with the sentiment of the post and have heard similar murmurings about potential departures. 

 

The reality for the kids at the academy is that the quality and depth of the first team squad has improved markedly. The continued success of the JTA model with support from Bloom will mean that only the truly exceptional players will have a chance of making it at Hearts. The very good or good players may still have a future in the game, but not at Hearts.

 

However, Hearts haven't shown any signs of taking "exceptional" measures to keep the best talents at the club. Instead they have opted to retain multiple youngsters on the cheap, many of whom have no chance of making it at Hearts.  

 

You highlighted three players rated as the best in Scotland at their respective age groups. It's a sad indictment that McInnes can't find a place on the bench for at least one home grown youngster every matchday, regardless of the overall strength of the squad. 

 

Perhaps the SFA and SPFL should force clubs to have at least 2 or 3 U21 players, who are eligible for Scotland, in every matchday squad for domestic games. That would be a radical change of approach that would help the national squad, which was missing in last week's SFA report into youth football.

 

I have heard different numbers re JW, but also that he club already knows he could be the most valuable member of the squad if he got more minutes. He hasn't played at all since I was told that. 

 

Thank you for these posts, very interesting. So have things stalled because the use of JTA is blocking routes into the first team, is that a deliberate decision that's been taken to focus on senior imports?

 

As far as the Academy is concerned, someone mentioned players from overseas, is there any element of JTA that's able to rate young prospects for us to bring in? I thought they had to be playing senior football to earn a rating.

 

I terms of bringing through two players a season, would it be considered a success if players weren't going into our team but we managed to sell two a year for decent six-figure sums, plus all the usual sell-ons?

[SomethingAboutObua]

For anyone unaware, FIGJAM is one of the biggest trolls on here relating to 'incoming crises'. McInnes was close to walking because he wasn't getting his own signings last month according to him 

 

Wouldn't believe a word he says, anyone that thinks Roger Arnott's work at Hearts holds any value is clearly at it 

Edited yesterday at 12:19 by SomethingAboutObua

[I P Knightley]

3 hours ago, Dennis Denuto said:

We should loan James Wilson out and see how he can do over a sustained period of games, plenty of clubs need strikers

I suspect that most clubs in the Championship would be more than willing to bring him in on a 'remainder of the season' loan in January and they'd give him plenty of game time, too. 

[Dennis Denuto]

27 minutes ago, I P Knightley said:

I suspect that most clubs in the Championship would be more than willing to bring him in on a 'remainder of the season' loan in January and they'd give him plenty of game time, too. 

It would be nice if we could get a prem club to take him and he can get plenty game time, make them better, but not against us - I would be fine with a a Championship club if that is the best we can do.

 

He will still need a good few more games to get his 3000 mons for a JT Rating

[I P Knightley]

47 minutes ago, Dennis Denuto said:

It would be nice if we could get a prem club to take him and he can get plenty game time, make them better, but not against us - I would be fine with a a Championship club if that is the best we can do.

 

He will still need a good few more games to get his 3000 mons for a JT Rating

3000 minutes is pretty much a full season. Are you sure that the analytics needs that long to build a picture? 

[Dennis Denuto]

3 minutes ago, I P Knightley said:

3000 minutes is pretty much a full season. Are you sure that the analytics needs that long to build a picture? 

That is what I have heard quoted so far

 

[Byyy The Light]

21 hours ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

Club going well with men's and womens first team winning at weekend so what do we get, two disgruntled posters with their Doomsday review of future. If youngsters not good enough or fancy a move down South, then that's how it is. I'm not for including someone who isn't there on merit.

As for their parents, maybe time for realism to hit home. Football's a cut throat business with zero room for sentimentality.

 

Good post.

 

They're not good enough. The end.  James Wilson played a load last season and we finished 7th. Fans would rather that than what we currently have going on? Do me a favour.

 

My experience of most football parents are blind arseholes when it comes to their own kids. Has always been the way.

