Inflation

[ArcticJambo]

2 hours ago, luckydug said:

My first mortgage was fixed at 11% back in 1991. 

I thought I was getting a good deal. 

Dread to think of the carnage if mortgages go up to that again. 

I've been wondering where people are getting the money for those expensive new builds as it is. 

 

Who are these people, and what do they do? Are they coming from Edinburgh/Lothians/Scotland/England? Quite curious.

[Spellczech]

2 hours ago, luckydug said:

My first mortgage was fixed at 11% back in 1991. 

I thought I was getting a good deal. 

Dread to think of the carnage if mortgages go up to that again. 

I've been wondering where people are getting the money for those expensive new builds as it is. 

 

If old, cash buyers.

 

If young, Bank of Mum & Dad and/or Govt Help to Buy Scheme and/or Housebuyer ISAs

 

Those are my guesses...

[Spellczech]

5 hours ago, gjcc said:

Completely agree but there’s also a huge chunk in the middle that have put themselves in a sticky situation through lifestyle inflation. 
 

I’ve got friends who spend £400+ a month in cars they will never pay off. They are lucky to have enough equity for a deposit for the next one. 
 

I’ve got friends who are paying through the nose for 4+ bed houses despite only two folk living there. 
 

I’ve got friends who go on 2 big holidays a year with city breaks in between. 
 

These are the same friends that are moaning on Facebook about how they are going to struggle with these rises. People are free to do what they want with their money. However, don’t moan about it when there’s non-essential things to trim off the budget.

Never mind keeping up with the Joneses that’s trying to catch up with the Rees-Moggs. 
 

They think I’m the crazy one for looking longer term, not doing all the same nice things and not living paycheque to paycheque/crippling myself with debt to do it. 
 

Folk lower down are going to die because of this so I’m not going to be sympathetic because someone has to change their holiday to Florida to one in Tenerife instead. 
 

On the plus side. Plenty more photo opportunities coming up for Tory MP’s to open food banks. 

Plus pension pots have taken a hammering in the last 3 weeks... 

[Spellczech]

On 19/01/2022 at 14:41, jb102 said:

While Scotland floats on hydrocarbons we are not allowed to access.

 

We've just blown up our last fossil fuel power station too! Oops

[Cade]

It's the over-reliance on fossil fuels that's got us into this pickle.

Gas it at stupid prices right now, and oil is over $90 a barrel.

 

Not to mention that the places we get them from (Russia and the Middle East) are not exactly reliable suppliers or worthy of being given our money.

[Nucky Thompson]

2 hours ago, jambo89 said:

 

The average house was 4 times the average salary back then. It's now closer to 10 times the average salary. You're not that stupid to know this, so assume you are trolling.

Your right, they gave us 100% mortgage at 2.5 times the highest wage and 1 times the lowest wage for a couple.

I didn't know that they might be giving people mortgages at 10 times their salaries. 

If that's the case then loads of people are going to be fecked

Edited February 4, 2022 by Nucky Thompson
I meant times the annual wage

[The Mighty Thor]

8 hours ago, Nucky Thompson said:

Your right, they gave us 100% mortgage at 2.5 times the highest wage and 1 times the lowest wage for a couple.

I didn't know that they might be giving people mortgages at 10 times their salaries. 

If that's the case then loads of people are going to be fecked

And you've just had your eyes opened to the great Tory 'you're really middle class' grift. 

Wait til you find out the rest of their shtick is utter bollocks too and that they couldn't give a shiny shite about the 'useful idiots' that keep them in power. 

Edited February 5, 2022 by The Mighty Thor

[Greedy Jambo]

£2.75 for a tube of pringles in Scotmid. 

That's feckin outrageous. 

[WorldChampions1902]

53 minutes ago, Greedy Jambo said:

£2.75 for a tube of pringles in Scotmid. 

That's feckin outrageous. 

Stock up! This time next year, you’ll be paying 4 quid.

