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Against the OF this century


hearts00

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I wanted to check the stats on how we have faired vs. the OF this century. We all know it is grim reading but it is good to have the exact numbers. 
 

And of course it provides the context for Saturday’s defeat. 
 

The record since season 2000/01 against Celtic and Rangers is: 

 

Total games played = 163

 

Total wins = 26

 

Total win % = 16

 

Home wins = 18 out of 81. 22%. 
 

Away wins (includes Hampden) 8 out of 82. 9.75%. 
 

It of course, as we know, shows the gulf between the OF and the rest. 
 

The context is that when we go to Hampden to play the OF, history tells us we will only win 1 out of 10 matches! 

Edited by hearts00
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I wonder how that would compare with Hibs and Aberdeen's record against them.  Similar I wound think.

 

We all know that throughout our 150 years, the OF have been dominant for the vast majority of it.  They will continue to be unless somethig drastic happens to change it.

 

I would love them to join some kind of euro league to give us a competitive competition.

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HeartsandonlyHearts

Until the club owners all grow a pair then nothing will change.

They already have the fan base

They already get the most prize money

They already get the most TV money

They already get the official calls

They already have the association backing

They already own the league voting rights

As long as other clubs keep taking their hand outs then we’re where we’ll be forever.

Sad state of affairs.

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9 hours ago, HeartsandonlyHearts said:

Until the club owners all grow a pair then nothing will change.

They already have the fan base

They already get the most prize money

They already get the most TV money

They already get the official calls

They already have the association backing

They already own the league voting rights

As long as other clubs keep taking their hand outs then we’re where we’ll be forever.

Sad state of affairs.


I think that is very harsh. 
 

It is simply a function of the relative size of the clubs. In the aabsence of a billionaire benefactor (a dangerous route) what are we meant to do?

 

I reckon to have a chance of competing we would need to get the wage bill to £20m. Not sure how that can happen, although we can maybe get it up to £12m ish. 
 

Also we’ve spent over £300k like twice this century on a transfer and once was with laundered Russian money. 

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9 hours ago, Kiwidoug said:

I wonder how that would compare with Hibs and Aberdeen's record against them.  Similar I wound think.

 

We all know that throughout our 150 years, the OF have been dominant for the vast majority of it.  They will continue to be unless somethig drastic happens to change it.

 

I would love them to join some kind of euro league to give us a competitive competition.

Aberdeen probably have a much worse record. Hibs tend to do well against Rangers but not against Celtic, so might be similar to us overall.

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kingantti1874
9 hours ago, HeartsandonlyHearts said:

Until the club owners all grow a pair then nothing will change.

They already have the fan base

They already get the most prize money

They already get the most TV money

They already get the official calls

They already have the association backing

They already own the league voting rights

As long as other clubs keep taking their hand outs then we’re where we’ll be forever.

Sad state of affairs.


I don’t know what you mean here! What do you suggest we do?

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Rick James
9 hours ago, Kiwidoug said:

I wonder how that would compare with Hibs and Aberdeen's record against them.  Similar I wound think.

 

We all know that throughout our 150 years, the OF have been dominant for the vast majority of it.  They will continue to be unless somethig drastic happens to change it.

 

I would love them to join some kind of euro league to give us a competitive competition.

Aberdeen have won 9 out of 83 which is very close to our 8 out of 82. They've won 5 out of 47 vs Celtic, and 4 out of 36 vs Rangers.

 

Hibs have the best record out of the 3 of us in this timeframe, 12 (13 if you include the LC semi penalty shootout) wins in 83. They've only won twice vs Celtic in 37 meetings but against Rangers they've won 10 out of 43 (11 if you include said penalty win). Their record at Ibrox has been brilliant in recent years compared to most other teams.

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maroonsgotop
10 hours ago, hearts00 said:

I wanted to check the stats on how we have faired vs. the OF this century. We all know it is grim reading but it is good to have the exact numbers. 
 

And of course it provides the context for Saturday’s defeat. 
 

The record since season 2000/01 against Celtic and Rangers is: 

 

Total games played = 163

 

Total wins = 26

 

Total win % = 16

 

Home wins = 18 out of 81. 22%. 
 