[jamboinglasgow]

3 minutes ago, I P Knightley said:

3000 minutes is pretty much a full season. Are you sure that the analytics needs that long to build a picture? 

 

It was confirmed by McInnes recently, they need 3,000 minutes of senior football (though this doesn't include Lowland League) to build a clear rating. Wilson is on almost 2,000 minutes. So would need about 12 full games to get up to that.

[Angry Haggis]

Are young players more likely to progress their career development staying at Hearts or leaving? 

 

Are young players more likely to progress their financial development staying at Hearts or leaving? 

 

Talent withstanding- nothing is guaranteed, apart from your next contract. 

[Smithian]

6 hours ago, soonbe110 said:

On the other hand given the number of players you mention it could be said the academy staff are doing a great job of identifying and developing young men towards a career in football.  Which is really what it’s all about given that even in best case only one a year would likely make it at Hearts.    Two other major factors at play as well.  English clubs can offer kids and parents a financial deal that we can’t come close to.  Why would they knock it back?   Secondly the hurdle these kids face in making the breakthrough at Hearts just got 1-3 levels higher with the JTA involvement. We are now signing much higher quality players therefore the chance of making a breakthrough is becoming remote.  Wilson is perfect example, he was getting game time, got a cap(undeservedly imo) and seemed destined for stardom.  JTA has inserted Braga, Kabore and Kabangu ahead of him. Probably others to come in January and next summer as well.   McInnes is a good judge and he clearly doesn’t rate Wilson based on what he has seen since he came in. 

I think Hearts are in a big, wealthy city with loads of talent and the academy is very well resourced by any reasonable standard, not counting about 20 clubs in England and a few big continental sides. There's quibbles with current staff, but no denying there are plenty of experienced staff running the academy side past half decade.

 

I think Hearts have a problem a lot of clubs have. We have good talent at 16 and 17 who look to be good players someday. And I think Hearts want to hold onto them and develop them. The problem is they loan them out at 18 or 19, then look at them around 20 and think, “this guy isn’t ready,” lose patience, let him go, and a couple of years later he’s a quality player. It’s just hard to hold onto players that long, and it’s awkward to manage season-after-season loans. Look at Makenzie Kirk: he was simply too good for our reserves, didn’t really kick on at Hamilton, so they turned him loose (a decision I don’t think many of us could complain about), and now, after some seasoning at St. Johnstone, he’s just scored a goal at Portsmouth and, at only 21, has a quality career ahead of him.

 

Hearts have a number of players on our roster who couldn’t cut it at a big club, fell to a lower side, and worked their way back up to Hearts level. It’s not a unique problem to Tynecastle. I don’t know how to fix that if they think the B Team isn’t the right answer. U18/U19 to Hearts is too massive a jump, and I thought the B Team was a good way to buy an extra year or two for players to stay at Tynecastle and develop. But if the club disagrees, then I’ve missed the mark there.

 

The only realistic way I think Hearts (and the OF) could make B Team sides work is if the SFA decided to allow them to be fielded in League 1 or League 2, where they’d be taking on teams of clearer quality. I believe Naismith and Savage fancied that idea, but I get that it would be a massive change for the SFA, and I don’t begrudge one bit any supporter of any side with higher aspirations in L1/L2 who think the competitiveness of their league would be affected by it.

 

Otherwise, the best fix overall, in my opinion, is what we’re already doing: keep building first-team quality, keep improving finances, and keep moving the club toward a point where we can afford better wages and more opportunities to play in squad rotation due to extra matches in Europe. It doesn’t solve the reserve and academy problem, but it helps make the ultimate reward for academy talents at Hearts more competitive to what they see at a big English club.

[soonbe110]

6 minutes ago, Smithian said:

I think Hearts are in a big, wealthy city with loads of talent and the academy is very well resourced by any reasonable standard, not counting about 20 clubs in England and a few big continental sides. There's quibbles with current staff, but no denying there are plenty of experienced staff running the academy side past half decade.

