Hearts vs Hibs academies

[sadj]

5 minutes ago, Thomaso said:

Doesnt answer my question - tell me how Levein improved our Academy?

No it doesn’t and I have no interest in getting into Levein and what he did good or bad for our academy. You sure as **** dont know and couldn’t be objective if you tried in order to discuss it.
 

The poster said With Levein in charge it was no surprise we just produced shite or nothing etc. Except thats not a true reflection of Leveins career and youth development at United for instance is it. Therefore he was talking shite. The rest is not relevant to @Locky and his half and half hearts/hibs scarf wearing question. 

Edited January 18, 2022 by sadj

[Thomaso]

Just now, sadj said:

No it doesn’t and I have no interest in getting into Levein and what he did good or bad for our academy. You sure as **** dont know and couldn’t be objective if you tried in order to discuss it.
 

The poster said With Levein in charge it was no surprise we just produced shite or nothing etc. Except thats not a true reflection of Leveins career and youth development at United for instance is it. Therefore he was talking shite. The rest is not relevant to @Locky and his half and half hearts/hibs scarf question. 

What I do know is that after all the shite on here about Levein doing a fantastic job at the academy it is a fact that we have produced FA in the last 5 years in terms of regular first team players or sell on value, apart from Hickey who started as a Celtic youth player.

Not interested what he did or didn’t do at DU.

[sadj]

Just now, Thomaso said:

What I do know is that after all the shite on here about Levein doing a fantastic job at the academy it is a fact that we have produced FA in the last 5 years in terms of regular first team players or sell on value, apart from Hickey who started as a Celtic youth player.

Not interested what he did or didn’t do at DU.

🥱🥱 see impossible for you to show objectivity , hence not engaging on your question. 

[Bazzas right boot]

4 hours ago, Robbies Tackle said:

 

Craig, Berra and Wallace are the only 3 successes in 20 years.  

 

Depends, guys like Holt, Robinson play at a decent level now,, Driver did OK. 

I'm giving us Hickey as well. 

 

Lots of guys, Zannatta, Morrison etc still play professionally as do Nicholson and iirc the King brothers. 

Rangers also just taken a highly valued Youth from us. 

 

Depends what you mean by success-

 

Selling them? If so does it really matter where the money comes from, Sow, Lafferty for example have netted us nice fees. 

Or

Good enough for us to play regularly at a young age- how often dies this happen at any club? 

Or

Still Playing professionally at other clubs? 

 

 

Not sure we are as bad as folk make out, but Ofc there is room for improvement. 

 

Edited January 18, 2022 by Smith's right boot

[Factuer Moi]

3 minutes ago, Thomaso said:

What I do know is that after all the shite on here about Levein doing a fantastic job at the academy it is a fact that we have produced FA in the last 5 years in terms of regular first team players or sell on value, apart from Hickey who started as a Celtic youth player.

Not interested what he did or didn’t do at DU.

Aaron was with Us then to them, they had him for one year.

[Thomaso]

Just now, sadj said:

🥱🥱 see impossible for you to show objectivity , hence not engaging on your question. 

Oh go on tell me where I’m factually incorrect with my post Sadj?

[jager man]

26 minutes ago, Factuer Moi said:

Doesn't work out though, that is the main point. Pointless right now, until it has a structure that provides the First team squad. So many of our young talent were drafted in through need rather than the top talent. There are those who have been named that have been successful, the present time looks sparce due to covid restrictions cut backs, the badly structured league system between youth and the first team needs worked on. Not many have went directly from our academy and straight into a top side that i can recall, we do not have the right set up to produce the converbelt we all desire. Our players should be schooled at our Academy from the age of 14, live within the grounds as part of the Campus. Those identified would then be front runners to the second or B team, the B team route is the right direction as the Old Firm have sides competing at a good level. That for me would change a lot of the causes for the lacking of produce right now or over the next 3 years .

My first post also highlighted the problems with the Scottish league set up. I agree with most of your points. My post was more in an ideal world kids would be gaining first team level football at a younger age due to bigger league and more so called "meaningless games". I still believe we produce good players up to about age 16 or 17 then struggle to develop them further. And some of your points may address this.

