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Selkirkhmfc1874

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fabienleclerq

We all know only a tiny percentage make it. I think with the academy it takes a long term approach to develop our own players and from the sounds of it the ones at 14/15/16 are doing well. They've missed a lot due to covid aswell. 

 

Not having a reserve league is a massive disadvantage to them too. 

 

We have a few out getting games just now and Henderson deserves another shot, I'm of the opinion he hasn't shown enough to merit the game time he's had but he seems to have kicked on. 

 

Does anyone know if we do any futsal at the academy? The best kids I see at my sons age group play it. 

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8 minutes ago, Rudy T said:

However, we should have an academy but for me there needs to be targets set, IMO we hold on to players far too long when it’s clear they’re not going to make it. It’s not a boys club it should be a vehicle to produce professional footballers for Hearts not a supply chain to the lower leagues. As harsh as that sounds it might focus the lads more to dedicate themselves to making it. I have no doubt we have good young players in the academy but are they going to step up, that’s where all the focus should be.


if you’re expecting to roll out 11+ players for the first team each season you’re behind the curve. 

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Pasquale for King
14 minutes ago, Led Tasso said:

 

Not this season but we had Andy Irving last season. Again, not one to set the heather alight but neither has Campbell from what I've seen. Patterson reminds me of Tierney in that he's a big success but stands out as being the exception rather than the rule.

 

And as stated, I think the next six months are a great time to see if Henderson's got his form to the point he can make the big step up.

If he’s given a chance I suppose. 

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lost in space

The only way the Academy will work is if there is some commitment from the club.

Can't blame Neilson (or any manger) for taking the easy option of signing a short term fix.

Managers are under pressure to get results - or be sacked.

Unless a club is prepared to give more credit for playing an Academy player, the manager will play the player that is more likely to keep him in a job.

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Just now, Hesh said:


if you’re expecting to roll out 11+ players for the first team each season you’re behind the curve. 


Absolutely not, but I’d expect us to turn out more than we currently are. I have no idea how many lads we have in the academy and more importantly how many are expected to make the step up but surely we have to look at this and address whatever the issue is bringing them through.

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Pasquale for King
14 minutes ago, Rudy T said:

I’d like to know the ratio of youth team player to first team across all the top leagues, I suspect it’s very low. It’s not easy to make it as a professional footballer at any level. 
 

Let’s use Beni as an example, he couldn’t break through at Everton yet he’s tearing our league up, there’s not a single Hearts academy player that could get near his place in the team, and if there was he wouldn’t be in the Hearts academy for long. Look at Hickey we got 5 minutes out of him before he was off. 
 

However, we should have an academy but for me there needs to be targets set, IMO we hold on to players far too long when it’s clear they’re not going to make it. It’s not a boys club it should be a vehicle to produce professional footballers for Hearts not a supply chain to the lower leagues. As harsh as that sounds it might focus the lads more to dedicate themselves to making it. I have no doubt we have good young players in the academy but are they going to step up, that’s where all the focus should be.

Celtic have 11 academy graduates in their squad currently, we have two, if they can do it so can we. 
https://www.footballscotland.co.uk/spfl/scottish-premiership/celtic-among-top-five-europa-21939612

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1 minute ago, Pasquale for King said:

Celtic have 11 academy graduates in their squad currently, we have two, if they can do it so can we. 
https://www.footballscotland.co.uk/spfl/scottish-premiership/celtic-among-top-five-europa-21939612


The question is how? What are they doing that we’re not? Or are they poaching these kids from other academies, if so, then that needs addressed by the authorities to stop it happening if possible.

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There’s very little loyalty in football, especially from young players in a poor league. 
 

It’s all well and good saying what would you do if you could treble your wages, but the downstream impact of that is that clubs become less inclined to use their academy because what’s the point? Invest significant time and resources then watch them run down their contract and you get pennies on the pound? Great deal 😂

 

Alternatively let the academy bubble away in the background and focus on signing players in their early 20s that you can sign up long enough to make a sizeable transfer fee and they make an immediate impact on the first team, are physically developed enough to manage the demands of first team football plus have a reasonable level of experience? Kinda a no brainer tbh. 

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Pasquale for King
1 minute ago, Rudy T said:


The question is how? What are they doing that we’re not? Or are they poaching these kids from other academies, if so, then that needs addressed by the authorities to stop it happening if possible.

Definitely, there’s something not quite right but I’m sure Savage will sort it out. 

