Colston 4 not guilty

[John Findlay]

3 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

Yes, I suggest you pull down a statue immediately. Anyone who takes issue with you is racist.

There are still slaves though but I'd suggest none in Bristol.

Where is the nearest statue of the Duke of Cumberland?

[cannonfoda]

5 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

Yes, I suggest you pull down a statue immediately. Anyone who takes issue with you is racist.

There are still slaves though but I'd suggest none in Bristol. ---- almost guarantee there are slaves in Bristol (human trafficking etc) and every other area of the UK

 

[i8hibsh]

Russia and China would literally have no statues if they started tearing them down due to shady history.

[Don Dan]

7 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

Where is the nearest statue of the Duke of Cumberland?

Golspie, The Duke of Sutherland is on the hit list.

 

Attempts to topple Duke of Sutherland statue http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-15924649

Edited January 6, 2022 by Boy Daniel
Amendment

[Nookie Bear]

2 hours ago, redjambo said:

 

It is almost a universal practice in society to build statues to those whom you want to celebrate and appreciate. You build them to warriors, scientists, great politicians, sportsmen, folk who you feel benefited society. As far as I am aware, we don't have statues in this country to Napoleon, Jack the Ripper, Jimmy Saville, etc. So, if a statue exists, we automatically assume that it is there as a celebration of that person and their contribution to society.

 

If folk are still saying that it is alright to have a statue of Colston in Bristol, and that it was wrong to remove it, then they don't have a full appreciation of the slave trade and what it meant to those captured in their homelands and taken in chains in abominable conditions across the world to be sold into slavery. There are a very large number of descendants of those slaves, the ones who survived long enough to have children who were very probably born themselves into slavery, now living in this country. It is the very least we can do as a society to make moves to remove statues that implicitly celebrate people who committed these atrocious crimes against their ancestors.

 

To those who still don't get it, I respectfully suggest that you do some reading into the slave trade and try to put yourself in the shoes of the slaves themselves and imagine how you would feel if you were one of them or one of their descendants. You know, try to exercise some empathy. Then take a new look at how we can change society to recognise the errors of the past, show our contrition, work hard to ensure we don't make the same mistakes, and allow the descendants of those who suffered from the slave trade to live their lives in society without giving them the impression that we still celebrate or condone (I'll use those words again because that's what the Colston statue represented) the slave masters who caused so much suffering and death.

 

I don't think anyone is condoning slavery or failing to appreciater Colston's role in it.

 

What people are questioning is whether a small group of people can so blatantly cause criminal damage and escape any kind of punishment. Whether your beliefs are soundor not, the law still has to apply.

 

A jury cannot make a decision based on how it will fit into the narrative, it needs to make the decision based on simple facts.

[Ron Burgundy]

I find organised religion controlling and oppressive. I take it I now have free reign to walk into any mosque, church or synagogue and deface anything I fancy.

Not all bad then.

[Nookie Bear]

1 hour ago, NANOJAMBO said:

The majority white population then win the day ?

How is that listening to victims of slavery ? 

 

Why would you assume white people would automatically vote to keep the statue?

[Nookie Bear]

1 minute ago, Ron Burgundy said:

I find organised religion controlling and oppressive. I take it I now have free reign to walk into any mosque, church or synagogue and deface anything I fancy.

Not all bad then.

 

I'm going after the Jock Stein statue in front of celtic park.

[i8hibsh]

Just now, Ron Burgundy said:

I find organised religion controlling and oppressive. I take it I now have free reign to walk into any mosque, church or synagogue and deface anything I fancy.

Not all bad then.

 

 

There was a young kid in the states that set fire to a police car during the George Floyd riots and was perplexed when faced with criminal charges.

 

What ****ing planet do these ***** live on?

 

No one is that important to start going around trying to reshape and mould our past.

 

Fortunately our pussy justice system for once threw the book at one of the Bristol ****ers

 

https://www.itv.com/news/westcountry/2021-12-17/rioter-who-tried-to-set-police-van-on-fire-in-bristol-jailed-for-14-years

[Tazio]

2 hours ago, hughesie27 said:

You can both want the statues to be removed, and find those who vandalised it,chucked it in the water guilty. There are ways of doing things.

