Colston 4 not guilty

[JudyJudyJudy]

Sensible verdict . Need to remove more of those symbols of colonialism and slavery . What an embarrassing history Britain 🇬🇧 has , Scotland 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 very much in there too 

 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-59727161.amp

[Mikey1874]

But under the new law going through Parliament dealing with law and order, it would be 10 years for this. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

Just now, Mikey1874 said:

But under the new law going through Parliament dealing with law and order, it would be 10 years for this. 

Yes well hopefully that’s doesn’t  get through or is heavily amended . 

[John Findlay]

11 minutes ago, JamesM48 said:

Sensible verdict . Need to remove more of those symbols of colonialism and slavery . What an embarrassing history Britain 🇬🇧 has , Scotland 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 very much in there too 

 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-59727161.amp

Whether a country's history is embarrassing or not. Its still its history.

Just because modern day people don't like some of it, does not give them the right to expunge it.

[Hmfc1965]

12 minutes ago, JamesM48 said:

Sensible verdict . Need to remove more of those symbols of colonialism and slavery . What an embarrassing history Britain 🇬🇧 has , Scotland 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 very much in there too 

 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-59727161.amp

It really isn't. 

Whatever you think of the statue do we now have value judgements on what constitutes criminal damage?

[JudyJudyJudy]

6 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

Whether a country's history is embarrassing or not. Its still its history.

Just because modern day people don't like some of it, does not give them the right to expunge it.

It’s not expunging it it’s getting  rid of symbols which honour it . 

[John Findlay]

13 minutes ago, JamesM48 said:

It’s not expunging it it’s getting  rid of symbols which honour it . 

Which in my eyes is a form of expunging it. Bristol as a city thrived on its slave trade, that is fact. Colston and many others became rich through it as did the city itself. People who find it abhorrent, can ignore the statue, it really is as simple as that.

[Dagger Is Back]

40 minutes ago, JamesM48 said:

Sensible verdict . Need to remove more of those symbols of colonialism and slavery . What an embarrassing history Britain 🇬🇧 has , Scotland 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 very much in there too 

 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-59727161.amp

 

Totally disagree. Our history, like most countries in the world is full of embarrassing episodes.

 

Removing these symbols is not the way forward in my mind. Using them to educate is a far better approach in my humble opinion.

 

 

27 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

Whether a country's history is embarrassing or not. Its still its history.

Just because modern day people don't like some of it, does not give them the right to expunge it.

 

4 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

Which in my eyes is a form of expunging it. Bristol as a city thrived on its slave trade, that is fact. Colston and many others became rich through it as did the city itself. People who find it abhorrent, can ignore the statue, it really is as simple as that.

I’m in agreement with you John. You disagree with something or dislike something and you now have the right to destroy it?

 

 

 

 

[milky_26]

3 minutes ago, Dagger Is Back said:

I’m in agreement with you John. You disagree with something or dislike something and you now have the right to destroy it?

time to head to easter road

 

Edited January 5, 2022 by milky_26

[davemclaren]

I think a better way is to keep these monuments but stick a plaque on explaining it through the modern prism. These would, of course, need updated over time as our concepts around what is acceptable and unacceptable change. Similar to history books.

[John Findlay]

6 minutes ago, Dagger Is Back said:

 

Totally disagree. Our history, like most countries in the world is full of embarrassing episodes.

 

Removing these symbols is not the way forward in my mind. Using them to educate is a far better approach in my humble opinion.

 

 

 

I’m in agreement with you John. You disagree with something or dislike something and you now have the right to destroy it?

 

 

 

 

Education is the way. The council of Bristol could have/held a referendum asking its citizens if they wanted the statue removed or not. If the citizens of Bristol voted to keep it then it stays, if they voted to remove, then it's removed.

To me that would be how grown ups behave.

[Gizmo]

5 minutes ago, Dagger Is Back said:

 

Totally disagree. Our history, like most countries in the world is full of embarrassing episodes.

 

Removing these symbols is not the way forward in my mind. Using them to educate is a far better approach in my humble opinion.

 

 

 

I’m in agreement with you John. You disagree with something or dislike something and you now have the right to destroy it?

