Immigration

[The Mighty Thor]

1 minute ago, WorldChampions1902 said:

Reciprocal agreements seem to get overlooked whenever this angle gets raised.

Indeed. It's why I raised it. 

 

A lot of people don't know of the EHIC or think it was stopped after Farage and his ilk drove Brexit onto the gullible. 

[Ulysses]

1 hour ago, Lord Montpelier said:

 

For example, lets say 10m economic migrants arrive on these shores over the next 2 years following a similar profile of the last couple of years . Is that acceptable, or not ? 

 

Your point could be worth debating, genuinely worth debating.  But why do you have to make figures up to make the question seem more interesting than it is?  I mean, it looks dramatic and all that palaver, but making up numbers just kinda undermines what you're trying to say.

[il Duce McTarkin]

2 hours ago, Jacques de Gatineau said:

Yeah, but it's balanced out by the ones who don't have a jot of the language, churn out a dozen kids at least half of of whom have conditions related to the fact their mother and father are first cousins, and whose families all work in cash-in-hand jobs, contributing very little to the exchequer but taking plenty back in SEN and NHS provision, I guess.

 

These people don't exist, you racist pig.

 

1 hour ago, WorldChampions1902 said:

 

Thankfully, she decided on steering her own career direction and has been spectacularly successful.

 

Bet she had a spectacular work ethic too, so at least she took onboard part of their message.

[Ulysses]

7 minutes ago, Lord Montpelier said:

 

Its merely to make the point , i suspect we all have an upper limit.

 

 

I get what you're saying, but the made-up number creates its own problems.  It creates the impression that immigration is higher than it actually is - and if you think it's already very high you don't need to exaggerate that. And it actually undermines what you're trying to discuss because it creates the impression that (a) you don't really understand how much immigration there's been up to now or (b) you're not really interested in a reasonable discussion about what makes for a "good" or "bad" level of migration.  There's enough of substance to debate in immigration without the need for any of that getting in the way.

 

But leaving all of that aside, there isn't really a fixed answer, IMO.  Norm referred to what the economy can support.  I'd say it's a combination of what the economy needs and what it will support.  Migration, whether inwards or outwards, is a reflection of how people respond to the state of the economy and the labour market.  If the economy is doing badly and decent jobs and incomes are hard to find, people will tend to leave the economy and move to one that's doing better.  If the economy is booming and jobs are easy to find, people will move into the economy from elsewhere and employers will be only too happy to have them.

 

So before you can address what's a "good" or "bad" level of immigration, you first have to figure out what you want for the economy.  Right now the UK is at near full employment.  In fact, it can be argued that the UK is at "over-employment", where the economy and employment are growing faster than your working age population.  When that happens the only way your labour market can keep up is by bringing in new workers from somewhere else. 

 

You've had a post-Covid recovery in the economy, and at the exact same time you've stopped workers coming from the rest of Europe to work in your economy, while also at the same time the UK's own population is gradually ageing, so the number of working age people can't keep up and if anything is getting smaller.  In that scenario something has to give.  You either bring in more non-European workers, change your mind about the EU/EEA stuff and bring in more European workers, or else your economy stalls or contracts and UK capital has to exit the country to find productive investment opportunities elsewhere.  If the latter happens your own tax base starts to stagnate or decline, and in turn that means public services get worse and taxes creep up.

 

So before asking what the numbers should be, what's the right way for the British economy to develop/evolve over the next few years?

[Ulysses]

21 minutes ago, Lord Montpelier said:

Always remember when i was a student. Headingley, Leeds.

 

The place was taken over through the years by students. The locals initially saw the benefits but grew to resent it, for obvious reasons, noise, mess etc. 

 

Im fairly sure had their been a vote by locals to boot students out, that would have passed. Probably not many there now as the houses have passed into student rent. 

 

The problem we are talking about here and the debate is not dissimilar to that. 

 

Yep, I understand that.  My point is that the numbers of migrants (in either direction) don't happen in isolation.

