Jump to content

Russia Invades Ukraine


Greenbank2

Recommended Posts

3 minutes ago, Ked said:

The French president has said we have to find a way of not humiliating Russia.

What's he on about and isn't it appeasement?

 

 

I've heard some shite from Macron about ceding territory to Russia to secure peace.  Exactly which bits of France does he want to cede?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 15.8k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

  • Mikey1874

    1171

  • Cade

    1085

  • JFK-1

    847

  • redjambo

    788

Top Posters In This Topic

Posted Images

27 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

I've heard some shite from Macron about ceding territory to Russia to secure peace.  Exactly which bits of France does he want to cede?

I just don't get where he is coming from.

It's almost the kind of stuff you see when a politician is under pressure from a mafia type thing on Netflix.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Geoff Kilpatrick
39 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

I've heard some shite from Macron about ceding territory to Russia to secure peace.  Exactly which bits of France does he want to cede?

I think Alsace-Lorraine could be offered up again. Seems fair. Kaliningrad is already an exclave.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

MoncurMacdonaldMercer
1 hour ago, Ulysses said:

 

If there's no equivalence being made then it's simply not relevant to the thread.  In which case fair enough - but shouldn't the point be made on some other thread?  ;) 

 

the post I quoted made no equivalence but was very relevant to the thread/debate - as I said requires a wee bit of clear thinking

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, MoncurMacdonaldMercer said:

 

the post I quoted made no equivalence but was very relevant to the thread/debate - as I said requires a wee bit of clear thinking

 

Someone else made the equivalence.  You told him it was a good post.

 

There's some clear thinking for you.

 

For the avoidance of any doubt, there is no culpability on the part of Ukraine for the aggression of Russia, and no-one in their right mind gives a drunken fiddler's **** as to how the internal behaviour and governance of Ukraine might have influenced the thinking of the dictator Putin.  Anyone who suggests otherwise - and anyone who tells them they've posted well for suggesting otherwise - needs to clear their thinking.  Or, to use the expression I mentioned earlier, to cop themselves on.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

29 minutes ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

I think Alsace-Lorraine could be offered up again. Seems fair. Kaliningrad is already an exclave.

 

Is Alsace-Lorraine the equivalent of 20% of Ukrainian territory, or are we doing this just for symbolic value?  :whistling: 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Geoff Kilpatrick
15 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

Is Alsace-Lorraine the equivalent of 20% of Ukrainian territory, or are we doing this just for symbolic value?  :whistling: 

Who cares? If it upsets the French it's a result!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

MoncurMacdonaldMercer
1 hour ago, Ulysses said:

 

Someone else made the equivalence.  You told him it was a good post.

 

There's some clear thinking for you.

 

For the avoidance of any doubt, there is no culpability on the part of Ukraine for the aggression of Russia, and no-one in their right mind gives a drunken fiddler's **** as to how the internal behaviour and governance of Ukraine might have influenced the thinking of the dictator Putin.  Anyone who suggests otherwise - and anyone who tells them they've posted well for suggesting otherwise - needs to clear their thinking.  Or, to use the expression I mentioned earlier, to cop themselves on.


You appear to have become further confused

 

The post I quoted made no such equivalence quite the opposite - you inferred that might be the case in your last post but appear now to be again saying there was an equivalence - there wasn’t - as we agreed maybe coconut Doug or someone previously in the thread might have made an equivalence (which I agree would be wrong) but not in the post I quoted nor my own post

 

maybe you’re  just trying to save a bit of face or something but actually doing the opposite 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jeffros Furios
4 hours ago, MoncurMacdonaldMercer said:


You appear to have become further confused

 

The post I quoted made no such equivalence quite the opposite - you inferred that might be the case in your last post but appear now to be again saying there was an equivalence - there wasn’t - as we agreed maybe coconut Doug or someone previously in the thread might have made an equivalence (which I agree would be wrong) but not in the post I quoted nor my own post

 

maybe you’re  just trying to save a bit of face or something but actually doing the opposite 

:cornette:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

MoncurMacdonaldMercer
2 hours ago, Jeffros Furios said:

:cornette:


feel free to point out the equivalence in the post I quoted or my own post, otherwise


 

:lion:

 

Edited by MoncurMacdonaldMercer
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 04/06/2022 at 23:49, Ulysses said:

**** it, I'm annoyed at myself for this.

 

Apologies, @ScotsAndy.  That post was mean-spirited of me, and I shouldn't have said it.