 

In what reality is there any moral ambiguity over the fact it is not right to celebrate the legacy of a slaver who contributed heavily to the enslavement of 84,000 people, whom over 20% died making the forced journey from their country of birth. 

Would you campaign for the restoration of Nazi symbols in Germany?

Get that ***** back in the sea.  

[JudyJudyJudy]

29 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

Which in my eyes is a form of expunging it. Bristol as a city thrived on its slave trade, that is fact. Colston and many others became rich through it as did the city itself. People who find it abhorrent, can ignore the statue, it really is as simple as that.

How can you ignore a statue if it’s right in front of you in a prominent place , which most of those usually are ? 

15 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

I think a better way is to keep these monuments but stick a plaque on explaining it through the modern prism. These would, of course, need updated over time as our concepts around what is acceptable and unacceptable change. Similar to history books.

What’s wrong with just taking it down then ? Slavery was at that time challenged by more forward thinkers then . It wasn’t wholly accepted . 

11 minutes ago, Gizmo said:

In what reality is there any moral ambiguity over the fact it is not right to celebrate the legacy of a slaver who contributed heavily to the enslavement of 84,000 people, whom over 20% died making the forced journey from their country of birth. 

Would you campaign for the restoration of Nazi symbols in Germany?

Get that ***** back in the sea.  

👍👍

[milky_26]

19 minutes ago, Gizmo said:

In what reality is there any moral ambiguity over the fact it is not right to celebrate the legacy of a slaver who contributed heavily to the enslavement of 84,000 people, whom over 20% died making the forced journey from their country of birth. 

Would you campaign for the restoration of Nazi symbols in Germany?

Get that ***** back in the sea.  

by your reasoning both chanel and hugo boss be ransacked and shut down

[davemclaren]

12 minutes ago, JamesM48 said:

How can you ignore a statue if it’s right in front of you in a prominent place , which most of those usually are ? 

What’s wrong with just taking it down then ? Slavery was at that time challenged by more forward thinkers then . It wasn’t wholly accepted . 

👍👍

How far do you take it though? The Romans and Greeks were not averse to slavery and other horrific acts. Do we tear down the remaining monuments in Rome, Athens and elsewhere?

 

I would bet that most of the statues on george street and in princes street gardens were people who were party to some pretty appalling stuff when judged from today. 
 

I haven’t even mentioned that old racist and aggressive imperialist Winston Churchill. 

 

 

[Unknown user]

1 hour ago, John Findlay said:

Which in my eyes is a form of expunging it. Bristol as a city thrived on its slave trade, that is fact. Colston and many others became rich through it as did the city itself. People who find it abhorrent, can ignore the statue, it really is as simple as that.

 

[Dagger Is Back]

9 hours ago, Gizmo said:

In what reality is there any moral ambiguity over the fact it is not right to celebrate the legacy of a slaver who contributed heavily to the enslavement of 84,000 people, whom over 20% died making the forced journey from their country of birth. 

Would you campaign for the restoration of Nazi symbols in Germany?

Get that ***** back in the sea.  

I don’t see the statues and street names as celebrating any legacy of an individual or company.

 

I’ve never seen it that way and I doubt many people do in these modern times.

 

What happened was disgusting and hard in many ways to believe it wasn’t that long ago. 
 

Mankind can be accused of many things but the progress we’ve made in terms of equality has to be celebrated.

 

In terms of Nazi Germany, of course not. But this isn’t about restoration so I’m not sure what you’re getting at.

 

As far as I’ve read and understood, Germany haven’t tried to brush their history under the nearest carpet. They’ve acknowledged as a nation their part in a modern day real life horror and used that positively to educate.

 

It’s simply my view that it would be more beneficial for us to do likewise.

[Gizmo]

5 minutes ago, Dagger Is Back said:

I don’t see the statues and street names as celebrating any legacy of an individual or company.

 

I’ve never seen it that way and I doubt many people do in these modern times.

 

What happened was disgusting and hard in many ways to believe it wasn’t that long ago. 
 

Mankind can be accused of many things but the progress we’ve made in terms of equality has to be celebrated.

 

In terms of Nazi Germany, of course not. But this isn’t about restoration so I’m not sure what you’re getting at.

 

As far as I’ve read and understood, Germany haven’t tried to brush their history under the nearest carpet. They’ve acknowledged as a nation their part in a modern day real life horror and used that positively to educate.