 

It also suggests a way for Britain and other countries to deal with the problem of mass immigration by tacking a different problem - the problem of someone else's mass emigration.

[il Duce McTarkin]

21 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

So before asking what the numbers should be, what's the right way for the British economy to develop/evolve over the next few years?

 

Forced labour camps.

[Morgan]

4 hours ago, lou said:

Well, wee Chanel from Niddrie might well be your surgeon one day 😜

 

3 hours ago, Jacques de Gatineau said:

Yeah, but it's balanced out by the ones who don't have a jot of the language, churn out a dozen kids at least half of of whom have conditions related to the fact their mother and father are first cousins, and whose families all work in cash-in-hand jobs, contributing very little to the exchequer but taking plenty back in SEN and NHS provision, I guess.

Without going back and reading through the entire thread, I have ascertained that the content of these two quoted posts are somehow linked.

 

It’s probably the Niddrie bit and the first cousins bit that lead me that way.

[hughesie27]

1 hour ago, Gundermann said:

This.

 

 

A lot more hotels will close down?

[WorldChampions1902]

2 hours ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Indeed. It's why I raised it. 

 

A lot of people don't know of the EHIC or think it was stopped after Farage and his ilk drove Brexit onto the gullible. 

I know you did. I should have made that clear in my OP. 👍

[WorldChampions1902]

2 hours ago, il Duce McTarkin said:

Bet she had a spectacular work ethic too, so at least she took onboard part of their message.

Your work ethic point is something that is consistently pointed out regarding many of our immigrants. They work damn hard and strive for success, even though many come from very poor or humble backgrounds. Something I think you (and I) wish was more prevalent among certain parts of our own society. For a start, we wouldn’t need to fill many of the so-called ‘lesser jobs’ that some Brits are reluctant to take, which necessitates appointing immigrants.

[JudyJudyJudy]

8 minutes ago, Lord Montpelier said:

Another one on here who jumps to conclusions. 

 

No.. its an example of what happens when you bring two populations together who have different cultures, mindsets, beliefs, outlook on life. 

 

You get friction. Its what you are seeing in the UK today. 

Thats exactly what I understood from your original comment. 

[Korky]

2 hours ago, Gundermann said:

This.

 

 

Stop the boats and we’re depriving ourselves of thousands of future brain surgeons!

 

 

 

[JudyJudyJudy]

13 minutes ago, Lord Montpelier said:

Theres a couple on here determined to pick a fight when theres not one to be had. 

Just a couple ?

[Ulysses]

33 minutes ago, Lord Montpelier said:

Agree on your last 2 paragraphs 

Its the point im trying to make. There is a natural limit / ceiling here. Stating that should not be viewed as racist (although some will see it that way) and matching skills to labour shortages and setting the immigration approach around that feels a sensible way forward. But again some would view this, and your suggestion, as racist. I actually think this is what Reform minded people want and if Labour delivered Reform would evaporate quickly back to the fringes. 

 

I think, though, that whatever the limit or ceiling is depends on decisions you make about what kind and scale of economic development you want.  The more you want your economy to grow in volume terms, the bigger your limit has to be, or else you'll be short of workers.  So where do you strike the balance?  And is that a decision that should be made by society generally or just by business people?

[ƒιѕнρℓαρѕ]

4 hours ago, The Maroon Jacket said:

The job market will never be satisfied in the UK, there is more than enough unemployment to satisfy the vacancies of all types of work never mind importing more people to sit on their arses that are already here taking the piss on government hand-outs and like all these people working a 3 day week from home these days that is having massive downturn effect to the economy ,  society and working culture has  changed down to the big companies,there is has and will always be jobs nobody wants to do 

The British worker in general seems to get a bad reputation from news outlets in how they don't want certain jobs

it was the same 20 year's ago when the media went on about the Polish immigrant worker's that came to the UK were so much better than the Brits, as  there's good and bad worker's in every nationality , every country has problems with staffing but the system in the UK has bigger rewards and freebies than France for the unemployable slobs 

Westminster and Hollywood's fault!

