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Jamhammer

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Excellent programme well put together. Good lesson for all managers about focus drive and determination. He made big calls and good most right and I now understand his outburst after beating Rangers in cup. Interested in his approach and commitment to youth via scouting and this is something we could and should adopt which would be win win re talent then sales. 

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The Treasurer
11 hours ago, Smithee said:

Because they're wankers, but Leicester proved it is possible, even once in a blue moon.

If that is a reason for a team not to win the league, how come Citeh and the scousers have got it sewn up between them. 

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Malinga the Swinga

Successful manager but not someone who was ever likeable.

Trophy laden and dominated domestic game, playing attacking football.

Also a bully, intimidating officials and players, who knew his time was up and left a mess behind him that is proving poisoned chalice for those following.

Now lingers at Old Trafford on match days like a had smell.

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AlimOzturk

Give us a manager the quality of Alex Ferguson and we might stand a chance. As it is, they have more money, better players, better coaches, better facilities, the referee decisions and the SFA in their pocket. 
 

What we have and always will have over they ***** is a better more loyal fan base. When we win a trophy we bask in tbe occasion. We Treasure it. When they win, it’s another day at the office. 
 

I wouldn’t trade what we have for what they have. Ever. 

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Bono/Glint, is a example of what a organised team can do , they skelped tik , 5/1 o/a this year. Maybe someone could give a analysis closer to the ♥️ 😎👍

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Bazzas right boot
57 minutes ago, Nookie Bear said:


Around that time, hibs signed Steve Archibald directly from Barca ffs

 

They are now trying to entice Cole Stockton back north. 

 

Aye  and Robbo knocked back Arsenal, Notts Forrest and Leeds. 

 

Gary McKay also iirc knocked back man utd. 

 

Different era, may as well compare the 1900's to now. 

 

Things can happen, but to say or hint  the market and Bosman have only had a small effect on things changing is a bit daft. 

 

Even Ferguson himself would have left Aberdeen after one successful season. He wouldn't have been there as long as he was. 

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Telford_jambo123

If Neil Doncaster and the rest of his corrupt cronies were around back then Aberdeen wouldn’t of been allowed to shattered the glass ceiling like they did 

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Cambo_Jambo
12 hours ago, Jamhammer said:

Personally I think it would take the stars aligning and  period where more than one team can take points off them

 

Us

Dons

Dundee Utd or someone else

 

a la 86

 

Could it happen again 

 

 

I think it did happen but Aberdeen missed their shot. The year Deila was at Celtic and Rangers were in the seaside leagues, there was a real opportunity for Aberdeen.

 

Now that's gone, hard to see both Celtic and Rangers having 'rebuilding' seasons at the same time.

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SectionDJambo

There's no doubt that Ferguson did a fantastic job at Aberdeen. Winning a major European trophy with a club of the moderate resources of Aberdeen, even with the less games required back then, was a feat probably unrivalled by any Scottish manager. Only Jim McLean could have bettered it had Dundee United not come up against a bent referee against Roma.

However, his domestic success was achieved at a time when Celtic and Rangers were both a shambles. When Souness and the big money arrived in 1986, Ferguson never stayed long enough to challenge it. He was off to Manchester United before the season really got going. 

We'll never know what he might have achieved with Hearts either, if the stories were correct about Wallace having him lined up for us when his, seemingly inevitable, sacking from Manchester United happened.

One thing that I believe is the main reason for his great reputation as a manager is how he managed to switch from ruling by fear, as most successful managers did before Bosman, to successfully managing great players with their new powers of freedom of contract. Whilst many very good managers struggled to maintain their authority and respect at big clubs, Ferguson knew how to keep great players with him and when to get rid of the agitators who could disrupt the togetherness of his team.

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2 hours ago, SectionDJambo said:

There's no doubt that Ferguson did a fantastic job at Aberdeen. Winning a major European trophy with a club of the moderate resources of Aberdeen, even with the less games required back then, was a feat probably unrivalled by any Scottish manager. Only Jim McLean could have bettered it had Dundee United not come up against a bent referee against Roma.

However, his domestic success was achieved at a time when Celtic and Rangers were both a shambles. When Souness and the big money arrived in 1986, Ferguson never stayed long enough to challenge it. He was off to Manchester United before the season really got going. 