Away wins (includes Hampden) 8 out of 82. 9.75%. 
 

It of course, as we know, shows the gulf between the OF and the rest. 
 

The context is that when we go to Hampden to play the OF, history tells us we will only win 1 out of 10 matches! 

Pretty much how the bookies saw it. They saw Sevco at 12 times more likely to win it. 1/4 them vs 3/1 for us.

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8 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

I've always wondered when the last time a team won a cup beating both OF on the way...?

We done it in 1956 if your counting the Final and not previous rounds.

Can't think off the top of my head if what you ask has been achieved. 

Edited by dannymack
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The Treasurer

We've played the arse cheeks 6 times in the Weeg this season, three against each. 

We had two heavy defeats, 4-1 & 5-0, but on both occasions we were well below full strength. 

Against sevco we have had two draws over 90 minutes. 

Against sellik were beaten by only one goal twice, one of which should have been disallowed. 

Not a fantastic record, but certainly a big improvement on recent years and suggests that we are not as far away from them as some seem to think 

 

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Barry Radge

Totally irrelevant post because…

1   There is no OF. OF died in 2012 when Rangers died. Celtic and Sevco aren’t the Old Firm.

 

2. By adding the total games played against Rangers and Sevco as 1 total, you are giving credence to the media lies which try and claim the late Rangers FC and Sevco are the same club.

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vegas-voss

All it shows is the gulf between the sides.We will be no worse than Aberdeen , Hibs and Dundee Utd who are regarded as the other bigger teams outside the Old Firm.

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HeartsandonlyHearts
1 hour ago, kingantti1874 said:


I don’t know what you mean here! What do you suggest we do?

I guess in obviously a poorly worded way Im asking for the other clubs to change everything about the way Scottish football is run. Two clubs basically being the spokesperson for all other clubs cannot in any business be fair. Not changing it up in 2012 probably means that ship has sailed.

As for our association? We need to realize that they’re there only to keep the two butt cheeks happy. Other teams are just scheduling fodder. The Vlad years showed them up for exactly what they are. Puppets.

The religious bigotry being allowed to continue weekly should be an embarrassment to the whole country. It’s laughed off as banter. Now I’m just ranting.

Sorry. Scottish football gets me mad.

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Bazzas right boot

It's shite. 

 

Aberdeen, when rangers were rising from the ashes found out the Hard way that it does not matter how Good you are v the rest, ultimately v the OF, they tend to cock block you. 

 

We could have 3 or 4 good seasons but hit a brick wall in the way of the OF every time. 

 

This year the dumped is out in both cups and ended our second long unbeaten run. 

 

You hope to beat them in a big game, but it is generally hope, nothing else. 

 

It's shite. Utterly depressing. 

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6 hours ago, Locky said:

Aberdeen have won 9 out of 83 which is very close to our 8 out of 82. They've won 5 out of 47 vs Celtic, and 4 out of 36 vs Rangers.

 

Hibs have the best record out of the 3 of us in this timeframe, 12 (13 if you include the LC semi penalty shootout) wins in 83. They've only won twice vs Celtic in 37 meetings but against Rangers they've won 10 out of 43 (11 if you include said penalty win). Their record at Ibrox has been brilliant in recent years compared to most other teams.

Thanks for the stats. 

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6 hours ago, Spellczech said:

I've always wondered when the last time a team won a cup beating both OF on the way...?

2020 was very nearly that year. 

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Never gona change until they **** off. Which hopefully comes sooner rather than later.
 

Would love to see them both floundering in the EPL, scrambling to avoid relegation. Whilst we become the first Scottish team to get to 10iar.

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indianajones

They just need to disappear and leave the rest of Scotland to it. 

 

Would be a cracking league without those two parasites. 

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7 hours ago, amadjambo said:

Aberdeen probably have a much worse record. Hibs tend to do well against Rangers but not against Celtic, so might be similar to us overall.

Hibs have had plenty of decent results against Celtic in the last few years. 

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gorgie rd eh11
25 minutes ago, Sir PH said:

Hibs have had plenty of decent results against Celtic in the last few years. 

 

 

Have they? when was the last time they beat them?