 

 

What's the problem with working from home?

[Morgan]

4 hours ago, Gundermann said:

This.

 

 

Hey!

 

What is wrong with private jets?

 

 

[Morgan]

7 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

You have too many of them, Morgan. At least share them around.a bit.

You can always have the one you’ve used before, Red.

 

The yellow one.

 

Just ask. 👍

[JudyJudyJudy]

8 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

The floors are always sticky due to the champagne, cocaine and god knows what else though. The last time I flew in it, I fished out a pair of panties from the toilet roll holder! I'd prefer the maroon one to be honest - I'm even used now to the Robbo shrine that takes up most of the front end.

😂😂😂😂😂sounds a blast 

[The Maroon Jacket]

30 minutes ago, ƒιѕнρℓαρѕ said:

 

What's the problem with working from home?

They are socially detached in a working environment to begin with

isolated in a space which is also your living space with distractions at home, doorbell, deliveries interference from non-working matters,neighbourhood noise, loneliness, mental health issues and maybe feelings of being disconnected from fellow staff and company members , technical issues or instant response or reaction to relate, communicate instantly with problems or fast decision making 

Interaction on screen or on a phone is nothing like a normal face to face relationship with colleagues , customers etc , suppose you could go on and on as the negatives heavily out weigh the positives 

Suppose this is a major factor of how some company standard's have plummeted , surely working in a team side by side is more beneficial than the independent individual remote model

A sign of the time's just all a bit odd

[ƒιѕнρℓαρѕ]

8 minutes ago, The Maroon Jacket said:

They are socially detached in a working environment to begin with

isolated in a space which is also your living space with distractions at home, doorbell, deliveries interference from non-working matters,neighbourhood noise, loneliness, mental health issues and maybe feelings of being disconnected from fellow staff and company members , technical issues or instant response or reaction to relate, communicate instantly with problems or fast decision making 

Interaction on screen or on a phone is nothing like a normal face to face relationship with colleagues , customers etc , suppose you could go on and on as the negatives heavily out weigh the positives 

Suppose this is a major factor of how some company standard's have plummeted , surely working in a team side by side is more beneficial than the independent individual remote model

A sign of the time's just all a bit odd

 

I couldn't disagree more, if it gives people more time to enjoy their life, why shouldn't it be an option?

Sure, if it doesn't suit everyone then fair enough, but that should be their decision.

If you have evidence that it's bad for employers let's see links to the studies, because TBH I don't buy it. It honestly just seems that people hate the thought of others getting something good that's not available to them.

 

it really suited me when I had a young puppy, but of course it might not suit others. I say give people the option where possible.

Edited May 5, 2025 by ƒιѕнρℓαρѕ

[The Maroon Jacket]

1 minute ago, redjambo said:

 

But surely if the person is happy working from home and the company is happy with their productivity then there is no issue.

You don't go to work to be happy you go to work to work, what's best for the company and what's best for the customer 

What's best for one worker might be crap for another 

Oh but I can put a washing on or walk my puppy 😂 no wonder the country is Donald Ducked and society is in the bin 

[sadj]

55 minutes ago, Morgan said:

You can always have the one you’ve used before, Red.

 

The yellow one.

 

Just ask. 👍

That not your submarine? 

[ƒιѕнρℓαρѕ]

1 minute ago, The Maroon Jacket said:

You don't go to work to be happy you go to work to work, what's best for the company and what's best for the customer 

What's best for one worker might be crap for another 

Oh but I can put a washing on or walk my puppy 😂 no wonder the country is Donald Ducked and society is in the bin 

 

You scowled like **** when you typed that 😆

 

Booo, down with people getting more time to enjoy their lives!

