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Europa league/conference 22/23 - Linfield/Zurich v Hearts


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Heartsmad1874
1 minute ago, RobNox said:

All this talk of potential Europa Conference opponents, are we writing-off the Europa League qualifying round?


Not atall, its a free hit now we have that consolation of Conference group stage and with a bit of luck we could get a winnable tie. We've came up against much harder opponents in the Europa play off round than the potential ones i've mentioned above.

 

Thread should be renamed imo👀👀

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  • davemclaren changed the title to Europa league/conference 22/23
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Danny1874

I heard something about how our european place could be in danger if Villarreal were to win the champions league? Can anyone shed any light on this? Please tell me it's not the case

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5 minutes ago, Danny1874 said:

I heard something about how our european place could be in danger if Villarreal were to win the champions league? Can anyone shed any light on this? Please tell me it's not the case

No.

As it stands, Spain will have 4 CL group stage places. If Villarreal win the EL, Spain will get an extra GS place as Villarreal are outside the top 4 in Spain.

It would mean Scotland's GS place would go to them and the Scottish team would go into the CL play off stage.

It doesn't affect our EL play off game, which is guaranteed !

 

So, em, c'mon, Villarreal !

😂

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Danny1874
2 minutes ago, Boab said:

No.

As it stands, Spain will have 4 CL group stage places. If Villarreal win the EL, Spain will get an extra GS place as Villarreal are outside the top 4 in Spain.

It would mean Scotland's GS place would go to them and the Scottish team would go into the CL play off stage.

It doesn't affect our EL play off game, which is guaranteed !

 

So, em, c'mon, Villarreal !

😂

 

Thank **** for that 😆

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davemclaren
Just now, Danny1874 said:

 

Thank **** for that 😆

You had me worried for a while there. 🥸

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Commander lovemuscle

sorry if already asked, will we be able to play our european games at tynecastle or have to play at murryfield ?

Edited by Commander lovemuscle
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20 minutes ago, Danny1874 said:

 

Thank **** for that 😆

Should have said CL win for Villarreal not EL, but it still stands.

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FarmerTweedy
7 hours ago, Danny1874 said:

I heard something about how our european place could be in danger if Villarreal were to win the champions league? Can anyone shed any light on this? Please tell me it's not the case

It's drivel.

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FarmerTweedy
On 24/04/2022 at 17:18, RobNox said:

All this talk of potential Europa Conference opponents, are we writing-off the Europa League qualifying round?

It's not just talk of potential Europa Conference League opponents, it's also talk of potential Europa League playoff round opponents. 

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Heartsmad1874
2 minutes ago, FarmerTweedy said:

It's not just talk of potential Europa Conference League opponents, it's also talk of potential Europa League playoff round opponents. 


Don't think anyones even looked at potential Conference league group stage opponents yet tbf😂

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FarmerTweedy
7 hours ago, Boab said:

No.

As it stands, Spain will have 4 CL group stage places. If Villarreal win the EL, Spain will get an extra GS place as Villarreal are outside the top 4 in Spain.

It would mean Scotland's GS place would go to them and the Scottish team would go into the CL play off stage.

It doesn't affect our EL play off game, which is guaranteed !

 

So, em, c'mon, Villarreal !

😂

Firstly, Scotland doesn't actually have a Champions League group stage place at the moment, our champions are due to start in the Champions League playoff round although if, as seems highly likely, Russian clubs are excluded next season, and the mechanism for filling the gaps is simply pushing other countries up the coefficient table, we will get one.

 

Secondly, no country, not Scotland nor anyone else, will have a GS place taken away from them because of who wins this season's European competitions. There are spaces already reserved in the CL group stage for this season's winners and Europa League winner.

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26 minutes ago, FarmerTweedy said:

Firstly, Scotland doesn't actually have a Champions League group stage place at the moment, our champions are due to start in the Champions League playoff round although if, as seems highly likely, Russian clubs are excluded next season, and the mechanism for filling the gaps is simply pushing other countries up the coefficient table, we will get one.

 

Secondly, no country, not Scotland nor anyone else, will have a GS place taken away from them because of who wins this season's European competitions. There are spaces already reserved in the CL group stage for this season's winners and Europa League winner.

Thanks, mate, for info.

