Joe Savage leaves Hearts ( updated )

[Ricardo Quaresma]

1 hour ago, JamboAl said:

I cannot believe you're still wrestling with this as a problem.

If Mr Anderson donates £1m and specifies it's for the women's team or the hotel (or whatever else) then, although it increases our revenue, there's not a penny more for the men's team signings.  Less money for signings often means less quality signings

 

You reckon that accounts for all of it?

[GinRummy]

19 minutes ago, JamboAl said:

You dished out a fairly stupid remark about the quality of the signings in relation to club revenue and I used JA's money as an example to show they are not necessarily directly related.

You seemed to be in a little confusion writing something you meant or maybe didn't.

Are you actually thick? Our best transfer window in recent times was summer 2021, we signed Beni, Devlin, McKay, Cochrane on loan and Ginnelly permanent. Since then our revenue has gone up which any fool could see should mean the quality of our signings should go up. They clearly haven’t. That’s literally all I’m getting at. 

[JamboAl]

1 hour ago, GinRummy said:

Are you actually thick? Our best transfer window in recent times was summer 2021, we signed Beni, Devlin, McKay, Cochrane on loan and Ginnelly permanent. Since then our revenue has gone up which any fool could see should mean the quality of our signings should go up. They clearly haven’t. That’s literally all I’m getting at. 

No but you are obviously thick.  As I have already said, because revenue goes up that does not necessarily mean more transfer funds are available especialy if the increase is for specified non playing purposes - or the women's team. 

Edited December 21, 2024 by JamboAl

[GinRummy]

5 minutes ago, JamboAl said:

No but you are obviously thick

Yeah obviously. Thinking having more money to spend should get us better players. What part of that do you disagree with dafty. 

Edited December 21, 2024 by GinRummy

[JamboAl]

1 hour ago, GinRummy said:

Yeah obviously. Thinking having more money to spend should get us better players. What part of that do you disagree with dafty. 

I'm obviously wasting my time.

That will apply if the money is allocated for players.  If the increase, however, is for specified purposes eg hotel, restaurant, pitch improvements etc, it will have no impact on playing resources - so unless you have a breakdown for each year you're whistling in the wind

[Hashimoto]

Back on topic...I genuinely believe that Savage knew what was coming down the track and decided to get out at the soonest possible time.

There was never going to be a place in the organisation once it was decided we were going down the Jamestown route. The stuff spewed out by McKinlay was all smoke and mirrors.
Savage had run his race, and I don't think the board trusted him, or wanted to hand over funds given that things were not improving
Personal abuse is never a good thing and should never be tolerated. However, this is football in Scotland we are talking about. If you're not thick skinned you are in the wrong business!

Savage went because the trust was lost IMO. McKinlay makes up stories to suit his own personal agenda. The guy has previous and is well known for it.

[GinRummy]

4 minutes ago, JamboAl said:

I'm obviously wasting my time.

That will apply if the money is allocated for players.  If the increase, however, is for specified purposes eg hotel, restaurant, pitch improvements etc, it will have no impact on playing resources - so unless you have a breakdown for each year you're whistling in the wind

Good god man. I’m whistling in the wind speaking to someone so stubborn. 
I’ll ask two questions which you won’t answer and everyone knows the answer to 

1 Is our player budget higher than 2021

2 if the answer to 1 is yes (hint, it is) why has every transfer window  since 2021 been worse than the window of that summer? 

[maroonsgotop]

4 hours ago, Pasquale for King said:

Exactly, now we go into a transfer window where a lot of wheeling and dealing needs to be done with a rookie and a nice guy head coach.

yup, with no Club or Recruitment experience 

[kingantti1874]

13 minutes ago, maroonsgotop said:

yup, with no Club or Recruitment experience 

Jones isn’t leading on recruitment though. 

[JamboAl]

21 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

Good god man. I’m whistling in the wind speaking to someone so stubborn. 
I’ll ask two questions which you won’t answer and everyone knows the answer to 

1 Is our player budget higher than 2021

2 if the answer to 1 is yes (hint, it is) why has every transfer window  since 2021 been worse than the window of that summer? 

Can you elaborate a little on the hint.  What are the figures (specifically allocated to players for the men's team)?