[gjcc]

30 minutes ago, WorldChampions1902 said:

Stock up! This time next year, you’ll be paying 4 quid.

As if normal folk will be able to afford luxuries next year.  

[WorldChampions1902]

42 minutes ago, gjcc said:

As if normal folk will be able to afford luxuries next year.  

Like heating. ☺️

[NANOJAMBO]

On 04/02/2022 at 18:39, luckydug said:

My first mortgage was fixed at 11% back in 1991. 

I thought I was getting a good deal. 

Dread to think of the carnage if mortgages go up to that again. 

I've been wondering where people are getting the money for those expensive new builds as it is. 

 

Lenders have made it easy for them -

interest only mortgages

"half & half" - assumes borrowers get an inheritance and can pay off with a lump sum at some futuure date

simply allowing borrowers to have mortgages up to age 75 and making them take life cover (making even more money)

allow defaulting borrowers to simply extend the length of the mortgage and artifically lowering monthly repayments (but payable for another 10 years).

[ri Alban]

9 hours ago, Greedy Jambo said:

£2.75 for a tube of pringles in Scotmid. 

That's feckin outrageous. 

2 quid in Tesco. I hope they go up to a tenner, so I stop eating them .

[ri Alban]

We should all be taking pay cuts and be grateful.  👍

[WorldChampions1902]

45 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

We should all be taking pay cuts and be grateful.  👍

Speaking as someone who has been involved in negotiating pay rises for union members working for a large corporation, I can assure you that our members have already been suffering a real-terms pay cut every year bar one, since 2009. Resulting in their pay today, having 15% less purchasing power than it had in 2009. Over 1 million NHS staff have been in the same boat, victims of Tory Austerity Policies.

 

Now we have the Tories telling us that “Brexit is delivering a high wage economy”, whilst the Bank of England simultaneously tells us not to ask for a pay rise. Jeez.

[ri Alban]

1 hour ago, WorldChampions1902 said:

Speaking as someone who has been involved in negotiating pay rises for union members working for a large corporation, I can assure you that our members have already been suffering a real-terms pay cut every year bar one, since 2009. Resulting in their pay today, having 15% less purchasing power than it had in 2009. Over 1 million NHS staff have been in the same boat, victims of Tory Austerity Policies.

 

Now we have the Tories telling us that “Brexit is delivering a high wage economy”, whilst the Bank of England simultaneously tells us not to ask for a pay rise. Jeez.

It's outrageous. 

[NANOJAMBO]

2 hours ago, WorldChampions1902 said:

 

 

Now we have the Tories telling us that “Brexit is delivering a high wage economy”, whilst the Bank of England simultaneously tells us not to ask for a pay rise. Jeez.

Johnson deliberately used the brexit induced labour shortage which resulted in rocketing wages for HGV drivers (since ameliorated by law changes and lessened restrictions on EU imported drivers) to create the fallacy that we were all better off via higher wages . In fact all it did was add to existing  inflationary pressures.

 

We seem to be down the rabbit hole - in the 70s , high wage demands were bad and fuelled inflation but now high wages are a brexit benefit and are all good (and no mention of the inflationary pressures). 

 

In the meantime the BoE is telling everyone not to demand high wages but no one ever says companies can't demand high profits. 

[Cade]

Zimbabwe also has a "high wage economy".

 

Workers in Zimbabwe get paid billions a month.

[WorldChampions1902]

8 minutes ago, NANOJAMBO said:

Johnson deliberately used the brexit induced labour shortage which resulted in rocketing wages for HGV drivers (since ameliorated by law changes and lessened restrictions on EU imported drivers) to create the fallacy that we were all better off via higher wages . In fact all it did was add to existing  inflationary pressures.

 

We seem to be down the rabbit hole - in the 70s , high wage demands were bad and fuelled inflation but now high wages are a brexit benefit and are all good (and no mention of the inflationary pressures). 

