Europa league/conference 22/23 - Zurich v Hearts

[The Hogfather]

29 minutes ago, adso7 said:

We are debating this in our whatsapp chat.  Where does the additional UCL place go if not to Scotland? The Europa League place is already factored into the draw meaning Scotland's second place would now be unallocated...

Someone further down the co-efficient who would have been guaranteed a group stage spot would drop down into the qualifiers I imagine. 
 

If Liverpool win the Champions League, 5th won’t get Englands 4th spot. 

[FarmerTweedy]

1 hour ago, adso7 said:

We are debating this in our whatsapp chat.  Where does the additional UCL place go if not to Scotland? The Europa League place is already factored into the draw meaning Scotland's second place would now be unallocated...

It goes to the highest ranked country that doesn't already have an automatic group stage place for its league winner. 

[JimmyCant]

19 minutes ago, FarmerTweedy said:

It goes to the highest ranked country that doesn't already have an automatic group stage place for its league winner. 

Trabzonspor I believe will benefit

[RobNox]

1 hour ago, adso7 said:

We are debating this in our whatsapp chat.  Where does the additional UCL place go if not to Scotland? The Europa League place is already factored into the draw meaning Scotland's second place would now be unallocated...

There is no additional UCL place.  Celtic and Rangers will get the 2 UCL places allocated to Scotland.  If Rangers win the Europa League they'll go into the ECL group stages instead of the qualifying rounds (I'm assuming Celtic win the league, which seems likely).  The only impact of Rangers winning the Europa League will be that the lowest ranked team that was in line to make the UCL group stages will give up their place to Rangers and end up in the final qualifying round.

 

The only way Rangers winning the Europa League would end up with Scotland getting a third UCL place would be if Rangers finished outside the top two in the league. 

[Heartsmad1874]

6 hours ago, RobNox said:

There is no additional UCL place.  Celtic and Rangers will get the 2 UCL places allocated to Scotland.  If Rangers win the Europa League they'll go into the ECL group stages instead of the qualifying rounds (I'm assuming Celtic win the league, which seems likely).  The only impact of Rangers winning the Europa League will be that the lowest ranked team that was in line to make the UCL group stages will give up their place to Rangers and end up in the final qualifying round.

 

The only way Rangers winning the Europa League would end up with Scotland getting a third UCL place would be if Rangers finished outside the top two in the league. 

What? Nobody has to give up anything, the lowest ranked team is guaranteed it and so are the winners of the Europa League. If what you say did happen Celtic would be the worst ranked at this moment in time. 
 

Thankfully there will be no uproar as that just isn't going to happen. Rangers are due to enter QR3 League Path of Champions League at the moment however if they won the Europa they'd take the allocated slot for the holders of Europa in the Group Stage, Pot One.

 

They'd replace Rangers in QR3 with a team from QR2.

Edited May 6, 2022 by Heartsmad1874

[John Rambo]

Given the result last night for sevco, Scotland could have 3 teams in some form of Euro league action until Christmas. While I am only concerned about Hearts and having a go at whatever league we are in, Scottish teams really need to make hay now and build the co-efficient.

 

With Russia knackered for another season and unable to do anything until at least 2023-24, they will not improve their standing. Ukrainian teams may also struggle for obvious reasons. Time then to grasp the opportunities and build. From our point of view we really must capitalise, embrace the Euro games but, more importantly finish no lower than 3rd again next season; while always looking to finish in the top one.

 

Improved performances from all Scottish clubs will see us get more direct entry to leagues and more places in the bigger competitions; improving the co-efficient and increasing revenue. I've posted before, the future is very bright for the club, we just need to be more consistent in terms of league placing and qualifying for European competition.

 

As others have noted, I cannot wait to go on a wee Euro jaunt and have some European nights at Tynecastle. The atmosphere looked electric for sevco last night, imagine a packed Tynie, raucous atmosphere and a Hearts team hungry to impress.

 

Can't wait!

[Tom Hardy’s Dug]

Good post John Rambo

[Heartsmad1874]

4 minutes ago, John Rambo said:

Given the result last night for sevco, Scotland could have 3 teams in some form of Euro league action until Christmas. While I am only concerned about Hearts and having a go at whatever league we are in, Scottish teams really need to make hay now and build the co-efficient.

 

With Russia knackered for another season and unable to do anything until at least 2023-24, they will not improve their standing. Ukrainian teams may also struggle for obvious reasons. Time then to grasp the opportunities and build. From our point of view we really must capitalise, embrace the Euro games but, more importantly finish no lower than 3rd again next season; while always looking to finish in the top one.