[MoncurMacdonaldMercer]

29 minutes ago, The Maroon Jacket said:

You don't go to work to be happy you go to work to work, what's best for the company and what's best for the customer 

What's best for one worker might be crap for another 

Oh but I can put a washing on or walk my puppy 😂 no wonder the country is Donald Ducked and society is in the bin 

people posting on kickback all day and goodness knows where else then lying to their boss that the internet was down and they couldn’t get properly “logged on”

 

the dream scenario for shirkers and flannelers      
 

 

[ƒιѕнρℓαρѕ]

54 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

 

Working from home kicks ass, I was perfect with my job as I didn't want to lose it. Got promoted as it happens, (although they took it off me again when recovering from a tumour removal 😡)

[MoncurMacdonaldMercer]

37 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

Sods. A relative of mine has been able to be far closer to his dad who has a serious illness by working from home for the last few weeks and it has been a boon for him to be able to do so.

that’s definitely a good thing

 

good for the guy to continue to work - good for his work to retain a good employee / associate 

 

as you have said wfh has been going on for decades - a gap in the market was spotted that lots of ladies on maternity leave weren’t ready to come back Into full-time working but were happy to do a set number of hours from home - even in the dial-up internet days 🙉 tended to be those who had skills not easily replaced in the general market

 

It’s  the more recreational workers from home that people tend to have issues with

 

[Chairman of the Bored]

9 hours ago, il Duce McTarkin said:

 

you racist pig.

 

Hard to tell if that's a compliment or not from you.

[JudyJudyJudy]

6 hours ago, The Maroon Jacket said:

They are socially detached in a working environment to begin with

isolated in a space which is also your living space with distractions at home, doorbell, deliveries interference from non-working matters,neighbourhood noise, loneliness, mental health issues and maybe feelings of being disconnected from fellow staff and company members , technical issues or instant response or reaction to relate, communicate instantly with problems or fast decision making 

Interaction on screen or on a phone is nothing like a normal face to face relationship with colleagues , customers etc , suppose you could go on and on as the negatives heavily out weigh the positives 

Suppose this is a major factor of how some company standard's have plummeted , surely working in a team side by side is more beneficial than the independent individual remote model

A sign of the time's just all a bit odd

Excellent points about the downside of working from home . It should be up to the employers to decide if employees can work from home .

After all it’s them who pays the wages . They can assess whether it is more productive or not for the company , primarily . I hated it for many of the points you illustrated . It’s an isolating experience for some . I much prefer the buzz of the office and the human interactions .

 

Employers tend to prefer it too as they can keep their eyes on you and ensure your no slacking !a control I suppose .  😎 Like I  said def a few loved it so they could get a skiv. 

[The Maroon Jacket]

1 hour ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Excellent points about the downside of working from home . It should be up to the employers to decide if employees can work from home .

After all it’s them who pays the wages . They can assess whether it is more productive or not for the company , primarily . I hated it for many of the points you illustrated . It’s an isolating experience for some . I much prefer the buzz of the office and the human interactions .

 

Employers tend to prefer it too as they can keep their eyes on you and ensure your no slacking !a control I suppose .  😎 Like I  said def a few loved it so they could get a skiv. 

👍 No doubt there is some positives like not having to associate those that don't know what a bar of soap is or constantly pass wind 

[Konrad von Carstein]

15 hours ago, Lord Montpelier said:

Similar profile as in what they do when they get here, work as, dont work as etc etc - if your using fancy stats words I will as well - the qualitative view .

 

Nice and quick to try align me to Farage though, maybe the lesson for you here is to not jump so quickly to conclusions

 

Apology accepted. 

To be fair you have alluded to tacit support for Reform recently...and no I am not searching for examples

 

[Konrad von Carstein]

15 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

Not in most European countries, you wouldn't.  You'd pay what someone in those countries would pay.  In most cases that means you'd pay nothing, just as you would in the UK.

Can confirm, missus had a an accident discredited in a sepsis type infection in Italy, we were charged, months later, for the recovery period not the emergency period, got it paid by UK government via the health care card, actual name escapes me, in our case it was a deferred certificate.