 

In the meantime the BoE is telling everyone not to demand high wages but no one ever says companies can't demand high profits. 

I posted exactly this point on the Brexit thread well before Christmas when the HGV issue became newsworthy. I finished that rant with, “what can possibly go wrong?”. Well here we are folks!

 

Some on that thread we’re getting right behind the principle of huge pay rises for HGV drivers (and others), whilst refusing to accept it was a (potentially damaging) consequence of Brexit, being dressed up by this Junta as something they had proactively engineered. And like many Brexiteers ‘thought process’, once again there was no thought given to the wider consequences.

[Francis Albert]

On 04/02/2022 at 20:01, jambo89 said:

 

The average house was 4 times the average salary back then. It's now closer to 10 times the average salary. You're not that stupid to know this, so assume you are trolling.

There is of course a relationship between low interest rates and high house prices. When we bought our first house mortgage interest rates severely limited what we could pay for a house

[jambo89]

1 hour ago, Francis Albert said:

There is of course a relationship between low interest rates and high house prices. When we bought our first house mortgage interest rates severely limited what we could pay for a house

I assume when you bought your house, the average house price wasn’t 10 times the average salary to though. 

[Francis Albert]

34 minutes ago, jambo89 said:

I assume when you bought your house, the average house price wasn’t 10 times the average salary to though. 

My point was precisely that when interest rates were over 15 per cent, average house prices were not 10 times the average salary. And couldn't be. Decades of relatively low interest rates enabled people to buy houses at higher multiples of their salary and contributed greatly to house price inflation. 

[jambo89]

1 hour ago, Francis Albert said:

My point was precisely that when interest rates were over 15 per cent, average house prices were not 10 times the average salary. And couldn't be. Decades of relatively low interest rates enabled people to buy houses at higher multiples of their salary and contributed greatly to house price inflation. 

So wages haven't kept in line with hous prices due to the availabilty of cheaper credit. Can you see a problem with that?

[Hannibal Lecter]

23 hours ago, Greedy Jambo said:

£2.75 for a tube of pringles in Scotmid. 

That's feckin outrageous. 

 

That's cheap compared to our local Scotmid - £3.75 a tube,

Edited February 6, 2022 by Hannibal Lecter

[Cade]

The entire western economy is built on debt.

People are encouraged to borrow and spend so the economy constantly grows.

 

Housing stock is responsible for £1.6 TRILLION of the UK's personal debt.

The UK is particularly bad when it comes to relying on constantly rising house prices to give a false impression of a growing economy.

The bubble is all that matters so government uses general taxation to keep it inflated.

Help to buy is the government subsidising the housing bubble

Help to guy ISAs are the government subsidising the housing bubble

Rent-to-buy grants for housing developers is the government subsidising the housing bubble
Shared ownership grants for housing developers is the government subsiding the housing bubble

Even housing benefit is the government subsidising the housing bubble. Keeps rents high, which keeps landlord yields high which makes housing a more attractive investment, which keeps purchase prices high

There's lots more grants, tax breaks and exemptions that the government is using to keep the housing prices going up and up and up.

As so many times before since the 1980s, the entire UK economy is built on a giant housing bubble.

House prices go up, so people need to borrow more, and this is recorded as economic growth.

We never learn.

 

 

[Greedy Jambo]

I made the mistake of going back to Scotmid today, now the beer has gone up 

[heartsfc_fan]

6 minutes ago, Greedy Jambo said:

I made the mistake of going back to Scotmid today, now the beer has gone up 

Seen that at mine. 10x cans of San Miguel was usually £11.

Now £14

[Francis Albert]

16 hours ago, jambo89 said:

So wages haven't kept in line with hous prices due to the availabilty of cheaper credit. Can you see a problem with that?

Yes. I was describing one of the factors  (cheap credit) that created the problem of unaffordable housing.  Cade's post above elaborates on that.

TBH I don't really understand your point.