 

It’s simply my view that it would be more beneficial for us to do likewise.

I'm in complete agreement.

Remove the statues and tributes to these immoral figures and then use it positively to educate people. 👍

[132goals1958]

10 hours ago, Hmfc1965 said:

It really isn't. 

Whatever you think of the statue do we now have value judgements on what constitutes criminal damage?

 

Agreed. Whilst accepting there  is a morally offensive aspect to some of those statues those destroying the one in Bristol resembled a pack of wolves devouring their prey. Verging on mob rule.

[luckydug]

Hope nobody decides to take out that giant monument in St Andrews Square. 

It'll take the city centre with it😏

Seriously how far do we go with this ruling, don't like something just take it down🤔

[Mikey1874]

The Government responds

 

 

[Dagger Is Back]

18 minutes ago, Gizmo said:

I'm in complete agreement.

Remove the statues and tributes to these immoral figures and then use it positively to educate people. 👍

We’ll need to agree to agree to disagree on their removal I guess.

 

Personally I think leaving them there gives us a better opportunity to educate on an ongoing basis, than removing them and getting a ‘one off hit’.

 

 

[Hmfc1965]

1 hour ago, luckydug said:

Hope nobody decides to take out that giant monument in St Andrews Square. 

It'll take the city centre with it😏

Seriously how far do we go with this ruling, don't like something just take it down🤔

I suspect this will be appealed and the verdict overturned.

There will then be a mass debate on how out of touch judges are.

[Jamstomorrow]

I have to say I am baffled how these people can be involved in the pulling down of a statue and throwing it into a harbour and be found not guilty.  I suppose it may depend on what they were charged with.  Without knowing English law, there would appear at least to be damage to property and litter/environmental issues by chucking the statue into the harbour.  Possibly maritime laws, eg. danger to shipping.  Baffling!

[H2]

It is incredible how they got off. So if the Scotland supporters don't like the Bobby Moore Statue it's ok for then to pull it down and dump it. If the English don't like a William Wallace statue, they can do what they like with it. - It is nonsense.

What they did was an act of vandalism, pure and simple, mob rule vandalism.

Civilization is in danger if it's ok to vandalise things because you don't like them or what they stand for.

[Don Dan]

Man the bulldozers grab the dynamite let’s demolish these buildings. We will be found not guilty. Obviously I’m at it but where do we end if this judgment is allowed to stand. 
 

https://edition.cnn.com/travel/article/national-trust-colonialism-slavery/index.html

 

The current Mayor of Bristol Martin Rees has in been post for over 4 years and never did anything about it. This dispute has been rumbling on for decades with no out come. 

https://www.bristol.gov.uk/mayor/biography-of-the-mayor

Edited January 6, 2022 by Boy Daniel

[jackal]

So if I dont like something that I find offensive I can tear it down and dump it in the docks.

 

Its strange that the majority of people who found it offensive are probably students who chose to study in Bristol, a city built on the money from people who had slaves.

 

Not sure if any of you have seen this but where does it end.

 

https://consultationhub.edinburgh.gov.uk/sfc/edinburgh-slavery-and-colonialism-legacy-review-on/consultation/?fbclid=IwAR0Y50SaYFASrScg-MYe1XVVo9H2eWMEaJmL1yK37zWaekr1tjpJGdE56WQ

[Seymour M Hersh]

13 hours ago, John Findlay said:

Whether a country's history is embarrassing or not. Its still its history.

Just because modern day people don't like some of it, does not give them the right to expunge it.

 

In a nutshell John, in a nutshell. 

[Seymour M Hersh]

1 hour ago, Hmfc1965 said:

I suspect this will be appealed and the verdict overturned.

There will then be a mass debate on how out of touch judges are.

 

It was a Jury that decided not a Judge. 

[redjambo]

Well done to the Colston 4 and the jury who found them not guilty.

 

Thumbs down to those who would continue to condone the slave trade and the UK's part in it. Maybe you should work a little harder at trying to recover a little bit of your humanity.

 

If we don't recognise and atone for the mistakes of the past, we will never sufficiently learn from them.

[Unknown user]

6 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

In a nutshell John, in a nutshell. 

