Neil Critchley

[EVHearts]

I think Critchley rates Wilson very highly.  I was watching the warm up shooting practice on Monday night and Wilson was tucking everything away, Shankland on the other hand couldn’t hit a barn door and just pissing about. 

[selkirkhmfc1874]

Just now, EVHearts said:

I think Critchley rates Wilson very highly.  I was watching the warm up shooting practice on Monday night and Wilson was tucking everything away, Shankland on the other hand couldn’t hit a barn door and just pissing about. 

Shanklands heart just isn't in it anymore 

[GinRummy]

12 minutes ago, Fozzyonthefence said:

Or no coincidence we had easily our best performance and result of the season when he came back into the team?  

Those kinds of performances from Shankland have been thin on the ground this season. Monday nights showing was way more typical from him. Of course I'd want Shankland playing at his best or even close to it but after 30'ish games from him which have been mostly poor I doubt we are getting that version.

[Lonewolflins]

3 minutes ago, Doc Rob said:

It’s legal to shoulder charge a player off the ball? To deliberately run straight into him, shoulder first, with the obvious intent of knocking him aside, and without any attempt to contest for the ball? You’re saying that ‘challenge’ wouldn’t have been given as a foul in England, Italy or Spain? Sorry, not buying any of that.

Shoulder to shoulder is legal , it’s a contact sport .

[Fozzyonthefence]

7 minutes ago, Doc Rob said:

It’s legal to shoulder charge a player off the ball? To deliberately run straight into him, shoulder first, with the obvious intent of knocking him aside, and without any attempt to contest for the ball? You’re saying that ‘challenge’ wouldn’t have been given as a foul in England, Italy or Spain? Sorry, not buying any of that.

It’s not a Scottish rule, it’s a football rule, don’t really care whether you buy it or not.  Why do you think Wilson didn’t complain or demand a free kick?  It was literally men against boys, or should I say man against boy.  I remember the exact same thing happening to my 14 year old son (in a 12 year old body) getting sent flying from a shoulder charge from a big 6ft centre back.  No complaints from him or any of us dads watching at the touchline.  
 

I don’t think an English ref would have given a foul, no.  Other countries, who knows, different refs interpret things differently even in the same country.  That’s certainly not a foul in my book though nor obviously whichever ex player was co commentating. 

[Doc Rob]

11 minutes ago, Lonewolflins said:

Shoulder to shoulder is legal , it’s a contact sport .

Oh, shoulder to shoulder is legal, when two players are competing for the ball and the one with more physical presence wins. That’s all fair and we see it in every game. That wasn’t remotely what happened in this case. As I’ve said two or three times now, there was absolutely no intent to play the ball or even contest for it. It was a foul, and in a serious league it would have been given as a foul.

[Fozzyonthefence]

11 minutes ago, Lonewolflins said:

Shoulder to shoulder is legal , it’s a contact sport .

Exactly.  Unless they’ve changed the rules.   Certainly less contact allowed these days but I think shoulder to shoulder is one physical challenge still allowed.

[Chimp]

26 minutes ago, RENE said:

The thing I like about Critchley is that at Press conferences I really want to listen to what he says.  He doesn't come out with the usual platitudes.  You can see he is actually thinking about what he says.  

 

Was going to post the exact same thing. Always well thought out and insightful. Speaks brilliantly and it's refreshing to see.

[Fozzyonthefence]

Just now, Doc Rob said:

Oh, shoulder to shoulder is legal, when two players are competing for the ball and the one with more physical presence wins. That’s all fair and we see it in every game. That wasn’t remotely what happened in this case. As I’ve said two or three times now, there was absolutely no intent to play the ball or even contest for it. It was a foul, and in a serious league it would have been given as a foul.

It’s exactly what it was, just so happens that one player was a streetwise man and the other was a skinny wee boy (and probably why Critchley isn’t keen to start Wilson unless he has to).  You don’t have to compete for the ball when it’s shoulder to shoulder.  And how can you anyway? 
 

You can say it as many times as you want but you’re wrong!

[jamboinglasgow]

14 minutes ago, Lonewolflins said:

Shoulder to shoulder is legal , it’s a contact sport .

