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11 hours ago, Smithee said:

Correct, although public utilities should be in public hands for me.


I wouldn’t trust any of the parties to run a bath never mind vital utilities.  I work in one and I can tell you my pay rises have never been above 1% - 1.5% the last 6 years. No overtime opportunities for me either.

But I’d hate to be run by the SNP etc

Edited by 1971fozzy
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13 hours ago, Spitonastranger said:

Every benefit you have from education to health to pay was fought for by unions and people taking action 

 

Just think this is worth repeating.

 

Always amazes me that some people think that these large business' give you paid holidays / sick pay / lunch breaks / pensions / workers rights etc. out the goodness of their hearts.

 

 

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Spitonastranger
1 hour ago, jambo89 said:

 

Just think this is worth repeating.

 

Always amazes me that some people think that these large business' give you paid holidays / sick pay / lunch breaks / pensions / workers rights etc. out the goodness of their hearts.

 

 

👍

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Diadora Van Basten

I think this shows the problem with nationalisation. 
 

The train drivers have a legitimate grievance and the Scottish Government need to negotiate and resolve the issues.

 

I would imagine this could be achieved by an increased pay offer and a plan so that more train drivers are trained to avoid existing drivers being overstretched.

 

But they can’t afford to and probably can’t give this issue the time required to resolve it. 
 

Instead they just work within the parameters they currently have and expect the public to lump it.

 

If the government can’t run the railway properly then they should give it to someone who can.

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Before the pandemic I was a regular train commuter travelling Livi North-Edinburgh.  I had an annual season ticket which cost around £1300 at the time.  Not exactly cheap, but I could use it at weekends, too - which I did for home games.

 

The Livi North service went from being totally unreliable to reasonably good over the years.

 

I have no qualms with the staff looking for a decent pay rise.  The issue with the rail service in this country is that it's sorely in need of modernising in terms of the infrastructure.  If the government - whatever flavour - is serious about getting people on trains, they need to upgrade the system.  Modern trains are no good when archaic points and signal systems fail, which they did repeatedly when I commuted.

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Japan Jambo
2 hours ago, Lord Montpelier said:

Our Transport Minister is actually a teacher by profession. She won't have a clue what to do in this situation. 

 

can picture her down here in Parliament Square with an XR t-shirt on.

 

noting that she is also responsible for ferries and airports. guess she must have capacity to squeeze in one more little project, is she a relation of Chris Grayling per chance?

 

https://www.gov.scot/about/who-runs-government/cabinet-and-ministers/minister-for-transport/

 

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Unknown user
2 hours ago, 1971fozzy said:


I wouldn’t trust any of the parties to run a bath never mind vital utilities.  I work in one and I can tell you my pay rises have never been above 1% - 1.5% the last 6 years. No overtime opportunities for me either.

But I’d hate to be run by the SNP etc

 

Nationalising, and being run by political parties aren't the same thing

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AlimOzturk
48 minutes ago, The Frenchman Returns said:

@John Findlay may I ask what impact could be tomorrow for jambos planning to travel by train. Are there likely to be cancellations?

cheers


Strike is on Sunday but a lot of the back shift workers on Saturday might not bother turning up. 

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Shanks said no
3 minutes ago, AlimOzturk said:


Strike is on Sunday but a lot of the back shift workers on Saturday might not bother turning up. 

Lot of cancellations on Bathgate line yesterday 

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John Findlay
58 minutes ago, The Frenchman Returns said:

@John Findlay may I ask what impact could be tomorrow for jambos planning to travel by train. Are there likely to be cancellations?

cheers

The scaled down timetable comes into place from Monday the 23rd.

However there will be cancellations tomorrow. How many between Edinburgh and Glasgow, and Glasgow and Edinburgh, I can't tell you at the moment as it all depends on how many drivers turnout for work across the whole network tomorrow. Tomorrow will be nowhere as bad as it will be from Monday.

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38 minutes ago, AlimOzturk said:


Strike is on Sunday but a lot of the back shift workers on Saturday might not bother turning up. 

What strike on Sunday.

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Lord Montpelier
1 hour ago, Smithee said:

 

Nationalising, and being run by political parties aren't the same thing

What do you think about the Transport Secretary handpicked by Nic actually being a teacher up until a few years ago. Well qualified to address challenges like this ?