We'll never know what he might have achieved with Hearts either, if the stories were correct about Wallace having him lined up for us when his, seemingly inevitable, sacking from Manchester United happened.

One thing that I believe is the main reason for his great reputation as a manager is how he managed to switch from ruling by fear, as most successful managers did before Bosman, to successfully managing great players with their new powers of freedom of contract. Whilst many very good managers struggled to maintain their authority and respect at big clubs, Ferguson knew how to keep great players with him and when to get rid of the agitators who could disrupt the togetherness of his team.

Very well put

Its a shame we just fell short in 86

 

Id never really considered the impact of Bosman in the equation so I’m glad I posted TBH

 

I really enjoyed the documentary and, even though I thought I knew a lot about him I had no idea about how he was treated at Rangers and why.

I don’t know if that’s been airbrushed in other docs 

 

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SectionDJambo
3 minutes ago, Jamhammer said:

Very well put

Its a shame we just fell short in 86

 

Id never really considered the impact of Bosman in the equation so I’m glad I posted TBH

 

I really enjoyed the documentary and, even though I thought I knew a lot about him I had no idea about how he was treated at Rangers and why.

I don’t know if that’s been airbrushed in other docs 

 

I didn’t see the documentary, but I can imagine the reason for any hostility from management when he was at Ibrox. They had a good player called Graham Fyfe who got the same treatment for a similar reason. Ridiculous that the attitude from Rangers was stretched to partners.

If I remember correctly, both Ferguson and McLean turned down the Rangers job because they don’t want any part of the player signing policy.

It was said that when Jock Stein was at Celtic, he would look for good, young Protestant footballers first, because he knew that Rangers wouldn’t be interested in the catholic ones. He could take his time assessing them. Probably how he signed Kenny Dalglish who was said to be from a Rangers supporting family.

Souness changed all that nonsense when he signed Maurice Johnston.

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Nookie Bear
14 minutes ago, Jamhammer said:

Very well put

Its a shame we just fell short in 86

 

Id never really considered the impact of Bosman in the equation so I’m glad I posted TBH

 

I really enjoyed the documentary and, even though I thought I knew a lot about him I had no idea about how he was treated at Rangers and why.

I don’t know if that’s been airbrushed in other docs 

 


He certainly talks about it in his autobiography. Was raging apparently. 

 

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2 minutes ago, Nookie Bear said:


He certainly talks about it in his autobiography. Was raging apparently. 

 

He looked it in the show

Idiocy innit

”Did you get married in a chapel”?

”No, a registry office”

”That’s okay then”

 

in the 20th Century!!!!

 

 

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7 minutes ago, SectionDJambo said:

I didn’t see the documentary, but I can imagine the reason for any hostility from management when he was at Ibrox. They had a good player called Graham Fyfe who got the same treatment for a similar reason. Ridiculous that the attitude from Rangers was stretched to partners.

If I remember correctly, both Ferguson and McLean turned down the Rangers job because they don’t want any part of the player signing policy.

It was said that when Jock Stein was at Celtic, he would look for good, young Protestant footballers first, because he knew that Rangers wouldn’t be interested in the catholic ones. He could take his time assessing them. Probably how he signed Kenny Dalglish who was said to be from a Rangers supporting family.

Souness changed all that nonsense when he signed Maurice Johnston.

Shame the fans haven’t got the message 😀

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Perth to Paisley

May be a urban myth but ...

 

One day after training Hugh Burns was sitting with his foot up on a coffee table. Souness told him to move his feet as it was behaviour unbecoming of a Rangers player, Burns allegedly replied saying something along the lines of 'You can talk, you married a Catholic!'

 

Burns was immediately loaned to Hamilton then transferred to Hearts soon after.

There were also stories about his nonsense when he was here (for the one season) as well.

 

Hopefully none of the above is true.

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Unknown user
57 minutes ago, Perth to Paisley said:

May be a urban myth but ...

 

One day after training Hugh Burns was sitting with his foot up on a coffee table. Souness told him to move his feet as it was behaviour unbecoming of a Rangers player, Burns allegedly replied saying something along the lines of 'You can talk, you married a Catholic!'

 

Burns was immediately loaned to Hamilton then transferred to Hearts soon after.

There were also stories about his nonsense when he was here (for the one season) as well.

 

Hopefully none of the above is true.

 

A prick, I'm sure we've all heard of how he was with JC.

