Horizon IT - Post Office - Public Enquiry

[Footballfirst]

A full day's evidence (tomorrow) is now available to the Core Participants to question Vennells.  The chair also intends hearing the evidence remotely rather than being in the room.  I think their is a fair chance that that the questions and answers will become confrontational and we may hear a bit more noise from those attending as public observers. 

[Lone Striker]

15 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

A full day's evidence (tomorrow) is now available to the Core Participants to question Vennells.  The chair also intends hearing the evidence remotely rather than being in the room.  I think their is a fair chance that that the questions and answers will become confrontational and we may hear a bit more noise from those attending as public observers. 

Presumably that means the KC acting for the Core Participants ?    

[Mikey1874]

1 minute ago, Lone Striker said:

Presumably that means the KC acting for the Core Participants ?    

 

They have their own lawyers.

[Footballfirst]

Just now, Lone Striker said:

Presumably that means the KC acting for the Core Participants ?    

Sir Wyn said that he was looking for Jason Beer to exert control over those in the room. I took that to mean both the public and the legal representatives for the CPs.

[Footballfirst]

Question of the day from Jason Beer.

 

"You'd have us believe that that note was a misunderstanding between you and the keyboard you were typing on?"

[Victorian]

Full day for the attack dogs?  Hopefully a chance for Stein and Henry to have the time to be a bit more forensic with questions and following up on answers.  Time has always prevented them from properly pursuing things.

[Mikey1874]

It's quite hard to follow. But the Inquiry know what they are trying to get at.

 

This was one headline from today.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/may/23/paula-vennells-ruled-out-post-office-review-told-would-be-front-page-news

 

The former Post Office boss Paula Vennells killed a review that would have exposed the Horizon IT scandal more than 10 years ago after being told it would make “front-page news” but insisted she was not part of a cover-up.

During a second day of giving evidence at the public inquiry into the scandal, Vennells, who led the Post Office for nine years, said a different decision could have avoided a “lost decade” for persecuted branch operators.

 

Vennells already knew at the time of her decision in July 2013 that Gareth Jenkins, an engineer at Fujitsu who designed the Horizon accounting system, had withheld information from the courts about bugs in the software and was regarded as an “unsafe witness”.

 

She had asked a number of executives in an email why there might not be a full historical review of about 500 cases of post office operators accused of false accounting.

 

The Post Office’s then director of communications, Mark Davies, messaged Vennells about his concerns that such a move would “fuel the story” beyond the “usual suspects” who were reporting on potentially unsafe convictions.

 

Edited May 23, 2024 by Mikey1874

[Lovecraft]

[Lone Striker]

1 hour ago, Mikey1874 said:

It's quite hard to follow. But the Inquiry know what they are trying to get at.

 

This was one headline from today.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/may/23/paula-vennells-ruled-out-post-office-review-told-would-be-front-page-news

 

The former Post Office boss Paula Vennells killed a review that would have exposed the Horizon IT scandal more than 10 years ago after being told it would make “front-page news” but insisted she was not part of a cover-up.

During a second day of giving evidence at the public inquiry into the scandal, Vennells, who led the Post Office for nine years, said a different decision could have avoided a “lost decade” for persecuted branch operators.

 

Vennells already knew at the time of her decision in July 2013 that Gareth Jenkins, an engineer at Fujitsu who designed the Horizon accounting system, had withheld information from the courts about bugs in the software and was regarded as an “unsafe witness”.

 

She had asked a number of executives in an email why there might not be a full historical review of about 500 cases of post office operators accused of false accounting.

The Post Office’s then director of communications, Mark Davies, messaged Vennells about his concerns that such a move would “fuel the story” beyond the “usual suspects” who were reporting on potentially unsafe convictions.

This shows how pathetic & weak she was.  She was the bloody CEO -  she had the authority to demand some kind of review into any aspect of the scandal, but was easily persuaded not to ..... on the basis of   what might appear in newspapers ?      Alan Bates & the other SPMs    must have been  raging when they heard this.