[Thomaso]

1 minute ago, Factuer Moi said:

Aaron was with Us then to them, they had him for one year.

Ok so ONE player who was jointly developed by Hearts and Celtic - ONE! 😏

[Naisys Tackle]

4 hours ago, Boyces beard said:

No doubt, and i agree they have produced a better calibre of player and for that reason most likely have a more successful academy. However Craig Gordon i genuinely feel is/was world class.

 

The spoon burners have never produced a world class player, not one, not ever.

And I don't think they ever will.  As a nation it doesn't happen very often and we can consider ourselves extremely fortunate to having done so. 

[Factuer Moi]

Just now, Thomaso said:

Ok so ONE player who was jointly developed by Hearts and Celtic - ONE! 😏

i was pointing out one thing, Aaron went from us to them back to us, he was with them for one year.

 

[Thomaso]

6 minutes ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

Depends, guys like Holt, Robinson play at a decent level now,, Driver did OK. 

I'm giving us Hickey as well. 

 

Lots of guys, Zannatta, Morrison etc still play professionally as do Nicholson and iirc the King brothers. 

Rangers also just taken a highly valued Youth from us. 

 

Depends what you mean by success-

 

Selling them? If so does it really matter where the money comes from, Sow, Lafferty for example have netted us nice fees. 

Or

Good enough for us to play regularly at a young age- how often dies this happen at any club? 

Or

Still Playing professionally at other clubs? 

 

 

Not sure we are as bad as folk make out, but Ofc there is room for improvement. 

 

Apart from Hearts/Celtic developed, Hickey scraping the bottom of the barrel Tosh - Holt, Robinson, King, Zannatta, Morrison, never made it at Hearts and we’re not offered new contracts.

Driver and Nicholson were hardly world beaters and have done little since leaving Hearts.

Sow and Laff were never near or academy so not relevant to the discussion.

[Thomaso]

5 minutes ago, Factuer Moi said:

i was pointing out one thing, Aaron went from us to them back to us, he was with them for one year.

 

Thanks

[Factuer Moi]

2 minutes ago, jager man said:

My first post also highlighted the problems with the Scottish league set up. I agree with most of your points. My post was more in an ideal world kids would be gaining first team level football at a younger age due to bigger league and more so called "meaningless games". I still believe we produce good players up to about age 16 or 17 then struggle to develop them further. And some of your points may address this.

Outside of our Academy and others, the main issues revolve around creating charging fencing in locking the costly playing surfaces we have in the country. The talent is drying up faster than Stantons pishy knickers, hmm in saying that will be never then. The point is that the wider picture is way more depressing for the future of the Academy, it needs restructured funded with the adition of the education schooled enviroment. Also teaches them much needed life skills and media skills. This is the cause of the lack of any talent coming out of Scotland as far as goal scorers go. I am all out attack at the end of the day

[Footballfirst]

4 minutes ago, Factuer Moi said:

i was pointing out one thing, Aaron went from us to them back to us, he was with them for one year.

 

He spent two years at Hearts (U11, U12), then four years at Celtic (U13-U16), before returning to Hearts.

[Factuer Moi]

2 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

He spent two years at Hearts (U11, U12), then four years at Celtic (U13-U16), before returning to Hearts.

Ah thank you, we had him then got him back. Is possible he was in their Academy for one year.

 

Edited January 18, 2022 by Factuer Moi

[briever]

49 minutes ago, jager man said:

Never said it was. Although selling players to English clubs helps fund our academies. Always has always will. Whether you like it or not.

 

Whilst the best players will always gravitate to the big money, there is also a matter of too many foreign journeymen in Scottish fitba.  The academies from all clubs should be replacing them.

[Mr Brightside]

2 minutes ago, Factuer Moi said:

Outside of our Academy and others, the main issues revolve around creating charging fencing in locking the costly playing surfaces we have in the country. The talent is drying up faster than Stantons pishy knickers, hmm in saying that will be never then. The point is that the wider picture is way more depressing for the future of the Academy, it needs restructured funded with the adition of the education schooled enviroment. Also teaches them much needed life skills and media skills. This is the cause of the lack of any talent coming out of Scotland as far as goal scorers go. I am all out attack at the end of the day

Does that not happen already to some extent with the partnership with Balerno High School.