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Ideally you'd have a settled and successful first team with committed senior players blended with driven u23 players. Players who will look to progress in the club and be sold on to bring in transfer fees whilst also opening up a space in the first team for the next player. You only need a few players turnover every couple years.

 

Hopefully we see that if Gordon retires and Stone steps in, if Devlin or Beni are sold to big clubs down south and McGill or Pollock step in. There's exciting prospects there that we will hopefully see in the next year or 2.

 

Since Neilson left we had squad turnover with Cathro coming in who then left with Levein turning the squad over and young players like Cochrane and Mcdonald coming in then dropping out, followed by Stendel trying to implement his style. Then John Murray finally left.

 

Point being there's been that much turnover in 5 years we've not had the opportunity especially with the aim last season of get promoted and trim the squad back to a younger team which Neilson and Savage are doing. 

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37 minutes ago, Hmfc1965 said:

Do you think having a "must win at all costs" mentality is a weakness?

 

 

I posted what I think.

 

I don't like your posts, I don't like the way you antagonise people on here so this is our last hug together.

 

Toodle pip.

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13 hours ago, R1874 said:

Logan

Hamilton

Smith

Watson

 

All could easily get minutes now or next year. For example, do we need to replace Walker with a new journeyman signing or give Smith a chance. If Halliday leaves can Watson cover him etc. 

 

We have a great first xi and subs. Time to integrate some kids

 

A reserve league would be helpful.

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39 minutes ago, OTT said:

There’s very little loyalty in football, especially from young players in a poor league. 
 

It’s all well and good saying what would you do if you could treble your wages, but the downstream impact of that is that clubs become less inclined to use their academy because what’s the point? Invest significant time and resources then watch them run down their contract and you get pennies on the pound? Great deal 😂

 

Alternatively let the academy bubble away in the background and focus on signing players in their early 20s that you can sign up long enough to make a sizeable transfer fee and they make an immediate impact on the first team, are physically developed enough to manage the demands of first team football plus have a reasonable level of experience? Kinda a no brainer tbh. 

There's no question that clubs had far too much power for years 

There now needs to be a balance and clubs who develop players fairly compensated 

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Lone Striker

Very good discussion topic, with some good sensible posts.   As several folk have said, all club academies face the reality that a very small percentage of their intake will make it to pro level.   

 

 From memory, we've given roughly 5 lads a pro contract each of the last 2 years.    Rightly or wrongly, our strategy seems to be to loan them out to various lower level clubs and see how they respond.   That seems to whittle down the number who might get a first-team game at Hearts even more.   Then there's the mentality & injury factor after that, which reduces the number even more who go on to flourish.

 

With the big overhaul in our football department structure only happening in 2020 or 2021, I think it would be wrong to harm any aspect of the Hearts academy - at least until we see if these changes bring a better return for the first team over the next few years.     I'm hopeful that Steven Naismith's role with the U-18s  to drive them to the levels required for first team football will pay dividends.   

 

I had a look at the SFA ELite Performance website for graduates who've played for a club first-team between 2016 and 2019.  Out of 36 lads, the following 24 are currently with Premiership or Championship teams in Scotland or England -

 

Harrison Sharp     (Dundee)

Billy Gilmour          (Chelsea)

Josh McPake        (Rangers)

Dapo Mebude       (Watford)

Dean Cornelius     (Motherwell)

Finlay Robertson  (Dundee)

Chris Mochrie       (Dundee Utd)

Jordan Northcott (St. Johnstone)

Steven Bradley     (Hibs)

Scott Banks          (Crystal Palace)

Ethan Ross           (Raith Rovers)

Reegan Mimnaugh (Hamilton)

Finn Ecrepont        (Ayr Utd)

Lewis McGrattan  (Morton)

Stephen Kelly       (Rangers)

Zak Rudden          (Partick T)

Ross Graham       (Dundee Utd)

Chris Hamilton     (Hearts)

Connor Smith       (Hearts)

Anthony McDonald  (ICT)

Ethan Erhahon    (St. Mirren)

Harry Cochrane   (QoS)

Logan Chalmers (Dundee Utd)

Dean Campbell  (Aberdeen)

 

(Many of them are out on loan to other clubs currently)

 

Unsurprisingly, this  suggests that the Elite Performance academies produce a high percentage of players with the ability & mentality required to make an early debut for a pro club's first-team and then get picked up by a Prem/Champ club.   Strangely, none of these are at Celtic - any idea why @Footballfirst ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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30 minutes ago, Bull's-eye said:

 

I posted what I think.

 

I don't like your posts, I don't like the way you antagonise people on here so this is our last hug together.