I may add that I reckon (guess) we spent more on players this close season than ever.  You can spend as much as you like on players but it helps if you go for quality rather than quantity and if you have the right coaching staff to bring the best out of them.  I'll leave you to decide whether we have instead of being obsessed by increased revenue alone.

[GinRummy]

Just now, JamboAl said:

Can you elaborate a little on the hint.  What are the figures (specifically allocated to players for the men's team)?

I may add that I reckon (guess) we spent more on players this close season than ever.  You can spend as much as you like on players but it helps if you go for quality rather than quantity and if you have the right coaching staff to bring the best out of them.  I'll leave you to decide whether we have instead of being obsessed by increased revenue alone.

Good points there. That’s right Al we are spending more on players now.  We have gone for quality over quantity. So we’ve wasted our increased budget by buying lots of players rather than good ones. So this is a Joe Savage thread, Joe Savage best transfer window was summer 2021. So maybe it’s more to do with the managers’ wanting to sign loads of average players rather than increase the quality of our best starting 11. 
 

Thanks for your answer. 

[JamboAl]

5 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

Good points there. That’s right Al we are spending more on players now.  We have gone for quality over quantity. So we’ve wasted our increased budget by buying lots of players rather than good ones. So this is a Joe Savage thread, Joe Savage best transfer window was summer 2021. So maybe it’s more to do with the managers’ wanting to sign loads of average players rather than increase the quality of our best starting 11. 
 

Thanks for your answer. 

Thanks for yours as well but it does not alter the fact that increased revenue does not necessarily equate to increased funds for players.

You omitted to give the figures.  Was that an oversight or were you talking something that rhymes with oversight?

[maroonsgotop]

17 minutes ago, kingantti1874 said:

Jones isn’t leading on recruitment though. 

It's part of his remit.

 

"Sporting Director, Graeme will oversee all aspects of the club’s football department, leading on performance, recruitment, academy and supporting both men’s and women’s team footballing matters." taken from Hearts web site.

[GinRummy]

Just now, JamboAl said:

Thanks for yours as well but it does not alter the fact that increased revenue does not necessarily equate to increased funds for players.

You omitted to give the figures.  Was that an oversight or were you talking something that rhymes with oversight?

I don’t know the figures but you stated -

I may add that I reckon (guess) we spent more on players this close season than ever.  You can spend as much as you like on players but it helps if you go for quality rather than quantity

 

So let’s be honest with each other and assume we are spending more than 2021. 

if I had used the phrase ‘increased first team budget’ which would have been more accurate to what I meant I’m guessing this chat wouldn’t have gone the way it has. in any case, it’s been a real pleasure. 

[The Treasurer]

3 minutes ago, maroonsgotop said:

It's part of his remit.

 

"Sporting Director, Graeme will oversee all aspects of the club’s football department, leading on performance, recruitment, academy and supporting both men’s and women’s team footballing matters." taken from Hearts web site.

His job involves dealing with contacts etc, not identifying players. I believe we have a state of the art analytics company leading that 

[JamboAl]

10 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

I don’t know the figures but you stated -

I may add that I reckon (guess) we spent more on players this close season than ever.  You can spend as much as you like on players but it helps if you go for quality rather than quantity

 

So let’s be honest with each other and assume we are spending more than 2021. 

if I had used the phrase ‘increased first team budget’ which would have been more accurate to what I meant I’m guessing this chat wouldn’t have gone the way it has. in any case, it’s been a real pleasure. 

Yes, but you didn't -  and obviously cannot give first team budget figures so your assertion is baseless.

As regards your choice of 2021, I'd be very surprised if most teams didn't spend more than 2021 given the hit taken from covid attendances etc and consequently revenue.

 

Edited December 21, 2024 by JamboAl

[maroonsgotop]

3 minutes ago, The Treasurer said:

His job involves dealing with contacts etc, not identifying players. I believe we have a state of the art analytics company leading that 

Just posting what it says on Hearts web site about his responsibilities. Appreciate Bloom is involved but I'm not clear on the specifics or how the parameters are to be set as part of the input to get his algorithms running. 

[GinRummy]

Just now, JamboAl said:

Yes, but you didn't -  and obviously cannot give first team budget figures so your assertion is baseless..