 

Improved performances from all Scottish clubs will see us get more direct entry to leagues and more places in the bigger competitions; improving the co-efficient and increasing revenue. I've posted before, the future is very bright for the club, we just need to be more consistent in terms of league placing and qualifying for European competition.

 

As others have noted, I cannot wait to go on a wee Euro jaunt and have some European nights at Tynecastle. The atmosphere looked electric for sevco last night, imagine a packed Tynie, raucous atmosphere and a Hearts team hungry to impress.

 

Can't wait!

Three teams will be in European group stages regardless of last nights result/Rangers winning the EL.  Rangers right now being in QR3 guarantees them at worst Europa League group stage football. 
 

Do agree though need to keep the coefficient high and push on towards catching Portugal.

 

Excited for atleast 4 away trips in Europe and 4 nights under the lights at Tynecastle.

Edited May 6, 2022 by Heartsmad1874

[John Rambo]

2 minutes ago, Heartsmad1874 said:

Three teams will be in European group stages regardless of last nights result/Rangers winning the EL.  Rangers right now being in QR3 guarantees them at worst Europa League group stage football. 
 

Do agree though need to keep the coefficient high and push on towards catching Portugal.

 

Excited for atleast 4 away trips in Europe and 4 nights under the lights at Tynecastle.

With you on the trips.

 

May not manage all, nor all at Tynie but I have a wee fund on the go that should see me and the youngest to at least a couple away.

 

Don't think I've been this excited for a few years...

 

Roll on August, Big Cup win first please!

[Heartsmad1874]

3 minutes ago, John Rambo said:

With you on the trips.

 

May not manage all, nor all at Tynie but I have a wee fund on the go that should see me and the youngest to at least a couple away.

 

Don't think I've been this excited for a few years...

 

Roll on August, Big Cup win first please!

Indeed hope we get a few good and affordable trips. I should hopefully have enough saved for 4 reasonably priced trips but one in the arse end of Europe could blow that out the water! 
 

Just wish it was August right after May 21st  

[John Rambo]

4 minutes ago, Heartsmad1874 said:

Indeed hope we get a few good and affordable trips. I should hopefully have enough saved for 4 reasonably priced trips but one in the arse end of Europe could blow that out the water! 
 

Just wish it was August right after May 21st  

Agreed.

 

We don't want Alashkert or a team from that end of Europe. Sweden, Denmark etc or a nice wee trip to Spain or Portugal will do just fine. We rocked up in Braga and did ok a few years ago after all...

[FarmerTweedy]

11 hours ago, FarmerTweedy said:

It goes to the highest ranked country that doesn't already have an automatic group stage place for its league winner. 

Apologies folks, I was slavering there, which is what comes of trying to follow a jkb thread while also in the middle of a couple of whatsapp conversations and trying to watch telly all at the same time!

 

I've actually described there what would happen if the Europa League is won by a team that already qualifies for next season's Champions League group stage through their domestic league, which isn't going to happen as neither finalist is going to manage that!

 

In truth, I'm not exactly sure what will happen if the rangers win the Europa League.  I know they'll take the Champions League group stage spot that's reserved for the Europa League winners, but I'm not sure exactly what will happen regarding their Champions League Q3 spot, although I do know we won't get it!  What will happen is that the highest ranked country who's league runners up start in round Q2 (Ukraine*) will get bumped up to start in Q3 instead, but that will leave Q2 short of a team!  EIther the next ranked country (Turkey) will also get bumped up into round Q3, leaving only one tie in Q2, or Serbia (ranked 16th) will get a Q2 place for their league runners up, instead of them going into Europa Conference League qualifying.  Given that Russia's exclusion saw two countries (Austria and Scotland) bumped up from Q2 to Q3 instead of just Austria getting bumped up to Q3 and Serbia getting a Q2 place, I think it's more likely that Rangers winning it would see both Ukraine and Turkey being bumped up to Q3 rather than Serbia benefitting!   

 

* If Ukrainian clubs aren't able to take part, that will complicate things further!

Edited May 6, 2022 by FarmerTweedy

[FarmerTweedy]

9 hours ago, RobNox said:

There is no additional UCL place.  Celtic and Rangers will get the 2 UCL places allocated to Scotland.  If Rangers win the Europa League they'll go into the ECL group stages instead of the qualifying rounds (I'm assuming Celtic win the league, which seems likely).  The only impact of Rangers winning the Europa League will be that the lowest ranked team that was in line to make the UCL group stages will give up their place to Rangers and end up in the final qualifying round.