 

 

[jamb0_1874]

Its been drilled into us decades that high house prices are a really good thing, leading news stories telling us all how the housing market is booming and that prices have increased by XX% and now we are at the situation where they are so high that the average joe cant afford them in the traditional manner, so the government / banks are offering all manner of weird and wonderful ways to get people to burden themselves with horrendous debts to allow themselves to own their own property. Still it could be worse you could be in England where you can own the actual property but not the land it sits on... 

 

Anyway in other news to cheer us all up. 

 

Beer prices will have to rise, says Cobra founder - BBC News

 

Worst to come for food price rises, Tesco boss says - BBC News

 

 

 

 

 

 

[jambo89]

1 hour ago, Francis Albert said:

Yes. I was describing one of the factors  (cheap credit) that created the problem of unaffordable housing.  Cade's post above elaborates on that.

TBH I don't really understand your point.

 

 

My point was in response to someone else claiming it was easier nowadays for people, due to lower interest rates on mortgages. Whilst they may have had higher interest rates 40 years ago, the average house price (and therefore mortgage) was much lower and, in relative terms, compared to the annual salary, much more affordable back then and not, as they suggested , more difficult back then. 

[Gizmo]

On 04/02/2022 at 17:29, Captain Sausage said:

Folk are reliant on cheap debt because the flat you bought in the 80s now costs 1000% more.
 

The boomer attitude of ‘suck it up’ is so frustrating and makes no effort to understand why people are so grossly indebted. 

It's Ok folks, Kirsty Allsop has the solution - just move somewhere cheaper (and presumably scummier) to buy a house, whilst giving up the gym (who needs to be healthy after all) etc etc etc. Surprised she didn't tell them to chop up their flat screen TV and burn it for heating - since these along with internet/mobile phones are still seen as luxury item for those politicians who used our tax money to buy £6K plasma screens back in the day or install an expensive car phone in the boot of their bentleys.   

Kirsty Allsop, daughter of a Baron who is said to have bought her first property with family help at the age of 21. At that time, the average house price in the UK was about £51,000.

Basically, poor families - just try harder eh? 🙄

Proper fuming at the posh entitled twats these days. Now whilst you can technically call it jealous (and I'd argue back - how did these Barons end up with their wealth and land without historically stealing it or making coin off the back of exploited underpaid workers (or even slaves) but fine, they are minted. Good for them, but don't tell some poor sod trudging to the food bank because the DWP makes them wait weeks for money after the Governmennt's incompetence shut down their workplace, how to budget or the price of a pint of ****ing milk. 

🤬

 

[Francis Albert]

41 minutes ago, jambo89 said:

My point was in response to someone else claiming it was easier nowadays for people, due to lower interest rates on mortgages. Whilst they may have had higher interest rates 40 years ago, the average house price (and therefore mortgage) was much lower and, in relative terms, compared to the annual salary, much more affordable back then and not, as they suggested , more difficult back then. 

I am not sure Nucky Thomson was even saying that but my initial reply to you was simply to point out that interest rates and house prices are related and can't be  viewed in isolation. Cheap credit has helped fuel house price inflation. So in answer to your earlier question to me our first house  (I could not have afforded it on my single salary) was cheap as chips compared to what it would cost today. But the biggest barrier to buying was the cost of the mortgage, which at 15% interest rate took a huge lump out of our wages. So comparing average house prices now and then tells only part of the story. I am not sure it was that much easier to get on the housing ladder 40 odd years ago, certainly in  London, than it is now. 

[Cade]

The Bank of England knows that the housing market is too hot, but so many people have borrowed to the hilt to get a house so they're loathe to put interest rates up.

But inflation is about to run away, so they HAVE to put interest rates up.

They're caught between inflationary pressure and a bursting housing bubble.

So the BoE is pishing around the edges, creeping interest rates up by tiny wee amounts.

Grim times ahead for everyone.

