energy prices

[Malinga the Swinga]

4 minutes ago, Cade said:

BP: £5billion profit in first three months of this year (doubling last year's performance)

 

Shell: £7.3billion profit in first three months of this year (triple last year's performance)

 

 

It's profiteering, pure and simple profiteering. How you stop it though is different story.

Bad enough companies make extreme profit but the hedge fund guys are manipulating prices in order they can make money and they're not even involved in oil production. Gambling to make billions while ordinary punters struggle to make ends meet.

That's where I would concentrate on if I ever got in charge of markets.

Don't mind buying and selling shares, but this shorting and futures trading encourages cartels, illegal trading and downright criminality.

[Malinga the Swinga]

1 hour ago, GBJambo said:

Petrol rising to £2 a litre and yet oil is only $120 a barrel and yet back in 2008 it was over $230. 
 

Hmm something doesn’t quite add up here 

It's because greed has never been more prevalent. Line between criminal behaviour, insider trading and hedging is becoming so blurred it's impossible to differentiate.

As is the norm, ordinary people pay the price while the 'elite' increase their wealth on an unparalleled manner.

[Dazo]

2 hours ago, GBJambo said:

Petrol rising to £2 a litre and yet oil is only $120 a barrel and yet back in 2008 it was over $230. 
 

Hmm something doesn’t quite add up here 

 

Doesn’t add up ? If there was ever a time for businesses and retailers to profiteer it is right now. Ram prices up and sit back allowing the government to take the blame. 

[Captain Sausage]

18 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

It's profiteering, pure and simple profiteering. How you stop it though is different story.

Bad enough companies make extreme profit but the hedge fund guys are manipulating prices in order they can make money and they're not even involved in oil production. Gambling to make billions while ordinary punters struggle to make ends meet.

That's where I would concentrate on if I ever got in charge of markets.

Don't mind buying and selling shares, but this shorting and futures trading encourages cartels, illegal trading and downright criminality.

How is it profiteering? Oil and gas are commodities which have prices set by the global market. Asia opening up post COVID caused prices to rise dramatically and Putin holding Europe over a barrel has pushed it astromically up. 
 

BP, Shell etc don’t set prices. BP made a loss of $6b in 2020, but I guess that doesn’t suit the narrative. I was speaking to a pal who is an oil and gas analyst in London and he said he didn’t see how the windfall tax would raise the money HMT stated it would. The 91p rebate on domestic investment means that these companies will just utilise that lever to almost negate their windfall tax liability. 
 

Also people digging out the supply companies, they are running at a loss on the price cap. They are still subsidising every domestic user. 
 

edit - fully agree about shameless profiteering at the pump. That is disgusting behaviour and the government should be introducing laws to protect consumers (ie maximum rates of price increases or tying price to Brent value)

Edited June 9, 2022 by Captain Sausage

[The Real Maroonblood]

9 minutes ago, Dazo said:

 

Doesn’t add up ? If there was ever a time for businesses and retailers to profiteer it is right now. Ram prices up and sit back allowing the government to take the blame. 

Well the government should step forward and do something about it.

Ha! Bloody Ha!

[Dazo]

Just now, The Real Maroonblood said:

Well the government should step forward and do something about it.

Ha! Bloody Ha!

In a free market that’s easier said than done. 

[Malinga the Swinga]

2 minutes ago, Captain Sausage said:

How is it profiteering? Oil and gas are commodities which have prices set by the global market. Asia opening up post COVID caused prices to rise dramatically and Putin holding Europe over a barrel has pushed it astromically up. 
 

BP, Shell etc don’t set prices. BP made a loss of $6b in 2020, but I guess that doesn’t suit the narrative. I was speaking to a pal who is an oil and gas analyst in London and he said he didn’t see how the windfall tax would raise the money HMT stated it would. The 91p rebate on domestic investment means that these companies will just utilise that lever to almost negate their windfall tax liability. 
 

Also people digging out the supply companies, they are running at a loss on the price cap. They are still subsidising every domestic user. 

Funny how these companies forced to put up prices immediately yet when price falls, the price at pumps doesn't reduce immediately. Funny how when duty cut few months back, these companies didn't pass it all on to consumer and just increased their margin.