[Factuer Moi]

1 minute ago, Mr Brightside said:

Does that not happen already to some extent with the partnership with Balerno High School.

Yes it does , one of my nephews was at school and played with Harry Stone. I do not know enough about it. all i was thinking was to set up an official Academy on the campus, this would help bring in wider talent.

Edited January 18, 2022 by Factuer Moi

[Bazzas right boot]

2 minutes ago, Thomaso said:

Apart from Hearts/Celtic developed, Hickey scraping the bottom of the barrel Tosh - Holt, Robinson, King, Zannatta, Morrison, never made it at Hearts and we’re not offered new contracts.

Driver and Nicholson were hardly world beaters and have done little since leaving Hearts.

Sow and Laff were never near or academy so not relevant to the discussion.

 

 

You've not answered the question I gave to the original poster and as per completey missed the point.

 

That point being the successfulness of our youth may be hard to measure and compared to our peers are we an outlier or around average. 

 

If you are measuring success, you need to be smart, Litterally. 

 

If you think success of our youth is measured by world beaters, then you probably need to put down the shandy.

CL gets mentioned acrossed a few Freds, and watch you go. 

It's a good laugh. 

 

If a number of our youth players go on to play professional football that is a degree of success, if they are good and play for us - that is better( although it would depend on how the team is performing, no point in getting a team full of youths who get pumped every week) , if they do that and leave for a high-level - even better ( Although ironically Hearts might not benefit a whole lot from that if they leave too soon) 

 

However, what if they leave early ( say 14/15 after being with us since a young age) then to go to another club and become a success there? 

 

If you're going to froth and say something is successful or not you need metrics, data and a control or it is just slavers, and for  certain folk just a trigger to talk about CL. 

 

 

I was asking a genuine question, if you can't keep up away and annoy someone else with your inane pish. 

 

 

 

[stevie1874]

51 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

Their supposed best prospect right now came through our academy 🤣 Not sure what that says about us or them. Given Doig's opportunities were hampered by an excellent young player being ahead of him, same as with Calum Patterson and Liam Smith, I'll go with it reflecting worse on Hibs.

The boy Doig is the biggest myth yet. Every time I’ve watched a game he’s been involved in he’s either cost a goal or been subbed. 🤷‍♂️

[Footballfirst]

8 minutes ago, Factuer Moi said:

Yes it does , one of my nephews was at school and played with Harry Stone. I do not know enough about it. all i was thinking was to set up an official Academy on the campus, this would help bring in wider talent.

I'm afraid that Hearts is only a tenant at the Oriam, so can't build anything. They could rent additional accommodation at a cost. However, the costs of providing a full school curriculum for a club the size of Hearts would be prohibitive.

[stevie1874]

32 minutes ago, Thomaso said:

What I do know is that after all the shite on here about Levein doing a fantastic job at the academy it is a fact that we have produced FA in the last 5 years in terms of regular first team players or sell on value, apart from Hickey who started as a Celtic youth player.

Not interested what he did or didn’t do at DU.

To be fair to Levein he did give Hickey his chance in the first team and stuck with him when others might not have. 

[Factuer Moi]

7 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

I'm afraid that Hearts is only a tenant at the Oriam, so can't build anything. They could rent additional accommodation at a cost. However, the costs of providing a full school curriculum for a club the size of Hearts would be prohibitive.

Is the brick wall that solid?

[Famous 1874]

Moral of the story is that both teams have massively underperformed in regards to youth development. 

 

Levein & co had to basically start the academy up from scratch and I’m sure Joe Savage will make a good job of it. Although it’s going to take a fair few years to reap the benefits. 

 

The biggest problem for me was the randomness of youth player participation and there was/is not a clear pathway for first team football. E.g Connor Smith who started away at Easter Road, did well but wasn’t seen again? He should have then been put in the first team, not to play every game but to be involved. 

 

There’s a space available in our front 3, up to the likes of Pollock & Henderson in particular to be given a chance. However, Neilson isn’t renowned for youth development + it is difficult to play players when the team are doing well.

 

I hope to see an improvement in our youth recruitment. 

[DS98]

Who have Hibs ‘produced’? 
 

