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Hearts vs Hibs academies


Rick James

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On 18/01/2022 at 19:26, Footballfirst said:

I have been watching academy and U19/U20 games regularly for getting on for 15 years.  In those early years I saw loads of potential coming through from the days of Callum Elliot, Lee Wallace, David Templeton, Eggert Jonsson, Ryan McGowan right up to the 1996 group (18 in 2016).  However, since then, there is no doubt the output from the academy has deteriorated.

 

There have always been promising players up to 15/16, who then struggle to force themselves into the first team squad.  It could be recruitment, or coaching, that hasn't delivered. 

 

We often criticise the failure to develop a decent striker. That could equally be said about developing anyone who looks strong or plays physically. Perhaps we recruit too many "nice", technically proficient players, but don't have all the attributes needed to play first team football.  Can it be coached into them? Probably, but recent experience suggests not.

 

Even at the top end of the academy, just now, I don't hold out much hope for many having a future with the club.  That said, the younger age groups (2007-10s) are looking much better.  They do have the technique and pace to compete, but it remains to be seen if they develop physically and mentally to be able to make the transition from academy prospect to first team regular.  Unfortunately we have a few years to wait to find out.

I've always thought there are a 4 reasonably obvious physical things in the requirements: Pace, Strength, Height and Technique. Any pro footballer needs a bare minimum of 2 of these things. Strength and height are harder to judge in kids than the other 2 - I remember at my school there was a guy who was the tallest and strongest in 1st year, but by 6th year he was shorter than most of us and weaker than many too. I've no idea why we've been producing players whom I would suggest only have technique over the last few years...

Edited by Spellczech
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Footballfirst
1 minute ago, Spellczech said:

I've always thought there are a 4 reasonably obvious things in the requirements: Pace, Strength, Height and Technique. Any pro footballer needs a bare minimum of 2 of these things. Strength and height are harder to judge in kids than the other 2 - I remember at my school there was a guy who was the tallest and strongest in 1st year, but by 6th year he was shorter than most of us and weaker than many too. I've no idea why we've been producing players whom I would suggest only have technique over the last few years...

The Ajax academy has an acronym for what they look for, "TIPS"

T - Technique

I - Intelligence (this involves reading the game, vision, seeing and timing passes)

P - Personality (are you a leader, a team player, listener, communicator, winning mentality)

S - Speed

 

I recall talking to John Murray about academy recruitment for an HYDC piece, maybe 12 years ago. He agreed with the above but added one more, "aggression". He liked players that didn't mind getting stuck in and were capable of looking after themselves.

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1 hour ago, Footballfirst said:

The Ajax academy has an acronym for what they look for, "TIPS"

T - Technique

I - Intelligence (this involves reading the game, vision, seeing and timing passes)

P - Personality (are you a leader, a team player, listener, communicator, winning mentality)

S - Speed

 

I recall talking to John Murray about academy recruitment for an HYDC piece, maybe 12 years ago. He agreed with the above but added one more, "aggression". He liked players that didn't mind getting stuck in and were capable of looking after themselves.

Would love to hear the Ajax response to Murray's 5th... Would probably be along the lines of "ah Scotland, still stuck in the 60s..."

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Footballfirst

Hearts U18s beat Celtic 3-0 this evening with goals from Pollock and Kirk (2, 1 pen). It was a well deserved win that could have been more.

 

Hibs U18s play Celtic in the youth cup next friday, but I suspect that it will be a changed Celtic line up as they can call on any of their U18s from their B team in the Lowland League.

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Footballfirst

I've heard a rumour tonight, following the U18 game (not related to the game), that there are changes afoot at the Academy. I am seeking confirmation before naming anyone involved. Anyone heard anything similar? 

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On 18/01/2022 at 19:04, Footballfirst said:

Academy players who have played competitive games for the first team (sorted by birth years)

 

1990 - Gary Glen, Rocky Visconte, Ryan Wallace, Johnny Stewart, Arvydas Novikovas, Mark Ridgers

1991 - Craig Thomson, Gordon Smith, Dylan McGowan

1992 - Scott Robinson, Jordan Morton, Denis Prychynenko 

1993 - Fraser Mullen, Jason Holt, Jamie Walker, Brad McKay, Kevin McHattie, Callum Tapping, David Smith

1994 - Jack Hamilton, Dale Carrick, Callum Paterson, Billy King

1995 - Adam King, Sam Nicholson, Gary Oliver

1996 - Liam Gordon, Jordan McGhee, Angus Beith, Liam Henderson, Robbie Buchanan, Liam Smith

1997 - Nathan Flanagan, Ally Roy

1998 - Lewis Moore

1999 - Daniel Baur, Callumn Morrison

2000 - Andy Irving, Euan Henderson

2001 - Harry Cochrane, Anthony McDonald, Chris Hamilton

2002 - Aaron Hickey, Connor Smith, Leeroy Makovora, Scott McGill, Cammy Logan

2003 - Aiden Denholm

2004 - Finlay Pollock

 

I may have missed the odd individual, but it is pretty evident that, since 2014, the return from the academy has been pretty poor. We clearly had a decent return from those born from 1990-96.  The 1996 group were 18 in 2014, so CL had negligible impact on their development, but would have had increasing influence over the subsequent age groups.