 

 

[Mikey1874]

The Post Office Offences (Horizon System) Bill has been passed by Parliament.

It means that sub-postmasters will have their convictions quashed tomorrow, Friday, after the bill gets Royal Assent from the King.

The legislation does not, however, cover Scotland, which has a separate legal system.

[joondalupjambo]

Leave the poor woman alone.  She is an Anglican priest and has always, due to that role told the truth.  Shame in those that think otherwise.

[Tommy Brown]

27 minutes ago, joondalupjambo said:

Leave the poor woman alone.  She is an Anglican priest and has always, due to that role told the truth.  Shame in those that think otherwise.

Probably shite at that job too.

Complete charlatan.

 

[Footballfirst]

Vennell's grilling has started with an hour allocated to Mr Henry, then the next hour will be Mr Stein.

[Joey J J Jr Shabadoo]

Has she already lied? Saud she hasn't been employed since leaving tge Post Office.  Wasn't she still employed as a bible basher?

[Hagar the Horrible]

This boy is good, but she is doing her best not to answer anything

 

It was brought up, she cant remember, I never knew, I was not told.

 

She would not answer that she was politically adept,  She ran a government agency, its all political

[Victorian]

6 minutes ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

This boy is good, but she is doing her best not to answer anything

 

It was brought up, she cant remember, I never knew, I was not told.

 

She would not answer that she was politically adept,  She ran a government agency, its all political

 

She's trying her best to 'manage the game'.  Eating up time with asking for questions to be repeated,  slow and prolonged answers.

 

Ed Henry isn't doing a great deal to put any pressure on her.

[Nookie Bear]

19 minutes ago, Joey J J Jr Shabadoo said:

Has she already lied? Saud she hasn't been employed since leaving tge Post Office.  Wasn't she still employed as a bible basher?

 

From the ever reliable Wiki:

 

In February 2019 it was announced that she would step down from her Post Office role, and that month she was appointed as a non-executive board member at the Cabinet Office.^[11] In April that year she took over as the chair of Imperial College Healthcare NHS Trust; she resigned from this role in 2021

 

(Why does that Cabinet office role seem significant??)

[Joey J J Jr Shabadoo]

4 minutes ago, Nookie Bear said:

 

From the ever reliable Wiki:

 

In February 2019 it was announced that she would step down from her Post Office role, and that month she was appointed as a non-executive board member at the Cabinet Office.^[11] In April that year she took over as the chair of Imperial College Healthcare NHS Trust; she resigned from this role in 2021

 

(Why does that Cabinet office role seem significant??)

Alex Thomson door stepped her at her church about a month ago. She was wearing her vicars get up.

 

https://x.com/alextomo/status/1777091632325681648?t=a51mp-Dhv05Af9FMcWBnnQ&s=19

 

 

Edited May 24, 2024 by Joey J J Jr Shabadoo

[Hagar the Horrible]

20 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

She's trying her best to 'manage the game'.  Eating up time with asking for questions to be repeated,  slow and prolonged answers.

 

Ed Henry isn't doing a great deal to put any pressure on her.

I think she is sitting there with her hand stuck in the cookie jar, and chocolate all over her mouth, desperately trying not to incriminate herself.  She is with every answer trying to formulate an answer that in not a blatant lie.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

2 minutes ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

I think she is sitting there with her hand stuck in the cookie jar, and chocolate all over her mouth, desperately trying not to incriminate herself.  She is with every answer trying to formulate an answer that in not a blatant lie.

That Marina Hyde summed it up perfectly in the Guardian.

 

In the UK, the little people go to jail

 

The big people get rewarded with directorships and more money.

 

Vennells will get destroyed in the inquiry report. Her integrity will be in tatters. But she won’t face any punishment and she’ll just fade away into corporate life again.

