Horizon IT - Post Office - Public Enquiry

[Victorian]

It's possible to make opinion based observations that could be described as critical without suggesting you are better skilled and qualified,  etc.

 

Were you ever critical of qualified,  professional people during,  for example,  the pandemic?

 

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

This inquiry is ultimately a waste of time.  There won’t be a prosecution at the end of it 

[Victorian]

Just now, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

This inquiry is ultimately a waste of time.  There won’t be a prosecution at the end of it 

 

Not arising from it anyway.  Could happen separately.  I'm more doubtful now because the investigatory resources that would need to go into it would be huge.  Public interest might be a factor.

 

Jenkins wilĺ get prosecuted.  Quite a few lawyers likely to be struck off.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

4 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

Not arising from it anyway.  Could happen separately.  I'm more doubtful now because the investigatory resources that would need to go into it would be huge.  Public interest might be a factor.

 

Jenkins wilĺ get prosecuted.  Quite a few lawyers likely to be struck off.

hopefully the stress kills a few of them 

[WorldChampions1902]

I noticed that a ‘material witness”, whom the Inquiry have tried to track down, has ‘gone missing’. Vennels said today she last spoke to him in November, but he is now an officer in the Para Regiment and is now “off-grid”.
 

Strange.

[Mikey1874]

Picture of the day as today's evidence just ended

 

 

[JWL]

Keir Starmer should just come out and say that one of the first things a Labour government will do, is ensure all senior executives at the PO will be arrested and held on corruption charges with prosecutions to follow. He could then light a cigar and put his feet up for the next 6 weeks. (Yeah, I know, not quite as easy as that and never going to happen but what a feckin statement it would be)!!!!

[Victorian]

I think,  maybe,  at one point when the little people were groaning at her answers,  she appeared to turn and give them a glare,  only to realise that probably wasn't the best idea ever.

[Tommy Brown]

Would be good to try and catch up Vennels being quizzed.

Seen a snipper of SPM lawyer Henry giving her both barrels.

 

For a woman of the cloth, I had hoped for some conscience. But it seems to have been the par for course.

Avoidance and no recollection.

The standard opening apology, quite frankly shouldn't be entertained.

[Victorian]

15 minutes ago, Chief Miekelson said:

Very pleasing to see some tweets from a law professor on X today to the effect PV could face prosecution under three different categories (and a charge of  contempt of parliament for her lying to the committe back in 2017) and that the directors could also be open to legal action. Quite a fall from grace for the one-time OBE holder and prospective Bishop of London candidate. She is utterly and rightly ruined & disgraced. 

Perverting the course of justice is also a common theme that is possible , even extending to the lawyers. 

 

Sure I read previously that her appearance at the select committee can't lead to anything.  Parliament has no power to issue any meaningful sanctions.  Her evidence in parliament is protected by privilege.  

[Victorian]

2 minutes ago, Chief Miekelson said:

Agreed, that wouldn't lead to  criminal sanction or punishment but for a person of her standing in the community (as was) it would be a further humiliation, richly deserved.  Jail time would obviously be the most popular choice and hopefully that will follow for her and all the others who did  so much damage. 

 

My current belief is that the scope of potential prosecutions will be directly influenced on the grounds of 'public interest'.   Actual public interest will be sidelined.  Public interest will be defined by cost.  

 

The low hanging fruit may face prosecution.  Gareth Jenkins because he provided untruthful evidence in court.  Some in-house and external lawyers will face professional punishment.  Possibly to also attract the interest of prosecutors.  The best hope of pursuing the likes of Vennells will be if private funding can facilitate the evidence gathering to bring about charges.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

Someone needs to start harassing this Macleod ***** in Australia 

[Victorian]

I think there's some other ***** who they haven't even been able to trace and locate.  An I.T. director I think.

[frankblack]

50 minutes ago, Victorian said:

I think there's some other ***** who they haven't even been able to trace and locate.  An I.T. director I think.

 

I'd imagine those with the means to relocate would have once that court case was lost.

[WorldChampions1902]

17 hours ago, Victorian said:

I think there's some other ***** who they haven't even been able to trace and locate.  An I.T. director I think.