 

Toodle pip.

I'm not sure who I antagonise other than those who can see no wrong but whatever. 

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StevenNaismith
3 hours ago, Pasquale for King said:

Are we allowed to? 
Have you any thoughts on why we aren’t bringing graduates through into the first team squad at the moment? 

Biggest problem is the jump from under 18 to first team football. That’s what Steven Naismith is being tasked to help bridge and he’s doing a very good job. Nothing will happen overnight tho. We have some terrific talent in the academy but until they get to the age and sign a professional contract we can lose them. Greig Allan being the latest example who went to Rangers in the summer. Terrific young player.

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Bazzas right boot
1 hour ago, Pasquale for King said:

He was handed a video saying we should sign this guy, that’s not spotting a player. Playing him when your other crap options that you signed are out and you’re forced to doesn’t really deserve much praise. 
Why mention Brentford to me? 
Aberdeen sold McKenna for £5m 18 months ago.

Hibs haven’t produced good youngsters for years, they’re still playing more than we do, which is the point. 

 

So hibs - nothing. 

 

Aberdeen in 10 years who were the 3rd best team for a lot of that sold 1 player for £3m. Possible £5m.

 

And you think this is a stick to beat Hearts with. 

 

So in reality we're not the best but not the worse and it's really difficult to produce your own talent and sell it. 

 

Not to mention to create a good team that is progressing year on year which Robbie has done in every season with his time with us. 

 

 

And CL signed Hickey. 

If he ends up bringing us more money it's something else that will probably trigger you. Rabid, give him the blame for everything but no credit. 

It's actually quite funny Tbh. 

 

 

 

 

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Footballfirst
51 minutes ago, Lone Striker said:

Unsurprisingly, this  suggests that the Elite Performance academies produce a high percentage of players with the ability & mentality required to make an early debut for a pro club's first-team and then get picked up by a Prem/Champ club.   Strangely, none of these are at Celtic - any idea why @Footballfirst ?

Celtic has its own "performance school" at St Ninians in Kirkintilloch. Their graduates include Jack Aitchison, Karamoko Dembele, Ewan Henderson, Jack Hendry, Micky Johnston, Jamie McCart, Calvin Miller, Aidan Nesbitt, Anthony Ralston, Scott Robertson, Kieran Tierney, Joe Thomson, Stephen Welsh.

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4 hours ago, Led Tasso said:

 

This keeps getting missed. The route from academy to match day squad is a staircase and the reserve team is the penultimate step on that staircase. It's currently missing which means that the front office is having to figure out creative ways to help players make the big step up without it.

 

Our system isn't broken, it's just stuck in a f---ing pandemic.


It was broken way before the f—-ing pandemic!

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Pasquale for King
1 hour ago, StevenNaismith said:

Biggest problem is the jump from under 18 to first team football. That’s what Steven Naismith is being tasked to help bridge and he’s doing a very good job. Nothing will happen overnight tho. We have some terrific talent in the academy but until they get to the age and sign a professional contract we can lose them. Greig Allan being the latest example who went to Rangers in the summer. Terrific young player.

I think most of us accept there’s no quick fix but as long as we are doing something about it then let’s hope that will help. Thanks for that 👍🏽.

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Pasquale for King
1 hour ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

So hibs - nothing. 

 

Aberdeen in 10 years who were the 3rd best team for a lot of that sold 1 player for £3m. Possible £5m.

 

And you think this is a stick to beat Hearts with. 

 

So in reality we're not the best but not the worse and it's really difficult to produce your own talent and sell it. 

 

Not to mention to create a good team that is progressing year on year which Robbie has done in every season with his time with us. 

 

 

And CL signed Hickey. 

If he ends up bringing us more money it's something else that will probably trigger you. Rabid, give him the blame for everything but no credit. 

It's actually quite funny Tbh. 

 

 

 

 

Hibs have 7 academy players in their first team squad, we have two. I know your a bit dim but even you realise that’s not nothing. 
The thread is about the academy producing players, not sales, but your boy will fail on both of those counts due to his inability to improve players.

As for it being difficult nobody said it was easy, but every other team seems to be doing it better than we are currently. 
Hopefully now Savage is trying to sort the mess he inherited we will see some progress in the next few years, it’s great to have someone who knows what he’s doing in charge now. 

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2 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

Hibs have 7 academy players in their first team squad, we have two. I know your a bit dim but even you realise that’s not nothing. 
The thread is about the academy producing players, not sales, but your boy will fail on both of those counts due to his inability to improve players.