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Rick James
9 hours ago, Spellczech said:

I've always wondered when the last time a team won a cup beating both OF on the way...?

Aberdeen were the last team to win the Scottish Cup beating both on the way in 1983. Not sure about the League Cup although I'll never forget when Hibs could've done just that in 2004. :rofl: 

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The biggest problem in Scotland is teams outwith the arse cheeks tend to see winning a cup as climbing Everest, like the only route after is downward. 

Look at StJohnstone as the latest example.

You need someone else to make that next step, win a cup and come back again for the season or 2 afterwards and keep building from there.

 

 

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Luckies1874
1 hour ago, Locky said:

Aberdeen were the last team to win the Scottish Cup beating both on the way in 1983. Not sure about the League Cup although I'll never forget when Hibs could've done just that in 2004. :rofl: 

 

In the Scottish Cup Aberdeen actually did it in consecutive seasons, 81-82 and 82-83. Before that it was us in 1955-56. So 3 times in the last 65 years.

 

In the League Cup Aberdeen again did it twice 76-77, 89-90 and Hibs managed it in 72-73. That's it back to the 50's when the front was very different. 

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Smoked-Glass
4 hours ago, indianajones said:

They just need to disappear and leave the rest of Scotland to it. 

 

Would be a cracking league without those two parasites. 

Actually it wouldn't.

 

Our league would be like the Irish or Welsh, as in non famous.

 

 

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DalryJambo
23 hours ago, HeartsandonlyHearts said:

Until the club owners all grow a pair then nothing will change.

They already have the fan base

They already get the most prize money

They already get the most TV money

They already get the official calls

They already have the association backing

They already own the league voting rights

As long as other clubs keep taking their hand outs then we’re where we’ll be forever.

Sad state of affairs.

 

So apart from those 6 things that are completely out of the control of the non-old firm club owners (although maybe 6 was at one point, so maybe I should only argue 5 of the points) all the clubs are on a level playing field and the difference between success and failure is merely being bold and 'growing a pair'. 

 

More fans means more money, more money means better players, better players means more victories, more victories means more trophies, more trophies means more power, more power means control, more control means more money, more money means better players.  Times this by 100 years and its no surprise these 2 clubs are so far ahead.

 

It makes me sick, but that's where we are in Scottish football.

 

If you said to the old firm that over the next 20 years Celtic would win 7 titles, Rangers would win 7 titles and the rest would be shared between Hearts, hibs, Aberdeen etc and the result of this would be a x2 or x3 increase in the amount of money coming into the Scottish game due to increased  broadcasting/advertising revenues and increased European prize money They would turn you down to maintain the status quo. 

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12 minutes ago, DalryJambo said:

 

So apart from those 6 things that are completely out of the control of the non-old firm club owners (although maybe 6 was at one point, so maybe I should only argue 5 of the points) all the clubs are on a level playing field and the difference between success and failure is merely being bold and 'growing a pair'. 

 

More fans means more money, more money means better players, better players means more victories, more victories means more trophies, more trophies means more power, more power means control, more control means more money, more money means better players.  Times this by 100 years and its no surprise these 2 clubs are so far ahead.

 

It makes me sick, but that's where we are in Scottish football.

 

If you said to the old firm that over the next 20 years Celtic would win 7 titles, Rangers would win 7 titles and the rest would be shared between Hearts, hibs, Aberdeen etc and the result of this would be a x2 or x3 increase in the amount of money coming into the Scottish game due to increased  broadcasting/advertising revenues and increased European prize money They would turn you down to maintain the status quo. 


The last part is certainly true. Everything they do domestically is geared to maintaining their stranglehold on Scottish football. If any other club shows any sign of challenging, they break it up by offering their key players 3 or 4 times their salary to sit on the bench. I’m convinced Sevco signed Souttar on a pre-contract not because they particularly needed him, but primarily to show us that they can still help themselves to our players whenever they choose. To show us who’s boss, basically. The fact that they wouldn’t cough up a modest fee to get him in January backs this up. You can bet one of them would have been in for Gordon if he weren’t pushing 40 and clearly here to finish his career.