[The Real Maroonblood]

Just now, Dazo said:

In a free market that’s easier said than done. 

They can pass legislation when it suits. 

Zero chance of that happening. 

[Malinga the Swinga]

2 minutes ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

Well the government should step forward and do something about it.

Ha! Bloody Ha!

They could cut duty, but the oil companies wouldn't pass it on anyway, or certainly not in full.

Shell and rest need to fill coffers. Also helps them to keep the analysts happy, another bunch who sit there and do **** all apart from assist in manipulating share price.

Need your shares bumped up, well pay one of the rating companies to write article saying how well your doing and watch market bounce.

[The Real Maroonblood]

2 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

Funny how these companies forced to put up prices immediately yet when price falls, the price at pumps doesn't reduce immediately. Funny how when duty cut few months back, these companies didn't pass it all on to consumer and just increased their margin.

It's like te Budget. 

When they're giving you something it's x amount of months later but taking money from you it's from midnight.

 

[The Real Maroonblood]

1 minute ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

They could cut duty, but the oil companies wouldn't pass it on anyway, or certainly not in full.

Shell and rest need to fill coffers. Also helps them to keep the analysts happy, another bunch who sit there and do **** all apart from assist in manipulating share price.

Need your shares bumped up, well pay one of the rating companies to write article saying how well your doing and watch market bounce.

It's bloody depressing times.

[Malinga the Swinga]

6 minutes ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

Well the government should step forward and do something about it.

Ha! Bloody Ha!

Nothing to stop our government in Scotland reducing our tax rate and putting more money into tax payers pocket.

 

[The Mighty Thor]

7 minutes ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

Well the government should step forward and do something about it.

Ha! Bloody Ha!

They can't. They're baws deep in it. 

[Dazo]

5 minutes ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

They can pass legislation when it suits. 

Zero chance of that happening. 

Hopefully wee Nic is listening to you then and she will. 

[Captain Sausage]

7 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

Funny how these companies forced to put up prices immediately yet when price falls, the price at pumps doesn't reduce immediately. Funny how when duty cut few months back, these companies didn't pass it all on to consumer and just increased their margin.

Agree at retail sites. But bp and shell make very little money on selling petrol. They make far more at the shop attached to the petrol pumps. 
 

And drawling both is the wholesale oil and gas market (upstream market) where they make more than 70% of their money. 

[Malinga the Swinga]

Just now, The Real Maroonblood said:

It's bloody depressing times.

It is but having survived 70's and 80's, pretty confident we will survive this period.

We are a resilient bunch and while ***** like Johnson, Sturgeon, Blair, Scargill and others have come promising loads, disappointed, betrayed and gone again, Joe public still carries on living.

Better times will be seen again, just have to get through next few months.

[Malinga the Swinga]

2 minutes ago, Captain Sausage said:

Agree at retail sites. But bp and shell make very little money on selling petrol. They make far more at the shop attached to the petrol pumps. 
 

And drawling both is the wholesale oil and gas market (upstream market) where they make more than 70% of their money. 

If you buy anything at their shops, you need sectioning.

As for wholesale market, it depends on who they answer to. They could demand reduction on price, and as big players they are well in cahoots with oil producers but they won't. Being honest, they couldn't care less if public paying through nose for oil or if public cutting back on food, clothing or whatever, all they care about is making as much as they can as quickly as they can for as long as they can.

Corporate greed v corporate social responsibility. Only ever 1 winner in that debate.

[The Real Maroonblood]

7 minutes ago, Dazo said:

Hopefully wee Nic is listening to you then and she will. 

So the SG can step in with legislation that will affect BP.

That's a new one. 

 

[Malinga the Swinga]

1 minute ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

So the SG can step in with legislation that will affect BP.

That's a new one. 

 

They could reduce income tax we pay to put more money in pockets of tax payer though.

[The Real Maroonblood]

Just now, Malinga the Swinga said:

They could reduce income tax we pay to put more money in pockets of tax payer though.

Bring it on.

[Captain Sausage]

2 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

If you buy anything at their shops, you need sectioning.