 

 

Edited May 6, 2025 by Konrad von Carstein
EHIC card The Mighty Thor mentioned it 

[Konrad von Carstein]

9 hours ago, The Maroon Jacket said:

You don't go to work to be happy you go to work to work, what's best for the company and what's best for the customer 

What's best for one worker might be crap for another 

Oh but I can put a washing on or walk my puppy 😂 no wonder the country is Donald Ducked and society is in the bin 

Not normally one for this but... Wow!

 

In the office distractions are many and varied, go make a coffee chat shit with Bob from Projects for 20 minutes, Ange from Planning walks by your desk another 20 minutes talking about the weekend,  that's your washing on and pup walked.

Productivity at home is greater answer distractions. I'm thinking you are unable to do so in your role?

 

 

 

 

[Konrad von Carstein]

16 minutes ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

Can confirm, missus had a an accident discredited in a sepsis type infection in Italy, we were charged, months later, for the recovery period not the emergency period, got it paid by UK government via the health care card, actual name escapes me, in our case it was a deferred certificate.

 

 

Ended up being a sepsis...  Ffs!

[Ulysses]

18 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

I'll just sing to my cat here and see what he makes of it.  🎵

 

 

Fixed that for myself. 

 

 

[If carlsberg did rivals...]

21 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

Not in most European countries, you wouldn't.  You'd pay what someone in those countries would pay.  In most cases that means you'd pay nothing, just as you would in the UK.

My father was hospitalised in Spain several years ago, kept in for 3 nights, billed the thick end of €1000. Which he claimed back, well most of it through his travel insurance.

[Dennis Denuto]

There are several issues with Legal Immigration that need sorted out before we can get to the more complicated stuff like Refugees and Illegal Immigrants.  We don't have accurate records for people leaving the country, so we don't know who or how may people overstay their visas. Also there are those who get a Visa to come here to work or study but then decide to apply for Asylum before the Visa runs out.

 

So we need to record properly when people leave the UK and we need to make people apply for Asylum within say 7 days of arrival, maybe even less.  We need similar rules for those who arrive illegally, apply for asylum immediately or go through the system or you are automatically rejected. I think asylum and immigration can be great things for a country but you need to set tough rules and you need to back them up. Also while people are waiting to have their application heard they should be kept in special set up and fit for purpose accommodation, with a two week limit - if you are documented and verified then you get automatically accepted after this time limit, if you come on documented and can't get verified in that time you are automatically rejected.

 

Anyone else is therefor a criminal coming here to work in the criminal economy and should be detained as appropriate.

 

Just some thoughts I've had whilst reading this thread, how workable that is I don't know, but this idea of sending refugees back because they came from France is nonsense, France take refugees as well, these ones want to come here.

[davemclaren]

24 minutes ago, If carlsberg did rivals... said:

My father was hospitalised in Spain several years ago, kept in for 3 nights, billed the thick end of €1000. Which he claimed back, well most of it through his travel insurance.

When I was in Florence watching Hearts I was in Hospital for two nights.  Never cost me a thing. 🤷‍♂️

[If carlsberg did rivals...]

13 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

When I was in Florence watching Hearts I was in Hospital for two nights.  Never cost me a thing. 🤷‍♂️

Hearts will do that to you!

[Ked]

I watched one of those shorts.

Farage claiming 7.2 million foreigners registered with a GP since 2007 -2019.

 

https://fullfact.org/immigration/6-million-GP-registrations/

 

While his is top end it still means there's more pressure on Health care .

@Ulysses you posted about when enough was enough .

And you explained in economic terms what the balance between more people continued growth etc.

The UK imo if it goes down the route of "cheap labour who will do the shite jobs" or "we need doctors " isn't viable .

There's one or two reasons for me as how I see it and would have still seen it.

But there's a caveat that I think changes everything and that's A.I.

Anyway my reasoning without the A.I addition is this.

I've always been fundamentally against taking medical staff from regions of the world that need them most.

I do not like the idea that we import people to "clean our shit for peanuts" if we are being progressive as a country it's about fairer trade.