No worries  - quite understand that everyone has differing reactions to the Ukraine situation  - and  I am sure all of us have been dropped on our heads as a child (some from greater heights than others but I will leave judgement on that specific to others).

 

What I should make clear is that my sympathies and compassion lie primarily with the Ukraine just now.  In addition in terms of the Russian Federations responsibility for the dire predicament of the Ukrainian people at this exact point in time I also believe they are fully culpable.  All I have been trying to illustrate is that there are other more complex sides to this, especially if you are a Russian, or Russian orientated Ukrainian citizen.  Those complex reasonings are quite wide ranging, some inherently implausible, some patently strategic and others somewhat based in truth. So you have a litany of causal factors such as a perception rightly or wrongly of fascist tendencies in Ukraine, proven persecution of some Russian speaking areas in Ukraine and a belief that Ukraine is developing biological weapons with the US (most likely simple hypothesis/propaganda by the Russians). Then you get strategic considerations such as Russian need for an access to the Black sea, the Russian fear of never ending NATO expansion, a land corridor to support Russian Speaking Transnistria and what they see as the extremely vital requirement to prevent a water blockade of the Crimea. 

 

Now I look at all these sides and I think I can see those which I can understand as being pretty manufactured and weak - but I can see several which your average Russian is going to view as pretty important to them  - none of which justifies aggression - but does illustrate their mind set.  And unfortunately if we (or more properly the Ukrainians ) don't understand their viewpoint it will make it incredibly difficult to get a solution to this War. 

 

So unfortunately my view is that the end of this is not going to be a restoration of Ukrainian sovereignty in full, or even a resumption of the Border position as it was in February. Unfortunately the only real solution that is going to work is some Real Politik view on solving some of the above and at the same time safeguarding what is left as a sovereign Ukraine territory after Russian annexation - so that the Russian side never again can invade with impunity in terms of a full NATO response.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

24 minutes ago, ScotsAndy said:

No worries  - quite understand that everyone has differing reactions to the Ukraine situation  - and  I am sure all of us have been dropped on our heads as a child (some from greater heights than others but I will leave judgement on that specific to others).

 

What I should make clear is that my sympathies and compassion lie primarily with the Ukraine just now.  In addition in terms of the Russian Federations responsibility for the dire predicament of the Ukrainian people at this exact point in time I also believe they are fully culpable.  All I have been trying to illustrate is that there are other more complex sides to this, especially if you are a Russian, or Russian orientated Ukrainian citizen.  Those complex reasonings are quite wide ranging, some inherently implausible, some patently strategic and others somewhat based in truth. So you have a litany of causal factors such as a perception rightly or wrongly of fascist tendencies in Ukraine, proven persecution of some Russian speaking areas in Ukraine and a belief that Ukraine is developing biological weapons with the US (most likely simple hypothesis/propaganda by the Russians). Then you get strategic considerations such as Russian need for an access to the Black sea, the Russian fear of never ending NATO expansion, a land corridor to support Russian Speaking Transnistria and what they see as the extremely vital requirement to prevent a water blockade of the Crimea. 

 

Now I look at all these sides and I think I can see those which I can understand as being pretty manufactured and weak - but I can see several which your average Russian is going to view as pretty important to them  - none of which justifies aggression - but does illustrate their mind set.  And unfortunately if we (or more properly the Ukrainians ) don't understand their viewpoint it will make it incredibly difficult to get a solution to this War. 

 

So unfortunately my view is that the end of this is not going to be a restoration of Ukrainian sovereignty in full, or even a resumption of the Border position as it was in February. Unfortunately the only real solution that is going to work is some Real Politik view on solving some of the above and at the same time safeguarding what is left as a sovereign Ukraine territory after Russian annexation - so that the Russian side never again can invade with impunity in terms of a full NATO response.

 

If Russia was so concerned about Russian speaking areas why did it for example destroy Russian speaking Mariopol and kill thousands of Russian speaking civilians.

 

2014 was a Russian invasion not some plucky independence campaign.

 

Votes for right wing parties at 2% last election is hardly some facist stronghold. 