 

The only way Rangers winning the Europa League would end up with Scotland getting a third UCL place would be if Rangers finished outside the top two in the league. 

Strictly speaking, that won't happen, as a group stage spot is reserved for the Europa League winners, so nobody that's in line to make the group stage has to give up a spot for them!  What actually happens (regardless of whether the rangers or Frankfurt win the final) is that the highest ranked team which was not in line to get a group stage would have been hoping the Europa League was won by a team that also made the group stage through their domestic league, as that would have freed up a group stage place.  As it is, with Liverpool and Real Madrid in the Champions League final, the place reserved in next season's group stage for this season's Champions League winners won't be used, so the highest ranked team not in line for a group stage place (the champions of Ukraine*) will get bumped up directly into the group stage.  Turkey would be next in line for a place if the Europa League was also won by a team that qualified through their domestic league, but as neither finalist is going to manage that, they won't get lucky!

 

* Again, the Ukraine situation probably has question marks over their ability to participate!

[Marty-man]

Don't know if this has been discussed here before, but I was listening to one of Donkey and Laurie's recent podcasts, where they were talking about the actual "benefits" we will accrue during our Euro travels next season. They were basically asking the question, is it better for the club to not qualify for Europa, and then drop down to the conference, where we will have the same amount of guaranteed games, and not much less for each win/draw - but a far better chance of racking up points and hard cash for the club.

I tend to look at the big picture, and think it's not so crazy an idea.

According to Barry Anderson - Playing in the Europa League group comes with an instant prize of £3.2m. In the Conference, it’s around £2.7m. However, if you lose the Europa play-off and drop down into the conference, you get a parachute payment of 250 grand. So in reality, the "instant prize" for the Conference is £3m. SO not much difference.

A Europa League group victory pays £475,000 and a draw £160,000. The Conference League pays £420,000 per win and £140,000 for a draw. Again - not much difference.

You see where I am going with this? How many wins will we expect to get in Europa League as opposed to Conference? It is entirely possible we could exit the Europa league with hee-haw. Whereas the chance of racking up some decent coin in the Conference is higher.

Steady as she goes - build up the funds. Guarantee at least Conference each year. Make more money from that, to help us get closer to the uglies. THEN start thinking about the Europa League and build more from there. and on and on

This will take a a couple of years, but we have a chance to get something substantive out of these European trips - rather than getting pumped by Napoli, Galatasary, or Lazio and gaining hee-haw

Anyway, just thought it was an interesting point ...



 

Edited May 6, 2022 by Marty-man

[Howdy Doody Jambo]

We have no fears of foreign players 

Like Boniek, Rossi and Tardelli 

Whilst overseas 

The H1b5 will be in

Portobelli 

Edited May 6, 2022 by The Maroon Pound

[Restonbabe]

Aim to play in europa attracts better players 

[BigAlim]

Would rather play in the more prestigious tournament personally

[JFK-1]

6 minutes ago, BigAlim said:

Would rather play in the more prestigious tournament personally

 

Definitely, more money, more glamour, more value added to players who do well. It's a no brainer, but quite a tall order. Going to need a bit of luck in the draw, there can be some real giants in there.

Edited May 6, 2022 by JFK-1

[JFK-1]

1 minute ago, jonesy said:

Should we tank the Europa play-off then?

 

Marty, your post is sincere and reasonable, but the idea that we should avoid trying to play in a more prestigious competition because we might get a kicking from some teams that only just missed out on the CL is mad.

 

Always do your best, and always play to win.

 

We are Hearts and we fear no one. Robbie Neilson himself said that, and I hope that's the approach we take going into a match against whoever we play.

 

Though I just thought of another facet of his idea, probably would be harder to get points in the Europa, might be easier in the Conference.

 

I'm thinking of the coefficient, it has been built more or less entirely by the OF. Where could it go if others started adding some points?

[BackOfTheNet]

24 minutes ago, Marty-man said:

Don't know if this has been discussed here before, but I was listening to one of Donkey and Laurie's recent podcasts, where they were talking about the actual "benefits" we will accrue during our Euro travels next season. They were basically asking the question, is it better for the club to not qualify for Europa, and then drop down to the conference, where we will have the same amount of guaranteed games, and not much less for each win/draw - but a far better chance of racking up points and hard cash for the club.

I tend to look at the big picture, and think it's not so crazy an idea.