As for it being difficult nobody said it was easy, but every other team seems to be doing it better than we are currently. 
Hopefully now Savage is trying to sort the mess he inherited we will see some progress in the next few years, it’s great to have someone who knows what he’s doing in charge now. 

 

This is true, Pasquale.

 

If Joe Savage is the driving force behind the club we are going places.

 

There will be casualties but I trust him to decide who they are.

 

Who knows, one of them might be me?

 

😃 😊 

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Pasquale for King
1 minute ago, martoon said:

 

This is true, Pasquale.

 

If Joe Savage is the driving force behind the club we are going places.

 

There will be casualties but I trust him to decide who they are.

 

Who knows, one of them might be me?

 

😃 😊 

For the greater good 😜

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Watt-Zeefuik
4 hours ago, Rudy T said:


The question is how? What are they doing that we’re not? Or are they poaching these kids from other academies, if so, then that needs addressed by the authorities to stop it happening if possible.

 

When you have a first team squad of 50+ players it's much easier to keep 11 academy graduates in it than when your first team squad is 19. Also, I don't know the numbers but I would say it's fair to assume that the OF academies are many times larger than ours in terms of youth participants.

 

Even so, if one is just counting the first team roster and not regular game day appearances, we have Finlay Pollock and Cammy Logan on the squad in addition to the handful out on loan.

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9 hours ago, OTT said:

There’s very little loyalty in football, especially from young players in a poor league. 
 

 

What a lot of fans forget is it’s a job, you might like your job but not where you do it, or get opportunity elsewhere so you move. Loyalty isnt a main factor

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8 hours ago, StevenNaismith said:

Biggest problem is the jump from under 18 to first team football. 


Its not just that it’s u18s and mans football, once a player has been on loan, even at LL level, there isn’t much benefit to them going back to u18

Edited by Hesh
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Bazzas right boot
7 hours ago, Pasquale for King said:

Hibs have 7 academy players in their first team squad, we have two. I know your a bit dim but even you realise that’s not nothing. 
The thread is about the academy producing players, not sales, but your boy will fail on both of those counts due to his inability to improve players.

As for it being difficult nobody said it was easy, but every other team seems to be doing it better than we are currently. 
Hopefully now Savage is trying to sort the mess he inherited we will see some progress in the next few years, it’s great to have someone who knows what he’s doing in charge now. 

 

And we've overtaken them in a season. 

 

I know you are a bit dim,but surely you are not advocating playing youth over getting results and that numbers are the most important thing when it comes to youth 

 

Would playing 11 youth players every week make you happy as we get hammered? Football is a results business and to your disgust Bob is delivering. 

Hibs have made a  grand total of nothing from their youth recently and are currently 5th.

Aberdeen one player like we have, the difference in value was lenght of contract, nothing to do with the quality of the player from the Academy. 

 

We've also produced lots of young players, many are playing for other teams. So we do produce, just not players fit for a 3rd place team or for challenging the league. 

We also have the best one in the country playing for us. 

 

So no, every other team isn't doing it better than us, unless you think success of youth is just chucking numbers into the first team, which for some reason you do. 

Fair enough. 

 

We can improve on youth and I'm sure it's on the agenda, but improvement and stability of the teams performance is number 1 priority and that thanks to Savage and Bob is coming along nicely. Far more important than youth numbers coming through. Far more. 

 

In your anger to make Hearts look bad at something you lose all balance and for some reason pull up trees just to make us look bad or worse at things.

Now you are championing hibs as some kind of benchmark for youth! 

Reallt strange Tbh.

 

Each to their own tho, if slagging Hearts across multiple threads makes you feel good, then crack on. It is somewhat entertaining as your Bob seethe unfolds. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Bazzas right boot
8 hours ago, Footballfirst said:

Celtic has its own "performance school" at St Ninians in Kirkintilloch. Their graduates include Jack Aitchison, Karamoko Dembele, Ewan Henderson, Jack Hendry, Micky Johnston, Jamie McCart, Calvin Miller, Aidan Nesbitt, Anthony Ralston, Scott Robertson, Kieran Tierney, Joe Thomson, Stephen Welsh.

 

As with Naismiths post the OF dominance is depressing. 

 

Aberdeen have an advantage as travel from their end of the country Likley ensures they get the pick of the talent up there, but travelling across the Central belt isn't as big a deal so the OF can still be a draw from our ( and Hibs) traditional catchment areas. 

Depressing. 