I was, though, under the impression that if Scotland got that group place and sevco won the EL, we wouldn't get two group stage places. 

That contradicts what you are saying above as far as I read it.

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I was under the impression that if Liverpool, Man City it Real Madrid won the CL, Scotland would take that group place as they have all qualified for the groups domestically.

Wasn't aware that the Russian angle had any bearing.

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Heartsmad1874
3 minutes ago, Boab said:

I was under the impression that if Liverpool, Man City it Real Madrid won the CL, Scotland would take that group place as they have all qualified for the groups domestically.

Wasn't aware that the Russian angle had any bearing.


At the moment it doesn't as noone knows whats going to happen with Russian teams if they were banned there place would only drop to Scotland if Villareal won the Champions League, if however City/Liverpool/Real Madrid win it and Russias champions are ejected out Scotland and Ukraine would find themselves with a group stage place, if Ukraine teams aren't able to compete in Europe yet their place would drop again to Turkeys league winners.

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Heartsmad1874

Heres the coefficent list, Scotland currently sit in 11th however next season i believe we jump above Austria into 10th.

 

And then also the association allocation. Currently Celtic and Ukraines Champions due to enter Play off round. City,Liverpool and Madrid are pretty much guaranteed to qualify for next years competition through their own league position. Only threat to Scotland getting shifted up the allocation is if Villareal somehow won the UCL as they currently aren't in the league position required in La Liga.
 

 

 

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Mr Elwood P
1 hour ago, FarmerTweedy said:

Firstly, Scotland doesn't actually have a Champions League group stage place at the moment, our champions are due to start in the Champions League playoff round although if, as seems highly likely, Russian clubs are excluded next season, and the mechanism for filling the gaps is simply pushing other countries up the coefficient table, we will get one.

 

Secondly, no country, not Scotland nor anyone else, will have a GS place taken away from them because of who wins this season's European competitions. There are spaces already reserved in the CL group stage for this season's winners and Europa League winner.


Why have the Scottish media been talking about the automatic Champions League spot since August 2021 then? 

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Tom Hardy’s Dug
On 24/04/2022 at 17:18, RobNox said:

All this talk of potential Europa Conference opponents, are we writing-off the Europa League qualifying round?


I wouldn’t get too hung up on Europa league as the financial difference compared with the Conference is minimal and we’d have much better odds of winning games in the conference.

 

So we’d do better financially by not qualifying for Europa League - not that we should not do our best to qualify….

 

The prestige would be nice and the away trips would be better. We’d just be a lot less likely to win or draw any games 😂

Edited by Tom Hardy’s Dug
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16 minutes ago, Mr Elwood P said:


Why have the Scottish media been talking about the automatic Champions League spot since August 2021 then? 

 

It was probably based on the assumption that the winner of the CL will have already qualified through their league, but with Villareal still in the mix its not guatanteed, however unlikely. 

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Mr Elwood P
26 minutes ago, Tom Hardy’s Dug said:


I wouldn’t get too hung up on Europa league as the financial difference compared with the Conference is minimal and we’d have much better odds of winning games in the conference.

 

So we’d do better financially by not qualifying for Europa League - not that we should not do our best to qualify….

 

The prestige would be nice and the away trips would be better. We’d just be a lot less likely to win or draw any games 😂


Not technically true because 3rd place in the Europa League drops down to the Europa Conference so we could end up with UEFA football post Xmas ..

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FarmerTweedy
2 hours ago, Boab said:

Thanks, mate, for info.

I was, though, under the impression that if Scotland got that group place and sevco won the EL, we wouldn't get two group stage places. 

That contradicts what you are saying above as far as I read it.

Yes, we'd get two group stage places.

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FarmerTweedy
1 hour ago, Boab said:

I was under the impression that if Liverpool, Man City it Real Madrid won the CL, Scotland would take that group place as they have all qualified for the groups domestically.

Wasn't aware that the Russian angle had any bearing.