 

 

[Francis Albert]

1 hour ago, Gizmo said:

It's Ok folks, Kirsty Allsop has the solution - just move somewhere cheaper (and presumably scummier) to buy a house, whilst giving up the gym (who needs to be healthy after all) etc etc etc. Surprised she didn't tell them to chop up their flat screen TV and burn it for heating - since these along with internet/mobile phones are still seen as luxury item for those politicians who used our tax money to buy £6K plasma screens back in the day or install an expensive car phone in the boot of their bentleys.   

Kirsty Allsop, daughter of a Baron who is said to have bought her first property with family help at the age of 21. At that time, the average house price in the UK was about £51,000.

Basically, poor families - just try harder eh? 🙄

Proper fuming at the posh entitled twats these days. Now whilst you can technically call it jealous (and I'd argue back - how did these Barons end up with their wealth and land without historically stealing it or making coin off the back of exploited underpaid workers (or even slaves) but fine, they are minted. Good for them, but don't tell some poor sod trudging to the food bank because the DWP makes them wait weeks for money after the Governmennt's incompetence shut down their workplace, how to budget or the price of a pint of ****ing milk. 

🤬

 

Kirsty certainly doesn't  look like the gym is a necessity for her!

To add to my tale of house buying 40 odd years ago ( without going full Monty Python  Yorkshire sketch) I think we did have the advantage of not having or expecting to have so much stuff that is considered essential by many today, and therefore lower outgoings. 

Not suggesting people should forego these things but I think  it is relevant if making judgements about the "fortunate" baby boomers and the downtrodden millennials and other later generations.

[Cade]

 

 

 

This is also a reason why housing was cheaper in the 70s, more houses were being built then than at any other time. More houses, lower population competing for those houses. Cheap.

55million people in the UK in 1970.
66million now. And building half as many houses.

 

 

[WorldChampions1902]

We also had the advantage of MIRAS - Mortgage Interest Relief At Source, remember that? Where the taxpayer subsidised our mortgage payments via tax relief.

 

I totally agree that the younger generation have been totally screwed on so many factors relating to their home ownership aspirations. I have two grown-up kids of my own, one of which has managed to get on the housing ladder in recent years and it is a real challenge. They have my complete sympathy.

[The Mighty Thor]

22 minutes ago, WorldChampions1902 said:

I totally agree that the younger generation have been totally screwed on so many factors relating to their home ownership aspirations. I have two grown-up kids of my own, one of which has managed to get on the housing ladder in recent years and it is a real challenge. They have my complete sympathy.

It's not just home ownership. The younger generation have been roped into the long con of the debt treadmill from an earlier age by being sold the dream of the 'Uni experience', where the poor feckers are being drip fed the whole 'if you don't go to Uni, you won't get a high paying job' schtick from a very young age. 

Off they trot for 4 years of a 'superior education' at an exorbitant cost either through tuition fees or living expenses and et voila they're £30k in the hole before they've struck a meaningful blow in life. 

To make matters worse they come out into a job market where everyone and their dug has at least a Desmond and that £30k investment suddenly ain't that advantageous.

 

But they're middle class 👍

[jambo89]

3 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

I am not sure Nucky Thomson was even saying that but my initial reply to you was simply to point out that interest rates and house prices are related and can't be  viewed in isolation. Cheap credit has helped fuel house price inflation. So in answer to your earlier question to me our first house  (I could not have afforded it on my single salary) was cheap as chips compared to what it would cost today. But the biggest barrier to buying was the cost of the mortgage, which at 15% interest rate took a huge lump out of our wages. So comparing average house prices now and then tells only part of the story. I am not sure it was that much easier to get on the housing ladder 40 odd years ago, certainly in  London, than it is now. 

He said ' people will just have to suck it up, when I bought my first flat the interest was 13%'. Not sure why he needed to add the interest rate if he wasn't suggesting that.