 

See I have no problem with shoulder to shoulder if its two players pushing against each other trying to get the ball, but that was slamming into a player. Its one of a few things in football where I dont understand how it is allowed. Its like if a ball is heading touchline, a defender can physically hold back the attacker to let it go out when the ball is a few metres ahead of the defender. St Mirren did that on Monday. Again if the ball is at the defenders feet and he is holding off the attacker to shepherd it out then that is good for me, but with the ball rolling towards the end of the ptich, the defender instead runs away from the ball towards the attacker and backs into them, that should not be legal.

[Doc Rob]

4 minutes ago, Fozzyonthefence said:

It’s not a Scottish rule, it’s a football rule, don’t really care whether you buy it or not.  Why do you think Wilson didn’t complain or demand a free kick?  It was literally men against boys, or should I say man against boy.  I remember the exact same thing happening to my 14 year old son (in a 12 year old body) getting sent flying from a shoulder charge from a big 6ft centre back.  No complaints from him or any of us dads watching at the touchline.  
 

I don’t think an English ref would have given a foul, no.  Other countries, who knows, different refs interpret things differently even in the same country.  That’s certainly not a foul in my book though nor obviously whichever ex player was co commentating. 

It’s your personal interpretation of the situation I don’t buy. I’m not disagreeing with the rule book (which we both know will be worded in a very vague way in any case). I’m disagreeing with your opinion.

 

Wilson’s reaction (or lack of it) means nothing. That’s the sort of player he is. If that had been Taylor he’d have stayed down, and it would probably have been given. But believe what you want.

[JimmyCant]

5 minutes ago, Doc Rob said:

Oh, shoulder to shoulder is legal, when two players are competing for the ball and the one with more physical presence wins. That’s all fair and we see it in every game. That wasn’t remotely what happened in this case. As I’ve said two or three times now, there was absolutely no intent to play the ball or even contest for it. It was a foul, and in a serious league it would have been given as a foul.

Correct. Its a foul all day long for me. 

[JimmyCant]

1 minute ago, Fozzyonthefence said:

It’s exactly what it was, just so happens that one player was a streetwise man and the other was a skinny wee boy (and probably why Critchley isn’t keen to start Wilson unless he has to).  You don’t have to compete for the ball when it’s shoulder to shoulder.  And how can you anyway? 
 

You can say it as many times as you want but you’re wrong!

You have to be in playing distance of the ball, with the intention of competing to win the ball. Neither was the case in that event

[Jambo in Bathgate]

39 minutes ago, Doc Rob said:

It’s legal to shoulder charge a player off the ball? To deliberately run straight into him, shoulder first, with the obvious intent of knocking him aside, and without any attempt to contest for the ball? You’re saying that ‘challenge’ wouldn’t have been given as a foul in England, Italy or Spain? Sorry, not buying any of that.

Gogic should have seen red for Wilson foul (play on) he jumped at him leading with his forearm. (Yellow given )Also the guy who shoulder charged Wilson pushed him away with his hands. 

[Jambo in Bathgate]

1 hour ago, Doc Rob said:

The commentators were laughing about the first incident and saying that Wilson was ‘muscled off the ball’. That implies there was a fair contest for it and the other player was more powerful. What actually happened was that the Mirren player led with his shoulder into Wilson and barged him off the ball, sending him flying as you say. He didn’t compete for the ball at all. In any serious league, that’s a foul at the very least. But this is Scotland, and no foul was given. It’s Neolithic attitudes like this that hold the game back in Scotland.

 

Shoulder to Shoulder is allowed but not running at your opponent and hitting out of the way with your shoulder and hands. 

[Dazo]

32 minutes ago, JimmyCant said:

You have to be in playing distance of the ball, with the intention of competing to win the ball. Neither was the case in that event

They were both running for the ball though, so you punish the other guy for being stronger ? 
 

It wasn’t a foul, just a mismatch imo. Wilson didn’t bat an eyelid and look for a foul and not did his teammates. Guess the non professionals on here know better. 

[Takeshi kovac]

20 minutes ago, Jambo in Bathgate said:

Gogic should have seen red for Wilson foul (play on) he jumped at him leading with his forearm. (Yellow given )Also the guy who shoulder charged Wilson pushed him away with his hands. 

Wasn't a red card, Wilson won the ball and then they clashed heads.

Defo a shoulder charge on Wilson and I felt the ball was quite far off and should have been a free kick.

