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Ellis Simms


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Lone Striker
53 minutes ago, SMJ_1874 said:

Must be still due us from selling them the Golden Vision 

.... and Gary Naysmith.

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Play for a shitey championship team or go on a European adventure with the mighty Hearts….. you know it makes sense Ellis!

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1 hour ago, kingantti1874 said:

I certainly think that Sverton going down doesn’t improve our chances.. however, they will want to ensure an instant return and may go for a known quantity..

 

we should offer Everton £1.5m of the £5m we are about to earn.. he’s 21.  We will make it back and some so is a worthwhile investment..

 

it probably won’t work but we can try

Sounds good but clubs like us will never pay that amount, far too risky in my opinion. Love him as a player mind, he is the business.

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kingantti1874
9 minutes ago, Lfhearts said:

Sounds good but clubs like us will never pay that amount, far too risky in my opinion. Love him as a player mind, he is the business.


At some point down the one we need to speculate otherwise we fall back into the pack.

 

we need to invest wisely though

Edited by kingantti1874
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2 hours ago, pointon said:

We have a proper centre forward for the first time in years at least try and get him 

He leads the line better than anyone we have had in donkeys years.Big if but if we sign him I reckon he will be top scorer in Scotland next season.

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33 minutes ago, Lone Striker said:

.... and Gary Naysmith.

Yes mate he did very well down there. We got a decent fee for him too iirc. 

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merseyjambo
2 hours ago, boag1874 said:

Not a chance they’d sell him for that imo. He’s contracted til 2024 having just re-signed before coming to us & is very, very highly rated by them.

 

If they stay up we might get another loan, otherwise enjoy him for the next few weeks because we aint going to be able to afford him


I was talking hypothetical numbers.

 

He was rated by Unsworth and Benitez. 
 

The fans would like to see more of Simms but it’s not their decision, it’s Fat Frankie’s.

 

Asking to buy with a buyback for a set figure could work for both parties if the figures are sensible. 
 

IMO he’s not premiership ready and may be someone like Ivan Toney who blossoms a bit later in life in Premiership. 
 

A lot will depend on whether Everton stay up.

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Speculate to accumulate. 

 

Burst the bank now, make us millions in the future. 

 

Do it Hearts. 

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Lone Striker
16 minutes ago, vegas-voss said:

He leads the line better than anyone we have had in donkeys years.Big if but if we sign him I reckon he will be top scorer in Scotland next season.

Fairly unlikely he'll outgun Kyogo, Morelos etc - but I really like Ellis's calmness and body strength.    Now that he's started scoring, that should give him confidence in his ability to do well at our level.    As you say, we've not had many forwards like that this century.   Lafferty maybe ?      Superb work by Joe and Will to negotiate things with Everton - it would be brilliant if they can negotiate another year's loan with them too.

 

 

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FarmerTweedy
2 hours ago, PhoenixHearts said:

He'd be more than worth breaking our record transfer fee on this form. Even when he's not scoring he's generally causing problems for defenders and knows how to hold the ball up. Feel like he's really starting to get to grips with our game.

 

A transfer fee wouldn't even be the issue though. As others have stated already, the stumbling block would be his wages.

 

I don't know if the club have changed the way we do things now with wage/bonus splits. Surely if he took a wage cut but had several incentives written into his contract it could be worked out?

 

 

Edit: 

 

Ps. if wages are such an issue when signing players from clubs like Everton, how come we snagged Beni? What's the difference there? Simms closer to the senior team thus wages reflect that?

I think you hit the answer (or part of it) yourself there!

 

Beni is more than 2 years older than Ellis, I think he was completely out the picture at Everton and knew it. He'd hardly played a game for anyone in the previous three years, and he and his agent knew hardly any clubs were looking at him as he mentions in this piece https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/58900311 . I think he knew he had very little in the way of options and that what we were offering him in terms of the opportunity to kickstart his career again was far more valuable than holding out for the possibility of a better offer maybe (or maybe not) coming along.

 

Ellis Simms, on the other hand, is that bit younger and with things going very well for him just now, will feel that his career is very much on the up and up just now, and will probably also feel he's still got a real chance of making it with Everton. And even if he doesn't quite make it with Everton, he'll probably think he might get an opportunity at a smaller EPL club (a Burnley, a Brighton or a Brentford) or a bigger English Championship club, and will probably have corresponding wage expectations. I think he'll probably be happy to come back on loan again next season, especially with group stage European football guaranteed, but even if Everton were to tell him in the summer that they don't see a future for him with them, I think he'll see his longer term future at a higher, or at least more lucrative, level than ours.