As regards your choice of 2021, I'd be very surprised if most teams didn't spend more than 2021 given the hit taken from covid attendances etc and consequently revenue

 

That’s my point though and twice now you’ve backed it, the quote I used in my previous post and your assertion that most teams spent more now than in 2021. it’s common sense, particularly as we had spent the previous season in the championship that we spent more now than then. It’s not even worth debating. 
 

Yet, to repeat myself, our best window under Savages recruitment team was summer 2021. There have been 6 windows since then and no noticable increase in quality in our starting 11. That’s a concern to me. 
 

 

[JamboAl]

7 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

That’s my point though and twice now you’ve backed it, the quote I used in my previous post and your assertion that most teams spent more now than in 2021. it’s common sense, particularly as we had spent the previous season in the championship that we spent more now than then. It’s not even worth debating. 
 

Yet, to repeat myself, our best window under Savages recruitment team was summer 2021. There have been 6 windows since then and no noticable increase in quality in our starting 11. That’s a concern to me. 
 

 

To repeat my point, it is that increased revenue does not necessarily equate to increased playing budget.

I think what you're really trying to say is that the quality of signings has regressed under Savage since 2021 but that might improve as he's no longer with us.

[GinRummy]

5 minutes ago, JamboAl said:

To repeat my point, it is that increased revenue does not necessarily equate to increased playing budget.

I think what you're really trying to say is that the quality of signings has regressed under Savage since 2021 but that might improve as he's no longer with us.

Yeah I’ve already conceded that I should have said playing budget. 
 

I think it’s undeniable the quality has regressed since then. What I’m really interested in is why? You made a fair point that quality over quantity has been the policy. Personally I think it’s more than that but that’s just my thoughts. 

[Pasquale for King]

1 hour ago, maroonsgotop said:

yup, with no Club or Recruitment experience 

Only here eh 🙄🤦🏽

[Jambof3tornado]

49 minutes ago, The Treasurer said:

His job involves dealing with contacts etc, not identifying players. I believe we have a state of the art analytics company leading that 

Who does the next bit though? The analytics identifies suitable targets,who is then getting targets round the table for contract talks and getting deals done? 

[Des Lynam]

30 minutes ago, JamboAl said:

To repeat my point, it is that increased revenue does not necessarily equate to increased playing budget.

I think what you're really trying to say is that the quality of signings has regressed under Savage since 2021 but that might improve as he's no longer with us.

You’re highlighting the problem at Hearts. 

[Pasquale for King]

2 hours ago, GinRummy said:

Good god man. I’m whistling in the wind speaking to someone so stubborn. 
I’ll ask two questions which you won’t answer and everyone knows the answer to 

1 Is our player budget higher than 2021

2 if the answer to 1 is yes (hint, it is) why has every transfer window  since 2021 been worse than the window of that summer? 

The ignore function is your friend, life is way to short.

[Pasquale for King]

1 hour ago, kingantti1874 said:

Jones isn’t leading on recruitment though. 

Oh yes he is

[Pasquale for King]

1 hour ago, The Treasurer said:

His job involves dealing with contacts etc, not identifying players. I believe we have a state of the art analytics company leading that 

Of which he has absolutely NO EXPERIENCE OR KNOWLEDGE of. 

[south morocco]

55 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

Of which he has absolutely NO EXPERIENCE OR KNOWLEDGE of. 

How can you possibly know that? Maybe he’s been down to Jamestown to understand the process etc. Not difficult to think that’s possible before such a deal was agreed etc.

[Pasquale for King]

17 minutes ago, south morocco said:

How can you possibly know that? Maybe he’s been down to Jamestown to understand the process etc. Not difficult to think that’s possible before such a deal was agreed etc.

Im not talking about the analytics, he start about 3 weeks ago and they’re extremely secretive about who they show the process too, im talking about doing transfers deals, organising contracts, getting guys out the door to make way for others to come in, sell on fees, loan deals, playing a certain amount of games and the obligation to buy etc etc etc.
I know that for a fact because hes never worked at a football club before, and all we have is nice Neil and London Lancefield to help him. 
Our most important transfer window for a long time, in the hands of an absolute rookie. 