There was one in the first half on Penrice though where the defender used two hands to push him over and allow the ball to go out of play

[gwd1957]

5 minutes ago, Dazo said:

They were both running for the ball though, so you punish the other guy for being stronger ? 
 

It wasn’t a foul, just a mismatch imo. Wilson didn’t bat an eyelid and look for a foul and not did his teammates. Guess the non professionals on here know better. 

What has this to do with NC ?

[Dazo]

5 minutes ago, gwd1957 said:

What has this to do with NC ?

Probably the same as what it has to do with you. ****all. 👍

Edited February 12 by Dazo

[Fozzyonthefence]

41 minutes ago, JimmyCant said:

You have to be in playing distance of the ball, with the intention of competing to win the ball. Neither was the case in that event

Your interpretion or is that what the rule book says?  Even if it does state that I bet it doesn’t state how far that “playing distance” would have to be?They were both chasing the ball, can’t remember how close it was to them though.

[HopeDiouf]

can see both sides.  was shoulder to shoulder, but was edging towards excessive force.  overall I thought just about fair enough no foul given, and Wilson seemed to accept it ok.  Certainly wasn't asking for a foul.  Wouldn't have been overly surprised if ref had called a foul either, as the defender did use quite a bit of force, and was 50/50 if he was within playing distance of ball.  

[Wee Mikey]

1 hour ago, Jambo in Bathgate said:

Shoulder to Shoulder is allowed but not running at your opponent and hitting out of the way with your shoulder and hands. 

 

Apparently it is! The experts have spoken.

 

Critchley should remind our players of this and every time there's a ball in front of a The Rangers and a Hearts player heading towards our end, even in mid-field, our player need only barge into their player and knock him flying.

 

No foul ... aye, right.

[Shooter McGavin]

Last 8 - 6 wins, 2 draws. Starting to see some individual players really improve and grow in confidence too.

 

Wouldn't say we're firing on all cylinders just yet, but certainly feels like we're turning a corner.

[Morgan]

I don't know how anyone can even consider that it wasn't a foul.

[moonshine]

Looked right on the edge of excessive. Wilson non reaction (I like that he focuses almost entirely on the game) possibly influenced the ref. 

[King Of The Cat Cafe]

Here's what FIFA’s Law 12 says:

The act of charging is a challenge for space using physical contact within playing distance of the ball without using arms or elbows. It is an offence to charge an opponent:
• in a careless manner
• in a reckless manner
• using excessive force.

 

So, were the players within playing distance of the ball?

 

 

Edited February 12 by King Of The Cat Cafe

[Watt-Zeefuik]

As hard as it was seeing Wilson tossed aside I'm happier if shoulder barges like that aren't called. Wilson made zero claim, didn't even look about for a call. None of his teammates seemed fussed about it.

 

I think they were in playing distance of the ball. If either was alone they'd have had a decent shot of running the ball down. I didn't think it was excessive.

 

Just a full sized, strong fullback running into a wiry 17 year old.

[JimmyCant]

4 hours ago, Dazo said:

They were both running for the ball though, so you punish the other guy for being stronger ? 
 

It wasn’t a foul, just a mismatch imo. Wilson didn’t bat an eyelid and look for a foul and not did his teammates. Guess the non professionals on here know better. 

I’m not professing to know better. I’ve got an opinion that’s all

[JimmyCant]

4 hours ago, Fozzyonthefence said:

Your interpretion or is that what the rule book says?  Even if it does state that I bet it doesn’t state how far that “playing distance” would have to be?They were both chasing the ball, can’t remember how close it was to them though.

I don’t think either of them was reaching it 

[Jambo in Bathgate]

7 hours ago, Takeshi kovac said:

Wasn't a red card, Wilson won the ball and then they clashed heads.

Defo a shoulder charge on Wilson and I felt the ball was quite far off and should have been a free kick.

There was one in the first half on Penrice though where the defender used two hands to push him over and allow the ball to go out of play

Wasn’t a clash of heads I saw in the replay. Gogic lead with his forearm and caught Wilson on the head. There was intent there as far as I could see. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

6 hours ago, Morgan said:

I don't know how anyone can even consider that it wasn't a foul.