For this argument to hold water they have to have been sold for a significant amount and/or been good enough to play consistently for US not them. 
 

For instance

 

Hanlon, Porteous, Stevenson - not good enough for Hearts. We could’ve kept guys like Liam Gordon, Harry Paton or Josh Doig who are of the same calibre player but wouldn’t make an impact at Hearts. 

 

[Mikey1874]

Only 3% of players from EPL academies play for first team. 

 

Money of course makes a difference. 

[Guest ToqueJambo]

37 minutes ago, Thomaso said:

What I do know is that after all the shite on here about Levein doing a fantastic job at the academy it is a fact that we have produced FA in the last 5 years in terms of regular first team players or sell on value, apart from Hickey who started as a Celtic youth player.

Not interested what he did or didn’t do at DU.

 

How long is it reasonable to expect someone from the Academy to come through? 3-5 years depending how young they are when they arrive?

 

On that basis you have to judge it from 2017/18 onwards surely? We've seen Cochrane, Brandon, Morrison, Henderson and Irving come through and play a decent number of first team games, now Pollock, Smith, McGill, Logan and Stone are supposedly highly rated. Without injury, Cochrane and Brandon might have turned out differently. Henderson still has a chance. Hickey obviously was signed by the academy. We've also seen Doig and Leonard leave and do well. It's a lottery in terms of who makes it but if we have at least one breaking through and getting a decent chance a year that's seems like a good return. After that it's down to any number of factors whether or not they make it at a high level. Ultimately pure talent shines through. It's the way it's always been. 

[jager man]

30 minutes ago, briever said:

 

Whilst the best players will always gravitate to the big money, there is also a matter of too many foreign journeymen in Scottish fitba.  The academies from all clubs should be replacing them.

Agree with you there mate.

[Factuer Moi]

 

[FTH]

1 hour ago, TheBigO said:

Is Shaw not with Bayern or Juve or something now?

 

Steven Fletcher is also still sat by the phone waiting for Real Madrid to call.

[Guest ToqueJambo]

2 minutes ago, FTH said:

 

Steven Fletcher is also still sat by the phone waiting for Real Madrid to call.

 

That was a cracker! To be fair Fletcher is a rare success story of someone who left Hibs and made it at a good level down south. Yet again though, he should have established himself for Scotland and never did, wasting his talent somewhat like a lot of Hibs youth products.

[Unknown user]

2 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

That was a cracker! To be fair Fletcher is a rare success story of someone who left Hibs and made it at a good level down south. Yet again though, he should have established himself for Scotland and never did, wasting his talent somewhat like a lot of Hibs youth products.

 

It was him that videod himself spitting on his rikshaw driver's back and laughing, an absolute roaring ***** of a man.

 

Next PM?

[Thomaso]

1 hour ago, sadj said:

🥱🥱 see impossible for you to show objectivity , hence not engaging on your question. 

Aye right Sadj 🤣

[Mikey1874]

1 hour ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

Their supposed best prospect right now came through our academy 🤣 Not sure what that says about us or them. Given Doig's opportunities were hampered by an excellent young player being ahead of him, same as with Calum Patterson and Liam Smith, I'll go with it reflecting worse on Hibs.

 

Doig and Liam Gordon not the best but at least playing at a decent level. 

[Thomaso]

1 hour ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

 

You've not answered the question I gave to the original poster and as per completey missed the point.

 

That point being the successfulness of our youth may be hard to measure and compared to our peers are we an outlier or around average. 

 

If you are measuring success, you need to be smart, Litterally. 

 

If you think success of our youth is measured by world beaters, then you probably need to put down the shandy.

CL gets mentioned acrossed a few Freds, and watch you go. 

It's a good laugh. 

 

If a number of our youth players go on to play professional football that is a degree of success, if they are good and play for us - that is better( although it would depend on how the team is performing, no point in getting a team full of youths who get pumped every week) , if they do that and leave for a high-level - even better ( Although ironically Hearts might not benefit a whole lot from that if they leave too soon) 

 

However, what if they leave early ( say 14/15 after being with us since a young age) then to go to another club and become a success there? 

 

If you're going to froth and say something is successful or not you need metrics, data and a control or it is just slavers, and for  certain folk just a trigger to talk about CL. 