 

Probably better than Humza to be fair. 

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1 hour ago, The Frenchman Returns said:

Lot of cancellations on Bathgate line yesterday 

I noticed that last night, had to wait an hour for a train instead of 30 minutes.

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Unknown user
2 minutes ago, Lord Montpelier said:

What do you think about the Transport Secretary handpicked by Nic actually being a teacher up until a few years ago. Well qualified to address challenges like this ?

 

Probably better than Humza to be fair. 

 

I don't know much about them or their qualifications.

 

I also don't think transport minister should have much to do with actually running the thing though. We're still in the early days and we'll see how things evolve, but I want to see the company run as a professional enterprise by it's board, not an appointed politician, of any flavour 

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Just now, Smithee said:

In short, public owned, yes.

 

Public run, no.

yep, govt oversight with powers to get them to sort issues (just like regulators have, maybe a specific regulator would be better?). That however i think would need the right experts who could advise the govt minister if things are going wrong and can advise on any comms from scotrail (in this case) about any issues and what plans they have or plan to put into place to resolve any major problems.

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3 minutes ago, Smithee said:

In short, public owned, yes.

 

Public run, no.

 

Scottish Water seems to operate fairly well at arms length. Not perfect but it's not a basket case because it was allowed to get on without interference/privatisation. 

 

Anyone screaming about the rail network being badly run needs to remember that ScotRail is just at the start of public ownership and dealing with previous issues (such as wages). It'll take time to fix.

 

With regard to unions and pay rises - Work to rule is a good method to show where the overall system needs support or cuts - the Unions should be cautious though, there's a point where the public will expect more from the drivers in return for the wages.

 

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Unknown user
18 minutes ago, Mysterion said:

 

Scottish Water seems to operate fairly well at arms length. Not perfect but it's not a basket case because it was allowed to get on without interference/privatisation. 

 

Anyone screaming about the rail network being badly run needs to remember that ScotRail is just at the start of public ownership and dealing with previous issues (such as wages). It'll take time to fix.

 

With regard to unions and pay rises - Work to rule is a good method to show where the overall system needs support or cuts - the Unions should be cautious though, there's a point where the public will expect more from the drivers in return for the wages.

 

Agreed

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AlimOzturk
1 hour ago, benny said:

What strike on Sunday.

Scot rail are striking over pay I thought this was happening Sunday?

 

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1 hour ago, AlimOzturk said:

Scot rail are striking over pay I thought this was happening Sunday?

 

I think it is just the drivers not working on their rest days.

Could be wrong though.

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AlimOzturk
1 hour ago, benny said:

I think it is just the drivers not working on their rest days.

Could be wrong though.


Ok. Fair enough. 

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John Findlay

Currently, the drivers are not working rest days or doing overtime. Regarding a Sunday it is deemed overtime if you are not a rostered to work a Sunday.

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3 hours ago, AlimOzturk said:

Scot rail are striking over pay I thought this was happening Sunday?

 

Definitely not a strike, the drivers are just exercising their right like everyone else that works in not doing overtime.

 

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Unknown user
4 hours ago, AlimOzturk said:

Scot rail are striking over pay I thought this was happening Sunday?

 

 

ScotRail drivers are refusing extra hours to try and get a better pay offer than 2.2%.

 

The company that was nationalised 7 weeks ago doesn't have enough staff to man the timetable without those extra hours so they've received by reducing the timetable to one that can work with current staffing levels. This is a staffing situation that's been in place for years, it seems drivers were ok with the extra hours until now, but I don't know much about it or why that's changed.

 

The drivers' union plans strike action this summer if they don't get more, which I think won't win them much support given the disruption it'll cause and that they're on over a grand a week already. I think the public will see them as greedy and lacking in perspective.

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Most of you are buying the line that there's a shortage of drivers. That isn't the case at all.