 

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portobellojambo1

I could be wrong here but I get the impression that both halves of the OF look on winning everything at youth level as a major achievement, they seem to treat those leagues/trophies as important in the same way they look to win all trophies available at senior level. As such I can only imagine that they do all that they can to attract the best youngsters to their teams, even if thr truth is that the vast majority of the youngsters they take on board will inevitably never make it to eventual success at senior level. The one thing I have no clue about is what clubs can offer to youngsters financially, to convince them to go there rather than just aim to make their way in football by going to the senior club most local to where they, as individuals, live.

 

I'd love to see a reasonably regular conveyor belt of youth to our first team but truth is we as fans, fans of all clubs, want to see their own club succeed on the park at first team level. While it would be good to see a Hearts first team benefitting from regular progression of youths up through the levels at Tynecastle I think we are probably going to have to make do with what we see at the moment. Does that mean the academy is failing to deliver, I honestly don't know. I've no idea how much of our finance is diverted towards the academy and if that amount justifies what the academy is achieving. Or should a proportion of the funding given to the academy be diverted to the likes of Joe Savage/Robbie Neilson to bring in external players, in the knowledge that with that route not every player brought in externally goes on to succeed at first team level.

Edited by portobellojambo1
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26 minutes ago, portobellojambo1 said:

I could be wrong here but I get the impression that both halves of the OF look on winning everything at youth level as a major achievement, they seem to treat those leagues/trophies as important in the same way they look to win all trophies available at senior level. As such I can only imagine that they do all that they can to attract the best youngsters to their teams, even if thr truth is that the vast majority of the youngsters they take on board will inevitably never make it to eventual success at senior level. The one thing I have no clue about is what clubs can offer to youngsters financially, to convince them to go there rather than just aim to make their way in football by going to the senior club most local to where they, as individuals, live.

 

 

 

Daft question: if those kids are winning everything at youth level then are they not the best players around and therefore better placed to break through?

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9 hours ago, Pasquale for King said:

Hibs have 7 academy players in their first team squad, we have two. I know your a bit dim but even you realise that’s not nothing. 
The thread is about the academy producing players, not sales, but your boy will fail on both of those counts due to his inability to improve players.

As for it being difficult nobody said it was easy, but every other team seems to be doing it better than we are currently. 
Hopefully now Savage is trying to sort the mess he inherited we will see some progress in the next few years, it’s great to have someone who knows what he’s doing in charge now. 

Further to this Hivs 18s have players we would cream ourselves about, "Bob" would have them on bench, he won't play youth never will for me, agree with dim bit 100%.

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43 minutes ago, portobellojambo1 said:

I could be wrong here but I get the impression that both halves of the OF look on winning everything at youth level as a major achievement, they seem to treat those leagues/trophies as important in the same way they look to win all trophies available at senior level. As such I can only imagine that they do all that they can to attract the best youngsters to their teams, even if thr truth is that the vast majority of the youngsters they take on board will inevitably never make it to eventual success at senior level. The one thing I have no clue about is what clubs can offer to youngsters financially, to convince them to go there rather than just aim to make their way in football by going to the senior club most local to where they, as individuals, live.

 

I'd love to see a reasonably regular conveyor belt of youth to our first team but truth is we as fans, fans of all clubs, want to see their own club succeed on the park at first team level. While it would be good to see a Hearts first team benefitting from regular progression of youths up through the levels at Tynecastle I think we are probably going to have to make do with what we see at the moment. Does that mean the academy is failing to deliver, I honestly don't know. I've no idea how much of our finance is diverted towards the academy and if that amount justifies what the academy is achieving. Or should a proportion of the funding given to the academy be diverted to the likes of Joe Savage/Robbie Neilson to bring in external players, in the knowledge that with that route not every player brought in externally goes on to succeed at first team level.

 

Not sure how true it is now but I know in previous years the reason Rangers and Celtic scooped up most trophies at youth level was because the majority of their teams were made up of players bang on the age range. For example, their under 19's would all be 19 year olds whereas other clubs would have 16/17 year olds in there as their 19's were with the 21's.

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I'd also like to say I couldn't give the shiniest of shites what the make up of our 11 is as long as there's a winning team on the park, which we appear to have at the moment.

 

If a youngster can show he's better than anyone in the current squad then great but so far I'm yet to see anyone come up with a player in our youth team who should be starting over an existing starter.

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1 minute ago, Lfhearts said:

Further to this Hivs 18s have players we would cream ourselves about, "Bob" would have them on bench, he won't play youth never will for me, agree with dim bit 100%.

 

Now now, be fair to "Bob". He would play maybe 1 of them, in a couple of league cup group stage games before dropping him out of sight and repeating the process again the next season (think McGill and Pollock).