As it stands just now, Scotland was the highest ranked country at the end of last season's rankings (11th) to not get a CL group stage place. If Russia are kicked out and they just shove everyone else up the table, we're into 10th and get a group stage place. I'm not sure exactly when a decision will be made/announced (it may even already have been). If either this season's Champions League winners or Europa League winners qualify for next season's Champions League group stage through their domestic league, the spot reserved for them as European winners will go to the highest ranked country that doesn't already have a group stage spot. That'll be us as it stands, but if Russia are out, it'll be the country below us, which is Ukraine! I think they might well be out too, sadly, in which case it would then be Turkey. If both the Champions League AND Europa League winners qualify for next season's Champions League group stage through their domestic leagues, a group stage spot could go as far down as Denmark! 

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28 minutes ago, FarmerTweedy said:

Yes, we'd get two group stage places.

£££££££££s + £££££££££s

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FarmerTweedy
1 hour ago, Mr Elwood P said:


Why have the Scottish media been talking about the automatic Champions League spot since August 2021 then? 

Have they? You'd have to ask them!  I'd guess they probably recognise that it's unlikely that both the Champions League and Europa League will be won by teams that fail to qualify for next season's Champions League group stage through their domestic leagues, but I don't work in the Scottish media so a guess is all it is!

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Tom Hardy’s Dug
43 minutes ago, Mr Elwood P said:


Not technically true because 3rd place in the Europa League drops down to the Europa Conference so we could end up with UEFA football post Xmas ..

We would have a better chance of qualifying post Xmas through the conference league don’t you think?

 

I say this in the context of thinking we have **** all chance either route!

Edited by Tom Hardy’s Dug
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Mr Elwood P
4 minutes ago, FarmerTweedy said:

Have they? You'd have to ask them!  I'd guess they probably recognise that it's unlikely that both the Champions League and Europa League will be won by teams that fail to qualify for next season's Champions League group stage through their domestic leagues, but I don't work in the Scottish media so a guess is all it is!


So nothing to do with Russia then?

 

4 minutes ago, Tom Hardy’s Dug said:

We would have a better chance of qualifying post Xmas through the conference league don’t you think?

 

I say this in the context of thinking we have **** all chance either route!


Probably as much chance of being 3rd in Europa League I think.  

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FarmerTweedy
1 hour ago, Tom Hardy’s Dug said:


I wouldn’t get too hung up on Europa league as the financial difference compared with the Conference is minimal and we’d have much better odds of winning games in the conference.

 

So we’d do better financially by not qualifying for Europa League - not that we should not do our best to qualify….

 

The prestige would be nice and the away trips would be better. We’d just be a lot less likely to win or draw any games 😂

The difference isn't minimal, although it depends on how many Scottish clubs are in each competition's group stage as there's a pot that's split between each country's participating clubs.  Potentially, the Europa League group could be worth £3-4m more than the Conference League group, before extra prize money for wins and draws are factored in. It's true we'd have a better chance of getting some results in the Conference League but we'd probably still make more from the Europa League. 

 

You're right that we shouldn't get hung up on it though, being in the Conference League would still be great, still very lucrative, and be a great introduction to what will hopefully be regular involvement in group stage European football for years to come!

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FarmerTweedy
13 minutes ago, Tom Hardy’s Dug said:

We would have a better chance of qualifying post Xmas through the conference league don’t you think?

 

I say this in the context of thinking we have **** all chance either route!

Both likely to be very tough, but need to finish 1st or 2nd in Conference League group to go through to knockout stages. 3rd or 4th and you're out of Europe!  In the Europa League, finishing 1st or 2nd takes you into Europa League knockout stages, but 3rd gets you into the Conference League knockout stages, with only 4th being out of Europe.  I suspect it'll probably depend on the draw. I reckon most seasons, there'll probably be two or three Europa League groups where 3rd place would be easier to get than 2nd place would in two or three of the Conference League groups! 

 

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FarmerTweedy
15 minutes ago, Mr Elwood P said:


So nothing to do with Russia then?

 

 

I dunno, I still don't work in the Scottish media!  I can't really remember how much talk there was of Russia invading Ukraine back in August, but I don't think there was a lot, so it would seem unlikely, but maybe the Scottish media were quite well informed on what was happening in the Kremlin back then!

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Tom Hardy’s Dug
14 minutes ago, FarmerTweedy said:

Both likely to be very tough, but need to finish 1st or 2nd in Conference League group to go through to knockout stages. 3rd or 4th and you're out of Europe!  In the Europa League, finishing 1st or 2nd takes you into Europa League knockout stages, but 3rd gets you into the Conference League knockout stages, with only 4th being out of Europe.  I suspect it'll probably depend on the draw. I reckon most seasons, there'll probably be two or three Europa League groups where 3rd place would be easier to get than 2nd place would in two or three of the Conference League groups! 