Straight away my utopian idea is ****ed.

However .

And I'm being blunt here and it will and probably is racist.

So to get back to Uly and his point about the economy.

The choice is the ever expansion and growth you need to fuel the fire and you need immigration for that.

To keep satisfying the profit ?

At what expense ?

So the blunt part.

I don't see much care or respect for the culture of the UK in recent years.

I'm expecting the usual Carling and chip shop shite.

We are/were becoming a more secular society.

We have a version of apartheid in this country that won't ever integrate fully.

And are 3rd generation.

Immigration is now argued by socialists for capitalists if we are asking economy versus (I'm stuck for an alternate ).

Ulysses was right it's a choice on what we all want and when is immigration detrimental beyond the economic never ending push .

 

 

[Ulysses]

40 minutes ago, If carlsberg did rivals... said:

My father was hospitalised in Spain several years ago, kept in for 3 nights, billed the thick end of €1000. Which he claimed back, well most of it through his travel insurance.

 

Did he have an EHIC?  If he did - and he would have been entitled to one if he's British - he'd have been charged nothing.  Some tourists get referred to private hospitals in Spain because the referring doctor assumes they want to use their travel insurance to pay for a "better service".

 

 

17 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

When I was in Florence watching Hearts I was in Hospital for two nights.  Never cost me a thing. 🤷‍♂️

 

I had an encounter with A&E in Faro a few years ago, at no cost.  Mme U had hospital and clinic treatment in Lisbon for an accident, also free.  Many years ago our then 5-year old had treatment from a GP and paediatric A&E in France.  That was free as well, although we did have to pay about €25 upfront and wait a month for it to be repaid.

[Ulysses]

4 minutes ago, Ked said:

 

 it's a choice on what we all want and when is immigration detrimental beyond the economic never ending push .

 

 

And it all depends on who benefits.  If only the wealthy gain from economic growth what use is that to ordinary people, whether there's immigration or not?

 

However, if you want to have no immigration at all then over the next 20-40 years the British economy has to get smaller, even with AI.  And if you don't have a young workforce in the future who is going to staff the health and social care services needed for an increasing number of old people and in particular people with significant healthcare needs, especially dementia?

[davemclaren]

21 minutes ago, If carlsberg did rivals... said:

Hearts will do that to you!

😀

[Ked]

34 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

And it all depends on who benefits.  If only the wealthy gain from economic growth what use is that to ordinary people, whether there's immigration or not?

 

However, if you want to have no immigration at all then over the next 20-40 years the British economy has to get smaller, even with AI.  And if you don't have a young workforce in the future who is going to staff the health and social care services needed for an increasing number of old people and in particular people with significant healthcare needs, especially dementia?

I typed out a long reply.

Thankfully I read it before I hit the button.

I just can't be bothered with the shit I'd get.

Anyway was a good layout from you on the economics.

[Ked]

14 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

I think I need to go and sit down.

I post from the heart mate

Before I die I might learn what ma heids for.

😳

[il Duce McTarkin]

9 minutes ago, Ked said:

I post from the heart mate

Before I die I might learn what ma heids for.

😳

 

Hope not.

[Ked]

48 minutes ago, il Duce McTarkin said:

 

Hope not.

Dinnae worry mate.

I doubt I will .

 

[Morgan]

13 minutes ago, Ked said:

Dinnae worry mate.

I doubt I will .

 

[Ked]

10 minutes ago, Morgan said:

What's wrong mate.

😂

[Morgan]

Just now, Ked said:

What's wrong mate.

😂

Oh, nothing, Ked.

 

You wouldn’t understand.  
 

I don’t think that I even understand.  

[Ked]

Just now, Morgan said:

Oh, nothing, Ked.

 

You wouldn’t understand.  
 

I don’t think that I even understand.  

Takes a wise man to ken he kens **** all mate.

I'm just about there but continue the odd post where I cling onto the far away hope I ken something about something.

Fwiw I try to be good.

😀