 

 

Edited by Mikey1874
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, ScotsAndy said:

No worries  - quite understand that everyone has differing reactions to the Ukraine situation  - and  I am sure all of us have been dropped on our heads as a child (some from greater heights than others but I will leave judgement on that specific to others).

 

What I should make clear is that my sympathies and compassion lie primarily with the Ukraine just now.  In addition in terms of the Russian Federations responsibility for the dire predicament of the Ukrainian people at this exact point in time I also believe they are fully culpable.  All I have been trying to illustrate is that there are other more complex sides to this, especially if you are a Russian, or Russian orientated Ukrainian citizen.  Those complex reasonings are quite wide ranging, some inherently implausible, some patently strategic and others somewhat based in truth. So you have a litany of causal factors such as a perception rightly or wrongly of fascist tendencies in Ukraine, proven persecution of some Russian speaking areas in Ukraine and a belief that Ukraine is developing biological weapons with the US (most likely simple hypothesis/propaganda by the Russians). Then you get strategic considerations such as Russian need for an access to the Black sea, the Russian fear of never ending NATO expansion, a land corridor to support Russian Speaking Transnistria and what they see as the extremely vital requirement to prevent a water blockade of the Crimea. 

 

Now I look at all these sides and I think I can see those which I can understand as being pretty manufactured and weak - but I can see several which your average Russian is going to view as pretty important to them  - none of which justifies aggression - but does illustrate their mind set.  And unfortunately if we (or more properly the Ukrainians ) don't understand their viewpoint it will make it incredibly difficult to get a solution to this War. 

 

So unfortunately my view is that the end of this is not going to be a restoration of Ukrainian sovereignty in full, or even a resumption of the Border position as it was in February. Unfortunately the only real solution that is going to work is some Real Politik view on solving some of the above and at the same time safeguarding what is left as a sovereign Ukraine territory after Russian annexation - so that the Russian side never again can invade with impunity in terms of a full NATO response.

 

Thanks for that.  Even if I don't agree with a lot of it, it makes a plausible case for why someone living in the Russian propaganda bubble could be persuaded that what's going on in Ukraine makes sense.  Of course, what it doesn't do - and you say it doesn't do - is actually make sense.  Put simply, regardless of the internal politics of Ukraine, there is no reason and no justification for anyone else to invade the country.  It's also why NATO is correct when it says it won't in any way "take the fight to Russia", even though there might be a political or even a moral imperative for doing so.  It's a pity the West didn't do the same thing itself a few times in the last 30 years rather than engaging in "regime change", but that's no justification for the Russian aggression either.

 

Unfortunately, a lot of the "both sides" merchants don't get that distinction and don't want to get that distinction, either because they are playing the role of useful idiot, or else supportive of the aims of the Russian regime - not necessarily in relation to Ukraine, but more broadly in relation to Russia's role as today's guardians of extremist right-wing ethno-nationalism.

 

It's also not helpful when people like Macron (is he a useful idiot or just lazy?) feed that narrative with Quisling talk of "land for peace".  That didn't work in Sudetenland, and it won't work in Donetsk and Luhansk.  And regrettably, I believe there is a key point at which the best interests of the West and the best interests of Ukraine may diverge considerably.  Ukraine's best interest is in a resolution that restores its borders to the maximum extent possible and gets peace and security.  However, that almost inevitably will not involve a complete restoration of its borders or complete withdrawal of the fascist Russian aggressors.  If that is the case, then it is in the West's best interests to contain the conflict in Ukraine and make it as bloody, drawn-out, savage and costly as it can possibly be - effectively a sinkhole of time, lives, equipment and money for the Russian government.  Of course that's probably not in the best interests of Ukraine.  It's also a  horrible and cynical strategy, but from NATO's perspective it represents the best way to tie up the military resources and capacity of the Russians for a generation, thereby decreasing the risk of similar aggression against other Eastern European countries.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, jonesy said:

 

Wouldn't be surprised if he's been got at, like they did with Trump. Whether it's cash, a honey trap, or political leverage, I don't think he's playing a straight bat anymore.

 

Hard to say.  Germany is paying the price (so to speak) of following blatantly mercantilist policies with regard to Russia since 1991, but France doesn't really have the same excuses.  Part of the problem is a form of laziness, IMO.  You can't have hassle-free conflict.  Ukraine is paying with destruction and loss of life, while Western Europe pays with inflation and supply line pressures.  But even if the cost and hassle for us is a lot less than for Ukraine, it's still tempting for politicians to try to avoid it.  Is that too cynical an analysis?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

il Duce McTarkin
2 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

Is that too cynical an analysis?