I agree with this viewpoint. 

[Tazio]

16 minutes ago, i8hibsh said:

Russia and China would literally have no statues if they started tearing them down due to shady history.

And pretty much every country in the old Eastern Bloc tore down statues as soon as they achieved freedom from Soviet influence. 

[Des Lynam]

27 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

I believe the majority of white people, if given the information, would have voted to remove statue. 

Your virtue seeking accusation that all white people are racist is astonishing and just plain wrong. You've made me agree with an I8 post and that shouldn't happen.

Pretty difficult to listen to victims of slavery when they're all dead. Approximately 200 years since Britain's involvement in slave trade, so that's a few generations passed. 

I'm not to blame for slavers actions, and I disagree with slavery as a concept. 

Why do you think I would have voted to keep statue?

Would we not be better to stop the continual use of slaves in countries such as Nigeria, Eritrea, and The Congo amongst others instead of focusing on the past.

I mean, African countries still enslaving people from other African countries doesn't seem to bother many of the hand wringers in here. 

Easy way to look pc is by looking backwards. Let's look forwards and stop it happening now but that requires work and dedication. Much easier to get pissed, jump on BLM's matter and pull down a statue. 

Attention seeking scrotes commit vandalism and then look for excuse as to why they did it. Pathetic.

 

Hopefully the poster rescinds that comment as it’s staggeringly ignorant. 

[i8hibsh]

20 minutes ago, Tazio said:

And pretty much every country in the old Eastern Bloc tore down statues as soon as they achieved freedom from Soviet influence. 

 

 

I'd actually even say every country on the planet.  Now that I think about it.

 

I just randomly wanted to test this out so just googled 'Lagos' (first city to come into my mind as I was recently discussing McCartney's Band on the Run LP).  Looks like their statue collection consists of 'freedom fighters' etc.

 

I understand the statues reason for their being due to many countries struggling for independence at some time or another  but you could argue and make a negative case for most.  

 

Most historical leaders etc have blood on their hands.

 

Try it out, enter in a random city, google their main staues then google these people - this is not a UK thing.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 6, 2022 by i8hibsh

[The Real Maroonblood]

45 minutes ago, Nookie Bear said:

 

I don't think anyone is condoning slavery or failing to appreciater Colston's role in it.

 

What people are questioning is whether a small group of people can so blatantly cause criminal damage and escape any kind of punishment. Whether your beliefs are soundor not, the law still has to apply.

 

A jury cannot make a decision based on how it will fit into the narrative, it needs to make the decision based on simple facts.

Fair comment. 

[Unknown user]

1 hour ago, Spellczech said:

Ok then, your proposition that we consider whether he would get a statue today is plain stupid. How's that?

 

That's sound aye, confirms my suspicions perfectly

[i8hibsh]

Statues, regardless of morality and beauty are also very much cultural tourist attractions.  Tourists flock to any form of statue.

 

Tourism = good.

[Mac_fae_Gillie]

16 hours ago, milky_26 said:

by your reasoning both chanel and hugo boss be ransacked and shut down

Not to mention VW.

[Unknown user]

It's a big conversation, when does mob rule end and the will of the people begin? Once the mob's supported by a certain percentage?

 

I'd argue that tearing down symbols of oppression are very much part and parcel of history and tend to have a blind eye turned. Obviously it's a very extreme example, but tearing the Berlin wall down was technically a criminal act but no one would argue those guys should be convicted.

 

How much support does a cause need for it to be what society wants and therefore bigger than the law?

[Ron Burgundy]

57 minutes ago, Nookie Bear said:

 

I'm going after the Jock Stein statue in front of celtic park.

A legitimate target.

[Unknown user]

31 minutes ago, i8hibsh said:

 

 

I'd actually even say every country on the planet.  Now that I think about it.

 

I just randomly wanted to test this out so just googled 'Lagos' (first city to come into my mind as I was recently discussing McCartney's Band on the Run LP).  Looks like their statue collection consists of 'freedom fighters' etc.