 

 

I was asking a genuine question, if you can't keep up away and annoy someone else with your inane pish. 

 

 

 

 

[Guest ToqueJambo]

6 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

Doig and Liam Gordon not the best but at least playing at a decent level. 

 

Even Liam Gordon took 5 years to establish himself after leaving us. We do seem to produce a lot of really solid professionals among the ones who don't make it with us, which suggests we do something right.

[OTT]

3 hours ago, sadj said:

What a load of shite. Normal for you though. 
 

The Vlad bit is probably fair enough but he also invested in it , however toward the end it was just decimated. Hibs “golden generation” would never have left Hibs it Celtic hadn’t bought most of them (this may not be factually correct but feels like it). They have produced very little and what O said above is pretty much spot on imo. 

Ouch. 😂

 

Yeah, I recall when Budge took over that the academy had effectively been gutted and suffering the effects of underinvestment. Despite that, it’s still pretty impressive to have produced 3/4 players that did a job for us for about 5 years. Although, Walker and his crop came just before budge and co actually came in. Which still leaves you wondering what added value Levein brought to the academy. 
 

2 hours ago, Footballfirst said:

Vlad did have an interest in youth development. However it was focused on brining on mainly Lithuanian youngsters in the 16-18 age range, only one of which could be deemed as "making it", Arvydas Novikovas. Names of the top of my head included Snapkauskas, Kapustas, Zukovas, Petkus

 

He also opened up our youth recruitment outside Scotland such as Jonsson, McGowan(x2), Prychynenko, Ogleby, Wagner, Kostadinov, Copil

 

Fair point, hadn’t considered those players. 
 

On another note, I’m heart broken Snapkauskas never made it. ‘Scott Browns career ended in horror challenge by Snapkauskas’ has a bit of a ring to it. 😂

 

1 hour ago, Thomaso said:

So tell me what exactly did Levein improve at the Academy?

We do have nearly 8 years of underachievement to point to. I’m not shitting on Levein for the sake of it, I think we all expected a degree of lag from him taking over (ie full benefit won’t be felt for a few years). I just take the view that you have to draw a line at which delayed success becomes failure. 

[Thomaso]

58 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

How long is it reasonable to expect someone from the Academy to come through? 3-5 years depending how young they are when they arrive?

 

On that basis you have to judge it from 2017/18 onwards surely? We've seen Cochrane, Brandon, Morrison, Henderson and Irving come through and play a decent number of first team games, now Pollock, Smith, McGill, Logan and Stone are supposedly highly rated. Without injury, Cochrane and Brandon might have turned out differently. Henderson still has a chance. Hickey obviously was signed by the academy. We've also seen Doig and Leonard leave and do well. It's a lottery in terms of who makes it but if we have at least one breaking through and getting a decent chance a year that's seems like a good return. After that it's down to any number of factors whether or not they make it at a high level. Ultimately pure talent shines through. It's the way it's always been. 

At the end of the day my point stands - apart from Hickey no player out of the academy has been sold for decent money, or been a first team stand out for the last 5 or so years. That does not reflect well on our Academy and the money we have pumped into it.

[sadj]

23 minutes ago, OTT said:

Ouch. 😂

 

Yeah, I recall when Budge took over that the academy had effectively been gutted and suffering the effects of underinvestment. Despite that, it’s still pretty impressive to have produced 3/4 players that did a job for us for about 5 years. Although, Walker and his crop came just before budge and co actually came in. Which still leaves you wondering what added value Levein brought to the academy. 
 

 

Fair point, hadn’t considered those players. 
 

On another note, I’m heart broken Snapkauskas never made it. ‘Scott Browns career ended in horror challenge by Snapkauskas’ has a bit of a ring to it. 😂

 

We do have nearly 8 years of underachievement to point to. I’m not shitting on Levein for the sake of it, I think we all expected a degree of lag from him taking over (ie full benefit won’t be felt for a few years). I just take the view that you have to draw a line at which delayed success becomes failure. 