 

I'd also suggest that a huge lump of peoples wages are going on their mortagages even today, the intrest might not be as high, but the amount borrowed is much much more. 15% on 20,000 might seem a lot, but it's better than 5% on 260,000.

 

I compared average annual salary against average hosue prices, which you agreed hasn't kept in line with relatively speaking (due to the availabilty of cheap credit) a 10% drop in interest rate for first time buyers doesn't negate the fact that house prices are now 10 times the average salary, compared to 4 times the avearge salary.

 

You might think its just as hard to get on the property ladder nowadays as it was back then, but I disagree and so do the experts

[Francis Albert]

19 minutes ago, jambo89 said:

He said ' people will just have to suck it up, when I bought my first flat the interest was 13%'. Not sure why he needed to add the interest rate if he wasn't suggesting that.

 

I'd also suggest that a huge lump of peoples wages are going on their mortagages even today, the intrest might not be as high, but the amount borrowed is much much more. 15% on 20,000 might seem a lot, but it's better than 5% on 260,000.

 

I compared average annual salary against average hosue prices, which you agreed hasn't kept in line with relatively speaking (due to the availabilty of cheap credit) a 10% drop in interest rate for first time buyers doesn't negate the fact that house prices are now 10 times the average salary, compared to 4 times the avearge salary.

 

You might think its just as hard to get on the property ladder nowadays as it was back then, but I disagree and so do the experts

I assume he mentioned the interest rate because it was part of his point. And mine. You can't compare the difficulty people face in getting onto the housing ladder just by comparing house prices and ignoring the availability and cost of mortgages.

I did not say whether it is more or less difficult now than then. 

 

[Captain Sausage]

35 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

I assume he mentioned the interest rate because it was part of his point. And mine. You can't compare the difficulty people face in getting onto the housing ladder just by comparing house prices and ignoring the availability and cost of mortgages.

I did not say whether it is more or less difficult now than then. 

 

It is empirically more difficult to get on the ladder now than 40 years ago. No amount of mental gymnastics is going to change that. 
 

https://www.howellslegal.co.uk/news/post/Historic-House-Prices-Research-Shows-Your-Parents-Definitely-Had-it-Easier-

 

Also, the whole ‘avocado millennial’ banter is chronic. If I bought smashed avocado and a latte everyday at say £10, I’d need to forego it for 15 years just to get a £50k deposit. It’s an absolutely shite straw man argument. 

[Captain Sausage]

5 hours ago, Gizmo said:

It's Ok folks, Kirsty Allsop has the solution - just move somewhere cheaper (and presumably scummier) to buy a house, whilst giving up the gym (who needs to be healthy after all) etc etc etc. Surprised she didn't tell them to chop up their flat screen TV and burn it for heating - since these along with internet/mobile phones are still seen as luxury item for those politicians who used our tax money to buy £6K plasma screens back in the day or install an expensive car phone in the boot of their bentleys.   

Kirsty Allsop, daughter of a Baron who is said to have bought her first property with family help at the age of 21. At that time, the average house price in the UK was about £51,000.

Basically, poor families - just try harder eh? 🙄

Proper fuming at the posh entitled twats these days. Now whilst you can technically call it jealous (and I'd argue back - how did these Barons end up with their wealth and land without historically stealing it or making coin off the back of exploited underpaid workers (or even slaves) but fine, they are minted. Good for them, but don't tell some poor sod trudging to the food bank because the DWP makes them wait weeks for money after the Governmennt's incompetence shut down their workplace, how to budget or the price of a pint of ****ing milk. 

🤬

 

Great post. The disconnect of these idiots is beyond reproach. 

[Francis Albert]

31 minutes ago, Captain Sausage said:

It is empirically more difficult to get on the ladder now than 40 years ago. No amount of mental gymnastics is going to change that. 
 

https://www.howellslegal.co.uk/news/post/Historic-House-Prices-Research-Shows-Your-Parents-Definitely-Had-it-Easier-

 

Also, the whole ‘avocado millennial’ banter is chronic. If I bought smashed avocado and a latte everyday at say £10, I’d need to forego it for 15 years just to get a £50k deposit. It’s an absolutely shite straw man argument. 