As for wholesale market, it depends on who they answer to. They could demand reduction on price, and as big players they are well in cahoots with oil producers but they won't. Being honest, they couldn't care less if public paying through nose for oil or if public cutting back on food, clothing or whatever, all they care about is making as much as they can as quickly as they can for as long as they can.

Corporate greed v corporate social responsibility. Only ever 1 winner in that debate.

Sorry, just want to be clear that your answer to the current crisis is to get private oil companies to work together to undercut the market on pricing?

 

Aside from being massively illegal, private company supplies account for <10% of global supplies. So OPEC and other producer nations wouldn’t bat an eyelid. All that would happen is government tax take reduces in the U.K. while the global market still drives price at market rate. 

[Malinga the Swinga]

8 minutes ago, Captain Sausage said:

Sorry, just want to be clear that your answer to the current crisis is to get private oil companies to work together to undercut the market on pricing?

 

Aside from being massively illegal, private company supplies account for <10% of global supplies. So OPEC and other producer nations wouldn’t bat an eyelid. All that would happen is government tax take reduces in the U.K. while the global market still drives price at market rate. 

Of course being involved in illegal price fixing is something that these companies would never be involved in, well other than the times they have done.

I do admit your knowledge is interesting though. What would you suggest is done, or is it bend over and allow BP and Shell to continue to accrue profits that would make a thief blush?

[Dazo]

16 minutes ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

So the SG can step in with legislation that will affect BP.

That's a new one. 

 

Are BP profiteering or are they just making a lot of money ? Significant difference. You’re the one that wants legislation so why doesn’t she target retailers who are currently profiteering ? 

Edited June 9, 2022 by Dazo

[The Real Maroonblood]

1 minute ago, Dazo said:

Are BP profiteering or are they just making a lot of money ? Significant difference. You’re the one that wants legislation so why doesn’t she target retailers who are currently profiteering ? 

My initial post on this was a response to BP and Shell.

Do you agree?

Yes or No?

 

[Captain Sausage]

Just now, Malinga the Swinga said:

Of course being involved in illegal price fixing is something that these companies would never be involved in, well other than the times they have done.

I do admit your knowledge is interesting though. What would you suggest is done, or is it bend over and allow BP and Shell to continue to accrue profits that would make a thief blush?

I’d probably not do too much differently. Would be using threat of extra tax to try and drive investment in low carbon technology. You can’t just tax profits, or you risk corporations deciding the U.K. investment landscape is too risky and withdrawing their capital. 
 

As BEIS are doing now, I’d focus on building a renewable/low carbon pipeline focussed on providing sufficient energy for projections out to 2050. 
 

That investment needs to include base load offshore AND onshore wind, dispatchable gas and biofuel with capture, battery storage and hydrogen in sufficient quantities that we can remove our dependence on volatile pricing of imported fossil fuels. 
 

It also means spending a lot of money. But when the alternative is our current situation, I don’t see much choice. 
 

It doesn’t answer the ‘what about today’ question. Feels very much like the choices are either to subsidise energy costs or to let people ride it out. It’s a shitshow. 

[Dazo]

15 minutes ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

My initial post on this was a response to BP and Shell.

Do you agree?

Yes or No?

 

Im not a fan of controlling what profits businesses make to be honest but in these times energy companies do need to share the burden. 

[ri Alban]

59 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

Nothing to stop our government in Scotland reducing our tax rate and putting more money into tax payers pocket.

 

The majority of scots pay less tax as it is, Mal. But maybe, they should cut it even more.

[ri Alban]

49 minutes ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

So the SG can step in with legislation that will affect BP.

That's a new one. 

 

Only folk above something like 45000 pay more tax than the rest of the UK. The rest on average pay less. But I'd love them to smack BP and She'll with a tax bill, just to see if they'd pay it.

[Captain Sausage]

Just now, ri Alban said:

Only folk above something like 45000 pay more tax than the rest of the UK. The rest on average pay less. But I'd love them to smack BP and She'll with a tax bill, just to see if they'd pay it.

Its 27k no?