 

What's been expunged Seymour?

[Seymour M Hersh]

This sort of destruction is exactly the same as the Taliban and ISIS were rightly vilified for doing. The Bamiyan Buddhas in Afghanistan (Taliban) and from Palmyra in Syria to Imam Dur Mausoleum in Iraq (ISIS). Just because it wasn't Islamic or even worse not their sect of Islam.

[jackal]

2 minutes ago, redjambo said:

Well done to the Colston 4 and the jury who found them not guilty.

 

Thumbs down to those who would continue to condone the slave trade and the UK's part in it. Maybe you should work a little harder at trying to recover a little bit of your humanity.

 

If we don't recognise and atone for the mistakes of the past, we will never sufficiently learn from them.

Almost every nation in the world has used slaves through time, should we just eradicate all history and start afresh?

The problem is we still have slavery ongoing now even in this country, why not concentrate on that rather than things we cant change.

[Unknown user]

3 minutes ago, jackal said:

Almost every nation in the world has used slaves through time, should we just eradicate all history and start afresh?

The problem is we still have slavery ongoing now even in this country, why not concentrate on that rather than things we cant change.

What part of history has been eradicated?

[Hmfc1965]

11 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

It was a Jury that decided not a Judge. 

That's my point. 

An appeal court consisting of judges will overturn the jury's decision. 

They'll then be called out of touch. 

[Boab]

There's probably posters on here who would like Bute House taken down with Nicky inside !

Plenty buildings and statues in Edinburgh built off the back of profits made during the slave trade.

 

Education is the answer, not pulling stuff down because of past events.

 

[Seymour M Hersh]

Just now, Hmfc1965 said:

That's my point. 

An appeal court consisting of judges will overturn the jury's decision. 

They'll then be called out of touch. 

 

Apologies, misread the second sentence. 👍

[Don Dan]

Just now, Boab said:

There's probably posters on here who would like Bute House taken down with Nicky inside !

Don’t give people ideas. 

[jackal]

2 minutes ago, Smithee said:

What part of history has been eradicated?

None yet, but thats the point. If all things connected to the slave trade are changed or destroyed how do we change.

Most people now would never treat anyone the way a slave was treated in those days and regard them as property.

[redjambo]

1 minute ago, Smithee said:

 

What's been expunged Seymour?

 

Contrary to being expunged, the fact that the statue was toppled actually brought the subject into the public eye, not sufficiently, imo, but enough at least to make more people aware of the topic than had been before.

 

On the subject of expunging history, do remember that when there were plans to add a plaque to the statue outlining Colston's involvement in the slave trade, a Conservative Bristol councillor stated that he would not condemn anyone who vandalised the new plaque.

 

There is a huge difference between expunging history and merely deciding that having a statue in your city dedicated to a slave trader is extremely disrespectful, not only to the tens of thousands who died or were torn from their communities and traded across the Atlantic, but also to the descendants of the slaves who are  inhabitants of your city and who see that statue every day and are reminded of the atrocities committed against their ancestors. The existence of that statue was like a huge two fingers to those residents. At some point you have to decide that the sins of the past can be remembered without said remembrance causing further discomfort to the people of the present.

[jackal]

3 minutes ago, Boab said:

There's probably posters on here who would like Bute House taken down with Nicky inside !

Plenty buildings and statues in Edinburgh built off the back of profits made during the slave trade.

 

Education is the answer, not pulling stuff down because of past events.

 

https://consultationhub.edinburgh.gov.uk/sfc/edinburgh-slavery-and-colonialism-legacy-review-on/consultation/?fbclid=IwAR0Y50SaYFASrScg-MYe1XVVo9H2eWMEaJmL1yK37zWaekr1tjpJGdE56WQ

 

 

[Cade]

Judged by a jury of their peers.

Acquitted.

Deal with it.

 

 

[Unknown user]

3 minutes ago, jackal said:

None yet, but thats the point. If all things connected to the slave trade are changed or destroyed how do we change.

Most people now would never treat anyone the way a slave was treated in those days and regard them as property.

 

I have no idea what point you're making.

[redjambo]

10 minutes ago, jackal said:

Almost every nation in the world has used slaves through time, should we just eradicate all history and start afresh?