 

The problem being that they work on a 6 day week (most of the railway, not just them). To simplify, that means that most of them get rostered one day off Mon-Sat and whilst they may have Sundays in their roster they aren't obliged to work those shifts as they're over and above their contracted hours. There are exceptions to this where you might find some depots work on a 4 days a week basis so they'll have 2 days off Mon-Sat. When a rail workers employer gives them the arsehole they lose their goodwill and overtime money. Unfulfilled Sundays won't be fixed by employing more drivers, only by changing the contracts they work within. There isn't an overnight fix for that.

 

I have Sundays allocated in my roster but there isn't a chance in hell I'm working 6 days a week, every weekend or all weekend.  Sunday is the only day I can guarantee I'm around to see my kids and have real time with my family. So I haven't worked a Sunday in 7 years, leaving it for a keener colleague to work those shifts instead. As a depot we've had on occasion the need to stand together and all refuse to work on a given Sunday, opting to "have a BBQ" at someone's house. We can do that without the unions help or need for a ballot.  

 

Medium/long term fix is to change the contracts for new members of staff to include Sundays in the working week. Throwing new drivers at this without changing the contracts would be futile.

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Diadora Van Basten
3 hours ago, IronJambo said:

Most of you are buying the line that there's a shortage of drivers. That isn't the case at all.

 

The problem being that they work on a 6 day week (most of the railway, not just them). To simplify, that means that most of them get rostered one day off Mon-Sat and whilst they may have Sundays in their roster they aren't obliged to work those shifts as they're over and above their contracted hours. There are exceptions to this where you might find some depots work on a 4 days a week basis so they'll have 2 days off Mon-Sat. When a rail workers employer gives them the arsehole they lose their goodwill and overtime money. Unfulfilled Sundays won't be fixed by employing more drivers, only by changing the contracts they work within. There isn't an overnight fix for that.

 

I have Sundays allocated in my roster but there isn't a chance in hell I'm working 6 days a week, every weekend or all weekend.  Sunday is the only day I can guarantee I'm around to see my kids and have real time with my family. So I haven't worked a Sunday in 7 years, leaving it for a keener colleague to work those shifts instead. As a depot we've had on occasion the need to stand together and all refuse to work on a given Sunday, opting to "have a BBQ" at someone's house. We can do that without the unions help or need for a ballot.  

 

Medium/long term fix is to change the contracts for new members of staff to include Sundays in the working week. Throwing new drivers at this without changing the contracts would be futile.

I’m lost now:

 

The timetable has been cut because there are not drivers.
But the issue won’t be solved by getting new drivers due to something in contracts about working on a Sunday.

 

Doesn’t make any sense to me. Surely if there are not enough drivers to provide the timetable required to provide the public with the service required and keep them from getting in their cars then you need more drivers.

 

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Unknown user
3 hours ago, IronJambo said:

Most of you are buying the line that there's a shortage of drivers. That isn't the case at all.

 

The problem being that they work on a 6 day week (most of the railway, not just them). To simplify, that means that most of them get rostered one day off Mon-Sat and whilst they may have Sundays in their roster they aren't obliged to work those shifts as they're over and above their contracted hours. There are exceptions to this where you might find some depots work on a 4 days a week basis so they'll have 2 days off Mon-Sat. When a rail workers employer gives them the arsehole they lose their goodwill and overtime money. Unfulfilled Sundays won't be fixed by employing more drivers, only by changing the contracts they work within. There isn't an overnight fix for that.

 

I have Sundays allocated in my roster but there isn't a chance in hell I'm working 6 days a week, every weekend or all weekend.  Sunday is the only day I can guarantee I'm around to see my kids and have real time with my family. So I haven't worked a Sunday in 7 years, leaving it for a keener colleague to work those shifts instead. As a depot we've had on occasion the need to stand together and all refuse to work on a given Sunday, opting to "have a BBQ" at someone's house. We can do that without the unions help or need for a ballot.  

 

Medium/long term fix is to change the contracts for new members of staff to include Sundays in the working week. Throwing new drivers at this without changing the contracts would be futile.

 

There aren't enough drivers to fulfill the timetable without goodwill and overtime, it isn't a line.

 

It's clear that big issues have been inherited and need fixed, and it would appear that many are currently inherent in the industry.

So it needs sorted, we need to employ enough people to cover the hours needed, and have them contracted to provide the service. 

 

It's a farce that drivers aren't obliged to work on a Sunday, I hate to think what overtime rate they're on for those shifts. 