According to Barry Anderson - Playing in the Europa League group comes with an instant prize of £3.2m. In the Conference, it’s around £2.7m. However, if you lose the Europa play-off and drop down into the conference, you get a parachute payment of 250 grand. So in reality, the "instant prize" for the Conference is £3m. SO not much difference.

A Europa League group victory pays £475,000 and a draw £160,000. The Conference League pays £420,000 per win and £140,000 for a draw. Again - not much difference.

You see where I am going with this? How many wins will we expect to get in Europa League as opposed to Conference? It is entirely possible we could exit the Europa league with hee-haw. Whereas the chance of racking up some decent coin in the Conference is higher.

Steady as she goes - build up the funds. Guarantee at least Conference each year. Make more money from that, to help us get closer to the uglies. THEN start thinking about the Europa League and build more from there. and on and on

This will take a a couple of years, but we have a chance to get something substantive out of these European trips - rather than getting pumped by Napoli, Galatasary, or Lazio and gaining hee-haw

Anyway, just thought it was an interesting point ...



 

Personally I think it’s a win-win all round. If we qualify for Europa, yes then chances of points and cash will be significantly reduced, but there will be a prestige, we’ll be on the map of European and global watchers of the sport so our profile will increase immensely and in return that will mean we can attract a better sort of player not just in the future but for the upcoming season. The better players we have, more chance we have of securing Europe regularly and cutting the gap to those two.

 

However, if we do drop to the Conference, then all of the above (money, prestige, profile and player attraction) will still be there, just on a lesser scale. It also as you say means we have a chance of gaining more money through points accumulation and maybe even a chance of progression.

 

Personally I want us to go for the Europa League as we don’t know if we’ll be in a more secure position when it comes to guarantee of European football, so let’s use that security to relax and go for it.

[Marty-man]

2 minutes ago, JFK-1 said:

 

Though I just thought of another facet of his idea, probably would be harder to get points in the Europa, might be easier in the Conference.

 

I'm thinking of the coefficient, it has been built more or less entirely by the OF. Where could it go if others started adding some points?

 

I did state that it would probably be easier to get points in the Conference, but I focussed mainly on the cash benefit that would bring. However, your point about co-efficient obviously stands as well

[JFK-1]

1 minute ago, Marty-man said:

 

I did state that it would probably be easier to get points in the Conference, but I focussed mainly on the cash benefit that would bring. However, your point about co-efficient obviously stands as well

 

I think this season in particular we have all seen how crucial that coefficient is. It's the reason Hearts are guaranteed millions of income even if not a single point were won. It can increase the wage budget by at least 50% or so.

It's not going to bridge the gap to the OF and everybody must understand that. But it can very quickly build a consistent double figure gap between 3rd and 4th.

 

Get say 3 consecutive seasons of it while no one else outside the OF does and you're creating a divide of your own. 

[Thought Police]

It might have been mentioned in the Europa/Conference League 2022/23 mega thread.

[Kiwidoug]

Isn't this such a great position to be in.  Very good OP.  

 

I'd love to see us in the group stages of the Europa League so I'm going for that.

[JFK-1]

1 minute ago, jonesy said:

It's logical enough to see the lesser tournament as a more likely points earner. But where's the guarantee of points in the Conference League? Last time we played in Europe we got papped out by the silky maestros of Birkirkara.

 

I'd rather be in with the bigger boys of the EL and the chance of some magic. I went to Basel with very little expectation and saw us come away with a famous victory. I'm pretty sure very few of us turned up at Tynie expecting us to beat Bayern. Or away in Vienna. Or Bordeaux. Or beat Stuttgart 3-2 and get eliminated on away goals. Or get very close to taking Liverpool to extra time. Or knock out Braga to qualify for the UEFA league. Or beat Atletico Madrid with Fash and JC up front. Or come within a whisker of taking a 1-0 lead into the second leg of a CL qualifier v AEK.

 

The idea of 'aiming' for a lesser competition is nuts, bud! We're Hearts, let's do this.

 

I would always prefer the more prestigious tournament too. All Scottish clubs including the OF are selling clubs. Players doing well in the Europa can tack millions on to their value when the English come looking. 

[Marty-man]

BTW - just to point out. I'm not advocating selling the jerseys and throwing the play-off. Of course, no sensible person would expect that

I'm just putting it out there, that if we do end up getting knocked out the Europa at the play-off, down into the conference, it may end up being a silver lining.