Cheers for posting that, FF.   Some blast from the past names to conjure with there. 

 

  I'm not sure your comparison between the 90-96 group and the 97-04 group holds much water though.   

 

The numbers getting at least 1 first team game are  much higher among the first group, but a fair number of the Scots boys  seem to have either disappeared from SPFL football or have found a level well below Premiership - in other words, we've tried them out and realised they were unlikely to make it at Hearts.      Since admin, I think we've given trial promotions to fewer youngsters  anyway (for whatever reason), but quite a few have shown themselves to be decent in the first team  (Cochrane, McDonald, Irving, Hickey) with the likes of Hamilton, & Pollock in with a chance of making the jump too.

 

The willingness of our managers to give them first-team exposure is another factor.   CL seems to have been  willing to try the young lads, but the Cathro/McPhee/Stendel periods didn't do much to help them.    With our finances and player recruitment improving, Robbie probably finds it easier to an  "experience  first" attitude to  who gets a game.

 

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59 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

I've heard a rumour tonight, following the U18 game (not related to the game), that there are changes afoot at the Academy. I am seeking confirmation before naming anyone involved. Anyone heard anything similar? 

To what extent? I noticed job adverts for the 14s and 15s coaches 

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Footballfirst
5 minutes ago, jambo19 said:

To what extent? I noticed job adverts for the 14s and 15s coaches 

Probably unrelated to what I've heard.  I got info indirectly from two sources, one with a loose connection to the club and the other from an external source.  I've tried a couple of others but haven't had confirmation.

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1 minute ago, Footballfirst said:

Probably unrelated to what I've heard.  I got info indirectly from two sources, one with a loose connection to the club and the other from an external source.  I've tried a couple of others but haven't had confirmation.

Is the news big enough that the club would announce it?

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Footballfirst
2 minutes ago, Stendelnator said:

Is the news big enough that the club would announce it?

I don't know, but I'm looking for answers rather than facing 20 questions about what I heard, until I can get confirmation from a knowledgeable or reliable source.

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10 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

I don't know, but I'm looking for answers rather than facing 20 questions about what I heard, until I can get confirmation from a knowledgeable or reliable source.

Hahaha what an arse. Just asking a question. Clown. 

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pattythejambo
1 hour ago, Footballfirst said:

I've heard a rumour tonight, following the U18 game (not related to the game), that there are changes afoot at the Academy. I am seeking confirmation before naming anyone involved. Anyone heard anything similar? 


hearing Roger Arnott sacked

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6 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

Thank-you.   You have heard the same as me then.

Sacked for football/performance  reasons ?  Or something else ?

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Footballfirst
1 minute ago, Lone Striker said:

Sacked for football/performance  reasons ?  Or something else ?

I understand that Joe Savage spoke to him earlier today.  Sacked, released, surplus to requirements, offered redundancy, resigned? I don't know the circumstances.

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12 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

I understand that Joe Savage spoke to him earlier today.  Sacked, released, surplus to requirements, offered redundancy, resigned? I don't know the circumstances.

As said a few comments back, things are about to change.

Edited by Factuer Moi
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36 minutes ago, pattythejambo said:


hearing Roger Arnott sacked

 

I'm not often critical of people when they move on from the club but I've heard a few stories from trusted people within the academy that make me think this would be a positive move.

 

Nothing too sinister in what I've heard but he just doesn't strike me as being the best man for the job. If he is leaving will be interesting to see if Savage already has someone lined up.

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pattythejambo
9 hours ago, Hungry hippo said:

 

I'm not often critical of people when they move on from the club but I've heard a few stories from trusted people within the academy that make me think this would be a positive move.

 

Nothing too sinister in what I've heard but he just doesn't strike me as being the best man for the job. If he is leaving will be interesting to see if Savage already has someone lined up.

Installed by CL and by all accounts worked to CL’s instructions whether he agreed with them or not , Think his position was always under threat as he was seen as one of the old guard.

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  • 2 weeks later...
2 hours ago, Footballfirst said:

Another Academy appointment

 

 

This a development worth the talk, sensational stuff Hearts. 

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