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FFS 

 

I saw this thread and thought something had happened to my wee taxi driver mate 

 

Thank god 😮🙂

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Bindy Badgy
20 hours ago, Smithee said:

Because they're wankers, but Leicester proved it is possible, even once in a blue moon.

 

Leicester's owners are billionaires. They're a smaller club historically but, they have the financial clout to get good players.

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Unknown user
18 minutes ago, Bindy Badgy said:

 

Leicester's owners are billionaires. They're a smaller club historically but, they have the financial clout to get good players.

 

True, but it's all about context. They're also at the next level down from the top dogs in their league, their best players get picked off by the big boys too.

They've never come close to doing it before or since, they just had that one season where everything went their way.

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1 hour ago, Smithee said:

 

True, but it's all about context. They're also at the next level down from the top dogs in their league, their best players get picked off by the big boys too.

They've never come close to doing it before or since, they just had that one season where everything went their way.

 

Whilst this is correct, it's also worth illustrating just how big the gap is in Scotland, the proportionate difference is far far greater.

 

Based on published data from season 2019/20, Liverpool's wage budget was 1.65 X that of Leicester. Comparing Celtic to for example, Motherwell, it's 15x.

 

https://youtu.be/LUpmblcJy3s

 

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Unknown user
58 minutes ago, Martin_T said:

 

Whilst this is correct, it's also worth illustrating just how big the gap is in Scotland, the proportionate difference is far far greater.

 

Based on published data from season 2019/20, Liverpool's wage budget was 1.65 X that of Leicester. Comparing Celtic to for example, Motherwell, it's 15x.

 

https://youtu.be/LUpmblcJy3s

 

True again, but it's still possible and we're in a better position than most to do it

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The difference isn’t just the quality of player the old firm can buy it’s the volume of quality player they can buy. It normally takes them about 15 games to start opening a gap, by 25 the gap widens as even with suspensions and injuries they can cope, we can’t unfortunately and that’s a real difference maker. To compete with them we’d need to be incredibly lucky either with injuries and suspensions or have a hugely talented youth set up who could fill gaps without us having to spend money we don’t have.

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11 hours ago, Smithee said:

True again, but it's still possible and we're in a better position than most to do it

 

I agree we are currently best placed to get closer, but actually winning the league would be utterly remarkable.

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Unknown user
13 minutes ago, Martin_T said:

 

I agree we are currently best placed to get closer, but actually winning the league would be utterly remarkable.

 

Ken, imagine the scenes

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I get all the comments about how it's a near impossibility to outrun the OF over a season but one thing that jumps out at me from the documentary.  Having a manager like Fergie would be a great starter for ten.  

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Nookie Bear

Back of a fag packet calculations but, even if we add our fan contributions direct to our salaries we are sitting around a quarter of the average old firm salary.

 

An equivalent in England would be Man City being challenged for the title by the likes of Brighton and Fulham.

 

Leicester pay around 40% of what man City are doing so that would be increasing our salaries by about £3m...and then hope for a miralce.

By the looks of it, Aberdeen winning the league back in the day was about as impressive as Chelsea winning the EPL now.

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The Old Tolbooth
On 05/06/2022 at 09:18, Malinga the Swinga said:

Successful manager but not someone who was ever likeable.

Trophy laden and dominated domestic game, playing attacking football.

Also a bully, intimidating officials and players, who knew his time was up and left a mess behind him that is proving poisoned chalice for those following.

Now lingers at Old Trafford on match days like a had smell.

 

You make him sound like a version of our very own Pieman :lol: 

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On 05/06/2022 at 09:18, Malinga the Swinga said:

Successful manager but not someone who was ever likeable.

Trophy laden and dominated domestic game, playing attacking football.

Also a bully, intimidating officials and players, who knew his time was up and left a mess behind him that is proving poisoned chalice for those following.

Now lingers at Old Trafford on match days like a had smell.

 

Bullcr@p - all great managers have those attributes - they are needed to excel and win at the top level.

 

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Bindy Badgy
13 hours ago, Rudy T said:

The difference isn’t just the quality of player the old firm can buy it’s the volume of quality player they can buy. It normally takes them about 15 games to start opening a gap, by 25 the gap widens as even with suspensions and injuries they can cope, we can’t unfortunately and that’s a real difference maker. To compete with them we’d need to be incredibly lucky either with injuries and suspensions or have a hugely talented youth set up who could fill gaps without us having to spend money we don’t have.