 

That would be bad enough. What makes it so much worse is that all the media, all the pundits, all the referees and even the SFA and SPFL themselves are completely in thrall to them and fully signed up to the idea that only two teams are important. What happens if someone challenges that world view? That’s what Vlad did. He called them out for their inherent bias, and he was vilified and ridiculed for it. Eventually, of course, they changed the rules to enable them to fine Hearts for his pronouncements, even though he had no official role at the club. It got so bad that a linesman could be caught lying about a foul against us, and the media made us out to be the bad guys when we complained. Vlad was mad and a criminal, but when he talked about the corruption in our game, he was 100% on the money.

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17 hours ago, hearts00 said:

For context, Ranger’s wage bill is £50m ish and Celtic’s is £60m. 

Apparently a club owner with balls can overcome that. I always thought deep pockets wins.

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2 hours ago, Doc Rob said:


The last part is certainly true. Everything they do domestically is geared to maintaining their stranglehold on Scottish football. If any other club shows any sign of challenging, they break it up by offering their key players 3 or 4 times their salary to sit on the bench. I’m convinced Sevco signed Souttar on a pre-contract not because they particularly needed him, but primarily to show us that they can still help themselves to our players whenever they choose. To show us who’s boss, basically. The fact that they wouldn’t cough up a modest fee to get him in January backs this up. You can bet one of them would have been in for Gordon if he weren’t pushing 40 and clearly here to finish his career.

 

That would be bad enough. What makes it so much worse is that all the media, all the pundits, all the referees and even the SFA and SPFL themselves are completely in thrall to them and fully signed up to the idea that only two teams are important. What happens if someone challenges that world view? That’s what Vlad did. He called them out for their inherent bias, and he was vilified and ridiculed for it. Eventually, of course, they changed the rules to enable them to fine Hearts for his pronouncements, even though he had no official role at the club. It got so bad that a linesman could be caught lying about a foul against us, and the media made us out to be the bad guys when we complained. Vlad was mad and a criminal, but when he talked about the corruption in our game, he was 100% on the money.

 

I think you're veering into conspiracy. The OF don't have so much money they're going to toss it around on players they don't need just to mess with somebody else. They signed Souttar because they can use him even if it's on the bench. And because he was cheap.

 

Do you think Hearts would sign say a Motherwell first choice then stick him on the bench to keep Motherwell down?

 

They definitely wouldn't. But if said player was better than the current back up and cheap then it could happen. And that's what the OF do.

 

They have deep squads for a reason and it has nothing to do with keeping anyone down. 

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Bazzas right boot
10 hours ago, Smoked-Glass said:

Actually it wouldn't.

 

Our league would be like the Irish or Welsh, as in non famous.

 

 

 

 

Who cares if it's famous? 

Especially as it's famous for Bigotory and sectarianism. 

 

Competive and exciting every time. 

 

It's all relative. 

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PortyBeach
4 hours ago, JFK-1 said:

 

I think you're veering into conspiracy. The OF don't have so much money they're going to toss it around on players they don't need just to mess with somebody else. They signed Souttar because they can use him even if it's on the bench. And because he was cheap.

 

Do you think Hearts would sign say a Motherwell first choice then stick him on the bench to keep Motherwell down?

 

They definitely wouldn't. But if said player was better than the current back up and cheap then it could happen. And that's what the OF do.

 

They have deep squads for a reason and it has nothing to do with keeping anyone down. 

I follow your reasoning but I don’t think it’s being fanciful to suggest there’s a use of psychological warfare.

When David Murray was engaged in industrial scale tax evasion at Ibrox in an effort to eclipse Celtic, every close season the Scottish media dutifully ran incessant speculative “stories” about RFC’s next multi-million pound signing target. 
It was a win-win, of course. They sold lots of papers and for RFC the benefit was that there was a powerful, drip-feed, message: “we are too strong and there’s no point in trying to compete. You’re beaten before a ball is kicked.”

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On 23/05/2022 at 00:26, hearts00 said:

I wanted to check the stats on how we have faired vs. the OF this century. We all know it is grim reading but it is good to have the exact numbers. 
 

And of course it provides the context for Saturday’s defeat. 
 