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Only skimmed the thread so apologies if points already made, but I've a few things here

 

The club seem to know something is broken between gaining first contract and becoming a first teamer.  Hence new role of pathway manager (Naisy).  That's a very very good thing imo.

 

Our younger age groups seem on the face of things to be doing pretty well - they're the ones who'll benefit from above I guess.

 

The last few years have been a shitshow.  After admin we basically didn't have a youth system.  It was built from ground up.  It looked like it was going to be pretty good, but in all honesty, has the quality thus far been great?  It's so hard to tell.  Cochrane, McDonald, Irving stick out as talents (obv Hickey but his success is hugely apparent) but what happened with them.  Is it individual, so was Cochrane a dafty?  Did they not kick on, and why not??

 

Then there's guys like Hamilton, C Smith, Logan and maybe more who have all been on fringes and could htey have been given more time.  McGill and Pollock will approach this stage at some point.  Each of these have looked good when they've played or done well on loan.

 

What's the issue - is it that these kids all mentioned simply aren't good enough in which case, we need to scout and coach better.  Or are they good (Connor Smith and Chris Hamilton especially for me seem to have always been very hiughly regarded, including at Int level, where I think Smith has captained his age groups even), but our pathway is broken?

Finally, this will have been covered, but the setup in Scotland is wholly wrong.  Covid or no covid, the lack of a reserve or under23 league is damning.  Covid isn't an excuse - if we can play amateur and junior football, professional academies can play.  We have guys like Logan and Pollock and now Brandon who need games under their belt but the choice is stay but don't get the chance to play cos you can never get up to match sharpness, or go out on loan where you can never play for first team.  It's mental.  I'd wager if we had a reserve league, we'd have seen minutes under the belt of Logan at least this season.  Someone like Conor Smith too, who had a good preseason, may well have stayed and fought.

 

Scrapping the academy would be daft imo - we need to improve it.  The OP is a bit wur aw doomed for me and a stab at Robbie, not the academy.  Where I'd agree to an extent was last season where I think kids could have been used more, but the situation was similar with loan vs not play.  The theory was get a kid 20odd games on loan instead of a handful at Tynie.  My point would be sometimes you might just say to a kid - right it's up to you to stay here and make sure I play you.  Maybe we need to be tougher on them in a way, if that makes sense?

 

Think that's me!

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32 minutes ago, TheBigO said:



Finally, this will have been covered, but the setup in Scotland is wholly wrong.  Covid or no covid, the lack of a reserve or under23 league is damning.  Covid isn't an excuse - if we can play amateur and junior football, professional academies can play.  We have guys like Logan and Pollock and now Brandon who need games under their belt but the choice is stay but don't get the chance to play cos you can never get up to match sharpness, or go out on loan where you can never play for first team.  It's mental.  I'd wager if we had a reserve league, we'd have seen minutes under the belt of Logan at least this season.  Someone like Conor Smith too, who had a good preseason, may well have stayed and fought.

 

Scrapping the academy would be daft imo - we need to improve it.  The OP is a bit wur aw doomed for me and a stab at Robbie, not the academy.  Where I'd agree to an extent was last season where I think kids could have been used more, but the situation was similar with loan vs not play.  The theory was get a kid 20odd games on loan instead of a handful at Tynie.  My point would be sometimes you might just say to a kid - right it's up to you to stay here and make sure I play you.  Maybe we need to be tougher on them in a way, if that makes sense?

 

Think that's me!

Pretty much agree with everything here.. the bit in bold being key. I'm pretty sure I read (a few months ago now) that Andrew McKinlay had approached other chairmen with a view to come up with a solution to reserve/u23 games. Although why it comes down to him and not the governing body is hardly a surprise... the fact Scottish football is still actually functioning as an institution is staggering, given the pathetic 'leadership'.

As someone who knows very little about youth football and academies - even i can see there needs to be a 'bridge' between u18s and senior level... and the fact that there isn't, yet again, tells you all you need to know about Scottish football. It does make you wonder how many potential talents we are losing in the game, just because they can't get a regular competitive game, to be able to make the step up.

Edited by Rogue Daddy
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2 minutes ago, Rogue Daddy said:

Pretty much agree with everything here.. the bit in bold being key. I'm pretty sure I read (a few months ago now) that Andrew McKinley had approached other chairmen with a view to come up with a solution to reserve/u23 games. Although why it comes down to him and not the governing body is hardly a surprise... the fact Scottish football is still actually functioning as an institution is staggering, given the pathetic 'leadership'.