 

The windfall tax is nothing but a political gesture. They’ve announced investment incentives that’ll negate a majority of the windfall tax. 
 

But good to see it’s been picked up and considered a good policy by most. 

[ri Alban]

5 minutes ago, Captain Sausage said:

Its 27k no?

 

The windfall tax is nothing but a political gesture. They’ve announced investment incentives that’ll negate a majority of the windfall tax. 
 

But good to see it’s been picked up and considered a good policy by most. 

I'll salute anything that comes our way. Personally, I'd like to see the NI rise binned, Green tax binned and vat cut to 10% for the rest of the year. This bonanza for the government is paying off COVID and they won't do a thing about it.

[joondalupjambo]

1 hour ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

Funny how these companies forced to put up prices immediately yet when price falls, the price at pumps doesn't reduce immediately. Funny how when duty cut few months back, these companies didn't pass it all on to consumer and just increased their margin.

Think the retailers maybe keeping prices high at the pumps so they can recoup their losses during Covid.  Retailers overheads like any other business are increased as well.  The purchasers and sellers of the oil and what the Government cream off each litre is another matter of course, both could do more to ease the problem.

[OBE]

6 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

I'll salute anything that comes our way. Personally, I'd like to see the NI rise binned, Green tax binned and vat cut to 10% for the rest of the year. This bonanza for the government is paying off COVID and they won't do a thing about it.

 

[ri Alban]

14 minutes ago, Captain Sausage said:

Its 27k no?

 

The windfall tax is nothing but a political gesture. They’ve announced investment incentives that’ll negate a majority of the windfall tax. 
 

But good to see it’s been picked up and considered a good policy by most. 

https://www.mygov.scot/income-tax-rates-and-personal-allowances

[Lord Montpelier]

1 hour ago, Dazo said:

Hopefully wee Nic is listening to you then and she will. 

Too busy spending her 20m on fantasy referendum plans and / or going down to London to cheer on the Queen with Magpie Peter

[Morgan]

Quick question, if I may?

 

Have gas and electricity prices, including standing charges, gone up recently in Scotland?

 

The reason I ask is that we have just received a huge bill for a property that has been empty since the end of October last year.

 

Thanks

[ri Alban]

Just now, Morgan said:

Quick question, if I may?

 

Have gas and electricity prices, including standing charges, gone up recently in Scotland?

 

The reason I ask is that we have just received a huge bill for a property that has been empty since the end of October last year.

 

Thanks

Massively, bud.

[GBJambo]

Government and petrol companies are coining it. 

 

Our petrol prices are highest in Europe

 

Time for people to start taping up their reg plates 

[GBJambo]

33 minutes ago, joondalupjambo said:

Think the retailers maybe keeping prices high at the pumps so they can recoup their losses during Covid.  Retailers overheads like any other business are increased as well.  The purchasers and sellers of the oil and what the Government cream off each litre is another matter of course, both could do more to ease the problem.

What you mean like Tesco and Asda who profited from Covid and made record profits 

[Morgan]

7 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

Massively, bud.

Thanks very much.

 

Basically, we are paying more for an empty house in Edinburgh than we do for our place here.

 

Feckin weird, if you ask me!

[joondalupjambo]

Just now, GBJambo said:

What you mean like Tesco and Asda who profited from Covid and made record profits 

Where did they make their most profits though during Covid?  Selling petrol is only one strand of their business, that may have seen profits for that fall, would have thought so because nobody was out and about as much but I bet they did ok with their alcohol sales and snacks during Covid😀

Unless we could see a detailed breakdown of their profits it would be hard to tell.

 

Look I have little sympathy for any profiteering in any sector but one thing is clear not all retailers are making vast profits out of petrol sales.  Small independent ones will always struggle up against the big boys because the latter can offset their losses in one area against profits in another.

[joondalupjambo]

5 minutes ago, Morgan said:

Thanks very much.

 

Basically, we are paying more for an empty house in Edinburgh than we do for our place here.

 

Feckin weird, if you ask me!

Schhhh Morgan the Scottish Government do not like empty houses 😀😀😀

[Morgan]

2 minutes ago, joondalupjambo said:

Schhhh Morgan the Scottish Government do not like empty houses 😀😀😀

 

It’s fine now - it was sold at the end of May and we’re tying up the loose ends.