 

I understand the statues reason for their being due to many countries struggling for independence at some time or another  but you could argue and make a negative case for most.  

 

Most historical leaders etc have blood on their hands.

 

Try it out, enter in a random city, google their main staues then google these people - this is not a UK thing.

 

 

In Holland statues tend towards abstracts, as a figure who represents an industry, etc. It's pretty rare for named individuals to be put on a pedestal (hoho) in this way. But that's very dutch, they don't like people thinking they're better than anyone else, they don't get our class system at all.

 

In fact while I lived in Hoorn there was a very similar debate. As I'm sure we all know the Dutch East Indian company, the VOC, was based out of Hoorn, involved in slaves and brought great wealth back to the town.

There was a statue of the main dude, I forget his name, in the town.

A group of kids, on learning of the history, started a debate in the town, the local council took it down until it's fate was decided, and the locals decided they wanted rid.

 

They dealt with it right IMO, from all angles. Mind you, in Hoorn they've got a lonely bench, where if you feel lonely you can have a seat and a local will come over for a chat. They calmly deal with emotional subjects over there, while we tend to react emotionally.

 

[i8hibsh]

Why don't we knock down the Tower of London while we are at it?

 

[Unknown user]

3 minutes ago, i8hibsh said:

Why don't we knock down the Tower of London while we are at it?

 

Fine by me

[i8hibsh]

1 minute ago, Smithee said:

 

In Holland statues tend towards abstracts, as a figure who represents an industry, etc. It's pretty rare for named individuals to be put on a pedestal (hoho) in this way. But that's very dutch, they don't like people thinking they're better than anyone else, they don't get our class system at all.

 

In fact while I lived in Hoorn there was a very similar debate. As I'm sure we all know the Dutch East Indian company, the VOC, was based out of Hoorn, involved in slaves and brought great wealth back to the town.

There was a statue of the main dude, I forget his name, in the town.

A group of kids, on learning of the history, started a debate in the town, the local council took it down until it's fate was decided, and the locals decided they wanted rid.

 

They dealt with it right IMO, from all angles. Mind you, in Hoorn they've got a lonely bench, where if you feel lonely you can have a seat and a local will come over for a chat. They calmly deal with emotional subjects over there, while we tend to react emotionally.

 

 

Sounds too sensible.

 

I wish people could just move on with acceptance.  Yes, the world was a bit awful and sometimes very awfull but nothing we will ever do will change this.  The world is significantly better (ish) from our vantage point.

 

Every moment, whether bad or good shaped the present however.

 

I once had an argument/debate in a pub as I witnessed a guy randomly go up to 2 Aussie girls and "apologise for the British Empire".  Me being me (shock), with a few beers fuelling me butted in and told him that if it were not for the British Empire then those 2 girls would not exist.  He simply had no argument.

 

It has shaped everything we enjoy and benefit from today.  Every monument, statue, historical building is our inheritance form the past - learn from and move on and take pride in how far as a society we have come.

 

 

 

[i8hibsh]

5 minutes ago, Smithee said:

Fine by me

 

 

I get this and understand why but would you really like ot live in a world with no history?

 

I despise religion with every inch of my being but I look at some of the art that has been inspired by it and it is breathtaking.  

[Cade]

these bloody vandals, lock em up and throw away the key

 

[i8hibsh]

Just now, Cade said:

these bloody vandals, lock em up and throw away the key

 

 

 

Aye, a local guy who made a few quid from the slave trade is definitely in the same category as that lot.

 

 

[Unknown user]

2 minutes ago, i8hibsh said:

 

Sounds too sensible.

 

I wish people could just move on with acceptance.  Yes, the world was a bit awful and sometimes very awfull but nothing we will ever do will change this.  The world is significantly better (ish) from our vantage point.

 

Every moment, whether bad or good shaped the present however.

 

I once had an argument/debate in a pub as I witnessed a guy randomly go up to 2 Aussie girls and "apologise for the British Empire".  Me being me (shock), with a few beers fuelling me butted in and told him that if it were not for the British Empire then those 2 girls would not exist.  He simply had no argument.