 

We’d be bottom pot in Europa and 3rd pot in Conference with weaker teams in conference.

 

Something like £470k a win in Europa and £420k in Conference. £20k difference with draws. No earth shattering difference in price money. 
 

We even get a £250k “parachute payment” if we don’t get through the Europa league play offs (woe is us!) 🤣🤣

Edited by Tom Hardy’s Dug
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Mr Elwood P
3 hours ago, FarmerTweedy said:

Firstly, Scotland doesn't actually have a Champions League group stage place at the moment, our champions are due to start in the Champions League playoff round although if, as seems highly likely, Russian clubs are excluded next season, and the mechanism for filling the gaps is simply pushing other countries up the coefficient table, we will get one.

 

Secondly, no country, not Scotland nor anyone else, will have a GS place taken away from them because of who wins this season's European competitions. There are spaces already reserved in the CL group stage for this season's winners and Europa League winner.

 

14 minutes ago, FarmerTweedy said:

I dunno, I still don't work in the Scottish media!  I can't really remember how much talk there was of Russia invading Ukraine back in August, but I don't think there was a lot, so it would seem unlikely, but maybe the Scottish media were quite well informed on what was happening in the Kremlin back then!


??

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Jambo-Fox
3 hours ago, FarmerTweedy said:

As it stands just now, Scotland was the highest ranked country at the end of last season's rankings (11th) to not get a CL group stage place. If Russia are kicked out and they just shove everyone else up the table, we're into 10th and get a group stage place. I'm not sure exactly when a decision will be made/announced (it may even already have been). If either this season's Champions League winners or Europa League winners qualify for next season's Champions League group stage through their domestic league, the spot reserved for them as European winners will go to the highest ranked country that doesn't already have a group stage spot. That'll be us as it stands, but if Russia are out, it'll be the country below us, which is Ukraine! I think they might well be out too, sadly, in which case it would then be Turkey. If both the Champions League AND Europa League winners qualify for next season's Champions League group stage through their domestic leagues, a group stage spot could go as far down as Denmark! 

I’m sure the only way the SPFL Prem Champions do NOT qualify for the CL group stages is if Villarreal win the Champions League - reason:- a CL Group place is reserved for the CL winners IF they have not already qualified through their league place.
 

There is a CL Group place already reserved for the Russian Champions so that does not affect the Scottish Champions who will qualify regardless (subject to Villarreal situation)

Edited by Jambo-Fox
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Jambo-Fox

CL 32 group stage qualifiers are

  • Champions League title holders*
  • Europa League title holders
  • 10 champions from associations 1–10~
  • 6 runners-up from associations 1–6
  • 4 third-placed teams from associations 1–4
  • 4 fourth-placed teams from associations 1–4

~ this includes the Russian Champions
*Should the Champions League title holders, which are guaranteed a berth in the Champions League group stage, qualify via their domestic league, the following changes to the access list would be made:

  • The champions of association 11 (Scotland) would enter the group stage instead of the play-off round.
Edited by Jambo-Fox
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7 hours ago, Jambo-Fox said:

CL 32 group stage qualifiers are

  • Champions League title holders*
  • Europa League title holders
  • 10 champions from associations 1–10~
  • 6 runners-up from associations 1–6
  • 4 third-placed teams from associations 1–4
  • 4 fourth-placed teams from associations 1–4

~ this includes the Russian Champions
*Should the Champions League title holders, which are guaranteed a berth in the Champions League group stage, qualify via their domestic league, the following changes to the access list would be made:

  • The champions of association 11 (Scotland) would enter the group stage instead of the play-off round.

Thanks.
That's exactly what I was looking at.
Hence, the confusion about the Russian situation, which is irrelevant as to the above.

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heartsfc_fan

Sorry if already mentioned. Who could our possible opponent be in the EL playoff tie?

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4 minutes ago, heartsfc_fan said:

Sorry if already mentioned. Who could our possible opponent be in the EL playoff tie?

Too many perms at the minute, mate.