Mike Young. During the hearing Vennels said that she last spoke to him in November but had been unable to contact him since. She also seemed to suggest that he was now an officer in the Para Regiment? If I heard that correctly, how the hell are the Enquiry declaring that they are unable to locate him? It doesn’t add up. A bit like the Horizon software.

[frankblack]

34 minutes ago, Chief Miekelson said:

Try her in absentia and then ban her for life from entering the UK. It's a gross insult to the victims and it shouldn't be accepted. I appreciate it'll be way down Sir Wynn's list of priorities but she need to be held to account - or pay the price for her behaviour towards the inquiry. The victims deserve no less. 

 

This isn't a trial.... yet.

 

This is an inquiry that may recommend one, and then extradition proceedings could happen where required.

[Joey J J Jr Shabadoo]

5 hours ago, WorldChampions1902 said:

Mike Young. During the hearing Vennels said that she last spoke to him in November but had been unable to contact him since. She also seemed to suggest that he was now an officer in the Para Regiment? If I heard that correctly, how the hell are the Enquiry declaring that they are unable to locate him? It doesn’t add up. A bit like the Horizon software.

Lying obviously comes second nature to people of the clergy.

[frankblack]

13 minutes ago, Chief Miekelson said:

I'm perfectly aware of that. 

 

What you asked for would never happen unless criminal proceedings have been initiated.

 

There are two possible outcomes here - the inquiry triggers a criminal investigation and trial of those culpable, or it doesn't and civil proceedings are initiated by Alan Bates and his team.

[frankblack]

6 minutes ago, Chief Miekelson said:

I'm perfectly aware of that too - I've already posted on the matter, yesterday. And the only reason I mentioned it is because the chair of the inquiry has been quoted as saying he doesn't have the time to go through with a  prosecution which doesn't really seem to be sending out the right signals or delivering the justice the victims deserve. 

 

For the second post in a row you start with an unnecessary confrontational response.

 

Don't expect everyone to read everything you posted on a 17 page thread. 

[Victorian]

Ooft.  Well this seems a good start.  

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/article/2024/may/27/post-office-scandal-police-to-deploy-80-detectives-for-criminal-inquiry

[frankblack]

6 minutes ago, Victorian said:

Ooft.  Well this seems a good start.  

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/article/2024/may/27/post-office-scandal-police-to-deploy-80-detectives-for-criminal-inquiry

 

Plenty of time for them to leave the country.

[Victorian]

7 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Plenty of time for them to leave the country.

 

Got to start somewhere.  

 

Not ideal for SPMs to have to wait 2 years at least for any charges.  But the plus side is at least 2 years of an investigation hanging over some of these crooks.  

[Hagar the Horrible]

50 minutes ago, Victorian said:

Ooft.  Well this seems a good start.  

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/article/2024/may/27/post-office-scandal-police-to-deploy-80-detectives-for-criminal-inquiry

At the end of the day, the expert witnesses lied in court. Top execs took bonuses because the PO made a profit. But at the expense of their employees who were forced to pay any and all shortcomings from known bugs in their software. That is embezzlement.

[Victorian]

1 minute ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

At the end of the day, the expert witnesses lied in court. Top execs took bonuses because the PO made a profit. But at the expense of their employees who were forced to pay any and all shortcomings from known bugs in their software. That is embezzlement.

 

It's more fraud than embezzlement.  I'm also interested to see if there will be action on their fraudulent accounting practices.  All of their annual accounts are based on bogus returns.  And surely there should be particular charges for the directors and office bearers because of their negligence in the discharge of duty to the company and it's shareholder.

[redjambo]

1 minute ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

At the end of the day, the expert witnesses lied in court. Top execs took bonuses because the PO made a profit. But at the expense of their employees who were forced to pay any and all shortcomings from known bugs in their software. That is embezzlement.

 

May be, but the police investigation, from what I read, may not be covering that. It will reportedly be focussing on perjury and perverting the course of justice.

[frankblack]

10 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

It's more fraud than embezzlement.  I'm also interested to see if there will be action on their fraudulent accounting practices.  All of their annual accounts are based on bogus returns.  And surely there should be particular charges for the directors and office bearers because of their negligence in the discharge of duty to the company and it's shareholder.