 

You see a similar thing in international tournaments where smaller countries, like Croatia (1998) and Uruguay (2010), tend to fall away at the semi-final. Their starting 11 can match anyone but, injuries and suspensions catch up with them. Croatia bucked this trend at the last World Cup. My memory is a bit hazy but, I can't remember them having any big players miss out on any matches.

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McGlynn The Money
42 minutes ago, briever said:

 

Bullcr@p - all great managers have those attributes - they are needed to excel and win at the top level.

 

 

Not at all. Look at someone like Paulo Sergio, he didn't seem to try to rule with fear or get involved with officials.

 

A more recent example someone like Ancelotti. Everyone says his success is because the players live him and he treats them like adults, and you don't see him shouting and bawling at refs.

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Nookie Bear
14 hours ago, Rudy T said:

The difference isn’t just the quality of player the old firm can buy it’s the volume of quality player they can buy. It normally takes them about 15 games to start opening a gap, by 25 the gap widens as even with suspensions and injuries they can cope, we can’t unfortunately and that’s a real difference maker. To compete with them we’d need to be incredibly lucky either with injuries and suspensions or have a hugely talented youth set up who could fill gaps without us having to spend money we don’t have.

 

I expect they also have less suspensions due to the reluctance of referees to impose discipline fairly. And let's face it, each old firm should see around a dozen bookings but these games are refereed differently, apparently.

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Rogue Daddy
56 minutes ago, Nookie Bear said:

 

I expect they also have less suspensions due to the reluctance of referees to impose discipline fairly. And let's face it, each old firm should see around a dozen bookings but these games are refereed differently, apparently.

Ain't that the truth...

 

Fouls Per Yellow card, straight from the SPFL's website.

 

 

FOULSPERYELLOW.jpg

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The Hogfather

So all we need to do is hire the greatest manager in football history? Seems simple enough. 

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John Findlay
2 hours ago, Nookie Bear said:

 

I expect they also have less suspensions due to the reluctance of referees to impose discipline fairly. And let's face it, each old firm should see around a dozen bookings but these games are refereed differently, apparently.

As per Willie Collum in the cup final in his reluctance to book James Tavanier.

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1 hour ago, The Hogfather said:

So all we need to do is hire the greatest manager in football history? Seems simple enough. 

Or find one on the way to becoming one. Like Aberdeen did

 

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Watt-Zeefuik

The difference in income between the OF and us is not set in stone. It comes generally from three places: their larger stadiums and their attendances, Europe, and the wider glory-hunting following they have around Scotland.

 

The stadium and attendances we're not going to change any time soon. Maybe one day we'll have a 30k stadium and fill it regularly but we've done that to death in the other threads. Mark it off for the next 10-15 years at the very least.

 

The glory hunting support comes from a history of winning. To change that, we'd just have to win more and win consistently. Tough nut to overcome.

 

What's changing is Europe. Celtic and Ranger routinely pad their budgets with $10-30M from Europe, depending on how they do. That's the difference between a Leicester-to-Man City sized gap and the one that we face. Because of the structure of European competitions and Scotland's place in the pecking order, they've generally had a bit of a glide path to group stages while everyone else has had to slog through extremely difficult qualifiers. (FFS we had Tottenham and Liverpool in our way two years running.)

 

The recovery of Scotland's coefficient along with the UECL changes that. Yes, the coefficient increase means that they'll get bigger wins too, but they face a revenue gap of their own. They have to get their managers and their signings perfect in order to do more than get third or fourth in the UCL. Rangers had a brilliant run in the UEL of course but how regularly can they count on beating Dortmond?

 

A few years and some decent results and we can start getting a few TV commentators to start waxing poetic about "European nights at Tynecastle" and we'll start to have the mixed blessing of glory hunters among our support too. And then the landscape starts to shift back in our favor.

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On 05/06/2022 at 09:55, SectionDJambo said:

There's no doubt that Ferguson did a fantastic job at Aberdeen. Winning a major European trophy with a club of the moderate resources of Aberdeen, even with the less games required back then, was a feat probably unrivalled by any Scottish manager. Only Jim McLean could have bettered it had Dundee United not come up against a bent referee against Roma.