So what is basically an advert for a conveyancing solicitors firm settles any debate ... not that there has really been anything much in the way of debate on this thread.

[jambo89]

50 minutes ago, Captain Sausage said:

It is empirically more difficult to get on the ladder now than 40 years ago. No amount of mental gymnastics is going to change that. 
 

https://www.howellslegal.co.uk/news/post/Historic-House-Prices-Research-Shows-Your-Parents-Definitely-Had-it-Easier-

 

Also, the whole ‘avocado millennial’ banter is chronic. If I bought smashed avocado and a latte everyday at say £10, I’d need to forego it for 15 years just to get a £50k deposit. It’s an absolutely shite straw man argument. 

You’re wasting on your time. No amount of evidence will convince him it’s more difficult to get on the ladder these days than it was back then.  

[Captain Sausage]

23 hours ago, jambo89 said:

You’re wasting on your time. No amount of evidence will convince him it’s more difficult to get on the ladder these days than it was back then.  

Back in his day they didn’t have avocado toast or iPhones though. Would defo be able to save for a house without those pesky brunches. 

[Nucky Thompson]

On 07/02/2022 at 16:36, The Mighty Thor said:

It's not just home ownership. The younger generation have been roped into the long con of the debt treadmill from an earlier age by being sold the dream of the 'Uni experience', where the poor feckers are being drip fed the whole 'if you don't go to Uni, you won't get a high paying job' schtick from a very young age. 

Off they trot for 4 years of a 'superior education' at an exorbitant cost either through tuition fees or living expenses and et voila they're £30k in the hole before they've struck a meaningful blow in life. 

To make matters worse they come out into a job market where everyone and their dug has at least a Desmond and that £30k investment suddenly ain't that advantageous.

 

But they're middle class 👍

Are you saying bright kids shouldn't go to University?

You don't need to be middle class either 

[The Mighty Thor]

8 minutes ago, Nucky Thompson said:

Are you saying bright kids shouldn't go to University?

You don't need to be middle class either 

Did you actually read my post?

If 'bright' kids want to swallow a £30k handicap then they can horse on!

They won't be middle class. They'll just think they are. 

[Captain Sausage]

Just now, The Mighty Thor said:

Did you actually read my post?

If 'bright' kids want to swallow a £30k handicap then they can horse on!

They won't be middle class. They'll just think they are. 

I think the problem is, as usual, a little more nuanced. 
 

Want to do engineering? Medicine? Law? Probably worth heading off to uni. 
 

Want to study business administration? Event planning? Fashion? Probably best to skip uni. 

[The Mighty Thor]

13 minutes ago, Captain Sausage said:

I think the problem is, as usual, a little more nuanced. 
 

Want to do engineering? Medicine? Law? Probably worth heading off to uni. 
 

Want to study business administration? Event planning? Fashion? Probably best to skip uni. 

That was my original point. 

It's become something you absolutely have to do as a kid. Otherwise you'll not be successful oh and here's this whole industry of education and accommodation and its all yours for 30k buy now pay later. 

Get them on the debt treadmill early and they'll never get off

[Jambo_jim2001]

Three of my mates went to university in late 80s early 90s,two are taxi drivers and one is a bus driver,,nothing against either profession.all those years for them wasted studying, getting their degrees for their preferred jobs,only to discover they hated it.another mate left school ,joined the polis,retired 5 years ago on a pension that would choke a horse, don't envy him that due to the absolute stuff he's had to do,see and put up with.

[Nucky Thompson]

36 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Did you actually read my post?

If 'bright' kids want to swallow a £30k handicap then they can horse on!

They won't be middle class. They'll just think they are. 

Luckily you won't need to swallow anything in Scotland.

One thing I can give the SG credit for