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FarmerTweedy
3 hours ago, jamboozy said:

How’s that TRM? Genuinely interested, not moving to Hamilton 😜

Where are you moving to? If you were moving to Hamilton, which bit of Hamilton would you move to? What kind of biscuits would you have with your first cup of tea in Hamilton? 

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Mr Elwood P
59 minutes ago, stevenson1 said:

Everton stay up Ellis will almost certain to be at Tynecastle next season.

Will be on about £4k per week

😉


He would just be on loan again ... 

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Jambo dans les Pyrenees
17 minutes ago, FarmerTweedy said:

I think you hit the answer (or part of it) yourself there!

 

Beni is more than 2 years older than Ellis, I think he was completely out the picture at Everton and knew it. He'd hardly played a game for anyone in the previous three years, and he and his agent knew hardly any clubs were looking at him as he mentions in this piece https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/58900311 . I think he knew he had very little in the way of options and that what we were offering him in terms of the opportunity to kickstart his career again was far more valuable than holding out for the possibility of a better offer maybe (or maybe not) coming along.

 

Ellis Simms, on the other hand, is that bit younger and with things going very well for him just now, will feel that his career is very much on the up and up just now, and will probably also feel he's still got a real chance of making it with Everton. And even if he doesn't quite make it with Everton, he'll probably think he might get an opportunity at a smaller EPL club (a Burnley, a Brighton or a Brentford) or a bigger English Championship club, and will probably have corresponding wage expectations. I think he'll probably be happy to come back on loan again next season, especially with group stage European football guaranteed, but even if Everton were to tell him in the summer that they don't see a future for him with them, I think he'll see his longer term future at a higher, or at least more lucrative, level than ours.

 

I think this is it.

 

He's 21, 2 years left on his Everton deal - I hope they give us half or a full season of him on loan next year to continue his development in a team playing well and about to have a lot of games in Europe.

 

I don't think we would be able to pay what Everton want for him.

 

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24 minutes ago, Lone Striker said:

Fairly unlikely he'll outgun Kyogo, Morelos etc - but I really like Ellis's calmness and body strength.    Now that he's started scoring, that should give him confidence in his ability to do well at our level.    As you say, we've not had many forwards like that this century.   Lafferty maybe ?      Superb work by Joe and Will to negotiate things with Everton - it would be brilliant if they can negotiate another year's loan with them too.

 

 

Charles - Cook was outscoring them for most of the season and Boyce was also keeping pace with them for quite a while.

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FarmerTweedy
3 hours ago, airdriejambo3 said:

I believe Hearts have also enquired about the availability of a familiar full back on loan for next year from Everton, we seem to be building a solid relationship with them so who knows. 

We're signing Seamus Coleman? :vrwow:

 

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jamboinglasgow
3 hours ago, airdriejambo3 said:

I believe Hearts have also enquired about the availability of a familiar full back on loan for next year from Everton, we seem to be building a solid relationship with them so who knows. 

 

Intrigued by you saying they are familiar. because outwith the first team players who it wouldn't be, cant think of any other familiar one except Niels Nkounkou.

 

But I think its good to establish a relationship with a club like Everton as though their first team is pretty poor at the moment they do produce good young players. And as Beni and Ellis demonstrate, it can really benefit us.

 

One spanner in the works its worth noting though is FIFA's new rules on loan players. Clubs will only be allowed to loan out eight players to clubs outside their own nation (with club's respective FA's expected to bring in a similar rule for domestic loans.) If Everton go down they will want to get quite a few high earners out, and they will probably have to loan out a few. So it may limit the chances of Ellis coming to us. Of course, it may have the opposite effect where the club move more players on who they cant loan and dont see as being first team players, I would even suggest that Hearts look to sign with a buy back clause for Everton.

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FarmerTweedy
3 hours ago, boag1874 said:

Not a chance they’d sell him for that imo. He’s contracted til 2024 having just re-signed before coming to us & is very, very highly rated by them.