The problem is we still have slavery ongoing now even in this country, why not concentrate on that rather than things we cant change.

 

There is a difference between eradicating history and deciding not to celebrate it or to openly condone it, which is what the statue represented. That is something we *can* change.

 

The very fact that we have not been able to sufficiently acknowledge and regret our past as slave traders, amply illustrated by some of the comments on here, is one of the reasons that modern slavery still exists. As long as it's "not us" being traded, we don't really care enough to do anything about it. The past and the present go hand in hand.

[Unknown user]

5 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

Contrary to being expunged, the fact that the statue was toppled actually brought the subject into the public eye, not sufficiently, imo, but enough at least to make more people aware of the topic than had been before.

 

On the subject of expunging history, do remember that when there were plans to add a plaque to the statue outlining Colston's involvement in the slave trade, a Conservative Bristol councillor stated that he would not condemn anyone who vandalised the new plaque.

 

There is a huge difference between expunging history and merely deciding that having a statue in your city dedicated to a slave trader is extremely disrespectful, not only to the tens of thousands who died or were torn from their communities and traded across the Atlantic, but also to the descendants of the slaves who are  inhabitants of your city and who see that statue every day and are reminded of the atrocities committed against their ancestors. The existence of that statue was like a huge two fingers to those residents. At some point you have to decide that the sins of the past can be remembered without said remembrance causing further discomfort to the people of the present.

 

Correct

[Boab]

1 minute ago, redjambo said:

 

There is a difference between eradicating history and deciding not to celebrate it or to openly condone it, which is what the statue represented. That is something we *can* change.

 

The very fact that we have not been able to sufficiently acknowledge and regret our past as slave traders, amply illustrated by some of the comments on here, is one of the reasons that modern slavery still exists. As long as it's "not us" being traded, we don't really care enough to do anything about it. The past and the present go hand in hand.

With respect, I don't think anyone is condoning anything.

Celebrating it, even less so !

It's a shameful part of British history but hauling all manner of shit down ain't going to solve anything.

I do, however, take your earlier point that, at the very least, it exposed that past to more people.

[Spellczech]

14 hours ago, JamesM48 said:

Sensible verdict . Need to remove more of those symbols of colonialism and slavery . What an embarrassing history Britain 🇬🇧 has , Scotland 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 very much in there too 

 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-59727161.amp

Are there not better ways of doing it than via a riot?

 

People seem to have a very black & white view of history - in several senses. First that they don't understand that racial superiority was actually a firm belief hundreds of years ago, and only education can change these views, not violence. Secondly, that people including slaves traders can be both good and bad. Colston made his money in the get-rich-quick method of the day, the 17th century's Bitcoin if you like...but that he chose to spend it on schools etc is not a bad thing. What difference does it make that a statue was put up for him for his good actions. Should've stuck up a sign to highlight he bad actions. 

[Nucky Thompson]

13 hours ago, Gizmo said:

Would you campaign for the restoration of Nazi symbols in Germany?

 

I've visited both Auschwitz and Dachau concentration camps, Do you think that they should be shut down?

 

They are still there to show the World what the Nazis done. We can't just erase it from history

[Unknown user]

3 minutes ago, Boab said:

With respect, I don't think anyone is condoning anything.

Celebrating it, even less so !

It's a shameful part of British history but hauling all manner of shit down ain't going to solve anything.

I do, however, take your earlier point that, at the very least, it exposed that past to more people.

 

Similarly, hauling controversial shit down isn't going to harm anything.

 

I think a good way to look at this is from the angle that if there were currently no statue to this dude, how many would want one?

If it was proposed, would people not say it was inappropriate in this day and age?

[NANOJAMBO]

18 minutes ago, Hmfc1965 said:

That's my point. 

An appeal court consisting of judges will overturn the jury's decision. 

They'll then be called out of touch. 

If the CPS has any sense they'll kick that idea straight into touch.

As well as David Olusoga speaking on their behalf, there was also the black lady mayoress of Bristol. 

There have also been four attempts to agree the wording of a second plaque and patience finally ran out for Bristolians when it was made public that that the council had allowed an organisation  with close links to the Colston money to influence its content. 

There's no public interest here other than the usual right wing groups like the Spectator bumping their gums.  Time to move on.