 

Fraud by false accounting seems to describe the altering of the accounts maliciously.

[Victorian]

1 minute ago, frankblack said:

 

Fraud by false accounting seems to describe the altering of the accounts maliciously.

 

As I understand it,  they took shortfalls money from people and it sat in suspense accounts while it was in query or dispute.  They then took it upon themselves to transfer those sums into their profit & loss.

 

So borderline illegal gains (money that wasn't theirs) made up a part,  a small part,  of their annual results.

 

A fair bit of fraud in there.

[frankblack]

2 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

As I understand it,  they took shortfalls money from people and it sat in suspense accounts while it was in query or dispute.  They then took it upon themselves to transfer those sums into their profit & loss.

 

So borderline illegal gains (money that wasn't theirs) made up a part,  a small part,  of their annual results.

 

A fair bit of fraud in there.

 

Of course.  Serious porridge for those complicit.

[Footballfirst]

29 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

As I understand it,  they took shortfalls money from people and it sat in suspense accounts while it was in query or dispute.  They then took it upon themselves to transfer those sums into their profit & loss.

 

So borderline illegal gains (money that wasn't theirs) made up a part,  a small part,  of their annual results.

 

A fair bit of fraud in there.

I'm sure a recent witness suggested that the reported "suspense account" wasn't quite the issue it was alleged.  You are correct that suspense accounts were used for amounts that were in dispute, but once resolved (the SPMR paid up, or the PO wrote it off) then the suspense account was cleared (assuming I understood the evidence given).

 

My understanding of the misappropriation of funds (or theft) by the PO, was simply that there was no actual loss of money to the PO. Horizon wrongly reported figures (shortfalls) that were mostly paid by by the SPMR from their own funds.  Whether or not the amounts went through a dispute process (intermediate step of being held in a suspense account), ultimately, both disputed and accepted shortfalls were made good by the SPMR. The result was the same, in that the PO now held a large amount of SPMRs money that didn't belong to it.  That was additional profit that helped justify bonuses for PO execs and employees.

 

You may recall that some of the investigators were given personal objectives to recover xx% of the shortfalls, and were accordingly paid bonuses if achieved.  Those objectives definitely led to some of the injustices and plea bargaining endured by the SPMRs. 

 

I don't think the inquiry has heard how many SPMRs just made up shortfalls routinely, or how many of those shortfalls (paid or unpaid) resulted in suspensions, or termination, without actually being prosecuted.

 

We have heard repeatedly about there being 12,000 branches or more in the network, the vast majority of which had no problems. However, there are over 4,000 claims in the various compensation schemes, so this wasn't an issue that affected just a few branches. Most of the claims relate to SPMRs making up shortfalls where they thought they must have been liable. It was a widespread and system-wide/systemic issue that the PO still has problems acknowledging to this day. 

[Victorian]

12 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

I'm sure a recent witness suggested that the reported "suspense account" wasn't quite the issue it was alleged.  You are correct that suspense accounts were used for amounts that were in dispute, but once resolved (the SPMR paid up, or the PO wrote it off) then the suspense account was cleared (assuming I understood the evidence given).

 

My understanding of the misappropriation of funds (or theft) by the PO, was simply that there was no actual loss of money to the PO. Horizon wrongly reported figures (shortfalls) that were mostly paid by by the SPMR from their own funds.  Whether or not the amounts went through a dispute process (intermediate step of being held in a suspense account), ultimately, both disputed and accepted shortfalls were made good by the SPMR. The result was the same, in that the PO now held a large amount of SPMRs money that didn't belong to it.  That was additional profit that helped justify bonuses for PO execs and employees.

 

You may recall that some of the investigators were given personal objectives to recover xx% of the shortfalls, and were accordingly paid bonuses if achieved.  Those objectives definitely led to some of the injustices and plea bargaining endured by the SPMRs. 

 

I don't think the inquiry has heard how many SPMRs just made up shortfalls routinely, or how many of those shortfalls (paid or unpaid) resulted in suspensions, or termination, without actually being prosecuted.