[Section Q]

On 07/05/2022 at 08:28, Marty-man said:

Don't know if this has been discussed here before, but I was listening to one of Donkey and Laurie's recent podcasts, where they were talking about the actual "benefits" we will accrue during our Euro travels next season. They were basically asking the question, is it better for the club to not qualify for Europa, and then drop down to the conference, where we will have the same amount of guaranteed games, and not much less for each win/draw - but a far better chance of racking up points and hard cash for the club.

I tend to look at the big picture, and think it's not so crazy an idea.

According to Barry Anderson - Playing in the Europa League group comes with an instant prize of £3.2m. In the Conference, it’s around £2.7m. However, if you lose the Europa play-off and drop down into the conference, you get a parachute payment of 250 grand. So in reality, the "instant prize" for the Conference is £3m. SO not much difference.

A Europa League group victory pays £475,000 and a draw £160,000. The Conference League pays £420,000 per win and £140,000 for a draw. Again - not much difference.

You see where I am going with this? How many wins will we expect to get in Europa League as opposed to Conference? It is entirely possible we could exit the Europa league with hee-haw. Whereas the chance of racking up some decent coin in the Conference is higher.

Steady as she goes - build up the funds. Guarantee at least Conference each year. Make more money from that, to help us get closer to the uglies. THEN start thinking about the Europa League and build more from there. and on and on

This will take a a couple of years, but we have a chance to get something substantive out of these European trips - rather than getting pumped by Napoli, Galatasary, or Lazio and gaining hee-haw

Anyway, just thought it was an interesting point ...



 

I think tv monney might be more for Europa.

[FarmerTweedy]

1 hour ago, Thought Police said:

It might have been mentioned in the Europa/Conference League 2022/23 mega thread.

Once or twice! 😃

 

This thread should probably be merged into that one, I think! 

 

Addressing the main point of the OP again though, the main thing that seems to have been missed is the market pool which appears to make a significant difference to the actual amount that can be made from the Europa League, but only a small difference to the amount that can be made from the Conference League (although it seems difficult if not impossible to establish a clear view of the sums involved)!

[Watt-Zeefuik]

58 minutes ago, Section Q said:

I think tv monney might be more for Europa.

 

This has come up in other threads, and it's complicated enough that it's hard to get ones head around it, but there's a lot to this.

 

Basically there's something called the "market pool" that's the total amount that UEFA collects from TV rights and then makes available for distribution. There's a ratio that's calculated based on the TV market size of each country with participating clubs at each level of the competition. That amount gets cut up based on association, and then after that it's divided among the participants at each round.

 

For the Europa League, the total pool for all countries is €139.5m. For the UECL, it's €23.5m.

 

I don't have it in me to calculate Scotland's share of that but clearly it's a lot bigger in the UEL. The kicker is if we make the UEL group stages and Rangers fall into it from their qualifiers, we have to split the TV pool money even steven with them. But if we're there by ourselves, we get it all. Likewise, if we fall into the UECL and United or Motherwell manage to make it through their qualifiers, we have to split the UECL pot with them.

 

Last thing—we get a lot of money if we manage to qualify for any knockout round, and UECL places go to 1st and 2nd group finishers in that competition but also 3rd place finishers in the UEL group stages. Looking at the teams, I don't think 3rd in the UEL is that much more of a stretch than 2nd in the UECL.

 

All this is to say, while yes, the UECL group stages are a very lovely silver lining to have and an absolutely enormous benefit to clubs like Hearts, if we get to pick, I'm pretty sure we absolutely want to be in the UEL.

[JAYEL]

No harm in having a go in both Competitions

 

Even if we only qualify in 3rd in Europa League we will end up in the Conference anyway with our pockets full

 

🇱🇻❤️🇱🇻

[Watt-Zeefuik]

On 05/05/2022 at 17:56, adso7 said:

We are debating this in our whatsapp chat.  Where does the additional UCL place go if not to Scotland? The Europa League place is already factored into the draw meaning Scotland's second place would now be unallocated...

 

As I understand it everyone in line all over Europe bumps up a place. Just as the automatic UCL spot wasn't guaranteed to the Scottish champion for next year, but they were effectively first on the waiting list if the UCL champion had already qualified and so forth.

 

Somewhere there's a team that moves likely from the third qualifying round into the playoff spot. The pages that keep track of how all this works are miles long.

[FarmerTweedy]

21 minutes ago, Led Tasso said:

 

This has come up in other threads, and it's complicated enough that it's hard to get ones head around it, but there's a lot to this.

 

Basically there's something called the "market pool" that's the total amount that UEFA collects from TV rights and then makes available for distribution. There's a ratio that's calculated based on the TV market size of each country with participating clubs at each level of the competition. That amount gets cut up based on association, and then after that it's divided among the participants at each round.