[That thing you do]

21 hours ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

It’s a recurring theme in these sorts of inquiries - people who are clearly culpable and know fine well what they’ve done going ‘er, not really sure about any of this but then I again, I wouldn’t really know and I’m actually not the person you need to be speaking to. I might have been there but I wasn’t truly involved.”

 

In short, amazing how many senior people in certain organisations were paid big wages in return for no input and no responsibility. Lucky them.

Most corporates that have staff like that in enquiries also have a culture that you do wrong you get fired. I worked for one like that and things paralyzed as people tried to avoid blame, cover mistakes and then don't want responsibility in order to save their jobs.

 

It's toxic.

 

She must have known some of the issues at her level though. Crocodile tears don't hide that.

 

[Victorian]

Poor stuff from Ed Henry imo.  He didn't manage to set any coherent focus on her knowledge and involvement.  Just a series of vague suggestions.  Wyn Williams appears to be keen that the KCs don't become too argumentative and aggressive in the line of questioning.

 

Stein next but probably more of the same.  She's pretty much home free.  She hasn't,  and could not,  repair her own reputation.  But certainly not nailed to a cross in any way.  

 

Another reminder that inquiries can promise much but deliver buttons.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

12 minutes ago, Victorian said:

Poor stuff from Ed Henry imo.  He didn't manage to set any coherent focus on her knowledge and involvement.  Just a series of vague suggestions.  Wyn Williams appears to be keen that the KCs don't become too argumentative and aggressive in the line of questioning.

 

Stein next but probably more of the same.  She's pretty much home free.  She hasn't,  and could not,  repair her own reputation.  But certainly not nailed to a cross in any way.  

 

Another reminder that inquiries can promise much but deliver buttons.

As someone else on here said, not helped by her leaving 30 seconds pauses, feigning confusion, asking to have questions repeated, plugging every answer with remarks about ‘not really sure’ etc.

 

it seems obvious that the legal advice to her has been - act as if you’ve not idea what at least 50 per cent of it is about.

 

You’re right, she’ll be a total pariah after this. But that’s not going to be much comfort to the families 

[frankblack]

24 minutes ago, Victorian said:

Poor stuff from Ed Henry imo.  He didn't manage to set any coherent focus on her knowledge and involvement.  Just a series of vague suggestions.  Wyn Williams appears to be keen that the KCs don't become too argumentative and aggressive in the line of questioning.

 

Stein next but probably more of the same.  She's pretty much home free.  She hasn't,  and could not,  repair her own reputation.  But certainly not nailed to a cross in any way.  

 

Another reminder that inquiries can promise much but deliver buttons.

 

That was never possible here as she can't be compelled to answer as in a criminal trial.  They have all been coached not to implicate themselves and taken a leaf out of Sturgeon's book and played the short-term memory card to avoid answering.

[Joey J J Jr Shabadoo]

 

[Lone Striker]

25 minutes ago, Victorian said:

Poor stuff from Ed Henry imo.  He didn't manage to set any coherent focus on her knowledge and involvement.  Just a series of vague suggestions.  Wyn Williams appears to be keen that the KCs don't become too argumentative and aggressive in the line of questioning.

 

Stein next but probably more of the same.  She's pretty much home free.  She hasn't,  and could not,  repair her own reputation.  But certainly not nailed to a cross in any way.  

 

Another reminder that inquiries can promise much but deliver buttons.

The watching SPM's are probably feeling a bit disappointed with Henry.   We'll see what Stein makes of things.  

Vennells  ought not to have got much sleep these last few nights.    Its probably a few years down, the line, but if  Alan Bates is still up for going ahead with a private prosecution and starts a GoFundMe page,  hopefully a large section of society are still angry enough to contribute.    That said, it shouldn't have to come down to a private prosecution - the police & CPS should be all over this  outrage instead of focusing on  peaceful protestors at marches carrying placards. 

