The Doctor Posted January 27, 2008 Share Posted January 27, 2008 David Attenborough: When asked whether his observation of the natural world has given him faith in a creator, he generally responds with some version of this story: My response is that when Creationists talk about God creating every individual species as a separate act, they always instance hummingbirds, or orchids, sunflowers and beautiful things. But I tend to think instead of a parasitic worm that is boring through the eye of a boy sitting on the bank of a river in West Africa, [a worm] that's going to make him blind. And [i ask them], 'Are you telling me that the God you believe in, who you also say is an all-merciful God, who cares for each one of us individually, are you saying that God created this worm that can live in no other way than in an innocent child's eyeball? Because that doesn't seem to me to coincide with a God who's full of mercy. Firstly this hasn't been a creation vs evolution discussion, but if you want it to descend into one that's fine. I find them boring as hell, but there you go. I don't really know any reasonable Christians who believe in a literal 6 day creation. Most are perfectly willing to accept evolution, albeit that they would still recognise God as a creator, perhaps following and intelligent design model. So I accept evolution, I accept that the world is billions of years old. I also accept that the world is not as God intended it to be. The theological concept of the fall has tainted every aspect of the earth. There's not supposed to be murder, rape, war, famine, tsunami, earthquake or myriad other horrific things that adversely affect the human race, never mind a worm. The world is not the way that God designed it to be. So I don't believe God created a parasitic worm that causes children to go blind. (Incidentally I can't find any proof of this quote outside of anti creationist websites, I did find this about Loa Loa worms though http://www.allaboutworms.com/loa-loa-eye-worm) I believe it evolved and is yet another example of how God's perfect world has become sick and wrong. My (Christian) sister is going off to Sudan (where these worms are found) in March to volunteer to train local nurses. What are you doing? Hope that begins to answer you Neave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craigieboy Posted January 27, 2008 Author Share Posted January 27, 2008 Firstly this hasn't been a creation vs evolution discussion, but if you want it to descend into one that's fine. I find them boring as hell, but there you go. I don't really know any reasonable Christians who believe in a literal 6 day creation. Most are perfectly willing to accept evolution, albeit that they would still recognise God as a creator, perhaps following and intelligent design model. So I accept evolution, I accept that the world is billions of years old. I also accept that the world is not as God intended it to be. The theological concept of the fall has tainted every aspect of the earth. There's not supposed to be murder, rape, war, famine, tsunami, earthquake or myriad other horrific things that adversely affect the human race, never mind a worm. The world is not the way that God designed it to be. So I don't believe God created a parasitic worm that causes children to go blind. (Incidentally I can't find any proof of this quote outside of anti creationist websites, I did find this about Loa Loa worms though http://www.allaboutworms.com/loa-loa-eye-worm) I believe it evolved and is yet another example of how God's perfect world has become sick and wrong. My (Christian) sister is going off to Sudan (where these worms are found) in March to volunteer to train local nurses. What are you doing? Hope that begins to answer you Neave. Right, so if it is a lovely, pretty thing, it was created. If it is a nasty thing it evolved. Nice reasoning pal. A wee bit like the good things from god, bad things from the devil point of view. Very convienient I suppose. Yet a very black & white way to look at life, is it not? As an aside, I find it pointless to try to reason with religious people. And I have spoken with many people of different faiths. There is always an explanation or an excuse to wash over absolutre fact & well thought out argumentation. The above being another example. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigwull22 Posted January 27, 2008 Share Posted January 27, 2008 I think you could say that the most dangerous people on earth are deeply religious, or at least consider themselves to be, but to say that deeply religious people are the most dangerous on earth is a nonsense. Was Mother Theresa dangerous? Is the Archbishop of Canterbury dangerous? The Pope? Billy Graham? Nicky Gumbel? These gross generalisations are hurtful and insulting. If you made the same generalisation based on race or on physical ability you would be deemed prejudiced and you would be castigated. religion is the cause of almost ever war, I'm sure plenty of Popes have plenty to answer for including the present incumbant, Billy Graham right wing fascist Nicky Gumble wasn't he in The Simpsons, and none of these have their finger on the button Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Doctor Posted January 27, 2008 Share Posted January 27, 2008 Right, so if it is a lovely, pretty thing, it was created. If it is a nasty thing it evolved. Nice reasoning pal. A wee bit like the good things from god, bad things from the devil point of view. Very convienient I suppose. Yet a very black & white way to look at life, is it not? As an aside, I find it pointless to try to reason with religious people. And I have spoken with many people of different faiths. There is always an explanation or an excuse to wash over absolutre fact & well thought out argumentation. The above being another example. . I never said anything of the sort. Also I don't know this "good things from god, bad things from the devil point of view". But it would seem to make sense what with traditional Christian understanding being that God is good and the devil is bad. What did you expect? If Christians come up with an "explanation or an excuse" isn't that what debate is? What do you think is going to happen, you voice your opinion and the world nods in agreement? A bit naive no? If you find it pointless to try to reason with religious people why did you start a thread entitled religious people? Sheesh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Doctor Posted January 27, 2008 Share Posted January 27, 2008 religion is the cause of almost ever war, I'm sure plenty of Popes have plenty to answer for including the present incumbant, Billy Graham right wing fascist Nicky Gumble wasn't he