I think thats a fairer position , I do think that its difficult to judge any academy but the problem to me is more that last step the players have to take. Its a very difficult one and Scottish football is not well designed to accommodate it. With the appointment of Naismith is his role it may improve. Does that mean more will come through. If they do will it mean its because of that , the quality of coaching , the structure , the foundations laid by Levein , the changes made by Savage and Co. Its very difficult to gauge. Therefore it will always be open to interpretation. 
 

In saying that I also think that age groups now coming to the top of the tree are ones where judgement can be made on the quality as most will have been in our system for the full time (FF can maybe confirm or correct this) therefore 14/15 and down Id say is where we need to look to see what comes through.

Edited January 18, 2022 by sadj

[OTT]

5 minutes ago, sadj said:

I think thats a fairer position , I do think that its difficult to judge any academy but the problem to me is more that last step the players have to take. Its a very difficult one and Scottish football is not well designed to accommodate it. With the appointment of Naismith is his role it may improve. Does that mean more will come through. If they do will it mean its because of that , the quality of coaching , the structure , the foundations laid by Levein , the changes made by Savage and Co. Its very difficult to gauge. Therefore it will always be open to interpretation. 
 

In saying that I also think that age groups now coming to the top of the tree are ones where judgement can be made on the quality as most will have been in our system for the full time (FF can maybe confirm or correct this) therefore 14/15 and down Id say is where we need to look to see what comes through.

 

Yeah I wouldn't disagree with any of that. I think there has been a real issue in managing that transition from youth football into senior football. Quite why that problem has arisen should be looked into - I can't imagine we are doing anything differently in that regard that we did under Vlad, but nonetheless if Naismiths appointment can help in managing that transition effectively, then I'm entirely behind that. 

 

One of the things I've noticed, and I'm not sure if this sounds ridiculous, we seem to be producing footballers in a league of cloggers. The likes of Cochrane, Irving etc. all are very much in the ball playing proper footballer mould, as opposed to... I suppose athletes that happen to play football would probably be a fair description for a lot of the players in this league. I wonder if we're not quite striking the right balance. When you look at the physicality of youngsters down south, its night and day to up here. Fair enough, they can afford to send out enough scouts to bring back 10 different types of the same position so can pick the biggest, strongest most technically gifted, but its disheartening to see us producing players who are technically good enough, but not robust enough to actually handle the demands of top flight football. If Cochrane or Irving had been more physical in their make up, they might have been able to hold down their places.

 

Anyway, I really hope the changes Savage has brought/is bringing in work and we begin to see some proper meaningful results. 

[sadj]

7 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

Yeah I wouldn't disagree with any of that. I think there has been a real issue in managing that transition from youth football into senior football. Quite why that problem has arisen should be looked into - I can't imagine we are doing anything differently in that regard that we did under Vlad, but nonetheless if Naismiths appointment can help in managing that transition effectively, then I'm entirely behind that. 

 

One of the things I've noticed, and I'm not sure if this sounds ridiculous, we seem to be producing footballers in a league of cloggers. The likes of Cochrane, Irving etc. all are very much in the ball playing proper footballer mould, as opposed to... I suppose athletes that happen to play football would probably be a fair description for a lot of the players in this league. I wonder if we're not quite striking the right balance. When you look at the physicality of youngsters down south, its night and day to up here. Fair enough, they can afford to send out enough scouts to bring back 10 different types of the same position so can pick the biggest, strongest most technically gifted, but its disheartening to see us producing players who are technically good enough, but not robust enough to actually handle the demands of top flight football. If Cochrane or Irving had been more physical in their make up, they might have been able to hold down their places.

 

Anyway, I really hope the changes Savage has brought/is bringing in work and we begin to see some proper meaningful results. 

👌🏻 Bulking up is in itself a specialised thing. That then opens the question of is the person preparing their routines doing a good enough job , is it self motivation , genetic disposition , is it x y or z. Just so many moving parts to judge. I agree on producing the footballers as opposed to other teams as you say finding a balance is a difficult thing. I think we as a club are in a unique place within Scottish football that can bring its own difficulties. Folk will say yeah but aren’t Aberdeen also. Well no as they are based in the North East and that gives them their own catchment area that unless a player is exceptional means they won’t travel to the Central Belt area for another club. The demands on Hibs are lower , same with United and Rangers and Celtic can pick and choose their talent pool easier. 
 

Difficult one. 