 

 So far,  Jason Beer is in a league of his own when it comes to  firing a barbed humdinger at her & other rogues after some relatively gentle  but pertinent questioning.  

 

 

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

Sounds like she’s already getting pummelled 

[Footballfirst]

When she got emotional after saying that "I loved the Post Office", Mr Stein missed an opportunity to challenge her on that, e.g. He could have asked, "I note that you got emotional when you said 'I loved the Post Office'. Isn't that an example of you being so embedded into the culture of the Post Office, that your 'love' meant that the fate of the SPMRs was just collateral damage in getting to your vision?"

 

He could have followed up with examples of her seeking to control the narrative, comms, misleading MPs, risk of damages etc.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

Getting torn a ****ing new one

 

[WorldChampions1902]

Vennel’s getting absolutely eviscerated makes for wonderful viewing.

[Victorian]

Not sure what people heard but I think she sailed through again.  It's limited to vague and accusatory suggestions.  She'll not be arsed about that.  Nothing much put to her that she had to admit to.

 

Half hour session from counsel for the union.  A bit perverse.

[Hagar the Horrible]

2 hours ago, Footballfirst said:

When she got emotional after saying that "I loved the Post Office", Mr Stein missed an opportunity to challenge her on that, e.g. He could have asked, "I note that you got emotional when you said 'I loved the Post Office'. Isn't that an example of you being so embedded into the culture of the Post Office, that your 'love' meant that the fate of the SPMRs was just collateral damage in getting to your vision?"

 

He could have followed up with examples of her seeking to control the narrative, comms, misleading MPs, risk of damages etc.

I thought the exact same thing, when she gets emotional, that is the time to hit with a killer question, her victims did not get an easy ride in court, especially worse when you are totally innocent

[Footballfirst]

Mr Maloney is doing a fine dismantling job on her values.

Edited May 24, 2024 by Footballfirst

[Hagar the Horrible]

That's it concluded for her at least,  It would be a total waste of money if she does not face criminal charges, and allow her to have to answer to a court.  If justice is not seen to be done, this and the next enquiry will have more and more CEO types just use the "I cant Remember" defence.

[Cade]

"I can't remember" isn't much of defence when there are thousands of pages of emails and other evidence right there in black and white.

Whether or not you remember committing a crime doesn't matter.

The evidence points to a cover-up or at the very least a criminal amount of incompetence (possibly adding up to corporate manslaughter)

[Lone Striker]

2 hours ago, Footballfirst said:

When she got emotional after saying that "I loved the Post Office", Mr Stein missed an opportunity to challenge her on that, e.g. He could have asked, "I note that you got emotional when you said 'I loved the Post Office'. Isn't that an example of you being so embedded into the culture of the Post Office, that your 'love' meant that the fate of the SPMRs was just collateral damage in getting to your vision?"

 

He could have followed up with examples of her seeking to control the narrative, comms, misleading MPs, risk of damages etc.

Totally agree, FF.   He should have done pretty much what you suggest, and kept following through on it.  Her tears did the trick for her on that occasion.     

 

Hiding behind   "I  loved the Post Office and worked as hard as I could....."  is totally irrelevant.    Same with hiding behind    "I'm not an IT expert or legal expert...." 

 

As I said earlier, she's shown herself to be weak and unable to provide strong leadership in this crisis - which she possibly  didn't even recognise  as a crisis.    Any strong CEO worth his/her salt, on being made aware of the growing list of prosecutions of SPMs who'd suddenly started embezzling money,  would have had the sense and curiosity to shout   "STOP - something very odd might be going on here. We urgently need to understand the details of why and how".   Then get the investigators to report directly to senior management & the CEO with actual evidence from their investigation.

 

I found the claim by  Vennells that she  wasn't made aware for several years that POL could bring their own prosecutions astonishing (if true).  What sort of company has an induction process for new senior execs which OMITS to mention something as unusual and important as that ?

