Modern Football

[Skacelsid]

Hate the short passing from goalie to defenders that all teams are copying. I understand what the purpose is but on its own it is a waste of time. If you cannot then break quickly and exploit the position the tactic is ineffective, that is where we are. This game requires players with the ability (and speed) and coaches that understand it. We are just inviting pressure from any level of opponent. We should just concentrate on getting players fit so we can press others into mistakes, play a quicker more direct game and get the best out of our players. Fitness will not come with walking football.

[Tommy Brown]

2 hours ago, Bull's-eye said:

 

Yes, 1 team that can win the league, 1 team capable of 2nd. Referee's that support 1 or the other above, A league format with a ludicrous unfair split designed purposely to keep the the above 2 at the top of the pile for evermore.

 

Id welcome some skulduggery tbh.

[Jacques de Gatineau]

4 hours ago, Ribble said:

 

Odds doesn't factor in it.

 

The factors are distance from goal, the angle, whether it's a header or not, how many defenders between ball and goal, position of the keeper, type of pass leading to the chance and whether or not the shot was inside the 6 yard box. also Penalties are automatically given 0.76 xG as 76 percent of pens are scored.

 

For the spurs game we had 3 on target, 6 off and a total xG of 1.25 

Wow, thanks for sharing.

 

Whoever made up that shite clearly wasn't into football the way most of us are.

[Locky]

The thing that makes modern football 'worse', at elite level anyway, is the games lost a lot of its moments. And that's a knock on affect from everyone wanting to copy the Pep Guardiola guide to coaching.

 

Teams like City rely on the team performing as a unit. Everyone has their roles but they have to stick to them in order to make the team stronger. Nobody in the modern game really stands out with their individuality and even if they did, their individuality wouldn't be nourished.

 

As a result, you just don't get those moments in football that make games exciting. I can't remember the last time I sat in awe of something someone did in a game I watched as a neutral. 

[ArcticJambo]

11 hours ago, Ribble said:

 

We won't ever see anything in football get close to December 2006's Goal of the month competition

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhYLwinj-kI

 

 

I tell ye, it was the ball Nike produced over that period, the Nike Total 90 Aerow I & II, between the 2004/05 and 2007/08 seasons.  It must have been a joy to muck around with, and no doubt they were jizzing over it in training sessions up and down the country.  And proving it on match days.  THe 2007/08 goals are ridiculous! 

 

https://www.soccerbible.com/performance/football-equipment/2023/06/looking-back-at-every-nike-premier-league-ball/

 

Take a look at these ....

 

 

 

 

[darrenold]

Too many things to get angry or roll eyes about.

 

.var (obviously whole thing is shite)

. Flag for offside not going up till it's in the net 

. Goal kicks slow played.

. Hand ball and the penguin dance the defenders do to try and avoid it.

. Too many subs allowed 

. Too many straight reds for tackles that would have not been reds not that long  ago.

. Not enough dribbling or beating players

 

[Star Lizard]

3 hours ago, Locky said:

The thing that makes modern football 'worse', at elite level anyway, is the games lost a lot of its moments. And that's a knock on affect from everyone wanting to copy the Pep Guardiola guide to coaching.

 

Teams like City rely on the team performing as a unit. Everyone has their roles but they have to stick to them in order to make the team stronger. Nobody in the modern game really stands out with their individuality and even if they did, their individuality wouldn't be nourished.

 

As a result, you just don't get those moments in football that make games exciting. I can't remember the last time I sat in awe of something someone did in a game I watched as a neutral. 

Definitely . Zidanes volleyed goal or Bergkamp chipping a defender rounding him and then taking the ball down like it was on a string before firing it home

 

Nope ……. Pass pass pass pass pass pass goal 

 

Its something I don’t get about people who hate wide players cutting in instead of hugging the touchline and getting a cross in 

 

Give me a Suso or a Temps over that sort of thing every day of the week 

Edited September 12, 2024 by Sooks

[Go for it 1308]

Modern football is shit, basically 

[Fort Vallance]

Some of the stuff we watch now is magical. Some of it is mind numbing. 

Some of the stuff we watched in the 70's was mind numbing.  Some of it was magical. 

It's the best game in the world and it evolves. Why not just enjoy it.

[darrenold]

31 minutes ago, Fort Vallance said:

Some of the stuff we watch now is magical. Some of it is mind numbing. 