in The Simpsons, and none of these have their finger on the button Billy Graham, right wing fascist? You've obviously never met the man, but are quite happy to be a slave to the perverted opinions of others. No, Nicky Gumble wasn't in The Simpsons, that was Barney Gumble, but you're very funny. And yes, I agree that many Popes have much to answer for, the Church of Rome has much to answer for today, but that doesn't make the current Pope (a deeply religious man) dangerous in himself, which was the original assertion. Anyway, I'm off to church now to pray for all you doomed pagans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craigieboy Posted January 27, 2008 Author Share Posted January 27, 2008 I never said anything of the sort. Also I don't know this "good things from god, bad things from the devil point of view". But it would seem to make sense what with traditional Christian understanding being that God is good and the devil is bad. What did you expect? If Christians come up with an "explanation or an excuse" isn't that what debate is? What do you think is going to happen, you voice your opinion and the world nods in agreement? A bit naive no? If you find it pointless to try to reason with religious people why did you start a thread entitled religious people? Sheesh! You said that you thoughht the worm evolved. And no, I don't expect everyone to accept my point of view. I am pointing out the fact that when valid points are put to religious people, the excuses or argumentation is weak, sometimes even silly. Also, I am willing to let other peoples opinions shape my own, especially when the argument is reasonable, logical & well thought out. My opinions/values now, are not the same as when I was 18. Religious people never seem to budge from the same old retoric. Ever. Wear that as a badge of honour if you like, but I think it is more a case of stubborness to admit your religious faith might be at the very least flawed, even wrong. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pablo Posted January 27, 2008 Share Posted January 27, 2008 Billy Graham, right wing fascist? You've obviously never met the man, but are quite happy to be a slave to the perverted opinions of others. No, Nicky Gumble wasn't in The Simpsons, that was Barney Gumble, but you're very funny. And yes, I agree that many Popes have much to answer for, the Church of Rome has much to answer for today, but that doesn't make the current Pope (a deeply religious man) dangerous in himself, which was the original assertion. Anyway, I'm off to church now to pray for all you doomed pagans. Fancy having a quick word about the semi On Wednesday while you're at it? Cheers mate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigwull22 Posted January 27, 2008 Share Posted January 27, 2008 Billy Graham, right wing fascist? You've obviously never met the man, but are quite happy to be a slave to the perverted opinions of others. No, Nicky Gumble wasn't in The Simpsons, that was Barney Gumble, but you're very funny. And yes, I agree that many Popes have much to answer for, the Church of Rome has much to answer for today, but that doesn't make the current Pope (a deeply religious man) dangerous in himself, which was the original assertion. Anyway, I'm off to church now to pray for all you doomed pagans. The current Pope was a member of the SS which to me does make him a very dangerous man, dont bother praying for me theres no one listening, but hey, each to their own Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stewart MacD Posted January 27, 2008 Share Posted January 27, 2008 All your problems solved with "Faith Converter"..http://www.macupdate.com/info.php/id/20246 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigC Posted January 27, 2008 Share Posted January 27, 2008 Going back to the original question. The ability for the human mind to believe in faith is genetic. How it is shaped from there is due to cultural upbringing. You can't have a thread like this without quoting Richard Dawkins, so I'll be the first. He has tried to see if there are Darwinian reasons for religion and why people believe in them and he has concluded that children have to have something built into then that tells them to respect authority. Any child who doesn't listen to their parents when they say "don't jump off a cliff" is going to die before they procreate so you can see how this built in instinct evolves. So as a result we are all genetically programmed to value the opinions of our parents and other authority figures such as teachers, more than people we don't know, and we are hostile to rival opinions until as adults we learn to think for ourselves. I think the other thing that makes us suseptable to blind faith is our survival instinct. Some of the less articulate apologists of religion trumpet the "there are no atheists in foxhole arguments" the - if I was about to throw you off a building you would say "God save me" therefore you are not really an atheist" point of view. It's a stupid argument but at the same time it does highlight one thing. Say for example you are dying of cancer. Firstly you would put your faith in the doctors, and you would also put faith in yourself and your ability to fight it. Once you kow it is terminal and it's only a matter of time before you kick the bucket, it's natural to start hoping for an afterlife, because you know you are not going to survive this life, but your brains survival instincts are kicking in - you can't believe your life is going to end, because you are genetically programmed to fight death. I think that is why we have faith, and we will never be free of religion unless we lose our fear of death - which would never happen because it is essential for our survival as a species. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigC Posted January 27, 2008 Share Posted January 27, 2008 Here is a list of all the arguments in favour of creationism and an atheist response. Very interesting reading. http://wiki.cotch.net/index.php/List_of_creationist_arguments Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westcliff Posted January 27, 2008 Share Posted January 27, 2008 The current pope was a member of the Hitlerjugend (nazi boy scouts that it was more or less compulsory to join), then he was conscripted into the Luftwaffe, where he served as an anti-aircraft gunner towards the end of the war. He had nothing to do with the SS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Bill Posted January 27, 2008 Share Posted January 27, 2008 I say "each to their own". And I liked the Dukes of Hazzard. Buffalo Bill . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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