 

 

[Victorian]

36 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

Mr Maloney is doing a fine dismantling job on her values.

 

Maloney was excellent.  The 'good cop' turned 'mild mannered assassin'.   Kept a juicy email to the end.  Demonstrated her as a right nasty piece of work.

 

I hope Jo Hamilton rests her eyes in a dark room because they rarely left the sight of Vennells.  

[WorldChampions1902]

1 hour ago, Lone Striker said:

I found the claim by  Vennells that she  wasn't made aware for several years that POL could bring their own prosecutions astonishing (if true).  What sort of company has an induction process for new senior execs which OMITS to mention something as unusual and important as that ?

It was demonstrated repeatedly during her testimony, that Vennels kept a close eye on the media, in order to aggressively counter any criticisms of the much-maligned Horizon IT system. So how the hell is it possible to follow all these cases and the growing voices of the SubPost Masters lobbying and yet supposedly be unaware the POL was the one doing their own investigations and prosecutions?

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

She’s a lying *****

[Malinga the Swinga]

14 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

She’s a lying *****

Of course she is, that's how she got the position in first place. You don't get to the top by being honest and a people person. You get there by being ruthless and by being a narcissist.

[Malinga the Swinga]

4 hours ago, Footballfirst said:

When she got emotional after saying that "I loved the Post Office", Mr Stein missed an opportunity to challenge her on that, e.g. He could have asked, "I note that you got emotional when you said 'I loved the Post Office'. Isn't that an example of you being so embedded into the culture of the Post Office, that your 'love' meant that the fate of the SPMRs was just collateral damage in getting to your vision?"

 

He could have followed up with examples of her seeking to control the narrative, comms, misleading MPs, risk of damages etc.

Why don't you write to him and let him know where he went wrong. After all, he's only a KC with years of experience in matters like this whereas you are an expert on everything.

[Footballfirst]

Just now, Malinga the Swinga said:

Why don't you write to him and let him know where he went wrong. After all, he's only a KC with years of experience in matters like this whereas you are an expert on everything.

Too late, now that she has finished her evidence, but thanks for the recognition.

😇 

[Victorian]

It's possible to make opinion based observations that could be described as critical without suggesting you are better skilled and qualified,  etc.

 

Were you ever critical of qualified,  professional people during,  for example,  the pandemic?

 

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

This inquiry is ultimately a waste of time.  There won’t be a prosecution at the end of it 

[Victorian]

Just now, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

This inquiry is ultimately a waste of time.  There won’t be a prosecution at the end of it 

 

Not arising from it anyway.  Could happen separately.  I'm more doubtful now because the investigatory resources that would need to go into it would be huge.  Public interest might be a factor.

 

Jenkins wilĺ get prosecuted.  Quite a few lawyers likely to be struck off.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

4 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

Not arising from it anyway.  Could happen separately.  I'm more doubtful now because the investigatory resources that would need to go into it would be huge.  Public interest might be a factor.

 

Jenkins wilĺ get prosecuted.  Quite a few lawyers likely to be struck off.

hopefully the stress kills a few of them 

[WorldChampions1902]

I noticed that a ‘material witness”, whom the Inquiry have tried to track down, has ‘gone missing’. Vennels said today she last spoke to him in November, but he is now an officer in the Para Regiment and is now “off-grid”.
 

Strange.

[Mikey1874]

Picture of the day as today's evidence just ended

 

 

[JWL]

Keir Starmer should just come out and say that one of the first things a Labour government will do, is ensure all senior executives at the PO will be arrested and held on corruption charges with prosecutions to follow. He could then light a cigar and put his feet up for the next 6 weeks. (Yeah, I know, not quite as easy as that and never going to happen but what a feckin statement it would be)!!!!

[Victorian]

I think,  maybe,  at one point when the little people were groaning at her answers,  she appeared to turn and give them a glare,  only to realise that probably wasn't the best idea ever.