 

For the Europa League, the total pool for all countries is €139.5m. For the UECL, it's €23.5m.

 

I don't have it in me to calculate Scotland's share of that but clearly it's a lot bigger in the UEL. The kicker is if we make the UEL group stages and Rangers fall into it from their qualifiers, we have to split the TV pool money even steven with them. But if we're there by ourselves, we get it all. Likewise, if we fall into the UECL and United or Motherwell manage to make it through their qualifiers, we have to split the UECL pot with them.

 

Last thing—we get a lot of money if we manage to qualify for any knockout round, and UECL places go to 1st and 2nd group finishers in that competition but also 3rd place finishers in the UEL group stages. Looking at the teams, I don't think 3rd in the UEL is that much more of a stretch than 2nd in the UECL.

 

All this is to say, while yes, the UECL group stages are a very lovely silver lining to have and an absolutely enormous benefit to clubs like Hearts, if we get to pick, I'm pretty sure we absolutely want to be in the UEL.

From what I've seen, and it might not have been correct, if there's a two team split of the UEL market pool, it's 50/50 if neither were the cup winner, but 60/40 to the cup winner if one of them was. It didn't say whether that only applies if the cup winner actually qualified through the cup winner's spot or if it also applies if they qualified for the Champions League qualifying, lost there and then dropped into the UEL. In other words, if rangers lose the UEL final but beat us in the Scottish cup final, go into CL qualifying as Premiership runners up, lose there and drop into the Europa League group stage and we get there too, I don't know if they'd still get the 60/40 split as technically, they didn't use the cup winners spot.

 

Here's the page: https://www.football-coefficient.eu/money/

[Watt-Zeefuik]

9 minutes ago, FarmerTweedy said:

From what I've seen, and it might not have been correct, if there's a two team split of the UEL market pool, it's 50/50 if neither were the cup winner, but 60/40 to the cup winner if one of them was. It didn't say whether that only applies if the cup winner actually qualified through the cup winner's spot or if it also applies if they qualified for the Champions League qualifying, lost there and then dropped into the UEL. In other words, if rangers lose the UEL final but beat us in the Scottish cup final, go into CL qualifying as Premiership runners up, lose there and drop into the Europa League group stage and we get there too, I don't know if they'd still get the 60/40 split as technically, they didn't use the cup winners spot.

 

Here's the page: https://www.football-coefficient.eu/money/

 

Ugh. These rules.

[jambostuart]

Even a 40% share of Scotland's allocated share of the market pool would cover any wins/draws in the Conference surely? So we're better off in the EL and perhaps perversely hoping Rangers and Celtic do get in to the CL Groups then finish 4th? I grudge Rangers that sort of money because with their debts they are catchable in a couple of seasons, but from the point of view of seperating ourselves from the rest of the pack, we want Rangers and Celtic to get pumped out of CL Group stages as 4th place finishers and for Hearts to get 100% of the market pool in the EL?

 

This is such a headache I wish I was a Hibs fan so we didn't have to concern ourselves with this. Lucky them, the league cup group stages are nowhere near as complicated. 

Edited May 7, 2022 by jambostuart

[Watt-Zeefuik]

13 minutes ago, jambostuart said:

Even a 40% share of Scotland's allocated share of the market pool would cover any wins/draws in the Conference surely? So we're better off in the EL and perhaps perversely hoping Rangers and Celtic do get in to the CL Groups then finish 4th? I grudge Rangers that sort of money because with their debts they are catchable in a couple of seasons, but from the point of view of seperating ourselves from the rest of the pack, we want Rangers and Celtic to get pumped out of CL Group stages as 4th place finishers and for Hearts to get 100% of the market pool in the EL?

 

This is such a headache I wish I was a Hibs fan so we didn't have to concern ourselves with this. Lucky them, the league cup group stages are nowhere near as complicated. 

Now that you mention it, it would be pretty great if we won the cup and they dropped into the EL, so we got 60% of the TV pool and they got 40%.

 

[jambostuart]

8 minutes ago, Led Tasso said:

Now that you mention it, it would be pretty great if we won the cup and they dropped into the EL, so we got 60% of the TV pool and they got 40%.

 

 

Yeah, I guess the best scenario is they lose to Frankfurt, get gubbed in the SC by the Famous, lose their CL qualifiers, then we are both in the EL but we get more of the market share than them...