As someone who knows very little about youth football and academies - even i can see there needs to be a 'bridge' between u18s and senior level... and the fact that there isn't, yet again, tells you all you need to know about Scottish football. It does make you wonder how many potential talents we are losing in the game, just because they can't get a regular competitive game, to be able to make the step up.

Totally.  And even before covid, the situation seemed to change every 2 seasons.  21s, reserves, 21s with 2 overagers, 21s with 5 overagers, did we have 23s at some point too?

 

For me 23s with 2 or 3 overage seems to be about right.  Lets the club bring back older pros from injury and keep those on the bench sharp, let's younger kids at 16/17 play against guys more developed and lets your young pros on the fringes of the team at age 18-21 show what they can do.

 

Part of the issue you have, as with most things in Scottish football, is you'll get 5 teams who want it, 5 who don't, 1 who isn't sure and another who wants to use it as a bargaining chip.  What is required is a strong leadership who make things happen and knock heads together for the betterment of our game.

 

As you say, how many lads have been kicking their heels these last two seasons?  The loans are kind of fine, but frankly not as the only option - it simply means not everyone will play.  You want to cherry pick your loans to suit the player - but if you need to send 10 out on loan, how can you?

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portobellojambo1
1 hour ago, Nookie Bear said:

 

Daft question: if those kids are winning everything at youth level then are they not the best players around and therefore better placed to break through?

 

For my sins I honestly don't pay enough attention to how the youngsters are doing but from what I have read, either on here or on some of the links HMFC provide via their Facebook page, it looks as if most of the successful teams are in the age range of around 14-16 at the moment, and do seem to be doing very well. But at those ages they aren't yet ready for the first team, although that doesn't mean some of them may not eventually go on to be very successful with HMFC. I got the impression from what some have said, even on this thread, that they feel the academy isn't functioning as well as they maybe expected. If two or three each season do step up to the first team I would be happy with that, if from one of the groups a larger number progress even better.

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6 minutes ago, portobellojambo1 said:

 

For my sins I honestly don't pay enough attention to how the youngsters are doing but from what I have read, either on here or on some of the links HMFC provide via their Facebook page, it looks as if most of the successful teams are in the age range of around 14-16 at the moment, and do seem to be doing very well. But at those ages they aren't yet ready for the first team, although that doesn't mean some of them may not eventually go on to be very successful with HMFC. I got the impression from what some have said, even on this thread, that they feel the academy isn't functioning as well as they maybe expected. If two or three each season do step up to the first team I would be happy with that, if from one of the groups a larger number progress even better.

 

Definitely this.

 

Also think we need to sometimes be content that not every player will be a star and win us trophies before being sold for £10m. Some will be useful and dependable squad players that will save us the money and risk of importing similar players.

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11 minutes ago, portobellojambo1 said:

 

For my sins I honestly don't pay enough attention to how the youngsters are doing but from what I have read, either on here or on some of the links HMFC provide via their Facebook page, it looks as if most of the successful teams are in the age range of around 14-16 at the moment, and do seem to be doing very well. But at those ages they aren't yet ready for the first team, although that doesn't mean some of them may not eventually go on to be very successful with HMFC. I got the impression from what some have said, even on this thread, that they feel the academy isn't functioning as well as they maybe expected. If two or three each season do step up to the first team I would be happy with that, if from one of the groups a larger number progress even better.

And even then 2 or 3 a year is a lot.

 

Like you say, I think the club know the academy hasn't done what it should have and Ann herself said not long ago it was being looked at, especially the pathway side of things.

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Pasquale for King
5 hours ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

And we've overtaken them in a season. 

 

I know you are a bit dim,but surely you are not advocating playing youth over getting results and that numbers are the most important thing when it comes to youth 

 

Would playing 11 youth players every week make you happy as we get hammered? Football is a results business and to your disgust Bob is delivering. 

Hibs have made a  grand total of nothing from their youth recently and are currently 5th.

Aberdeen one player like we have, the difference in value was lenght of contract, nothing to do with the quality of the player from the Academy. 

 

We've also produced lots of young players, many are playing for other teams. So we do produce, just not players fit for a 3rd place team or for challenging the league. 

We also have the best one in the country playing for us. 

 

So no, every other team isn't doing it better than us, unless you think success of youth is just chucking numbers into the first team, which for some reason you do. 

Fair enough. 

 

We can improve on youth and I'm sure it's on the agenda, but improvement and stability of the teams performance is number 1 priority and that thanks to Savage and Bob is coming along nicely. Far more important than youth numbers coming through. Far more. 