We have to wait to see who drops from the CL 3rd qualifiers and cup winners.

 

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Thought Police

Was listening to Laurie, Mark and Gowser yesterday, and it does seem like more money can be made in ECL than the EL. Obviously, more likely to get a couple of bigger names in the EL, but I'm not going to be devastated if we drop down.

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FarmerTweedy
9 hours ago, Jambo-Fox said:

CL 32 group stage qualifiers are

  • Champions League title holders*
  • Europa League title holders
  • 10 champions from associations 1–10~
  • 6 runners-up from associations 1–6
  • 4 third-placed teams from associations 1–4
  • 4 fourth-placed teams from associations 1–4

~ this includes the Russian Champions
*Should the Champions League title holders, which are guaranteed a berth in the Champions League group stage, qualify via their domestic league, the following changes to the access list would be made:

  • The champions of association 11 (Scotland) would enter the group stage instead of the play-off round.

None of that contradicts what I've said, it just confirms it! 

 

Although it does miss out the fact that if the Europa League winners also qualify for the Champions League group stage though their domestic league, that would also give Scotland a group stage place. 

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FarmerTweedy
9 hours ago, Jambo-Fox said:

I’m sure the only way the SPFL Prem Champions do NOT qualify for the CL group stages is if Villarreal win the Champions League - reason:- a CL Group place is reserved for the CL winners IF they have not already qualified through their league place.
 

 

As I've already said, Scotland doesn't have a group stage place at the moment, but there are three ways in which we can get one.  You're talking as if what I posted was wrong, but then just repeating one of the ways I described that we can get one!

 

9 hours ago, Jambo-Fox said:

There is a CL Group place already reserved for the Russian Champions so that does not affect the Scottish Champions who will qualify regardless (subject to Villarreal situation)

Yes, there's a group stage place reserved for the Russian Champions, but if they're kicked out, it'll almost certainly be given to the top-ranked country that doesn't already have one, I.e. Scotland!  

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Heartsmad1874
2 hours ago, heartsfc_fan said:

Sorry if already mentioned. Who could our possible opponent be in the EL playoff tie?


I put up two posts on Sunday about potential opponents but as the poster who replied to you said theres too many things to happen as teams have to lose/win games to progress to Europa play off round, not just a case of saying Rapid Vienna have qualified their seeded we're unseeded so we could play them. 

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24 minutes ago, FarmerTweedy said:

 

As I've already said, Scotland doesn't have a group stage place at the moment, but there are three ways in which we can get one.  You're talking as if what I posted was wrong, but then just repeating one of the ways I described that we can get one!

 

Yes, there's a group stage place reserved for the Russian Champions, but if they're kicked out, it'll almost certainly be given to the top-ranked country that doesn't already have one, I.e. Scotland!  

Not what I alluded to earlier. 
I said the Russian situation was irrelevant if Villarreal didn’t win the CL. 
Simply, we will get a group place even if the Russians are allowed in and Villarreal don’t win the CL.
That’s all I was saying.

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Jambo-Fox
2 hours ago, FarmerTweedy said:

 

As I've already said, Scotland doesn't have a group stage place at the moment, but there are three ways in which we can get one.  You're talking as if what I posted was wrong, but then just repeating one of the ways I described that we can get one!

 

Yes, there's a group stage place reserved for the Russian Champions, but if they're kicked out, it'll almost certainly be given to the top-ranked country that doesn't already have one, I.e. Scotland!  

Yes 🤩 

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3 hours ago, Thought Police said:

Was listening to Laurie, Mark and Gowser yesterday, and it does seem like more money can be made in ECL than the EL. Obviously, more likely to get a couple of bigger names in the EL, but I'm not going to be devastated if we drop down.

I'm not sure.  The starting pool for EL is c£550k more than ECL.  Also, the market pool is around 6 times as much.  We'd be £1-2m better off in the EL before a ball is kicked, depending on our share of the Market Pool

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Thought Police
2 minutes ago, RobNox said:

I'm not sure.  The starting pool for EL is c£550k more than ECL.  Also, the market pool is around 6 times as much.  We'd be £1-2m better off in the EL before a ball is kicked, depending on our share of the Market Pool

My understand was that you get £3.2m before a ball is kicked in EL, and £2.7m for ECL. But we'd get £250k for dropping down to ECL - so only a difference of £250k.