 

Rangers are losing money hand over fist right now despite their European success and I genuinely believe the right recruitment for us and them losing out on CL money could be a real game changer for us in narrowing that gap. However our main priority should be distancing ourselves from the 9 below us so as much money as possible from Europe is a must.

[RobNox]

9 minutes ago, Led Tasso said:

Now that you mention it, it would be pretty great if we won the cup and they dropped into the EL, so we got 60% of the TV pool and they got 40%.

 

Financially for us, it would be even better if they won the Europa League and go into the CL next season, and we got through the final Europa League qualifying round and got 100% of the Market Pool money.  It obviously wouldn't help us trying to close the gap on the OF, but would certainly help us try to widen the gap on the bottom 9.

[Section Q]

On 07/05/2022 at 10:43, Led Tasso said:

 

This has come up in other threads, and it's complicated enough that it's hard to get ones head around it, but there's a lot to this.

 

Basically there's something called the "market pool" that's the total amount that UEFA collects from TV rights and then makes available for distribution. There's a ratio that's calculated based on the TV market size of each country with participating clubs at each level of the competition. That amount gets cut up based on association, and then after that it's divided among the participants at each round.

 

For the Europa League, the total pool for all countries is €139.5m. For the UECL, it's €23.5m.

 

I don't have it in me to calculate Scotland's share of that but clearly it's a lot bigger in the UEL. The kicker is if we make the UEL group stages and Rangers fall into it from their qualifiers, we have to split the TV pool money even steven with them. But if we're there by ourselves, we get it all. Likewise, if we fall into the UECL and United or Motherwell manage to make it through their qualifiers, we have to split the UECL pot with them.

 

Last thing—we get a lot of money if we manage to qualify for any knockout round, and UECL places go to 1st and 2nd group finishers in that competition but also 3rd place finishers in the UEL group stages. Looking at the teams, I don't think 3rd in the UEL is that much more of a stretch than 2nd in the UECL.

 

All this is to say, while yes, the UECL group stages are a very lovely silver lining to have and an absolutely enormous benefit to clubs like Hearts, if we get to pick, I'm pretty sure we absolutely want to be in the UEL.

Cheers for that.

[Heartsmad1874]

We have every chance of making the Europa League group stages with the luck of the draw we could be up against the likes of The New Saints, Shamrock Rovers or TNS and even the more trickier ones could be the likes of APOEL, Partizan. If we lose then we have another 6 games to play still against teams of a good to average standard.

 

 

[thejoff]

Remember even if we do struggle in Europa League we would only need to finish 3rd out of 4 teams to go through to knock out of the Conference League. Gives you two bites of the cherry.

[DMac-89]

The market pool question has come up a lot. In the event that Hearts qualified into the Europa League, finished 3rd in group and dropped into ECL, would they then be entitled to a share of that market pool for both comps? I don't hold out much hope for Utd/County/Well to make the groups so be curious if anyone can confirm.

 

I feel like thats our ideal scenario in general at this stage but be curious if there is a financial sweetener in the mix as well.

[JFK-1]

1 hour ago, thejoff said:

Remember even if we do struggle in Europa League we would only need to finish 3rd out of 4 teams to go through to knock out of the Conference League. Gives you two bites of the cherry.

 

Like Celtic this year, who were then soundly cuffed 5-1 on aggregate by Bodø/Glimt. There will be little if any easy rides in the Euro arena.

[merseyjambo]

8 hours ago, Led Tasso said:

 

This has come up in other threads, and it's complicated enough that it's hard to get ones head around it, but there's a lot to this.

 

Basically there's something called the "market pool" that's the total amount that UEFA collects from TV rights and then makes available for distribution. There's a ratio that's calculated based on the TV market size of each country with participating clubs at each level of the competition. That amount gets cut up based on association, and then after that it's divided among the participants at each round.

 

For the Europa League, the total pool for all countries is €139.5m. For the UECL, it's €23.5m.

 

I don't have it in me to calculate Scotland's share of that but clearly it's a lot bigger in the UEL. The kicker is if we make the UEL group stages and Rangers fall into it from their qualifiers, we have to split the TV pool money even steven with them. But if we're there by ourselves, we get it all. Likewise, if we fall into the UECL and United or Motherwell manage to make it through their qualifiers, we have to split the UECL pot with them.

 

Last thing—we get a lot of money if we manage to qualify for any knockout round, and UECL places go to 1st and 2nd group finishers in that competition but also 3rd place finishers in the UEL group stages. Looking at the teams, I don't think 3rd in the UEL is that much more of a stretch than 2nd in the UECL.