 

I think Hearts have a problem a lot of clubs have. We have good talent at 16 and 17 who look to be good players someday. And I think Hearts want to hold onto them and develop them. The problem is they loan them out at 18 or 19, then look at them around 20 and think, “this guy isn’t ready,” lose patience, let him go, and a couple of years later he’s a quality player. It’s just hard to hold onto players that long, and it’s awkward to manage season-after-season loans. Look at Makenzie Kirk: he was simply too good for our reserves, didn’t really kick on at Hamilton, so they turned him loose (a decision I don’t think many of us could complain about), and now, after some seasoning at St. Johnstone, he’s just scored a goal at Portsmouth and, at only 21, has a quality career ahead of him.

 

Hearts have a number of players on our roster who couldn’t cut it at a big club, fell to a lower side, and worked their way back up to Hearts level. It’s not a unique problem to Tynecastle. I don’t know how to fix that if they think the B Team isn’t the right answer. U18/U19 to Hearts is too massive a jump, and I thought the B Team was a good way to buy an extra year or two for players to stay at Tynecastle and develop. But if the club disagrees, then I’ve missed the mark there.

 

The only realistic way I think Hearts (and the OF) could make B Team sides work is if the SFA decided to allow them to be fielded in League 1 or League 2, where they’d be taking on teams of clearer quality. I believe Naismith and Savage fancied that idea, but I get that it would be a massive change for the SFA, and I don’t begrudge one bit any supporter of any side with higher aspirations in L1/L2 who think the competitiveness of their league would be affected by it.

 

Otherwise, the best fix overall, in my opinion, is what we’re already doing: keep building first-team quality, keep improving finances, and keep moving the club toward a point where we can afford better wages and more opportunities to play in squad rotation due to extra matches in Europe. It doesn’t solve the reserve and academy problem, but it helps make the ultimate reward for academy talents at Hearts more competitive to what they see at a big English club.

Yes, good points.   Think the jury is still out on Makenzie Kirk tbh.  Still to really make the breakthrough. 
 

[Jambo92]

Not sure what we're meant to do, play a bunch of youngsters who aren't ready so that they get ready and then clear off at the first offer of more money? 

 

Wilson is 18, we've given him plenty exposure already, earned him a scotland cap.  Is he ready for a consistent run in the team, no, will he get a game if he's training well and shows improvements, yes.

 

Sounds like parents are desperate to coin in on their kids as soon as possible.

 

Another example is Lennon Miller, Udinese manager has said he's clearly not ready for first team football at that level.  I hope not but it could have a massive impact on his career by sitting in the reserves in Italy for the next few seasons.

[Footballfirst]

55 minutes ago, Jambo92 said:

Not sure what we're meant to do, play a bunch of youngsters who aren't ready so that they get ready and then clear off at the first offer of more money? 

 

Wilson is 18, we've given him plenty exposure already, earned him a scotland cap.  Is he ready for a consistent run in the team, no, will he get a game if he's training well and shows improvements, yes.

 

Sounds like parents are desperate to coin in on their kids as soon as possible.

 

Another example is Lennon Miller, Udinese manager has said he's clearly not ready for first team football at that level.  I hope not but it could have a massive impact on his career by sitting in the reserves in Italy for the next few seasons.

Three of the players being linked with leaving the club are still only 15, so its not a matter of throwing these lads in who are not ready. They aren't old enough to play in the SPFL, LL, or EOSFL. Yet it seems that decisions will being made to leave rather than stay at Hearts. Why is that? Is it purely financial or a perceived lack of opportunity.

 

JW was in a similar position when he was 15, but the club gave him some assurances about going straight into the B Team when he turned 16, pre season training with the first team in Spain and progression to the first team squad if all went well.  All of that happened, JW scored a few goals and earned himself a call up to the Scotland squad, so what has changed, that the latest crop seem minded to go elsewhere?  