 

If they stay up we might get another loan, otherwise enjoy him for the next few weeks because we aint going to be able to afford him

I thought he only had another year to go but yes, two more years having only signed a new contract in November. Now that I know that, I'd say there's absolutely zero chance we're signing him permanently, but I still think there's a good chance of another loan next season although as I've said elsewhere, I think we'll probably have to wait until some time in August before Everton make a decision on it.

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The sensible move would be him to stay another year on loan, hes still young. European experience from next season and if he continues to improve he can go back and push for a place at Everton. If they don't feel he's good enough I'm sure he will have plenty options from clubs that we can't compete with even with our additional funding coming in next 12 months. 

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20 minutes ago, jamboinglasgow said:

 

Intrigued by you saying they are familiar. because outwith the first team players who it wouldn't be, cant think of any other familiar one except Niels Nkounkou.

 

But I think its good to establish a relationship with a club like Everton as though their first team is pretty poor at the moment they do produce good young players. And as Beni and Ellis demonstrate, it can really benefit us.

 

One spanner in the works its worth noting though is FIFA's new rules on loan players. Clubs will only be allowed to loan out eight players to clubs outside their own nation (with club's respective FA's expected to bring in a similar rule for domestic loans.) If Everton go down they will want to get quite a few high earners out, and they will probably have to loan out a few. So it may limit the chances of Ellis coming to us. Of course, it may have the opposite effect where the club move more players on who they cant loan and dont see as being first team players, I would even suggest that Hearts look to sign with a buy back clause for Everton.

I believe that Everton have about 8 out on loan at present.

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42 minutes ago, jamboinglasgow said:

 

Intrigued by you saying they are familiar. because outwith the first team players who it wouldn't be, cant think of any other familiar one except Niels Nkounkou.

 

But I think its good to establish a relationship with a club like Everton as though their first team is pretty poor at the moment they do produce good young players. And as Beni and Ellis demonstrate, it can really benefit us.

 

One spanner in the works its worth noting though is FIFA's new rules on loan players. Clubs will only be allowed to loan out eight players to clubs outside their own nation (with club's respective FA's expected to bring in a similar rule for domestic loans.) If Everton go down they will want to get quite a few high earners out, and they will probably have to loan out a few. So it may limit the chances of Ellis coming to us. Of course, it may have the opposite effect where the club move more players on who they cant loan and dont see as being first team players, I would even suggest that Hearts look to sign with a buy back clause for Everton.


Nathan Patterson?

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BackOfTheNet
52 minutes ago, jamboinglasgow said:

 

Intrigued by you saying they are familiar. because outwith the first team players who it wouldn't be, cant think of any other familiar one except Niels Nkounkou.

 

But I think its good to establish a relationship with a club like Everton as though their first team is pretty poor at the moment they do produce good young players. And as Beni and Ellis demonstrate, it can really benefit us.

 

One spanner in the works its worth noting though is FIFA's new rules on loan players. Clubs will only be allowed to loan out eight players to clubs outside their own nation (with club's respective FA's expected to bring in a similar rule for domestic loans.) If Everton go down they will want to get quite a few high earners out, and they will probably have to loan out a few. So it may limit the chances of Ellis coming to us. Of course, it may have the opposite effect where the club move more players on who they cant loan and dont see as being first team players, I would even suggest that Hearts look to sign with a buy back clause for Everton.


I think if they do go down they will believe they have what it takes to get back up even if they let the big players go. But I think they’ll want to loan players out to have them back once back in the top league. For instance, they’ll likely be pressured into selling someone like Richarlison, but someone like Dacoure could be loaned to a team in Ligue 1 for a season to come back to the squad once promoted. Fulham tend to similar with high earners who have no interest in playing in the English Championship but also don’t want to lose out on their wage (as even with the contract clause relegation drop will still be high).

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jamboinglasgow
14 minutes ago, Uncle Buck said:


Nathan Patterson?

 

Hadn't thought of that, would be good but want to see Atkinson kick on.

 

Though saw another poster put NP and thought he was jokingly saying Neil Pointon

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Naisys Tackle

Realistically I can't see it at all he will be here next season.  

 

Everton might want to give him a chance, we couldn't afford him and there will be big clubs in the Championship wanting him.

 

He's been a brilliant signing and will go on to have a wonderful career.  Football clubs aren't stupid and it's not a secret how well he's doing. 