Some of the stuff we watched in the 70's was mind numbing.  Some of it was magical. 

It's the best game in the world and it evolves. Why not just enjoy it.

Var isn't eveloution 

[Star Lizard]

8 hours ago, darrenold said:

Var isn't eveloution 

No but it is evolution 

[jambo19]

The latest Euros was the worst tournament in a long time and it's carried on for me watching Hearts.

 

"Play from the back" = players not skilled to do so playing their way into bother

 

"Play through the thirds and recycle" = our centre backs playing sideways passes or into CM who pass it backwards 

 

Naismith is guilty for saying he'll grind teams down then go for it. Worst of all was the Plzen game. We needed 2 goals and still had 0 shots on target after an hour...

 

Modern coaches signing players of stats and watching games on an iPad at the dugout is boring.

 

The Fergie vs Wenger era was more entertaining with wingers willing to attack and beat men 1v1 with 2 strikers up top

[EH11 2NL]

Don't actually mind the goalie playing it short, we very rarely concede a goal from that and it opens the play up further up the park. Better than watching someone shell it, and let them fight for a header and second ball, or worse the keeper sent it straight out. 

 

What does really frustrate me, is the keep the possession attitude in the first 3rd. It seems if there's not an easy ball forward, we play it back and recycle. Time and time again, instead of playing the risking difficult pass. Those wee passes into the box can really lighten the game up, even if it doesn't lead to a goal. Must be brutal for a striker, especially someone like Tagawa that quite obviously wanted through balls to run onto. 

[Martin_T]

17 minutes ago, jambo19 said:

The latest Euros was the worst tournament in a long time and it's carried on for me watching Hearts.

 

"Play from the back" = players not skilled to do so playing their way into bother

 

"Play through the thirds and recycle" = our centre backs playing sideways passes or into CM who pass it backwards 

 

Naismith is guilty for saying he'll grind teams down then go for it. Worst of all was the Plzen game. We needed 2 goals and still had 0 shots on target after an hour...

 

Modern coaches signing players of stats and watching games on an iPad at the dugout is boring.

 

The Fergie vs Wenger era was more entertaining with wingers willing to attack and beat men 1v1 with 2 strikers up top

 

I'm conscious this is all coming across a bit like old men (I'm 42) moaning about how things used to be etc.

 

The transfer market now seems to be skewed more towards paying big fees for potential rather than established stars, who are more likely to move after their contracts expire.

[Shooter McGavin]

2 hours ago, jambo19 said:

The latest Euros was the worst tournament in a long time and it's carried on for me watching Hearts.

Started off brilliantly too, but died on it's arse after the 2nd round of fixtures.

 

I was bored to tears towards the end, the thought of England failing the only thing keeping me interested.

[pettigrewsstylist]

On 12/09/2024 at 07:18, Rudy T said:

Was hearing the latest stats produced on how much the game has changed even in the last 5 years. The Pep effect!

Some key things for me where:

One Striker, gone are the days of having two, especially the big man wee man combo.
Considerably less shots from outside the box and as a consequence far less goals.

Less crosses into the box.

Huge increase in the number of passes in a game.

 

Makes me wonder if a coach was to revert back to some of these seemingly outdated ideas if they’d have success with it, seems to be its very much football by numbers with any real flair coached out of the players now.

 

I’m yet to be convinced it’s better to watch for the fans.

Elite level quality player reqd.

Reminds me of kids in the 80s painting a 3rd stripe onto their woolworths trainers and pretending they were adidas kicks.

 

[jambo19]

3 hours ago, Martin_T said:

 

I'm conscious this is all coming across a bit like old men (I'm 42) moaning about how things used to be etc.

 

The transfer market now seems to be skewed more towards paying big fees for potential rather than established stars, who are more likely to move after their contracts expire.

That may be the case but I think especially in Elite level sport or football, it's tilted more to the business side than about the football.

 

Managers have around a year. They'll play safe and conservative focusing on keeping the ball or parking the bus. They won't take chances on youngsters mainly and will throw money at speculative punts hoping for a sell on return from that investment.

 

From coaching youths I've seen even the difference in how coaches are educated from the SFA to replicate the playing through the thirds passing style but the quality isn't there to actually implement it. That leads to safe passing backwards or sideways not risky penetrative passing going forwards 

[Ex member of the SaS]

Not had time to read full thread but for me this insistence on players wearing trackers and consulting Ipads has sucked the interest out of the game. Who cares who many yards a player runs as long as he's in the right place at the right time or making the right pass.