 

We have heard repeatedly about there being 12,000 branches or more in the network, the vast majority of which had no problems. However, there are over 4,000 claims in the various compensation schemes, so this wasn't an issue that affected just a few branches. Most of the claims relate to SPMRs making up shortfalls where they thought they must have been liable. It was a widespread and system-wide/systemic issue that the PO still has problems acknowledging to this day. 

 

As an irony I think the same leveraging should be inflicted on the guilty.  They menaced the SPMs into admissions of false accounting and into the payment of bogus shortfalls under duress of being imprisoned for fraud.  The guilty should be leveraged into pleading guilty to perverting the course of justice under similar duress of being made to foot the bill of a full audit and reconciliation of the accounts of every financial year in question.

[Victorian]

Mike Young,  the untraceable I.T. director has been traced at his house in Berkshire.  He says he's had the same contact details for 35 years.

 

 

He also says he's keen to give evidence.  And seems a bit irritated about being used as flak by Vennells.

 

[Boab]

Fujitsu must have some PR department. Or major pals. 

[Lone Striker]

8 hours ago, Victorian said:

Mike Young,  the untraceable I.T. director has been traced at his house in Berkshire.  He says he's had the same contact details for 35 years.

 

  

He also says he's keen to give evidence.  And seems a bit irritated about being used as flak by Vennells.

 

Any idea whose responsibility it was to make contact with this guy who has at his house all this time ?  

[Victorian]

42 minutes ago, Lone Striker said:

Any idea whose responsibility it was to make contact with this guy who has at his house all this time ?  

 

No idea.  But it would seem as if he was a bit easier to find than was suggested.  Or he's just surfaced to put the record straight.  He seems like another snivelling *****.

[Lone Striker]

10 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

No idea.  But it would seem as if he was a bit easier to find than was suggested.  Or he's just surfaced to put the record straight.  He seems like another snivelling *****.

Its a strange one.  Hopefully there's some very red & worried faces among the PO & FJ witness cabal at the news that he was at his house all along.   

Mind you, he could turn out to be just another  

 

 

[Footballfirst]

Nick Wallis' blog gives a good summary of today's evidence from ex chairman Alice Perkins.

She fits the standard profile of "no-one told me, I don't recall, what I wrote was not what I meant", despite all the contemporaneous evidence pointing to the contrary.

 

https://www.postofficescandal.uk/post/perkins-in-wonderland-day-1/

 

She has a second day to give evidence tomorrow. Jason Beer did a good job on showing up her failures today. I'm sure that the lawyers for the core participants will have something to say as well.

[Nookie Bear]

9 hours ago, Footballfirst said:

Nick Wallis' blog gives a good summary of today's evidence from ex chairman Alice Perkins.

She fits the standard profile of "no-one told me, I don't recall, what I wrote was not what I meant", despite all the contemporaneous evidence pointing to the contrary.

 

https://www.postofficescandal.uk/post/perkins-in-wonderland-day-1/

 

She has a second day to give evidence tomorrow. Jason Beer did a good job on showing up her failures today. I'm sure that the lawyers for the core participants will have something to say as well.

 

The problem seems to be there is no jeopardy in answering in that evasive manner. If i commit a crim i can't use "i don't recall" as an excuse because the evidence suggests otherwise.

 

If there was a genuine threat of jail time then you can be certain they would be throwing each other under the bus at every opportunity and there would be real consequences. As it stands it all sounds a bit like a massive corporate-style "lessons have been learnt and we must move on" campaign.

[stuart500]

And so Mrs Straw's time in the hot seat is over.

 

Another stunning performance of lies, deception, and pretending to give a shit.

 

Next year's BAFTAS really need to add a couple of new categories:-

 

Best Horizon Inquiry male and female actors.

 

Paula Vennells probably shades the female category for me but lots of strong candidates.

 

Undecided for the male category. Gareth Jenkins will probably sweep that up.

 

Honourable mention for Jarnail 'Embarra' Singh for comedy gold 'copulation' moment.

 

 

[Footballfirst]

Alan Bates knighted in the latest honours list.

 

I would have told them to stuff it.  The establishment failed him and the rest of the sub-postmasters.

[Lone Striker]

18 hours ago, Footballfirst said:

Alan Bates knighted in the latest honours list.