 

 

[ri Alban]

11 minutes ago, Morgan said:

Thanks very much.

 

Basically, we are paying more for an empty house in Edinburgh than we do for our place here.

 

Feckin weird, if you ask me!

Will you not get a rebate?

[Lord Montpelier]

In days gone by there would have been organised mass protest about the state the country is in.

 

Now, nothing. The Internet allows people to sound off (including me) from the comfort of their own home

 

Which benefits politicians who can easily ignore it and continue mucking stuff up.

[joondalupjambo]

1 minute ago, Morgan said:

 

It’s fine now - it was sold at the end of May and we’re tying up the loose ends.

 

 

Phew😀

I have one as well and paying full Council Tax plus hefty insurance is hurting.  We need to make a decision about it soon, rent out or sell.  Cannot be ars*d renting it so may just flog it.

[Morgan]

Just now, ri Alban said:

Will you not get a rebate?

Yes, we got about £180 back today, but it’s still wrong.

 

They are basing their charges on estimated readings, and also can’t explain why our gas and electricity readings are going up week by week, when nobody has even been in the place.

 

My wife is good at these things and has told them what the actual bill should be, and that she will not be paying them a penny more.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Morgan]

1 minute ago, joondalupjambo said:

Phew😀

I have one as well and paying full Council Tax plus hefty insurance is hurting.  We need to make a decision about it soon, rent out or sell.  Cannot be ars*d renting it so may just flog it.

My advice would be ‘don’t rent’.

 

We have just sorted out (after a years to-ing and fro-ing with the property managers and Safe Deposit Scotland) a horrendous mess left to us by the tenants from Hell.

 

 

[trotter]

2 hours ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

It's profiteering, pure and simple profiteering. How you stop it though is different story.

Bad enough companies make extreme profit but the hedge fund guys are manipulating prices in order they can make money and they're not even involved in oil production. Gambling to make billions while ordinary punters struggle to make ends meet.

That's where I would concentrate on if I ever got in charge of markets.

Don't mind buying and selling shares, but this shorting and futures trading encourages cartels, illegal trading and downright criminality.

Another 'it's the oil companies that are the bad guys' post from somebody who doesn't know the make-up of the price of fuel. For an exact breakdown, look no further than here:

https://www.racfoundation.org/data/uk-daily-fuel-table-with-breakdown

We have one of the cheapest fuel prices in Europe BEFORE tax. Not only do we pay fuel duty, but the VAT is also factored AFTER the fuel duty, so essentially we get taxed on a tax. The money going to the government from both is roughly the same as what the wholesale cost of the fuel is in the first place (what goes to the oil companies), but considering they have had to hire an exploration platform to find the oil, build a production platform to extract it, build a refinery to refine it, build the petrol station to sell it, as well as all the transportation and staffing costs associated with same, they are slightly more justified in taking a profit than the government who use it simply as a cash cow for doing nothing. 

[ri Alban]

9 minutes ago, Morgan said:

Yes, we got about £180 back today, but it’s still wrong.

 

They are basing their charges on estimated readings, and also can’t explain why our gas and electricity readings are going up week by week, when nobody has even been in the place.

 

My wife is good at these things and has told them what the actual bill should be, and that she will not be paying them a penny more.

 

 

 

 

 

 

👍Good luck, bud.

[joondalupjambo]

17 minutes ago, Morgan said:

My advice would be ‘don’t rent’.

 

We have just sorted out (after a years to-ing and fro-ing with the property managers and Safe Deposit Scotland) a horrendous mess left to us by the tenants from Hell.

 

 

Yeah tend to agree.

If you have multiple properties to rent out, and one goes bad then at least you can offset the losses etc against the portfolio.  You also accept it more, the hassle I mean because it is more likely a job. However with just one when you break it down the monthly profit after tax is pretty low versus the risk.  If properly prices go up and up though worthwhile but ours is in an area where prices are pretty flat. Selling it will take time but hey ho life is what it is.

Edited June 9, 2022 by joondalupjambo