Stated before on another thread , having watched the highlights of the EFL you see " proper" football with players shooting on sight. Many, many goals scored from distance, while we try to walk the ball over the line.

Time to dump the tech and get back to playing the game. Possession football is all well and good if you have the players who can break and score goals on the counter attack. We along with most teams we don't have that skill set.

Get a manager that doesn't rely on a committee to see what's required and get players playing in the correct positions and get a settled team who know what another player will do, make a run or fall back as cover.

[darrenold]

5 hours ago, Sooks said:

No but it is evolution 

It's neither evolution or a revolution.

 

It's shit 

[Hans Eskilsson]

14 hours ago, Fort Vallance said:

Some of the stuff we watch now is magical. Some of it is mind numbing. 

Some of the stuff we watched in the 70's was mind numbing.  Some of it was magical. 

It's the best game in the world and it evolves. Why not just enjoy it.

It’s evolved into something that isn’t as enjoyable. 

[Hans Eskilsson]

5 hours ago, Sooks said:

No but it is evolution 

Worst kind of post. Imagine picking folk up for their spelling on a football forum. 

[Star Lizard]

2 minutes ago, RedStarRiot said:

Worst kind of post. Imagine picking folk up for their spelling on a football forum. 

I actually thought the irony would have been obvious ? My grammar and some spelling is atrocious  

[darrenold]

What about the players all lining up and shaking hands before a game .

 

Did they not used to just run on and jog about in their half?

[TexasAndy]

23 hours ago, Luckies1874 said:

 

Has to be one of the craziest and most ridiculous ever takes on JKB.

 

I've literally read it all now. The Barcelona team under Pep, arguably the greatest club side in history, weren't exciting. Jesus wept. Each to their own but your point is clearly nonsense. 

 

 

 

 

It's all about opinions.  I am sure there are many like who didn't enjoy watching them.

[Hans Eskilsson]

2 hours ago, Sooks said:

I actually thought the irony would have been obvious ? My grammar and some spelling is atrocious  

Went over my head tbh. 

[Luckies1874]

1 hour ago, TexasAndy said:

It's all about opinions.  I am sure there are many like who didn't enjoy watching them.

That’s not an opinion that is valid. It’s a preference. It is categorically wrong in any football sense to suggest Guardiola’s Barcelona team weren’t “exciting”. And there are certainly not many people who would agree with that. 

[Jacques de Gatineau]

5 hours ago, pettigrewsstylist said:

Elite level quality player reqd.

Reminds me of kids in the 80s painting a 3rd stripe onto their woolworths trainers and pretending they were adidas kicks.

 

Brilliant analogy!

 

Feels like we've turned up this season with a pair of Gola that has half the sole flopping about and a burst lace.

[RustyRightPeg]

The death of the box to box midfielder. 

[ArcticJambo]

4 hours ago, jambo19 said:

That may be the case but I think especially in Elite level sport or football, it's tilted more to the business side than about the football.

 

Managers have around a year. They'll play safe and conservative focusing on keeping the ball or parking the bus. They won't take chances on youngsters mainly and will throw money at speculative punts hoping for a sell on return from that investment.

 

From coaching youths I've seen even the difference in how coaches are educated from the SFA to replicate the playing through the thirds passing style but the quality isn't there to actually implement it. That leads to safe passing backwards or sideways not risky penetrative passing going forwards 

 

 

And then what typically happens is that the defenders moan at the forward that has attempted something 'brave' and it hasn't worked ('He'll just give it away!'), and they lose confidence. Then it's back to all the safe horizontal passing from everybody.

[darrenold]

Ticket prices are too high for what we are getting.  

 

It's fine for a season ticket when the price per game works out fine, but anything over £20 for a match that isn't a semi or final (or league decider perhaps) is criminal.

 

Would much rather watch a Scottish league one match played with passion (and no **** var) than a prem chess match with no action.

 

 

[pettigrewsstylist]

5 hours ago, Ex member of the SaS said:

Not had time to read full thread but for me this insistence on players wearing trackers and consulting Ipads has sucked the interest out of the game. Who cares who many yards a player runs as long as he's in the right place at the right time or making the right pass.

Stated before on another thread , having watched the highlights of the EFL you see " proper" football with players shooting on sight. Many, many goals scored from distance, while we try to walk the ball over the line.