I know. He may as well booted him in the ghoulies too. In for a penny in for a pound. Shocking non decision 

[FerryJambo81]

I feel this thread needs bumped up, more polite than starting again

 

Rather than each story on its own merit, I'll just go the generic hearts standard link

 

https://www.heartsstandard.co.uk/

 

The training week article, I really enjoyed. Maybe it's cliche, probably been done. This concept of 'correction' day or 'identify' day resonates.

 

His first interview I could not listen to until the end, accent, tone, timidness just did not resonate. Always said (you can check) I'd give him time.

 

His recent interview about his assistant, name escaped me. We (well I) thought. He'd been forced to take a support team, that boy escaped me. Trusting his philosophy... yes, cliché, but genuinely believe its not 'lip service'

 

He has somehow become the most trustworthy manager since Paulo. Forget the caliber of manager (all opinion), just the concept of believing what he says.

 

Weird comparison. Recently watched Ted Lasso, funny programme although failed at the football part.  Anyway, the basic premis being the guy everyone thought would fail somehow wins people over. That seems to be what Neil is doing

 

There was a brief period with Robbie (championship), Craig too to be fair (before went really tits) where felt like like building a team. Locke done it with zero management nous...but how often have hearts felt like...well, a proper team? In my humble opinion, not often enough

 

Honestly feel the soft spoken, slightly boring (appearing) man might just build this unicorn we're all craving for....a proper Hearts team. We (I reckon) all have our version of that, I just reckon he might achieve that middle ground we all buy into. Fight, desire and a way of trying to play actual (dare say entertaining).football. Rare in recent times

 

Mistakes have been made but with every passing news conference and game, I'm really buying indy the guy...!

 

So there 😂

 

'Mon the Critch...bow to his propensity to stick with 'nicknames' 😂

 

Which, BTW.... why not? 

 

If that's what they're referred to in training ground, why would you give them their Sunday name? Makes no sense whether folks think sound daft or otherwise. We (I'd guess) all have different banter with different people. Why would he go against that?

 

Anyhow, rant over. Let's just take third and Scottish Cup...please 🇱🇻

 

I'll just add, when say 'proper teams', I mean more recent times. I'm 43 so have mixed bag throughout life. I really mean since that magical day in 2012 when saying how many times have we felt like a proper team? Normally times of adversity.

 

 

Edited February 22 by FerryJambo81

[FerryJambo81]

End got cut off, apologies for my war and peace. Just hope it makes sense tomorrow

[Cruyff]

I wasn't sure about him, I always liked him but he's really turned us around in results, performances and standards.

 

He's a right football guy. He's starting to develop a strong rapport with the fans. He's obviously become very passionate about the club. I don't want to get too carried away as we've had many false dawns but he really could be the guy that takes us up a notch. 

 

Has he got a song yet? 

[ƒιѕнρℓαρѕ]

On 12/02/2025 at 10:13, JimmyCant said:

You have to be in playing distance of the ball, with the intention of competing to win the ball. Neither was the case in that event

 

"a challenge for space using physical contact within playing distance of the ball and without using arms or elbows"

 

There's nothing about intention of competing to win the ball, you just have to be within playing distance 👍

 

Obviously, without excessive force, that's a foul in itself.

[ƒιѕнρℓαρѕ]

1 hour ago, Cruyff said:

I wasn't sure about him, I always liked him but he's really turned us around in results, performances and standards.

 

He's a right football guy. He's starting to develop a strong rapport with the fans. He's obviously become very passionate about the club. I don't want to get too carried away as we've had many false dawns but he really could be the guy that takes us up a notch. 

 

Has he got a song yet? 

 

It's no coincidence that he started to show once we were out of Europe and he actually got time on the training pitch with the players.

 

Good old Critchers

[Tenor]

5 hours ago, Cruyff said:

Has he got a song yet? 

 

A really easy one could be Thunderstuck by AC/DC

 

"CRITCHLEY! Ah-ah-ah, ah, ah-ah, ah-ah-ah

CRITCHLEY! Ah-ah-ah, ah, ah-ah, ah-ah-ah"

 

and repeat 😁

[jamboinglasgow]

6 hours ago, ｕｎｋｎｏｗｎｕｓｅｒ said:

 

It's no coincidence that he started to show once we were out of Europe and he actually got time on the training pitch with the players.

 

Good old Critchers

 

I said it for awhile, lack of training ground time was a nightmare for a new coach. Think he only had 3 mid weeks off from when took over till early January. When you can actually work properly with players you can develop them and we have seen that with the squad.