The record since season 2000/01 against Celtic and Rangers is: 

 

Total games played = 163

 

Total wins = 26

 

Total win % = 16

 

Home wins = 18 out of 81. 22%. 
 

Away wins (includes Hampden) 8 out of 82. 9.75%. 
 

It of course, as we know, shows the gulf between the OF and the rest. 
 

The context is that when we go to Hampden to play the OF, history tells us we will only win 1 out of 10 matches! 

Is it one win at hampden this century? And that was a last minute winner. 

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14 hours ago, gorgie rd eh11 said:

 

 

Have they? when was the last time they beat them?

Yes, they have. A draw against Celtic is a decent result in my opinion, and Hibs have had loads of them. 

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1 hour ago, Sir PH said:

Yes, they have. A draw against Celtic is a decent result in my opinion, and Hibs have had loads of them. 

 

I think the sheep also got 2 draws with Rangers last season. But I think it's just coincidence. I think both sheep and hubz will be hammered by them next season.

 

By both OF. And all things being equal Hearts should be hammering them too.

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Another depressing statistic from an article in The Scotsman.

 

It is six months since any Scottish team defeated Rangers or Celtic (apart from when they play each other, obviously).

 

https://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/rangers/the-depressing-reality-of-rangers-scottish-cup-triumph-over-hearts-they-and-celtic-have-six-month-hex-and-more-3703927

 

Yet, this is where we are right now. It is now exactly six months since either of the big two suffered a domestic loss outside of their own tribal confrontations. And that occasion, Hibs’ League Cup semi-final slaying of Rangers on November 21 last year, came with the Ibrox men destabilised and disorientated by the departure of Steven Gerrard and his backroom staff to Aston Villa. So much so, they were under the charge of two club youth coaches as a hat-trick from the now departed Martin Boyle condemned them to a 3-1 defeat. A loss Giovanni van Bronckhorst looked out on aghast from the Hampden stands in then not officially having taken up his Ibrox role.

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jack D and coke
41 minutes ago, 4marsbars said:

Another depressing statistic from an article in The Scotsman.

 

It is six months since any Scottish team defeated Rangers or Celtic (apart from when they play each other, obviously).

 

https://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/rangers/the-depressing-reality-of-rangers-scottish-cup-triumph-over-hearts-they-and-celtic-have-six-month-hex-and-more-3703927

 

Yet, this is where we are right now. It is now exactly six months since either of the big two suffered a domestic loss outside of their own tribal confrontations. And that occasion, Hibs’ League Cup semi-final slaying of Rangers on November 21 last year, came with the Ibrox men destabilised and disorientated by the departure of Steven Gerrard and his backroom staff to Aston Villa. So much so, they were under the charge of two club youth coaches as a hat-trick from the now departed Martin Boyle condemned them to a 3-1 defeat. A loss Giovanni van Bronckhorst looked out on aghast from the Hampden stands in then not officially having taken up his Ibrox role.

It’s what gets really irritating when I’ve read post after post on the likes of Facebook about brain damaged Hearts fans demanding we had taken the game to Rangers. Cos apparently that’s all it would’ve taken to bring the cup home. We’d have likely got horsed. 
We’ve beaten them once in our history at a neutral venue in a cup game. In 98…
A mind blowing and depressing statistic. 

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1 hour ago, 4marsbars said:

Another depressing statistic from an article in The Scotsman.

 

It is six months since any Scottish team defeated Rangers or Celtic (apart from when they play each other, obviously).

 

https://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/rangers/the-depressing-reality-of-rangers-scottish-cup-triumph-over-hearts-they-and-celtic-have-six-month-hex-and-more-3703927

 

Yet, this is where we are right now. It is now exactly six months since either of the big two suffered a domestic loss outside of their own tribal confrontations. And that occasion, Hibs’ League Cup semi-final slaying of Rangers on November 21 last year, came with the Ibrox men destabilised and disorientated by the departure of Steven Gerrard and his backroom staff to Aston Villa. So much so, they were under the charge of two club youth coaches as a hat-trick from the now departed Martin Boyle condemned them to a 3-1 defeat. A loss Giovanni van Bronckhorst looked out on aghast from the Hampden stands in then not officially having taken up his Ibrox role.