 

We could then end up in a EL where we struggle to get a point, whereas we may pick up cash if we can get results in ECL.

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Berra than you
7 minutes ago, Thought Police said:

My understand was that you get £3.2m before a ball is kicked in EL, and £2.7m for ECL. But we'd get £250k for dropping down to ECL - so only a difference of £250k.

 

We could then end up in a EL where we struggle to get a point, whereas we may pick up cash if we can get results in ECL.

I think the poster references the market pool which (I think?) is to do with TV money, which isn't factored into the prize money for being there.

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FarmerTweedy
3 hours ago, Boab said:

Not what I alluded to earlier. 
I said the Russian situation was irrelevant if Villarreal didn’t win the CL. 
Simply, we will get a group place even if the Russians are allowed in and Villarreal don’t win the CL.
That’s all I was saying.

Right, I see what you mean now. It wasn't clear, as you talked about how Scotland would get a place if Villarreal don't win the CL then said the Russian situation had no bearing. I (reasonably) took that to mean you were saying the Russian situation had no bearing on whether Scotland would get a place or not, where I now get that what you were trying to say was that if indeed Scotland gets a place thanks to Villarreal not winning the Champions League, the Russian situation won't matter (which is correct)!  It seems a slightly odd point to have wanted to make though, because you could make the point the other way round, I.e. if Russia are kicked out and everyone else gets shifted up the rankings, we get a group place even if Villarreal do win the Champions League! 

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7 minutes ago, Berra than you said:

I think the poster references the market pool which (I think?) is to do with TV money, which isn't factored into the prize money for being there.

Yes, the market pool is where we could earn a lot more in the EL than CL.  Each country with participating teams gets a share of the market pool, depending on the value of their media rights.  I did a bit of digging and it looks like Scotland's share for the EL would be close to £2m.  If we were the only Scottish club to play in the group stages we'd keep the lot.  At worst we'd share it with one other club (say Rangers get knocked out of CL qualifying rounds and drop into EL group stage).  The ECL market pool is around 1/6th of the EL, so even if we kept the lot to ourselves, we'd only be looking at around £300k.

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Thought Police
15 minutes ago, RobNox said:

Yes, the market pool is where we could earn a lot more in the EL than CL.  Each country with participating teams gets a share of the market pool, depending on the value of their media rights.  I did a bit of digging and it looks like Scotland's share for the EL would be close to £2m.  If we were the only Scottish club to play in the group stages we'd keep the lot.  At worst we'd share it with one other club (say Rangers get knocked out of CL qualifying rounds and drop into EL group stage).  The ECL market pool is around 1/6th of the EL, so even if we kept the lot to ourselves, we'd only be looking at around £300k.

Ah okay, thanks. I hadn't heard of this.

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FarmerTweedy
26 minutes ago, Berra than you said:

I think the poster references the market pool which (I think?) is to do with TV money, which isn't factored into the prize money for being there.

Yeah, the market pool is what really differentiates the two competitions financially, I think. I actually struggled to find info on the market pool for the Europa Conference League, but from what I could find, it seems to be a fraction of what's on offer in the Europa League.

 

Tom Hardy’s Dug made a very good (if not necessarily 100% accurate!) point though, at the end of the day the Europa Conference League, if that's where we end up, will still be highly lucrative and so we shouldn't really get too worried about which one we do end up in.  Let's just relax, look forward to it, and enjoy wherever the ride takes us!

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7 minutes ago, FarmerTweedy said:

Yeah, the market pool is what really differentiates the two competitions financially, I think. I actually struggled to find info on the market pool for the Europa Conference League, but from what I could find, it seems to be a fraction of what's on offer in the Europa League.

 

Tom Hardy’s Dug made a very good (if not necessarily 100% accurate!) point though, at the end of the day the Europa Conference League, if that's where we end up, will still be highly lucrative and so we shouldn't really get too worried about which one we do end up in.  Let's just relax, look forward to it, and enjoy wherever the ride takes us!

True, including the money from 4 home games, we should make a minimum of £4m before kicking a ball.  Getting to the EL group stage would be an added bonus financially.

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  • davemclaren changed the title to Europa league/conference 22/23 - Linfield/Zurich v Hearts

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