 

In your anger to make Hearts look bad at something you lose all balance and for some reason pull up trees just to make us look bad or worse at things.

Now you are championing hibs as some kind of benchmark for youth! 

Reallt strange Tbh.

 

Each to their own tho, if slagging Hearts across multiple threads makes you feel good, then crack on. It is somewhat entertaining as your Bob seethe unfolds. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You don’t have talk nonsense and miss the point continually. 
Other clubs have more academy players in their teams, including Rangers and Celtic and it’s not holding them back in anyway. 
It’s like you, simple. 

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Pasquale for King
2 hours ago, Nookie Bear said:

 

Definitely this.

 

Also think we need to sometimes be content that not every player will be a star and win us trophies before being sold for £10m. Some will be useful and dependable squad players that will save us the money and risk of importing similar players.

Definitely. It’s a point that others are missing, having decent graduates in the squad gives you more money to give to signings from elsewhere. Well done to the club to realise the past regime failed miserably and that change was needed and seems to be getting better. 

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Smith&Weston

Hearts have already said that the Academy has been neglected for the past 5 years with everything that has went on but are now working to build it back up.  Agree we need a proper strategy to bring through some of these players but I’m sure Neilson would put them in if they were good enough.  I would think we will start to see some fruits again in 2-3 years.

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jamboinglasgow

One thing that could have benefited the younger players last season and this is if there was 5 subs allowed in a match. It means there is more opportunity for less experienced players to get some game time. However it was stopped from happening in the Championship last season and Premiership this season for the same reason, that some clubs felt other clubs benefited from it.

 

I see the SPFL are trying to re-introduce it and I think it should, not just to give youngsters some game time but also to protect players in what will be a hectic period of games. 

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1 hour ago, jamboinglasgow said:

One thing that could have benefited the younger players last season and this is if there was 5 subs allowed in a match. It means there is more opportunity for less experienced players to get some game time. However it was stopped from happening in the Championship last season and Premiership this season for the same reason, that some clubs felt other clubs benefited from it.

 

I see the SPFL are trying to re-introduce it and I think it should, not just to give youngsters some game time but also to protect players in what will be a hectic period of games. 

 

 

The rule should be 5 subs including at least two under 21.

 

 

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Lone Striker
4 hours ago, hmfc_liam06 said:

I'd also like to say I couldn't give the shiniest of shites what the make up of our 11 is as long as there's a winning team on the park, which we appear to have at the moment.

 

If a youngster can show he's better than anyone in the current squad then great but so far I'm yet to see anyone come up with a player in our youth team who should be starting over an existing starter.

If there was a fans vote on whether Hearts should pick the strongest available team every week, or make a point of playing 1 or 2 academy players every week - I'm pretty sure the majority would agree with your view.

 

I think there's another factor at play here, as to why only a tiny percentage of academy players become regulars in any top  club's first team - money.    But for 2 different reasons.

 

 If a club is only just keeping its head above water financially, they're probably more likely to promote their best youngsters early - simply because their transfer and wage budget is relatively low.   Clubs like St. Johnstone, Motherwell, St Mirren etc will hope to get 3 or 4 years service from their best youngsters and then hope to get a decent transfer fee for some of them.

 

Clubs with a bigger income and bigger budgets can afford to buy ready-made experience each year, which reduces the likelihood of places for young academy players. It probably means only an  exceptional talent will get some game time (e.g.  Hickey for us, Tierney at Celtic)

 

I think there's a narrow "middle ground" where a club puts at risk its trophy ambitions in order to give exposure to decent but not outstanding youngsters largely to attract transfer bids for them (e.g. our neighbours)   

 

Celtic are an enigma though.   Their academy has good track record over many years (as @Footballfirst pointed out) - some of their managers have shown faith in them, while others like Ange seem to just want to throw money at filling every team position  with a foreign face. 

 

I think there's good reason to be optimistic that our academy has  started operating in a more professional way with higher targets, thanks to the changes Ann Budge approved over the the last 18 months. 

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1 hour ago, Lone Striker said:

 

I think there's another factor at play here, as to why only a tiny percentage of academy players become regulars in any top  club's first team - money.    But for 2 different reasons.

 

 

 

Pretty sure an Academy player goes onto a different payscale once they've played for the first team so if you play a lot of them it will affect the wage bill 

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18 hours ago, Hesh said:


if you’re expecting to roll out 11+ players for the first team each season you’re behind the curve. 


One would be good! 😏

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