As someone else said they need to be careful. While they're planning to strike for more than the grand a week they're already on (overtime notwithstanding) the public will see privilege and entitlement, terms and conditions way above the average Joe, and are likely be unimpressed by the disruption to their lives.

 

I'm not anti union or anti driver in the slightest by the way, but they're wielding a lot of power, too much, and the imbalance needs fixed.

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Dennis Reynolds

When the government inevitably tries to change the contracts to include working Sundays (the horror) you can almost guarantee a strike will be called.

 

Not ScotRail, but saw on Twitter of a few fans stuck in York as the train is delayed an hour and now going to Edinburgh rather than Glasgow. Relaying on a train is a fools errand. Can't imagine it's going to go much better later on. I'm all for using public transport as much as possible to save the planet but ffs. If the staff aren't striking or just not working then points/signals or whatever have failed. The whole things a mess. Good luck to the drivers but I must say, 2.2% is not an insult. Sounds like a fairly standard price rise. Might just be something you need to get used to now being in public ownership. 

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Harry Potter
4 hours ago, IronJambo said:

Most of you are buying the line that there's a shortage of drivers. That isn't the case at all.

 

The problem being that they work on a 6 day week (most of the railway, not just them). To simplify, that means that most of them get rostered one day off Mon-Sat and whilst they may have Sundays in their roster they aren't obliged to work those shifts as they're over and above their contracted hours. There are exceptions to this where you might find some depots work on a 4 days a week basis so they'll have 2 days off Mon-Sat. When a rail workers employer gives them the arsehole they lose their goodwill and overtime money. Unfulfilled Sundays won't be fixed by employing more drivers, only by changing the contracts they work within. There isn't an overnight fix for that.

 

I have Sundays allocated in my roster but there isn't a chance in hell I'm working 6 days a week, every weekend or all weekend.  Sunday is the only day I can guarantee I'm around to see my kids and have real time with my family. So I haven't worked a Sunday in 7 years, leaving it for a keener colleague to work those shifts instead. As a depot we've had on occasion the need to stand together and all refuse to work on a given Sunday, opting to "have a BBQ" at someone's house. We can do that without the unions help or need for a ballot.  

 

Medium/long term fix is to change the contracts for new members of staff to include Sundays in the working week. Throwing new drivers at this without changing the contracts would be futile.

What % of the drivers wage is shift allowance ?.

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The unions were always going to chance their arm as soon as the SG took the service under their control. Funny how they seemed (relatively) happy before April 

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7 minutes ago, XB52 said:

The unions were always going to chance their arm as soon as the SG took the service under their control. Funny how they seemed (relatively) happy before April 

Pay negotiations start in April.

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4 hours ago, Smithee said:

 

There aren't enough drivers to fulfill the timetable without goodwill and overtime, it isn't a line.

 

 

It's a farce that drivers aren't obliged to work on a Sunday, I hate to think what overtime rate they're on for those shifts. 

 

I'll guarantee you there are more drivers being constantly trained. There will be existing drivers being punted out the company because their face doesn't fit. They can add as many drivers as they like to the depots but they're only going to share the same amount of trains that the current drivers are rostered to work. 

 

Needing drivers to work overtime to fulfill Sunday work isn't a driver shortage issue. There are more than enough drivers. Whether you agree with it is not they don't have to work on a Sunday and they're pissed off so they've collectively decided that they won't work a Sunday.

 

If you add 1000 more drivers in with the current t's&C's that people have fought for years to maintain then you'll have another 1000 drivers refusing to work a Sunday also.

 

Edit: if it's the same as my place it's the same OT rate that they get for any other day of the week. Not much inventive really when an overtime shift in the week is worth the same as a Sunday.

Edited by IronJambo
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Pele_Is_God

I presume there's no way this is getting resolved by Monday. Typical, biggest game for ages and I might not be able to go. Thanks Scotrail!

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John Findlay
4 hours ago, IronJambo said:

I'll guarantee you there are more drivers being constantly trained. There will be existing drivers being punted out the company because their face doesn't fit. They can add as many drivers as they like to the depots but they're only going to share the same amount of trains that the current drivers are rostered to work. 