Edited December 21, 2024 by Pasquale for King

[The Treasurer]

11 hours ago, Pasquale for King said:

Im not talking about the analytics, he start about 3 weeks ago and they’re extremely secretive about who they show the process too, im talking about doing transfers deals, organising contracts, getting guys out the door to make way for others to come in, sell on fees, loan deals, playing a certain amount of games and the obligation to buy etc etc etc.
I know that for a fact because hes never worked at a football club before, and all we have is nice Neil and London Lancefield to help him. 
Our most important transfer window for a long time, in the hands of an absolute rookie. 

Not absolutely certain but I'm sure he will have some experience of dealing with contacts, maybe not in football, but he will have a budget to work within so will know how much we can offer. He will also have a list of who are surplus to requirements and whether we'd want money for them or if it might be worth while paying to get them off the books

[kingantti1874]

13 hours ago, maroonsgotop said:

Just posting what it says on Hearts web site about his responsibilities. Appreciate Bloom is involved but I'm not clear on the specifics or how the parameters are to be set as part of the input to get his algorithms running. 

JA are leading on the identification of players. Jones main role is performance.  Andrew McKinlay has said this publicly more than once.  Given the introduction of JamesTown we are looking for a SD with a different skillset . 

[kingantti1874]

His role as regarding contracts will be agreeing wages and bonus payments and clauses.  Someone else within our 300 employees will draft the actual contract. 

[DarthVodka]

He oversee’s - I.e. the people that lead units report to him. He also has an absolute ton of contacts with in football. He’s not a medic

 

It would be interesting to see how the analytics works in practice, do hearts give needs to JA then they throw up names and our scouts go then watch? Who makes final decisions - jones, Critchley? 

[McCrae]

why is that Hearts always go for the cheap inexperienced option? 

[The Real Maroonblood]

1 hour ago, McCrae said:

why is that Hearts always go for the cheap inexperienced option? 

It’s disgraceful.

Penny pinching in the hope they’ll get it right someday.

[lost in space]

1 hour ago, McCrae said:

why is that Hearts always go for the cheap inexperienced option? 

Re Jones - he wont be a cheap option.  He had a well paid job with the SFA.  He is VERY inexperienced though at the job we (the fans) want him for.

Probably an excellent administrator - and a very nice chap.

[Carter]

1 hour ago, McCrae said:

why is that Hearts always go for the cheap inexperienced option? 

It's the main reason why we find ourselves in this predicament. Experience resisted at all cost. 

 

Staggering really. 

[hmfc1440]

14 hours ago, Pasquale for King said:

Oh yes he is

It does say "leading". The unfortunate part being he has no experience. TBH this particular appointment is all over the place & even if he did have the experience would require a line manager. The more you look at this Board the more you realize it's all done on a wing & a prayer, a patchwork quilt with plasters & sewn-up bits & gaping holes - THERE IS ZERO PRO FOOTBALL STRUCTURE. It's way worse than one can imagine unless Jamestown is all-in & on the ball, & even that still leaves holes. It's a complete fail.

[Pasquale for King]

3 minutes ago, hmfc1440 said:

It does say "leading". The unfortunate part being he has no experience. TBH this particular appointment is all over the place & even if he did have the experience would require a line manager. The more you look at this Board the more you realize it's all done on a wing & a prayer, a patchwork quilt with plasters & sewn-up bits & gaping holes - THERE IS ZERO PRO FOOTBALL STRUCTURE. It's way worse than one can imagine unless Jamestown is all-in & on the ball, & even that still leaves holes. It's a complete fail.

Exactly, as has been said Savage told them he was leaving and it took the best part of a year to get someone in, who has no experience in most of the roles hes in charge of. 
They once again show how little they grasp football, allowing a rookie manager to control recruitment in the summer, then have to sack him and be stuck with his players and 13 guys who played under Neilson also. 
What really annoys me though is how nobody takes responsibility for their disastrous mistakes, rail against any form of criticism and truly believe that we are fortunate to have them ****ing up our club and wasting millions of our money, while we pay them for the privilege.

[Pasquale for King]

2 hours ago, The Treasurer said:

Not absolutely certain but I'm sure he will have some experience of dealing with contacts, maybe not in football, but he will have a budget to work within so will know how much we can offer. He will also have a list of who are surplus to requirements and whether we'd want money for them or if it might be worth while paying to get them off the books

You or i have as much experience of that, would anyone want us to do this? He has no experience of doing anything you have just listed, not easy telling people they are no longer wanted and to find another club etc, is paying them off part of the budget or wages already allocated. So many things that need to be rectified, it would’ve been difficult for a experienced person. For example Levein was supposed to be reducing his bloated wage bill at this point 5 years ago when Stendel took over, he didn’t get anyone out the door. 
There are so many similarities with 5 years ago when we were demoted, you would imagine these business experts might’ve realised what went wrong then, and made sure it didn’t happen again? 