Time to dump the tech and get back to playing the game. Possession football is all well and good if you have the players who can break and score goals on the counter attack. We along with most teams we don't have that skill set.

Get a manager that doesn't rely on a committee to see what's required and get players playing in the correct positions and get a settled team who know what another player will do, make a run or fall back as cover.

The style at the Euros v Clarkes death march fitbaw was humiliating. We didnt belong at that tourney.

Georgia FFS.

[pettigrewsstylist]

4 hours ago, darrenold said:

What about the players all lining up and shaking hands before a game .

 

Did they not used to just run on and jog about in their half?

Yip. Practising flying heedbutts and knees to the face. 

[Star Lizard]

2 hours ago, darrenold said:

Ticket prices are too high for what we are getting.  

 

It's fine for a season ticket when the price per game works out fine, but anything over £20 for a match that isn't a semi or final (or league decider perhaps) is criminal.

 

Would much rather watch a Scottish league one match played with passion (and no **** var) than a prem chess match with no action.

 

 

SPFL ticket prices are so high because we have a completely useless CEO who is incapable of getting us a decent TV deal or sponsorship . If we dropped the prices without those in place the quality on the pitch would drop even further 

[Tommy Brown]

On 12/09/2024 at 22:12, Fort Vallance said:

Some of the stuff we watch now is magical. Some of it is mind numbing. 

Some of the stuff we watched in the 70's was mind numbing.  Some of it was magical. 

It's the best game in the world and it evolves. Why not just enjoy it.

This

Biggest thing now is the pace and athletism of players.

[kingantti1874]

Some good points.  IMO I don’t really think football now is magical or even better in any way. 
 

Where is the flair and the individuality. Where are the forwards? Where are the Ronaldinho’s, the Rivaldo’s the Batistuta’s , the Adriano’s, the Shearer’s, the Owen’s, The Gullit, Overmars, Anelka’s, the Rooney, the Recoba the Ian Wights?The Laudrup, the Di Canio’s,The Shevchenko or the Crespo, the Ibrahimovich or the Suarez.  Where are the Ginola’s, the Henry, the Bergkamp, the Fowlers, the RVN, the RVP or the Torres? I could go on and on and on.  Even in midfield seedoft, Zidane, Gerrard, Lampard …… 
 

Of course there are a few of exceptions but in general terms today we have possession robots trying to walk the ball into the net, is Erling Haaland the only world class out and out 9 playing football under the age of 30? Would he have been considered world class in the past given his weakness outside the box.  20 years ago every top team had individual flair and individuality and quality up front.  Not only that many of them had huge personalities which made for entertainment as well, Keane v Viera anyone?
 

todays team would likely win in a head to head but that’s not the arguement , but it’s not better in any single way imo, it’s too robotic, to scientific.  Hopefully it is cyclical and this pep pish comes to an end. I’d actually change the offside rules to spread the game out and stop this high press bollocks. 

Edited September 14, 2024 by kingantti1874

[Penrices left boot]

1 hour ago, kingantti1874 said:

Some good points.  IMO I don’t really think football now is magical or even better in any way. 
 

Where is the flair and the individuality. Where are the forwards? Where are the Ronaldinho’s, the Rivaldo’s the Batistuta’s , the Adriano’s, the Shearer’s, the Owen’s, The Gullit, Overmars, Anelka’s, the Rooney, the Recoba the Ian Wights?The Laudrup, the Di Canio’s,The Shevchenko or the Crespo, the Ibrahimovich or the Suarez.  Where are the Ginola’s, the Henry, the Bergkamp, the Fowlers, the RVN, the RVP or the Torres? I could go on and on and on.  Even in midfield seedoft, Zidane, Gerrard, Lampard …… 
 

Of course there are a few of exceptions but in general terms today we have possession robots trying to walk the ball into the net, is Erling Haaland the only world class out and out 9 playing football under the age of 30? Would he have been considered world class in the past given his weakness outside the box.  20 years ago every top team had individual flair and individuality and quality up front.  Not only that many of them had huge personalities which made for entertainment as well, Keane v Viera anyone?
 

todays team would likely win in a head to head but that’s not the arguement , but it’s not better in any single way imo, it’s too robotic, to scientific.  Hopefully it is cyclical and this pep pish comes to an end. I’d actually change the offside rules to spread the game out and stop this high press bollocks. 

 

 

Needs rigged to the tune of "holding out for a hero".