 

No.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, jonesy said:

 

Probably far more accurate than my sinister and dramatic take on it, TBF. Can understand Macron not wanting his second term to be defined by out of control cost of living crises in a country where they set fire to cars for having the wrong cheese at the table.

 

:laugh:

 

 

It is of course possible that Macron is trying to avoid a cheese fire, and that there's Kompromat as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Angela Merkel on Ukraine, Putin and her legacy

 

Former German Chancellor Angela Merkel defended her legacy on Ukraine in a wide-ranging interview on Tuesday. In her first major interview since leaving office, Merkel condemned Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, but said she refused to apologize for her policies towards Moscow.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Two British volunteer fighters captured by the Russians have been sentenced to DEATH by a court in the Donetsk People's Republic.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

il Duce McTarkin
4 minutes ago, Cade said:

Two British volunteer fighters captured by the Russians have been sentenced to DEATH by a court in the Donetsk People's Republic.

 

 

 

They knew the risks.

They'll be made an example of and publicly shot.

No danger our government will do anything about this.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

John Findlay
22 minutes ago, Cade said:

Two British volunteer fighters captured by the Russians have been sentenced to DEATH by a court in the Donetsk People's Republic.

 

 

More fool them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

More fool them.

 

More Russians and their patsys will die.

 

The Ukrainians love Britain just now. 

 

Shows them up. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

32 minutes ago, Cade said:

Two British volunteer fighters captured by the Russians have been sentenced to DEATH by a court in the Donetsk People's Republic.

 

 

Aren't they members of Ukraine's armed forces? And not really volunteers. 

 

As such they should be treated the same way as all other prisoners of war. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

John Findlay
1 minute ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

More Russians and their patsys will die.

 

The Ukrainians love Britain just now. 

 

Shows them up. 

I would humbly suggest more non-Ukranians will die too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, dtgj said:

Aren't they members of Ukraine's armed forces? And not really volunteers. 

 

As such they should be treated the same way as all other prisoners of war. 

 

Yes

 

Not up to date on number of foreigners in British army for example. Less now due to changes in terms and conditions. But a while back 10% of British Army were South African. 

 

Pretty normal. 

Edited by Mikey1874
Link to comment
Share on other sites

26 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

I would humbly suggest more non-Ukranians will die too.

 

Ukraine doesn't release casualty figures though if you want to count the number of pictures on its memorial to dead fighters in Kyiv below.

 

20220531_173551.jpg

Edited by Mikey1874
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Malinga the Swinga
5 hours ago, Cade said:

Two British volunteer fighters captured by the Russians have been sentenced to DEATH by a court in the Donetsk People's Republic.

 

 

It's not good news but what did they expect? I don't think they'll carry out sentence as it would free up Ukrainian forces to do similar with the mercenaries that Russia is using.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Weakened Offender
3 hours ago, Cade said:

Two British volunteer fighters captured by the Russians have been sentenced to DEATH by a court in the Donetsk People's Republic.

 

 

 

Any word on that Hibs fan? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

chuck berrys hairline
1 hour ago, Weakened Offender said:

 

Any word on that Hibs fan? 

Think he left before half time as per usual

Link to comment
Share on other sites

highlandjambo3
8 hours ago, chuck berrys hairline said:

Think he left before half time as per usual

Yup…..tucked up in bed I believe

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Weakened Offender
8 hours ago, chuck berrys hairline said:

Think he left before half time as per usual

 

Sounds about right. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Japan Jambo
1 hour ago, highlandjambo3 said:

Yup…..tucked up in bed I believe

 

with a bevy of beauties or a can of kestrel and a back edition of Razzle?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

highlandjambo3
3 minutes ago, Japan Jambo said:

 

with a bevy of beauties or a can of kestrel and a back edition of Razzle?

Judging by the local clientele it would be the kestrel and Razzle for me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Are folk still comparing the 2 guys captured and sentenced to death with mercenaries like the daft Hibs fan?

These are guys who signed up for the Ukraine army 4 years ago, live there and in at least one of their cases married a Ukrainian girl.