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Naisys Tackle
1 hour ago, Bainy said:

The sensible move would be him to stay another year on loan, hes still young. European experience from next season and if he continues to improve he can go back and push for a place at Everton. If they don't feel he's good enough I'm sure he will have plenty options from clubs that we can't compete with even with our additional funding coming in next 12 months. 

 

Sadly, the sensible move for him, if he's away out on loan again next year would be to show he's good enough for the English Championship so when his contract runs out at Everton he will get prime Championship wages , a bit like Jimmy Dunne. 

 

What it does though, for us, is show we are a fantastic club if you want to send a player with massive potential to on loan because of Europe, because of the way we play and because we are the best of the rest in Scottish football. 

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I think he'll be here next season, whether Everton are relegated or not,  as I don't see Everton relying on Big Simms to lead their attack in the premier league or promotion. Another year with Hearts and he'll be ready to go, tho I'd rather we bought him. 

 

What's his value? £3m

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Ibrahim Tall

I like Simms and while he’d be a brillant signing for us I think a some are underestimating the gap between us and Everton/where Everton should be. 
If they go down they’ll likely spunk a fortune to go back up, not rely on a guy that’s scored a handful of goals in the SPL. If they say up, they’ll again be targeting European qualification like they do every year. They’ve been abysmal this season but they’ve spent about £600m in the last 6 years, Simms - like Beni, is more than likely not even in consideration.

Edited by Ibrahim Tall
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Genuinely think Simms will be a brilliant player and I hope we can hang onto him for another season. If we win the cup and he sees the cup celebrations he might not want to leave. 

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bobby bombscare

To me, at this point in his career, Simms is a player you would see playing for the OF looking to get a move to an English prem club for 1st team football, that is the kind of quality he is. 
 

If we are honest about wanting to challenge the OF, then this is exactly the type of player we should be looking at! We should be doing what the OF do and using European football as a carrot on the stick to increase peoples awareness of them knowing that a few good games in Europe could get them a move to a big club. (Or in his case, a move into the first team at Everton if we can only get another loan) 

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FarmerTweedy
1 hour ago, feej said:

Wonder when the west coast media will start linking him with the uglies. 

Probably in the week before the cup final! 

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upgotheheads

Now that Everton have dropped into the relegation zone there could be implications for us keeping Ellis, the worst scenario being that they have to sell off their expensive players and turn to their fringe players😕.

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FarmerTweedy
46 minutes ago, Ibrahim Tall said:

I like Simms and while he’d be a brillant signing for us I think a some are underestimating the gap between us and Everton/where Everton should be. 
If they go down they’ll likely spunk a fortune to go back up, not rely on a guy that’s scored a handful of goals in the SPL. If they say up, they’ll again be targeting European qualification like they do every year. They’ve been abysmal this season but they’ve spent about £600m in the last 6 years, Simms - like Beni, is more than likely not even in consideration.

I don't think there's a single person who thinks there's any chance Everton will be relying on Simms next season, whether they stay up or go down, because relying on him suggests he'll be their main, first choice striker, and there's absolutely no chance of that.  It's entirely possible though that they'll decide he's worth having around their squad next season, even if he's only 3rd or 4th choice.

 

Another point to note, he'll still be eligible (by 5 days!) as an under 21 player under the EPL squad rules next season, so he wouldn't count towards their 25 man squad limit.

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I P Knightley
15 hours ago, schillaci said:

Ok, reverse the situation.

 

Imagine we have a player out on loan in the (Scottish) Championship really making an impression. 

 

Two responses: get him back now, or he's found his level, let him go to whoever.

 

How many loan players have ever come back, and been a hit?

Good post.

 

I have no data to hand so this is just gut feeling but how many players at any level have been loaned out (for whatever reason) and then come back to set the heather alight for their parent club? My guess is that it's very few and that a 'successful' loan is one that leads to a transfer from the parent club to a lower club, whether that's the loanee club (i.e. Hearts) or another that sits below the level of the parent club.

 

In short, if we don't take Simms (either with a loan extension or a permanent deal), I think it likely that Everton would be looking to ship him to a championship club.

 

 

15 hours ago, PaddysBar said:


IF we can get anywhere near championship level wages he’d be nuts to choose a Cardiff etc over us.  
 

A pretty poor league, 46 games of drudgery compared to Scottish cup finals and Europe. 