 

I would have told them to stuff it.  The establishment failed him and the rest of the sub-postmasters.

Yep. After everything  he and the other SPM's have been through, a fairly meaningless recognition by the establishment is no recompense - especially when the 2 financial offers made to  him by the same establishment so far have been way short of what his legal people advised was due.  

[Hagar the Horrible]

I see Mr Henderson from Second Sight having a real dig at Vennells and the PO, for constantly sabotaging their investigation. he felt there was a cover up and possibly criminal conspiracy

 

Pretty damming stuff 

[Mikey1874]

The two guys today have destroyed the Post Office.

[frankblack]

3 hours ago, Mikey1874 said:

The two guys today have destroyed the Post Office.

 

If I was on a jury in a criminal case against the PO, I'd be 100% set on a guilty verdict.

 

Will be some squeaky bums from those accused today, waiting to hear what happens next.

[ehcaley]

Looking forward to Friday when George Thomson appears🍿🍿🍿

[Lone Striker]

6 hours ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

I see Mr Henderson from Second Sight having a real dig at Vennells and the PO, for constantly sabotaging their investigation. he felt there was a cover up and possibly criminal conspiracy

 

Pretty damming stuff 

 

6 hours ago, Mikey1874 said:

The two guys today have destroyed the Post Office.

 

3 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

If I was on a jury in a criminal case against the PO, I'd be 100% set on a guilty verdict.

 

Will be some squeaky bums from those accused today, waiting to hear what happens next.

Imagine waiting until they'd prosecuted hundreds of SPMs for theft etc ..... before thinking that it might be e good "tick in the box" for their reputation  to get an external specialist audit company to rubber-stamp the reasons for these prosecutions.       And  then throw their hands up in horror when Second Sight present their findings.  And then decide just to carry on with more unsafe prosecutions anyway.  

 

 

[Hagar the Horrible]

10 hours ago, Lone Striker said:

 

 

Imagine waiting until they'd prosecuted hundreds of SPMs for theft etc ..... before thinking that it might be e good "tick in the box" for their reputation  to get an external specialist audit company to rubber-stamp the reasons for these prosecutions.       And  then throw their hands up in horror when Second Sight present their findings.  And then decide just to carry on with more unsafe prosecutions anyway.  

 

 

And we have just given a knighthood to a conspiracy theory nut. Because sometime unimaginable as it is that there could be a conspiracy on this scale and for so long.  Yet there was.  I don't think how much of a hero Alan Bates thinks he is, He really is up there, he never gave up against impossible odds, very scary legal system weighted against the ordinary man and the TRUTH.

[RobNox]

I think it's always telling in these sort of cases how many of the people being questioned seem to suffer from selective memory.  They seem to be able to clearly recall events that don't incriminate them, then suddenly have limited recollection of events that would incriminate them.  

[Hagar the Horrible]

5 hours ago, RobNox said:

I think it's always telling in these sort of cases how many of the people being questioned seem to suffer from selective memory.  They seem to be able to clearly recall events that don't incriminate them, then suddenly have limited recollection of events that would incriminate them.  

Fuiitsu guy Duncan Tait, claims PO bosses never escalated issues with Horizon integrity.

 

Having used Fujitsu 25years ago, I find those claims astonishing, having been a customer ..NEVER EVER AGAIN.

 

Don't know if this is historical but PO leaks 555 names and addresses of postmasters prosecuted,  Is that cruelty or revenge?  They posted it on their website FFS

[Nookie Bear]

22 hours ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

Fuiitsu guy Duncan Tait, claims PO bosses never escalated issues with Horizon integrity.

 

Having used Fujitsu 25years ago, I find those claims astonishing, having been a customer ..NEVER EVER AGAIN.

 

Don't know if this is historical but PO leaks 555 names and addresses of postmasters prosecuted,  Is that cruelty or revenge?  They posted it on their website FFS

 

Perhaps i am confusing the TV series with the more nuanced facts but did Fujitsu not try and erase the fact the Union rep visited Fujitsu headquarters and witnessed the potential for external interference actually happening?

[ehcaley]

Watching Thomson evidence to enquiry,a slow motion car crash.