 

I think we wont see his full style until next season as the squad is built up and he gets a pre-season to work on the squad.

 

8 hours ago, Cruyff said:

I wasn't sure about him, I always liked him but he's really turned us around in results, performances and standards.

 

He's a right football guy. He's starting to develop a strong rapport with the fans. He's obviously become very passionate about the club. I don't want to get too carried away as we've had many false dawns but he really could be the guy that takes us up a notch. 

 

Has he got a song yet? 

 

When it was first reported that we were going to sign him, I remember thinking "really, him?" i dont think it helped it was a day or two after Hogmo was apparently about to sign then not. His first pre-conference won me over as i you could tell he knows a lot and has a clear plan.

 

I think Crithley is a very different manager than what fans generally want, in regards to he is not the big physical shouting manager of old. He was a more thoughtful manager, quieter but below the surface there is someone who has a deep understanding of football and players, who has a clear focus on how he wants to take Hearts forward. I do think it will turn out that he may not have been the manager Hearts fans wanted, but he may well be the manager Hearts need.

[Uncle Buck]

8 hours ago, Cruyff said:

I wasn't sure about him, I always liked him but he's really turned us around in results, performances and standards.

 

He's a right football guy. He's starting to develop a strong rapport with the fans. He's obviously become very passionate about the club. I don't want to get too carried away as we've had many false dawns but he really could be the guy that takes us up a notch. 

 

Has he got a song yet? 

He’s got the Wayne Foster song, which I’ve heard on many occasion. Rightfully so.

[OTT]

22 minutes ago, jamboinglasgow said:

 

I said it for awhile, lack of training ground time was a nightmare for a new coach. Think he only had 3 mid weeks off from when took over till early January. When you can actually work properly with players you can develop them and we have seen that with the squad.

 

I think we wont see his full style until next season as the squad is built up and he gets a pre-season to work on the squad.

 

 

When it was first reported that we were going to sign him, I remember thinking "really, him?" i dont think it helped it was a day or two after Hogmo was apparently about to sign then not. His first pre-conference won me over as i you could tell he knows a lot and has a clear plan.

 

I think Crithley is a very different manager than what fans generally want, in regards to he is not the big physical shouting manager of old. He was a more thoughtful manager, quieter but below the surface there is someone who has a deep understanding of football and players, who has a clear focus on how he wants to take Hearts forward. I do think it will turn out that he may not have been the manager Hearts fans wanted, but he may well be the manager Hearts need.

 

Agree with all of that. 

 

I was also quite underwhelmed by his appointment but he's very much the manager we've needed. The coaching standard has probably gone up 10x, and I'm not even exaggerating. 

 

Players seem to know they're role well, and are performing. We're seeing players like Devlin who previously looked pretty weak as a footballer, looking much more assured and confident - I'd say Devlin has become our midfield lynchpin. Absolutely essential. 

 

Looking forward to next season because I have confidence in Critchley to deliver. 

[jamboinglasgow]

14 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

Agree with all of that. 

 

I was also quite underwhelmed by his appointment but he's very much the manager we've needed. The coaching standard has probably gone up 10x, and I'm not even exaggerating. 

 

Players seem to know they're role well, and are performing. We're seeing players like Devlin who previously looked pretty weak as a footballer, looking much more assured and confident - I'd say Devlin has become our midfield lynchpin. Absolutely essential. 

 

Looking forward to next season because I have confidence in Critchley to deliver. 

 

I do think thats key, a player who knows what their role is and what they are to do, especially if it works with their strengths can make a big difference. I think modern coaches is more about understanding how to get the most out of players by understanding them and coaching them, when old school was more about being a more authoritative figure who expects things of their players (if that makes sense.)

 

This can come down to something as simple as how does each player take in information. I am sure I read talk that Naismith this season overloaded his players with information. That can work for managers who want to micromanage, but a player may only be able to take in so much info and leave them confused on a pitch what they want to do. Some players do love getting loads of information, but a manager is about getting the right amount to a player. Even trying to make complex orders simple. I get the sense that is the kind of coach/manager Critchley is.