 

All this is to say, while yes, the UECL group stages are a very lovely silver lining to have and an absolutely enormous benefit to clubs like Hearts, if we get to pick, I'm pretty sure we absolutely want to be in the UEL.

I’m sure that it was mentioned on here that it was over £2 million that would go to Scottish clubs this year.

 

Another reason to perhaps want Rangers to win the thing this year.

 

Being Scotlands only representatives in Europa League next year could be worth somewhere in region of £5.5m before a ball has been kicked and a seat has been sat in.

 

3 game ticket package deal for £100 x 15k buying into that is another circa 1.5m. 
 

Serious game changing money for the club and should hopefully push us closer to first and second and away from the 

likes of Hibs and Aberdeen.

Edited May 7, 2022 by merseyjambo

[Tom Hardy’s Dug]

10 hours ago, JFK-1 said:

 

Though I just thought of another facet of his idea, probably would be harder to get points in the Europa, might be easier in the Conference.

 

I'm thinking of the coefficient, it has been built more or less entirely by the OF. Where could it go if others started adding some points?

Same coefficient points per win in EUL and ECL also.

 

Bizarrely looking at potential opponents in our play off it’s fair to say, without being a dick, we look like have a decent chance of getting a team we could beat and get into the UEL groups. That’s pretty mental.

 

Then there is the dilemma - do we leave a couple of transfers to the very end of the window knowing that we may get two class players for the Europa if in the groups?

 

Prestige and profile v better chances of bringing in more money?

 

Nice problem to have I guess.

 

One question I have is - what chances are there of any of our games being on TV? Or do all British teams get covered?

[JFK-1]

Just now, DMac-89 said:

I don't hold out much hope for Utd/County/Well to make the groups

 

I don't either, and if we're to maintain the coefficient long term we need more than two chipping in because we now have an extra entrant. Every point earned is divided at the end of the season by the number of starting teams. Even if they all go out first round.

 

So every 1 point earned becomes 0.2 points. We're talking fractions of a point to retain the country status so every single point anybody can contribute is invaluable. And while yes there are good teams on the path to even conference groups, surely at least one of the others can pull it off just once. 

 

As for Hearts this is a serious chance to consolidate a position as a 3rd force as far ahead of 4th as the OF have been of 3rd.

 

The current league table reads Hearts 17 points ahead of DU with 3 games remaining.  I don't think I ever recall such a gap between 3rd and 4th which suggests to me this side is already comfortably superior to the rest below.

I know there are dreams of challenging the OF to some degree but that's unrealistic at this time and the most urgent immediately achievable objective is a stranglehold on 3rd as dominant as the OF monopoly of the top two spots.

That's immediately and realistically achievable with a good side already in place and this Euro windfall. Imagine the consequences of that if the windfall were collected in consecutive seasons while others did not follow suit.

Then there's the added twist of the new importance of the SC in the mix. It's crucial to be comfortably better than the rest and preferably avoid the OF till the latter stages of the SC, preferably the final. Like this year.

[davemclaren]

10 hours ago, jonesy said:

It's logical enough to see the lesser tournament as a more likely points earner. But where's the guarantee of points in the Conference League? Last time we played in Europe we got papped out by the silky maestros of Birkirkara.

 

I'd rather be in with the bigger boys of the EL and the chance of some magic. I went to Basel with very little expectation and saw us come away with a famous victory. I'm pretty sure very few of us turned up at Tynie expecting us to beat Bayern. Or away in Vienna. Or Bordeaux. Or beat Stuttgart 3-2 and get eliminated on away goals. Or get very close to taking Liverpool to extra time. Or knock out Braga to qualify for the UEFA league. Or beat Atletico Madrid with Fash and JC up front. Or come within a whisker of taking a 1-0 lead into the second leg of a CL qualifier v AEK.

 

The idea of 'aiming' for a lesser competition is nuts, bud! We're Hearts, let's do this.

I agree. We have to aspire to play at the highest level we possibly can. 

[JFK-1]

16 minutes ago, Tom Hardy’s Dug said:

One question I have is - what chances are there of any of our games being on TV? Or do all British teams get covered?

 

I think all games get covered regardless of national association.

[johnking123]

All teams will be shown on group stage. We could make a bit extra tv money from the playoff for European league game.

[Tom Hardy’s Dug]

And we’ll be under VAR as well I presume. Good that we get used to it before the rest of the league below us I guess.

[JimmyCant]

Looks like Manchester United and Tottenham Hotspur are destined for the Europa league group stages.

 

imagine 6000 jambos at OT 😌