 

I think that time span is also when they stuttered for a period though still weren't losing but it was enough to lose them the league.

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Stupid Sexy Flanders
On 23/05/2022 at 11:28, The Treasurer said:

We've played the arse cheeks 6 times in the Weeg this season, three against each. 

We had two heavy defeats, 4-1 & 5-0, but on both occasions we were well below full strength. 

Against sevco we have had two draws over 90 minutes. 

Against sellik were beaten by only one goal twice, one of which should have been disallowed. 

Not a fantastic record, but certainly a big improvement on recent years and suggests that we are not as far away from them as some seem to think 

 

 

I think, for the most part, we've played relatively well against them this season, without getting the results obviously. I've certainly seen a difference in our performances against them where we're not just defending for our lives, we're actually getting on the ball and attacking them. 

 

We were certainly unlucky against Celtic a couple of times, they beat us 1-0 with an offside goal, and 2-1 when Boyce hit the post with a penalty. Rangers beat us 2-0 at home where the only difference was the finishing, we had a good few chances that day and just couldn't put them away. Even the 5-0 game at Ibrox, we were right in the game for an hour before we fell apart when it went 2-0. 

 

So, definitely an improvement IMO, we just need to start turning that into results. 

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Thread title change required, there is no OF any longer that died with Rangers, the Scottish media might pander to them and keep it going but we shouldn't. 

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Bull's-eye
18 minutes ago, Chaps said:

Another thread looking at the negative things.

 

This forum thrives on it.

 

Unfortunately Hearts supporters have decades of experience being torn pussed mumpers.

 

Delusions of grandeur.

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The Treasurer
56 minutes ago, Chaps said:

Another thread looking at the negative things.

I would say that my post was more a glass half full type of viewpoint.

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9 hours ago, Chaps said:

Another thread looking at the negative things.

 

I don't think it's raising a negative about Hearts who are in a position everybody outside the OF will envy. I think it's merely acknowledging inescapable realities which have existed for a very long time.

 

For everybody outside the OF. Not just Hearts.

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If we played them once home and away in a larger league with 2 points for a win and one for a draw it would change Scottish football for the better.The league would be tighter than a kookaburra's mimsie.

3 for a win X4 insulates the OF from the rest of the pack guaranteeing European placement between them.

4 skelpings and multiple goals does nothing for anyone.

Oh aye summer football and fill in the corners.

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Big Moysey
1 hour ago, jb102 said:

If we played them once home and away in a larger league with 2 points for a win and one for a draw it would change Scottish football for the better.The league would be tighter than a kookaburra's mimsie.

3 for a win X4 insulates the OF from the rest of the pack guaranteeing European placement between them.

4 skelpings and multiple goals does nothing for anyone.

Oh aye summer football and fill in the corners.

Think Celtics results in Europe reflect your thoughts here. They lose regularly to fairly 'average' teams. 

Main differences when playing those clubs is they have 1/ No familiarity 2/ Unbiased refs (Not corrupted GFA officials) 3/ Opponents that don't support either of the ugly sisters. 

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pettigrewsstylist

Insane levels of fitness in a squad quality higher than we have now, filled with players who are not intimidated by the OF. Coached by people who have some insight how to beat the OF. Very difficult to build that, let alone maintain it!

Not sure how you get round the ref issue tho! Not worth all that effort till you do i guess.

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Percival King
3 hours ago, jb102 said:

If we played them once home and away in a larger league with 2 points for a win and one for a draw it would change Scottish football for the better.The league would be tighter than a kookaburra's mimsie.

3 for a win X4 insulates the OF from the rest of the pack guaranteeing European placement between them.

4 skelpings and multiple goals does nothing for anyone.

Oh aye summer football and fill in the corners.

The difficulty with that is that, even if you were to assume it would improve things, it wouldn't get past a vote. Clubs aren't going to vote to reduce their turnstile and TV income and TV exposure. And why would Celtic or The Rangers vote for something aimed at challenging their dominance? I'm sure we wouldn't vote for it if it was us in their place and there would be an outcry on here if we did.

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