 

Needing drivers to work overtime to fulfill Sunday work isn't a driver shortage issue. There are more than enough drivers. Whether you agree with it is not they don't have to work on a Sunday and they're pissed off so they've collectively decided that they won't work a Sunday.

 

If you add 1000 more drivers in with the current t's&C's that people have fought for years to maintain then you'll have another 1000 drivers refusing to work a Sunday also.

 

Edit: if it's the same as my place it's the same OT rate that they get for any other day of the week. Not much inventive really when an overtime shift in the week is worth the same as a Sunday.

Nope. Sunday overtime working is quite a bit more than a Mon-Sat WRD rate.

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43 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

Nope. Sunday overtime working is quite a bit more than a Mon-Sat WRD rate.

We used to get time+¾ but they dropped it down to time+¼ in line with normal rdw a few years ago. I'm glad Scotrail staff are still paid properly for their Sundays then 👍

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I'm sure the driver's won't want to be without OT for too long, the railway is full of greedy b@stards 🤣

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Doctor FinnBarr
On 20/05/2022 at 11:31, superjack said:

I noticed that last night, had to wait an hour for a train instead of 30 minutes.

 

Firstbus are far far worse from Bathgate, liable to pull a bus at any point with no reason given, at least Blackburn is walkable. Can you imagine getting stranded if going to Fauldhouse, Stoneyburn, West Calder etc?

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NHS is another place the most paid do what they want. 

 

But something clearly went wrong for the drivers. 

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Unknown user
8 hours ago, IronJambo said:

I'll guarantee you there are more drivers being constantly trained. There will be existing drivers being punted out the company because their face doesn't fit. They can add as many drivers as they like to the depots but they're only going to share the same amount of trains that the current drivers are rostered to work. 

 

Needing drivers to work overtime to fulfill Sunday work isn't a driver shortage issue. There are more than enough drivers. Whether you agree with it is not they don't have to work on a Sunday and they're pissed off so they've collectively decided that they won't work a Sunday.

 

If you add 1000 more drivers in with the current t's&C's that people have fought for years to maintain then you'll have another 1000 drivers refusing to work a Sunday also.

 

Edit: if it's the same as my place it's the same OT rate that they get for any other day of the week. Not much inventive really when an overtime shift in the week is worth the same as a Sunday.

There aren't more than enough drivers, we know this because non Sunday services are being affected by this work to rule action.

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54 minutes ago, Smithee said:

There aren't more than enough drivers, we know this because non Sunday services are being affected by this work to rule action.

Stop being thick and read what I wrote.

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Doctor FinnBarr
1 hour ago, IronJambo said:

Stop being thick and read what I wrote.

 

Read what you wrote yourself mate, not enough drivers blah de blah no one to cover Sundays etc etc, but they want a pay rise for running reduced services? Away and take a running jump, I'm one of the so called key workers who kept food in your supermarkets during the pandemic, we worked without complaint although we were more liable to catch covid and for what? 2% of a wage rise. Why do you arseholes think you deserve more than me as a wage rise?

 

PS, Im actually livid Ironjambo, best not to answer me just now.

Edited by FinnBarr Saunders
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Unknown user
6 hours ago, IronJambo said:

Stop being thick and read what I wrote.

 

We're all in a mood after the final so no biggie, but come on now.

 

If it was just affecting Sundays you might have a point, but a third of services are off because of the work to rule thing. This isn't just affecting Sundays.

There aren't enough drivers to run a full timetable, if there were, weekdays would be unaffected by work to rule.

 

4 hours ago, FinnBarr Saunders said:

 

Read what you wrote yourself mate, not enough drivers blah de blah no one to cover Sundays etc etc, but they want a pay rise for running reduced services? Away and take a running jump, I'm one of the so called key workers who kept food in your supermarkets during the pandemic, we worked without complaint although we were more liable to catch covid and for what? 2% of a wage rise. Why do you arseholes think you deserve more than me as a wage rise?

 

PS, Im actually livid Ironjambo, best not to answer me just now.

 

Right? There's no one taken for granted like supermarket workers. And I mean, striking over 2.2% while on 50k+ at a time when people are genuinely worried.