Europe's the real fly in the ointment. If we had Simms up until Christmas, it could only do good things for his market value. But, ultimately, if he's let go by Everton, he (or his agent/family) should be weighing up the realistic prospects for his career earnings.

 

Hearts can't afford to pay championship wages. If we were to do so for Simms, there would be half a dozen other players knocking on the door to ask for similar. Like it or not, these guys are out to coin in as much as they can over a period of about 14 years. It's a job and, much like many jobs, unless you're truly exceptional, you have to put up with drudgery.

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I know we can't get ahead of ourselves or risk our future for one player BUT ... with the amount of money coming into our club now, why can't we make a marquee signing?  I doubt Everton would be asking for millions and he's exactly the kind of player we need to push on.

Edited by JayTeeJnr
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BackOfTheNet
11 hours ago, jamborich said:

Wasn’t sure at first but he has changed my mind brilliant get him signed 


Just want to respond to this, as it’s a less often travelled path on here to admit maybe have gotten it wrong at first. (I know this wasn’t an admission of that per se)

 

Just highlighting it as there were plenty calling him “another huddie” and saying he has a touch of an elephant etc. These people are mostly silent now and will likely still stubbornly hold onto that view and come out of the woodwork the next average performance (someone of his age and professional experience) will inevitably have.

 

So highlighting/applauding folk who have the ability to change their minds on a player.

Edited by BackOfTheNet
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Echo ‘back of the net’s’ comments Hearts cannot afford to buy the finished product - not on fees or or wage demands. Many posters have a belief that one miss / one poor pass or even game is sufficient to write a player off. We have to tolerate the odd wayward shot, pass etc it is not as if we are all 100% correct in every decision we make personally!!!

 

If we look at the ugly sisters and what they have spent on rank rotten footballers - Barkas millions for a replacement for Craig Gordon who they let go for free….need I say more, probably not we are shopping often in the good stores discount basket in terms of our search for quality at reasonable prices we get gems like Ellis and fatally flaws too….  Breaking the bank to sign a headline grabbing finished article is somewhere we should not go when this season has proven if the right back room is there doing the research and making the phone calls we can make significant progress at reasonable costs, building a team, a collective buy in to the belief and vision - all we need now is the social media terrorists calm down, pause for breath and let the HMFC collective do their job. 

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Unfortunately for us, Everton will be looking at how he is doing and see the videos of the goals he has scored - the last couple have been quality strikes that make him look like a pretty top player. Damned if we do and damned if we dont, as each time he scores goals like he's been doing then his parent club bangs his worth up both in financial terms and reasoning for keeping/playing - especially in a lower division ...............(Ideally in the final which is a showcase game that will be watched by Everton contacts - Hearts win 1-0 and Simms has a one off crap game while missing a couple of sitters.....so his worth to Everton bottoms out) 

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1 hour ago, Lfhearts said:

Nathan Patterson dear oh dear, kickback experts dreaming yet again.

While I think this is highly unlikely, it is not beyond the realms of.

The Uglies sign players from other clubs even if it does nothing else but weaken the selling club.

Why did Everton buy NP if he was not 1st team ready?

Possibly to develop him but also they have acquired a good young prospect at a knock down price and grabbed him before anyone else does.  His immediate development could happen in Liverpool (reserves?) or it could take place nearer his family home with the added prospect of further experience in Europe.  That would be a matter for discussion between club and player and more so if he's maybe not settling into Scouse life.

As I said it may be unlikely but not something to be ruled out.

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Which one of you was it logging into the Everton forum to ask about Ellis halfway through the Merseyside Derby? 😂

Screenshot_20220425-125604.png

Screenshot_20220425-125621.png

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Dick Dastardly

I would definitely want to keep him and hopefully we do. If we don't i do feel we will manage to get someone capable of replacing him though. Full faith in the recruitment department, something i haven't felt for years. 

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john thomas
3 hours ago, Lfhearts said:

Nathan Patterson dear oh dear, kickback experts dreaming yet again.

Nathan Patterson/Everton ?

What have I missed ?

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My gut feeling is Everton will loan us Simms to Christmas 

then depending on how we are doing in Europe, they may extend to the seasons end or recall if he is exceeding expectations 

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It's hard to know exactly what sort of a fee a club like Everton would put on him. I've really got no idea these days what a laddie like him is worth. Has anyone got a clue?

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