[Baxfee]

4 hours ago, Tenor said:

 

A really easy one could be Thunderstuck by AC/DC

 

"CRITCHLEY! Ah-ah-ah, ah, ah-ah, ah-ah-ah

CRITCHLEY! Ah-ah-ah, ah, ah-ah, ah-ah-ah"

 

and repeat 😁

I like that!!! 

[ƒιѕнρℓαρѕ]

1 minute ago, Baxfee said:

I like that!!! 

 

Make it Critchers and I'm in

[feej]

3 hours ago, OTT said:

 

Agree with all of that. 

 

I was also quite underwhelmed by his appointment but he's very much the manager we've needed. The coaching standard has probably gone up 10x, and I'm not even exaggerating. 

 

Players seem to know they're role well, and are performing. We're seeing players like Devlin who previously looked pretty weak as a footballer, looking much more assured and confident - I'd say Devlin has become our midfield lynchpin. Absolutely essential. 

 

Looking forward to next season because I have confidence in Critchley to deliver. 

I wouldn't wholly disagree but we need to be better at the back.

Watched back the first og - such a poor poor goal to lose - no Rangers player putting any real pressure on the cross.

We're still susceptible to a ball over the top as well - NC needs to sort that pronto.

[OTT]

2 minutes ago, feej said:

I wouldn't wholly disagree but we need to be better at the back.

Watched back the first og - such a poor poor goal to lose - no Rangers player putting any real pressure on the cross.

We're still susceptible to a ball over the top as well - NC needs to sort that pronto.

 

Rome wasn't built in a day, I think I highlighted this, but in terms of central defenders this season, Gordon has played with Kent, Rowles, Halkett, Kingsley, Neilson, McCart & Now Steinwender. 

 

Whilst its not an excuse, I think that much change at the heart of defence isn't good and doesn't support effective communication - when I think back to some of our better central defenders, its usually a pair - Zal & Webster, Wilson & Ozturk, Berra & Souttar - there is a very established partnership and I think its a shame we lost Halks when we did because him & McCart were looking every bit as solid as the trio of pairings mentioned. 

 

Also, I think there is an element of individual error, should McCart have anticipated? Maybe. Should Gordon have held onto it? Also maybe. 

 

I do agree though, plenty of work. We'd be fools to think this is the finished article and there aren't major issues in the team still. 

[feej]

Just now, OTT said:

 

Rome wasn't built in a day, I think I highlighted this, but in terms of central defenders this season, Gordon has played with Kent, Rowles, Halkett, Kingsley, Neilson, McCart & Now Steinwender. 

 

Whilst its not an excuse, I think that much change at the heart of defence isn't good and doesn't support effective communication - when I think back to some of our better central defenders, its usually a pair - Zal & Webster, Wilson & Ozturk, Berra & Souttar - there is a very established partnership and I think its a shame we lost Halks when we did because him & McCart were looking every bit as solid as the trio of pairings mentioned. 

 

Also, I think there is an element of individual error, should McCart have anticipated? Maybe. Should Gordon have held onto it? Also maybe. 

 

I do agree though, plenty of work. We'd be fools to think this is the finished article and there aren't major issues in the team still. 

Agreed mate, our centre defence has ben hit hard and the current pair are new to each other. NC is still being hampered by some of Naismiths signings, having to throw players in because of injury etc -  things that get me at the moment is that we have some poor players with a lack of football intelligence leading to poor game management.

Wilson is a player, Forrester and Musa aren't.

As we all know summer will be big, some of these guys that are in and around the 1st team squad at the moment will be moved on and better players come in.

 

I've been happy with McCart and Steinwender looks as though he'll be a good signing however I think we can and will upgrade on McCart.

 

Hopefully we get some early movement in and out so NC gets the time on the training pitch he needs.

 

Hate being down the bottom, it's so tight we need to start to get wins and put a wee run together-upcoming games are winnable.

 

[jr ewing]

Doing a grand job. ✨️ 

[Absolute Scenes]

We’ve got 99 problems but the Critch ain’t one

[ScottieMac17]

I just hope that the club don't soil the sheets if we don't make the top six and get rid of him

[Gavman81]

I’m still on the fence TBH.

 

Appreciate his league table is good and he has done well but some selections, subs, decisions and performances are still concerning me a little at times.

 

Be interesting to revisit this in a week as could be make or break for top 6/push for Europe or a dogfight still to avoid 11th - fingers crossed it’s the later.