 

They won't come out of this looking good. Of course they don't want more drivers or changes to their Ts and Cs, it dilutes their power if there are enough drivers to deliver the service with work to rule and they want Sunday overtime rates when they fancy it - I would too, you always want better.

 

But I think it's a really big mistake to draw attention to their situation with the threat of strikes when they're in such a privileged position already. The public aren't going to give them a warm hug of support when they realise what these guys earn (way above average) and what they expect (they've also been offered a bonus scheme for hitting targets.)

 

I think they're shooting themselves in the foot, the drivers' rep actually acknowledged on the radio that they have great terms and conditions, but that they shouldn't be punished for that with a low pay offer. They actually think that not getting a big payrise on top of a big wage is punishment - tone deaf was a great phrase used by another poster.

Edited by Smithee
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fabienleclerq
On 19/05/2022 at 16:40, Smithee said:

I'm on 4k. Train drivers want more than the 54k they're on. 

 

Boo ****ing hoo

 

Boo ****ing hoo you are on 4k,whos faults that? Certainly not train drivers. If you worked in a industry doing the same job as others but were the lowest paid in the country would you not make an issue of it? 

 

I would imagine the unions played a part in you getting the 4k you do. 

On 19/05/2022 at 18:34, Smithee said:

That's pretty low, it's not about jealousy, it's about people struggling to exist while the middle class go on strike for more

People in Africa don't get 4k so are you sending them some? 

 

On 19/05/2022 at 18:52, Smithee said:

 

7 weeks Frank, you can't hire and fire til you run the thing

 

They've been pulling the strings for at least 18 months and kicked everything down the road. 

On 20/05/2022 at 07:34, jambo89 said:

 

Just think this is worth repeating.

 

Always amazes me that some people think that these large business' give you paid holidays / sick pay / lunch breaks / pensions / workers rights etc. out the goodness of their hearts.

 

 

Amen. 

 

 

People fighting for better conditions should get support. Everyone seems happy for shareholders to get dividends but down on workers getting pay rises when costs of living are going up. 

 

"Why should they when nurses get...." always a race to the bottom, nurses should get more, if they went on strike railway workers would be the first to back them. 

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Doctor FinnBarr
8 minutes ago, fabienleclerq said:

 

Boo ****ing hoo you are on 4k,whos faults that? Certainly not train drivers. If you worked in a industry doing the same job as others but were the lowest paid in the country would you not make an issue of it? 

 

I would imagine the unions played a part in you getting the 4k you do. 

People in Africa don't get 4k so are you sending them some? 

 

 

They've been pulling the strings for at least 18 months and kicked everything down the road. 

Amen. 

 

 

People fighting for better conditions should get support. Everyone seems happy for shareholders to get dividends but down on workers getting pay rises when costs of living are going up. 

 

"Why should they when nurses get...." always a race to the bottom, nurses should get more, if they went on strike railway workers would be the first to back them. 

 

Would they ****, self entitled twats are no doubt already causing nurses problems getting to and from work.

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Unknown user
23 minutes ago, fabienleclerq said:

 

Boo ****ing hoo you are on 4k,whos faults that? Certainly not train drivers. If you worked in a industry doing the same job as others but were the lowest paid in the country would you not make an issue of it? 

 

I would imagine the unions played a part in you getting the 4k you do. 

People in Africa don't get 4k so are you sending them some? 

 

 

They've been pulling the strings for at least 18 months and kicked everything down the road. 

Amen. 

 

 

People fighting for better conditions should get support. Everyone seems happy for shareholders to get dividends but down on workers getting pay rises when costs of living are going up. 

 

"Why should they when nurses get...." always a race to the bottom, nurses should get more, if they went on strike railway workers would be the first to back them. 

 

Fault? Who's talking about fault?

 

The only reason I bring it up is to show the difference between the actual difficulty millions face and the privileged conditions they enjoy. If they strike people will turn on them.

 

You'd imagine the unions paid a part in universal credit being 4k? 

:cornette:

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fabienleclerq
23 minutes ago, FinnBarr Saunders said:

 

Would they ****, self entitled twats are no doubt already causing nurses problems getting to and from work.

 

They are causing problems by not working overtime or their days off? 

 

Not sure that's a worker issue you daft *****. 

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