 

It has shaped everything we enjoy and benefit from today.  Every monument, statue, historical building is our inheritance form the past - learn from and move on and take pride in how far as a society we have come.

 

Society has always tended to get rid of what no longer seems appropriate 

 

1 minute ago, i8hibsh said:

 

 

I get this and understand why but would you really like ot live in a world with no history?

 

I despise religion with every inch of my being but I look at some of the art that has been inspired by it and it is breathtaking.  

I just don't particularly care about London. Stuff gets torn down, stuff gets built, whatever the English want to do with their stuff is fine by me. Tbh I'm not that arsed about this statue either. I am surprised at the verdict, and at how radge people continue to go at change.

[Tazio]

4 minutes ago, i8hibsh said:

 

 

Aye, a local guy who made a few quid from the slave trade is definitely in the same category as that lot.

 

 

FFS

[Francis Albert]

4 hours ago, Boab said:

With respect, I don't think anyone is condoning anything.

Celebrating it, even less so !

It's a shameful part of British history but hauling all manner of shit down ain't going to solve anything.

I do, however, take your earlier point that, at the very least, it exposed that past to more people.

Now  that is an indictment of our education system if there ever was one.

Edited January 6, 2022 by Francis Albert

[Unknown user]

3 minutes ago, i8hibsh said:

 

 

Aye, a local guy who made a few quid from the slave trade is definitely in the same category as that lot.

 

 

19,000 human beings died in chains just on the journey away from their homes in his 12 years with the company

[i8hibsh]

1 minute ago, Tazio said:

FFS

 

 

We live in a world Tazio where people class somone who votes for Donald Trump as Adolf Hitler.  

[Tazio]

2 minutes ago, i8hibsh said:

 

 

We live in a world Tazio where people class somone who votes for Donald Trump as Adolf Hitler.  

You really do talk some utter nonsense sometimes. It’s almost as if you’re constantly searching for bites. 

[i8hibsh]

Just now, Smithee said:

19,000 human beings died in chains just on the journey away from their homes in his 12 years with the company

 

 

We celebrate Henry the ****ing VIIIth on these shores ffs.

 

William Wallace is idolised in this country - many died at his hands.

 

 

[i8hibsh]

Just now, Tazio said:

You really do talk some utter nonsense sometimes. It’s almost as if you’re constantly searching for bites. 

 

 

No, we pick and choose who we idolise when the majority of those that we do from the past are no saints.

[i8hibsh]

What annoys me also is these 4 wasters probably never even heard of the guy a few months previous.

[Unknown user]

1 minute ago, i8hibsh said:

 

We celebrate Henry the ****ing VIIIth on these shores ffs.

 

William Wallace is idolised in this country - many died at his hands.

Aye there's a bunch of shit going on, that doesn't mean this slave trader should have a statue.

[NANOJAMBO]

1 hour ago, Nookie Bear said:

 

I don't think anyone is condoning slavery or failing to appreciater Colston's role in it.

 

What people are questioning is whether a small group of people can so blatantly cause criminal damage and escape any kind of punishment. Whether your beliefs are soundor not, the law still has to apply.

 

A jury cannot make a decision based on how it will fit into the narrative, it needs to make the decision based on simple facts.

The law was applied and tested but found wanting - in this instance. 

 

You need to read this -

 

 

Edited January 6, 2022 by NANOJAMBO

[Boab]

13 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Now  that is an indictment of our education system if there ever was one.

Indeed, FA.
There's a seam of “ applepine “ individuals milling about these shores !

[NANOJAMBO]

1 hour ago, Nookie Bear said:

 

Why would you assume white people would automatically vote to keep the statue?

I've already answered that .

[NANOJAMBO]

2 hours ago, John Findlay said:

In which way is a black person living in the 21st century a victim of slavery?

Can I claim to be a victim of the Highland clearances? I was born in 1963.

Claim what you like, it's a free world.

I suggest you go and read the statement from the black lady mayor of Bristol who spoke for the defence. 

 

[i8hibsh]

5 minutes ago, NANOJAMBO said:

Claim what you like, it's a free world.

I suggest you go and read the statement from the black lady mayor of Bristol who spoke for the defence. 