 

Where have all the flair players gone,

And where are all the gods,

Where's the memorising Peles,

To fight the 5-4-1's,

Isn't there a dribbler to open a deeeefence,

Mid Saturday I rage and fret,

And I dream of what we need,

 

We need a Messi!,

I'm holding for a Wright at the end of the night,

He's gotta be strong,  he's gotta be fast,

He's gotta beat players one on one,

I need a Zeeeedann,

I'm holding out for along haired  Batistutaaaa,

It could be a Shearer, but not a defensive goooon,

Ronaldo, even if he's larger now,

Even if larger now,

 

 

Somewhere after transfer deadline,

In my wildest fantasy,

Somewhere  there's an Ibrahimovich,

Possibly,  but just beyond Hearts reach,

There's a Ronaldinho looking for a flick,

Laudrup, Di Canioooo,

And rising with the heat,

It's gonna take a Bergkamp v Newcastle flick to sweep me of my feeeet!!!

 

I need a Henry,

Holding out for a Geeenola,

But Barrie Mckay will have to do,

With Devlin running about and Kent hoofing it too,

I need a Nedved,

But Shankland will have to do, doo, doo, dooo doo

Ahhh I Need a Rivaldo...

But Vargas's pace will need to do!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 14, 2024 by Bazzas right boot

[Penrices left boot]

16 hours ago, RustyRightPeg said:

The death of the box to box midfielder. 

 

Yip, they were put in a box.

 

 

[DG_HMFC]

On 12/09/2024 at 22:12, Fort Vallance said:

Some of the stuff we watch now is magical. Some of it is mind numbing. 

Some of the stuff we watched in the 70's was mind numbing.  Some of it was magical. 

It's the best game in the world and it evolves. Why not just enjoy it.

 

Watching the top teams play football is excellent. And this idea that they are all about keeping possession is nonsense.

 

The likes of City, and Liverpool, play direct at times. Not shelling it long, but they're not afraid to try and get the ball in behind.

 

They put plenty crosses into the box and ask questions of defences.

 

The flip side is you have teams like Hearts who want to play a possession game, all about possession without the urgency and ability to actually break teams down. ****in borning.

[Star Lizard]

See if you want to see a good example of how it has changed closer to home , watch the 1998 cup final . Neither team pressing the life out of the game or utilising a low block . Both teams just try to attack the other . No “ they have the ball , we must geggenpress them all over the pitch until we get it back “ no “ we must keep possession at all costs for every minute of the game “ . An understanding in both teams that each other will have periods where they have the ball and not have the ball . It was much better to watch and lent itself more to individual talent standing out 

[Jacques de Gatineau]

17 hours ago, pettigrewsstylist said:

Yip. Practising flying heedbutts and knees to the face. 

Underrated skills.

[pettigrewsstylist]

3 hours ago, Tommy Brown said:

This

Biggest thing now is the pace and athletism of players.

Which means they are mostly made of bone china

[Harry Potter]

On 12/09/2024 at 07:50, alanjambo said:

The lack of shooting from distance is the thing that really annoys me about modern football, and especially about us at the moment. If the ground is wet and a shot is on, take it; the keeper might well spill it.

 

As others have said, the Pep effect is killing the enjoyment of football and ruining the flair players and individualism. Great team as they are, Man City bore me. Grealish is one of the few flair 'old style' players left and Pep has tried to coach that out of him.

 

Feigning injury and player going down clutching their faces when they've hardly been touched is my biggest annoyance about modern football though.

Your 1st sentence is very true, if you are just outside the box, have a pop at goal.

[feej]

Modern football is generally pish, outwith the odd exception. The standard of professional footballer is way lower than back when I was playing in the 80's. Average payers are totally hyped up.

Some of our younger fans should spend a little time watching the world cups of the 70s and 80s to see how good some of the players and teams were back then, I think they would get a wake up call.

Love the Hearts but I find watching the them at the moment boring and uninspiring.

[Penrices left boot]

38 minutes ago, feej said:

Modern football is generally pish, outwith the odd exception. The standard of professional footballer is way lower than back when I was playing in the 80's. Average payers are totally hyped up.

Some of our younger fans should spend a little time watching the world cups of the 70s and 80s to see how good some of the players and teams were back then, I think they would get a wake up call.

Love the Hearts but I find watching the them at the moment boring and uninspiring.

 

 

It's more that fitness, strength and athleticism have caught up.