[Footballfirst]

Academy players who have played competitive games for the first team (sorted by birth years)

 

1990 - Gary Glen, Rocky Visconte, Ryan Wallace, Johnny Stewart, Arvydas Novikovas, Mark Ridgers

1991 - Craig Thomson, Gordon Smith, Dylan McGowan

1992 - Scott Robinson, Jordan Morton, Denis Prychynenko 

1993 - Fraser Mullen, Jason Holt, Jamie Walker, Brad McKay, Kevin McHattie, Callum Tapping, David Smith

1994 - Jack Hamilton, Dale Carrick, Callum Paterson, Billy King

1995 - Adam King, Sam Nicholson, Gary Oliver

1996 - Liam Gordon, Jordan McGhee, Angus Beith, Liam Henderson, Robbie Buchanan, Liam Smith

1997 - Nathan Flanagan, Ally Roy

1998 - Lewis Moore

1999 - Daniel Baur, Callumn Morrison

2000 - Andy Irving, Euan Henderson

2001 - Harry Cochrane, Anthony McDonald, Chris Hamilton

2002 - Aaron Hickey, Connor Smith, Leeroy Makovora, Scott McGill, Cammy Logan

2003 - Aiden Denholm

2004 - Finlay Pollock

 

I may have missed the odd individual, but it is pretty evident that, since 2014, the return from the academy has been pretty poor. We clearly had a decent return from those born from 1990-96.  The 1996 group were 18 in 2014, so CL had negligible impact on their development, but would have had increasing influence over the subsequent age groups.

[Footballfirst]

I have been watching academy and U19/U20 games regularly for getting on for 15 years.  In those early years I saw loads of potential coming through from the days of Callum Elliot, Lee Wallace, David Templeton, Eggert Jonsson, Ryan McGowan right up to the 1996 group (18 in 2016).  However, since then, there is no doubt the output from the academy has deteriorated.

 

There have always been promising players up to 15/16, who then struggle to force themselves into the first team squad.  It could be recruitment, or coaching, that hasn't delivered. 

 

We often criticise the failure to develop a decent striker. That could equally be said about developing anyone who looks strong or plays physically. Perhaps we recruit too many "nice", technically proficient players, but don't have all the attributes needed to play first team football.  Can it be coached into them? Probably, but recent experience suggests not.

 

Even at the top end of the academy, just now, I don't hold out much hope for many having a future with the club.  That said, the younger age groups (2007-10s) are looking much better.  They do have the technique and pace to compete, but it remains to be seen if they develop physically and mentally to be able to make the transition from academy prospect to first team regular.  Unfortunately we have a few years to wait to find out.

[jambo19]

For youth academies to be a success there's a few factors:

 

- scouting/recruitment - are we identifying the right players at the right age? From coaching football in Edinburgh for 10 years I've seen more hibs scouts and them picking up players around 14+ age whereas Hearts were looking at younger ages and growing from 7 aside age (maybe not always but from my experience)

 

Academy coaching - are they getting a good standard of physical, technical and mental coaching to step up? Compared to academies down south and with our part time coaches will we get to the standard needed? Great coaches at the club but it's still part time

 

Transition to first team- is their a pathway, players need to breakthrough from 17 onwards and get exposure. With high manager and player turnover its not been a good environment to break into. Maybe with some stability and Neilson/Naismith consistency we might see more come through 

 

The player themselves - are they ready to step up or are they more interested in going up town on a Saturday night with the "I'm a footballer swagger". End of the day hard working, motivated players will go further than talented inviduals who don't grasp the opportunity 

 

What is a successful academy - producing players? We have. Producing players who've played 50 games for Hearts? Producing players who earned us money?

 

As for Hearts vs Hibs, would we take Porteous, Hanlon, Stevenson. Doig or Hickey?

They took Oli Shaw, Jamie Gullan, Jason Cummings, Josh Doig, Aaron Scott, Dino Leddie? How many are good enough for Hearts?

[Lone Striker]

19 hours ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

Even Liam Gordon took 5 years to establish himself after leaving us. We do seem to produce a lot of really solid professionals among the ones who don't make it with us, which suggests we do something right.