However, his domestic success was achieved at a time when Celtic and Rangers were both a shambles. When Souness and the big money arrived in 1986, Ferguson never stayed long enough to challenge it. He was off to Manchester United before the season really got going. 

We'll never know what he might have achieved with Hearts either, if the stories were correct about Wallace having him lined up for us when his, seemingly inevitable, sacking from Manchester United happened.

One thing that I believe is the main reason for his great reputation as a manager is how he managed to switch from ruling by fear, as most successful managers did before Bosman, to successfully managing great players with their new powers of freedom of contract. Whilst many very good managers struggled to maintain their authority and respect at big clubs, Ferguson knew how to keep great players with him and when to get rid of the agitators who could disrupt the togetherness of his team.

Yep very few managers, if any, would have known how to handle Cantona and ultimately get the best of him.  

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The difference in wages paid in the 80s between the old firm and the rest of the league was nothing like it is now.  We signed Dave McPherson from Rangers and then he went back to Rangers and then back to us again all the time fitting into our wage structure.  We've just lost Souttar to Rangers and his wages will now be £10k-£20k which means there's no way he'll come back to Hearts as we couldn't afford him.

 

I do live in hope that we can do a Leicester and challenge and win the league, however, if we ever were to do that, I know it'd be a one season wonder as our team would then get decimated similar to Leicester who lost Kante, Drinkwater, Mahrez etc.  

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On 05/06/2022 at 06:06, ToadKiller Dog said:

We would need both uglies to have poor seasons at the same time ,realistically that's not likely to happen. Plus the gfa whistler's would have their input.

I think we can cut the points gap a bit and who knows the odd poor season from one if them could see us take a 2nd place .

Truthfully finance wise they are to big for our league but too backward for any major league .

 

 

That's the crux of it, when Aberdeen won the league in 85 Rangers only won in 7 out of 18 home games and 6 of 18 away, Celtic were 12/18 at home and 10/18 away 

 

We're a long way away from both the OF failing to win more than a third of the games they play in the league

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Nookie Bear
22 minutes ago, TurboT said:

The difference in wages paid in the 80s between the old firm and the rest of the league was nothing like it is now.  We signed Dave McPherson from Rangers and then he went back to Rangers and then back to us again all the time fitting into our wage structure.  We've just lost Souttar to Rangers and his wages will now be £10k-£20k which means there's no way he'll come back to Hearts as we couldn't afford him.

 

I do live in hope that we can do a Leicester and challenge and win the league, however, if we ever were to do that, I know it'd be a one season wonder as our team would then get decimated similar to Leicester who lost Kante, Drinkwater, Mahrez etc.  

 

That leicester team was decimated to an extent but they agreed a new deal with Vardy and even Mahrez stayed on for two more season. They also got around £130m in fees for them

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42 minutes ago, Nookie Bear said:

 

That leicester team was decimated to an extent but they agreed a new deal with Vardy and even Mahrez stayed on for two more season. They also got around £130m in fees for them

All true, but Leicester haven't been close to challenging for the title since.  Flirted with the top 4 but the best they've done is a 5th place finish.

 

The year they won it, all the other big teams had a 'poor' season and we'd need the old firm to have a poor season and we'd need to have an exceptional season for us to win the league. 

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Nookie Bear
16 minutes ago, TurboT said:

All true, but Leicester haven't been close to challenging for the title since.  Flirted with the top 4 but the best they've done is a 5th place finish.

 

The year they won it, all the other big teams had a 'poor' season and we'd need the old firm to have a poor season and we'd need to have an exceptional season for us to win the league. 

 

absolutely.

 

They also hit a sweet spot in terms of their recruitment - Vardy, Kante and Mahrez were cheap as we know but also the likes of Albrighton, Schmeichel, Huth, Morgan and Drinkwater were relatively cheap as well.

 

It can be done but it's still fantasy stuff and i don;t believe any manager should be expected to repeat it.

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BangkokHearts
On 05/06/2022 at 03:30, Smithee said:

Because they're wankers, but Leicester proved it is possible, even once in a blue moon.

Leicester were owned by a Thai multi-billionaire, who pumped millions into the club for them to challenge.

 

Totally different kettle of fish.

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Unknown user
3 hours ago, BangkokHearts said:

Leicester were owned by a Thai multi-billionaire, who pumped millions into the club for them to challenge.

 

Totally different kettle of fish.

They were still a level below the big boys in their league.

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