 

Youth development has become more of a business of commodity trading for many clubs.  Scout or recruit a talented youngster, give them sufficient exposure to add value then sell them to the highest bidder. Clubs like Chelsea can afford to splash the cash on "potential", send most of them them out on loan to see how they develop, then sell them on at a profit.

 

JTA effectively operates the same model, only the players recruited are at a later stage on their career development.

 

There is every possibility the Braga and Kyzi could be sold on at the end of the season having increased their value by exposure gained at Hearts.   As a contrast the best kids in the academy may leave because they don't think they will get a chance to show what they can do.  To me, that's an opportunity lost. Others may disagree.

 

[Doc Rob]

It’s still too early to tell if Wilson will be the real deal or not. He needs to go out on loan. I’d prefer to a Premier side so he can play against better defenders.

[tiger Rudi]

What's more worrying is that we are 3rd bottom of the Lowland League. I'd imagine getting beat most weeks won't encourage youngsters to stay. Can't really fault them going to the EPL either. Amazing opportunity for them. We don't have a reserve league and can't give them a proper pathway that will prepare them for the 1st team.

Loans would be the best route, let them gain experience elsewhere, but they would need to be of a certain age. If we are losing 15 year olds I don't really see a solution. We can't compete financially.

[soonbe110]

38 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

Three of the players being linked with leaving the club are still only 15, so its not a matter of throwing these lads in who are not ready. They aren't old enough to play in the SPFL, LL, or EOSFL. Yet it seems that decisions will being made to leave rather than stay at Hearts. Why is that? Is it purely financial or a perceived lack of opportunity.

 

JW was in a similar position when he was 15, but the club gave him some assurances about going straight into the B Team when he turned 16, pre season training with the first team in Spain and progression to the first team squad if all went well.  All of that happened, JW scored a few goals and earned himself a call up to the Scotland squad, so what has changed, that the latest crop seem minded to go elsewhere?  

 

Youth development has become more of a business of commodity trading for many clubs.  Scout or recruit a talented youngster, give them sufficient exposure to add value then sell them to the highest bidder. Clubs like Chelsea can afford to splash the cash on "potential", send most of them them out on loan to see how they develop, then sell them on at a profit.

 

JTA effectively operates the same model, only the players recruited are at a later stage on their career development.

 

There is every possibility the Braga and Kyzi could be sold on at the end of the season having increased their value by exposure gained at Hearts.   As a contrast the best kids in the academy may leave because they don't think they will get a chance to show what they can do.  To me, that's an opportunity lost. Others may disagree.

 

It’s pretty clearly financial.   Grandfather of a pretty decent 14 year-old.  If he gets the chance to move to England in a years time on a contract that will give him a wonderful start to adult life it would be really difficult to say stay at Hearts, or any other Scottish club,  and take your chance.    That’s regardless of what the heart says.  

[soonbe110]

37 minutes ago, Doc Rob said:

It’s still too early to tell if Wilson will be the real deal or not. He needs to go out on loan. I’d prefer to a Premier side so he can play against better defenders.

He has probably had enough minutes that JTA will have a view on his potential.  

[soonbe110]

3 minutes ago, tiger Rudi said:

What's more worrying is that we are 3rd bottom of the Lowland League. I'd imagine getting beat most weeks won't encourage youngsters to stay. Can't really fault them going to the EPL either. Amazing opportunity for them. We don't have a reserve league and can't give them a proper pathway that will prepare them for the 1st team.

Loans would be the best route, let them gain experience elsewhere, but they would need to be of a certain age. If we are losing 15 year olds I don't really see a solution. We can't compete financially.

Our B team are out on loan to Championship, league 1 and 2 clubs so current position isn’t really relevant.    It’s just a development opportunity for boys playing against men every weekend.