[Pasquale for King]

2 hours ago, kingantti1874 said:

His role as regarding contracts will be agreeing wages and bonus payments and clauses.  Someone else within our 300 employees will draft the actual contract. 

Which he has no experience of.

[pettigrewsstylist]

17 hours ago, Hashimoto said:

Back on topic...I genuinely believe that Savage knew what was coming down the track and decided to get out at the soonest possible time.

There was never going to be a place in the organisation once it was decided we were going down the Jamestown route. The stuff spewed out by McKinlay was all smoke and mirrors.
Savage had run his race, and I don't think the board trusted him, or wanted to hand over funds given that things were not improving
Personal abuse is never a good thing and should never be tolerated. However, this is football in Scotland we are talking about. If you're not thick skinned you are in the wrong business!

Savage went because the trust was lost IMO. McKinlay makes up stories to suit his own personal agenda. The guy has previous and is well known for it.

If Mckinlay told me it was raining I would open my priveliged curtains and look out my privileged window.

Imcompetent, arrogant, wage thief.

[Bill Sikes]

People should just admit they don't know anything about running a football club, recruiting players, accountancy and the basics of running a business.

 

Just once in a while to clean the slate.

[GinRummy]

5 minutes ago, Bill Sikes said:

 Dear Andrew 
 

People should just admit they don't know anything about running a football club, recruiting players, accountancy and the basics of running a business.

 

Just once in a while to clean the slate.

Merry Christmas 

Love Bullseye. 

 

[Chuck Berry]

7 minutes ago, Bill Sikes said:

People should just admit they don't know anything about running a football club, recruiting players, accountancy and the basics of running a business.

 

Just once in a while to clean the slate.

 

[Chuck Berry]

1 minute ago, GinRummy said:

 

 

Ah Bulls-eye, it all makes perfect sense now.  

[pettigrewsstylist]

14 hours ago, Pasquale for King said:

Im not talking about the analytics, he start about 3 weeks ago and they’re extremely secretive about who they show the process too, im talking about doing transfers deals, organising contracts, getting guys out the door to make way for others to come in, sell on fees, loan deals, playing a certain amount of games and the obligation to buy etc etc etc.
I know that for a fact because hes never worked at a football club before, and all we have is nice Neil and London Lancefield to help him. 
Our most important transfer window for a long time, in the hands of an absolute rookie. 

It's our innovative and game changing style.

[pettigrewsstylist]

2 hours ago, McCrae said:

why is that Hearts always go for the cheap inexperienced option? 

Because our board think they are uber clever geniuses.

Even today it just stumbles into next calamity.

[i8hibsh]

2 hours ago, McCrae said:

why is that Hearts always go for the cheap inexperienced option? 

 

Not when it comes to hotel fixtures. features and fittings.

[Jambof3tornado]

Did I read correctly that Savages new enterprise was as a sort of middle man? Any possibility he'll be involved in a consultant style basis given it seems no bugger else is set up to carry out signings?

[Carter]

1 hour ago, Pasquale for King said:

Exactly, as has been said Savage told them he was leaving and it took the best part of a year to get someone in, who has no experience in most of the roles hes in charge of. 
They once again show how little they grasp football, allowing a rookie manager to control recruitment in the summer, then have to sack him and be stuck with his players and 13 guys who played under Neilson also. 
What really annoys me though is how nobody takes responsibility for their disastrous mistakes, rail against any form of criticism and truly believe that we are fortunate to have them ****ing up our club and wasting millions of our money, while we pay them for the privilege.

They take no responsibility because they're accountable to nobody. The FoH Board is completely subservient to Budge / Hearts Board. That's entirely by design.

 

They're under it now though and I suspect they've realised that hence the ridiculous ill judged communication on Friday afternoon. Which probably served to make things worse! 

 

The inability to gauge supporter sentiment given fan ownership concept is astonishing. It's underpinned by disdain and wholly misguided arrogance.