 

 

 

The fact she is a mayor speaks volumes.

[John Findlay]

5 minutes ago, NANOJAMBO said:

Claim what you like, it's a free world.

I suggest you go and read the statement from the black lady mayor of Bristol who spoke for the defence. 

 

Yes I'm a victim, yippeee

[John Findlay]

6 minutes ago, NANOJAMBO said:

Claim what you like, it's a free world.

I suggest you go and read the statement from the black lady mayor of Bristol who spoke for the defence. 

 

Being a victim of slavery has obviously held her back.

[NANOJAMBO]

1 minute ago, John Findlay said:

Yes I'm a victim, yippeee

Sending hugs. 

[NANOJAMBO]

1 minute ago, John Findlay said:

Being a victim of slavery has obviously held her back.

Grow up. 

[Back of the Bus]

Statues are there to give prominence to / celebrate and revere the individual depicted. 
 

if you were provably directly responsible for the deaths of THOUSANDS of enslaved people I’d say that pretty much negates your right to be celebrated / revered / given a plinth in a public space… even if you built a school or two. 
 

It’s not hard to grasp. Unless you like that kind of thing. 

Edited January 6, 2022 by Back of the Bus

[Francis Albert]

6 minutes ago, NANOJAMBO said:

Claim what you like, it's a free world.

I suggest you go and read the statement from the black lady mayor of Bristol who spoke for the defence. 

 

And she spoke for the black population of Bristol, England and the UK?

But for the slave trade, assuming her ancestors were slaves, where would she be today? Slavery was one of the greatest evils the world has known (the world because it has been prevalent in the past in much of the world). How many black people in the USA would prefer to be living in their ancestral homeland? 

Oh and billions would contest your view that it is a free world. And would wish that the rule of law applied and was properly applied. Which in this case it clearly was not. In the grand scheme of things that doesn't matter much ... There have always been rogue juries. But if juries were commonly to convict on the basis of their personal view of the rights and wrongs of what the accused did then the rule of law would be bust.

Magna Carta was of course just about the rights of rich nobles vs the king. But in centuries developed into something of which England and the UK can justifiably be proud.

[Francis Albert]

2 hours ago, John Findlay said:

In which way is a black person living in the 21st century a victim of slavery?

Can I claim to be a victim of the Highland clearances? I was born in 1963.

I gather the mayor of Bristol also has Scottish ancestry so she can maybe claim to be a victim of the Clearances too.

[JudyJudyJudy]

4 hours ago, redjambo said:

 

It is almost a universal practice in society to build statues to those whom you want to celebrate and appreciate. You build them to warriors, scientists, great politicians, sportsmen, folk who you feel benefited society. As far as I am aware, we don't have statues in this country to Napoleon, Jack the Ripper, Jimmy Saville, etc. So, if a statue exists, we automatically assume that it is there as a celebration of that person and their contribution to society.

 

If folk are still saying that it is alright to have a statue of Colston in Bristol, and that it was wrong to remove it, then they don't have a full appreciation of the slave trade and what it meant to those captured in their homelands and taken in chains in abominable conditions across the world to be sold into slavery. There are a very large number of descendants of those slaves, the ones who survived long enough to have children who were very probably born themselves into slavery, now living in this country. It is the very least we can do as a society to make moves to remove statues that implicitly celebrate people who committed these atrocious crimes against their ancestors.

 

To those who still don't get it, I respectfully suggest that you do some reading into the slave trade and try to put yourself in the shoes of the slaves themselves and imagine how you would feel if you were one of them or one of their descendants. You know, try to exercise some empathy. Then take a new look at how we can change society to recognise the errors of the past, show our contrition, work hard to ensure we don't make the same mistakes, and allow the descendants of those who suffered from the slave trade to live their lives in society without giving them the impression that we still celebrate or condone (I'll use those words again because that's what the Colston statue represented) the slave masters who caused so much suffering and death.

Excellent posting my sentiments exactly 

[John Findlay]

4 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

I gather the mayor of Bristol also has Scottish ancestry so she can maybe claim to be a victim of the Clearances too.

Maybe she can. We can claim victimhood together.