They are prisoners of war and should be treated as per the Geneva convention, I seriously doubt that Russia will follow through with their threat.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Russia reputedly running out of modern missiles, and will be reverting to their stockpile of older soviet era ones.

Ukraine running out of most types of ammunition.

 

Ukraine reportedly about to be granted "candidate" status for EU accession.

 

Sanctions have almost destroyed the Russian car industry. Sales are down 83%.

Sources reckon that up to half of airworthy Russian passenger aircraft will end up as donators for parts to keep the other half in the sky.

Computer manufacturers are struggling to find parts. This has a knock-on effect to the Russian war machine.

 

Both sides are taking huge losses on the eastern front.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sawdust Caesar
On 11/06/2022 at 23:33, Cade said:

Russia reputedly running out of modern missiles, and will be reverting to their stockpile of older soviet era ones.

Ukraine running out of most types of ammunition.

 

Ukraine reportedly about to be granted "candidate" status for EU accession.

 

Sanctions have almost destroyed the Russian car industry. Sales are down 83%.

Sources reckon that up to half of airworthy Russian passenger aircraft will end up as donators for parts to keep the other half in the sky.

Computer manufacturers are struggling to find parts. This has a knock-on effect to the Russian war machine.

 

Both sides are taking huge losses on the eastern front.

 

They have just released a new Lada Granta which they have described as "sanction-proof" as it is made with all Russian-made components. It has no airbags, no anti-lock braking system, no GPS and no seatbelt pretensioners. Still, it's probably safer to ride around in than a T-62 tank in Ukraine.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Sawdust Caesar said:

They have just released a new Lada Granta which they have described as "sanction-proof" as it is made with all Russian-made components. It has no airbags, no anti-lock braking system, no GPS and no seatbelt pretensioners. 

So a Land Rover then?!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

dobmisterdobster

McDonalds is open again in Russia under a new name.

 

587525370_Screenshot_2022-06-13-15-28-51-580_com.instagram.android2.thumb.jpg.71d94d7c7a2d4887ac20dea8b9071f18.jpg

 

They have even replaced Coke with their own soft drinks.

 

177514874_Screenshot_2022-06-13-15-28-47-709_com.instagram.android2.thumb.jpg.6201b0d7c00085efc0c5467e40388e12.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If that's real, why have they used english text for the labels on their soft drinks? :laugh: Not very nationalist of them.

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

JudyJudyJudy
On 09/06/2022 at 15:22, Dirk McClaymore said:

 

They knew the risks.

They'll be made an example of and publicly shot.

No danger our government will do anything about this.

Seriously what did they expect?

On 09/06/2022 at 23:30, chuck berrys hairline said:

Think he left before half time as per usual

Back in the Niddrie crib chasing the " burds" Ive been told. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Russian military reported to be heading to Nicaragua, might be worth keeping an eye on if Russian troops make it to North America.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

manaliveits105
17 hours ago, dobmisterdobster said:

McDonalds is open again in Russia under a new name.

 

587525370_Screenshot_2022-06-13-15-28-51-580_com.instagram.android2.thumb.jpg.71d94d7c7a2d4887ac20dea8b9071f18.jpg

 

They have even replaced Coke with their own soft drinks.

 

177514874_Screenshot_2022-06-13-15-28-47-709_com.instagram.android2.thumb.jpg.6201b0d7c00085efc0c5467e40388e12.jpg

Whit nae Ivan Bru ??

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ron Burgundy
1 hour ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

You can sense the west rapidly losing interest in Ukraine 

Hardly anyone has their flag as a Facebook profile pic anymore.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

You can sense the west rapidly losing interest in Ukraine 

Haven't heard much from Ben Wallace recently. The bullish rubbishing of the Russian military - missing objectives, stalled progress. Just posturing shite. Yet people talk of leadership material

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Riccarton3 said:

Haven't heard much from Ben Wallace recently. The bullish rubbishing of the Russian military - missing objectives, stalled progress. Just posturing shite. Yet people talk of leadership material

Anyone who thought, even with Western help, that it wouldn’t go this way, is deluded.

Sounds callous as **** but a lot of new weapons have been tried out in battle situations. The West will pore over every aspect of this conflict.

It was a response to keep Putin to his limits on this.

Hope it’s over soon for the civilians’ sake.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.




×
×
  • Create New...