Yes, I agree with the point you're making -  we shouldn't just gauge the success of an academy by the number of players who made a decent  first-team career at the club itself.   

 

In Hearts case, there seems to be loads of players now at Premiership clubs who came through at Riccarton - some got a decent run in our first team (e.g. Jamie Mac,  Jason Holt, Scott Robinson, Kevin McHattie), others got released without getting into our first team (e.g. Oli Shaw, Josh Doig, Liam Gordon, Jason Cummings etc).    We can  debate the rights or wrongs of why Hearts let them go - but as you say,  they clearly got a decent start in their development at Riccarton.    

 

On the Hibs v Hearts academy debate, Hibs probably just win in terms of transfer money received for theirs - partly due to their golden generation in the early 2000s mostly going along the M8, plus Fletcher.  However  we've had a decent return too - Gordon, Wallace, Jonsson, Hickey, Berra, Walker & Paterson in the last 20 years all having played  in the EPL/Championship  or Serie A.

 

 

Edited January 19, 2022 by Lone Striker

[Lfhearts]

19 hours ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

Doig and Liam Gordon not the best but at least playing at a decent level. 

In your eyes maybe, have done well enough, Gordon in particular looks solid. The way you write suggests it's correct factually when it's your opinion only.

[Yoda]

23 hours ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

That's the Hibs spin machine for you when it comes to pimping out their own players and trying to inflate their value.

 

Their own fans, despite all the evidence of their own eyes, actually seemed to believe they were turning down million or multi-million pound bids for Porteous, Doig and Nisbet.

They're also claiming to have rejected £2.3M for Ferret Head, from Saudi Arabia.  No way Ron the Con is turning down that sort of cash.

 

Considering they couldn't punt anyone last window, the H1b5 spin machine will be working on overdrive this window, to get Ron's dividend.

[Savage Vince]

On 18/01/2022 at 12:00, Robbies Tackle said:

 

Craig, Berra and Wallace are the only 3 successes in 20 years.  

 

I'm not sure that's fair on Jamie Walker. 

[Guest ToqueJambo]

On 19/01/2022 at 07:08, Yoda said:

They're also claiming to have rejected £2.3M for Ferret Head, from Saudi Arabia.  No way Ron the Con is turning down that sort of cash.

 

Considering they couldn't punt anyone last window, the H1b5 spin machine will be working on overdrive this window, to get Ron's dividend.

 

Ron is the type who WILL have a column in his spreadsheet of KPIs for ROI on transfers, possibly the most important one to him. He's going to be VERY disappointed. Other owners who get football, especially in this league, know that bringing in transfer fees is a bonus not a strategy. The only ROI you can budget for and reasonably expect is bums on seats, STs and league placing/trophies.

[jambo19]

On 18/01/2022 at 18:37, OTT said:

One of the things I've noticed, and I'm not sure if this sounds ridiculous, we seem to be producing footballers in a league of cloggers. The likes of Cochrane, Irving etc. all are very much in the ball playing proper footballer mould, as opposed to... I suppose athletes that happen to play football would probably be a fair description for a lot of the players in this league. I wonder if we're not quite striking the right balance. When you look at the physicality of youngsters down south, its night and day to up here. Fair enough, they can afford to send out enough scouts to bring back 10 different types of the same position so can pick the biggest, strongest most technically gifted, but its disheartening to see us producing players who are technically good enough, but not robust enough to actually handle the demands of top flight football. If Cochrane or Irving had been more physical in their make up, they might have been able to hold down their places.

This is a big one for me why scottish football won't progress against its peers. Nations of a similar population like Croatia seem to do well. Look at the media after the midweek games and it's all about Broonie winding up Rangers.

 

Then we have St Johnstone who in transition had a back 5 and a holding midfielder trying to sit in for 90mins.

 

Maybe it's the size of teams in the league that the bottom 6 clubs don't want to play technical passing football and rely on cloggers and "game management". Then our weegie refs and media only want to talk about the OF rivalry and praise cloggers instead of criticising and wanting change. 

 

If we try and bring through technical players like we did with Cochrane, Mcdonald, C.Smith, Hickey - I worry that the midfielders will struggle as it doesn't suit our league and therefore they'll drop down the ranks through lack of game time or go abroad.