Being naturally talented and have a great 5- 10 minute spell iIn a game isn’t enough, players would simply be out paced and out ran over 90 minutes.

 

Many ol footballers wouldn't last 30 minute's in todays games.

Their fitness, strength,  conditioning,  stamina would be closer to a Sunday leagues player than a top professional.

 

 

Same with most sports, fitness and stamina levels are miles ahead now v 40 or 50 years ago. 

Football, rugby,  tennis, Olympic games spring to mind.

 

The standard is higher across the board and fitness/ stamina is a great leveller.

However,  it means that being great at the sport isn't enough and that reflects on the teams with a lot of teams cancelling each other out and the quality dropping.

Edited September 14, 2024 by Bazzas right boot

[feej]

1 hour ago, Bazzas right boot said:

 

 

It's more that fitness, strength and athleticism have caught up.

Being naturally talented and have a great 5- 10 minute spell iIn a game isn’t enough, players would simply be out paced and out ran over 90 minutes.

 

Many ol footballers wouldn't last 30 minute's in todays games.

Their fitness, strength,  conditioning,  stamina would be closer to a Sunday leagues player than a top professional.

 

 

Same with most sports, fitness and stamina levels are miles ahead now v 40 or 50 years ago. 

Football, rugby,  tennis, Olympic games spring to mind.

 

The standard is higher across the board and fitness/ stamina is a great leveller.

However,  it means that being great at the sport isn't enough and that reflects on the teams with a lot of teams cancelling each other out and the quality dropping.

I don't disagree, it's so much more professional regarding fitness, diet etc, I miss the individuality, too much of the same player types plus some new laws are pants - I hate this delay when putting up the offside flag, I really think someone is gonna come a cropper and get an unnecessary career ending injury.

Anyway gonna get the TV on and keep everything crossed that we see a much improved performance today.

 

[Penrices left boot]

5 minutes ago, feej said:

I don't disagree, it's so much more professional regarding fitness, diet etc, I miss the individuality, too much of the same player types plus some new laws are pants - I hate this delay when putting up the offside flag, I really think someone is gonna come a cropper and get an unnecessary career ending injury.

Anyway gonna get the TV on and keep everything crossed that we see a much improved performance today.

 

 

Agreed.

 

Not convinced we'll turn in around today....

[feej]

Just now, Bazzas right boot said:

 

Agreed.

 

Not convinced we'll turn in around today....

Just seen the team, kinda worried, I just hope we don't lose any early goal as it could be along afternoon - confidence appears to be shot so a heavy defeat won't do them any favours.

[Ex member of the SaS]

8 minutes ago, feej said:

Just seen the team, kinda worried, I just hope we don't lose any early goal as it could be along afternoon - confidence appears to be shot so a heavy defeat won't do them any favours.

A heavy defeat and the season is over ( even this early. ) The players have no idea what the manager wants and can't play the way he is teaching. Therefore a big loss and they will go into their shell. So a heavy defeat and the board have to act as we can't sit bottom of the league for another two or three games.

[feej]

7 minutes ago, Ex member of the SaS said:

A heavy defeat and the season is over ( even this early. ) The players have no idea what the manager wants and can't play the way he is teaching. Therefore a big loss and they will go into their shell. So a heavy defeat and the board have to act as we can't sit bottom of the league for another two or three games.

When times are tough you need to show character, let's hope we see that today.

We have to fight our way out of this and show something different in our approach in the up and coming  matches however saying that this won't be the game we will see it I don't think.

 i hope we can be organised and disciplined and stay in the game long enough to give ourselves at least a wee chance.

Edited September 14, 2024 by feej

[Ex member of the SaS]

1 minute ago, feej said:

When times are tough you need to show character, let's hope we see that today.

We have to fight our way out of this and show something different in our approach in the up and coming  matches however saying that this won't be the game we will see it I don't think.

 i hope we can be organised and disciplined and stay in the game long enough to give ourselves at least a wee chance.

Agreed and said so earlier in the thread, I want to see application , desire and commitment, if none is on show then we will lose and heavily, SN has to understand his methods are not working, get the players in their preferred positions and get shooting instead of trying to walk the ball home. I am still of the opinion that if SN dumped the committee approach and took control, then maybe we would see an improvement, but sitting with an ipad and two clowns won't cut it. Unfortunately he won't turn his back on them so must take the hit along with them and go.