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Should Scotland be an independent country?


Alex Kintner

Should Scotland be an independent country?  

505 members have voted

  1. 1. Should Scotland be an independent country?

    • Yes
      313
    • No
      166
    • Don’t know/ Abstain/ Spoil ballot
      26


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Shooter McGavin
Just now, pablo said:

 

It's a terrible situation and collectively we should be doing everything possible to eliminate the need for them.

 

But you do know that millions of people rely on food banks in France, in Germany and elsewhere?

 

Westminster being solely responsible for everything wrong in the world today and breaking up the United Kingdom being the solution to everything is a nonsense.

100% agree, for developed nations it’s utterly embarrassing.

 

I personally have not, and am not, suggesting Westminster is solely responsible, and as I touched on earlier, I certainly don’t believe leaving the United Kingdom is the solution to everything. I have never once claimed it was either.

 

What really irks me is the complete disregard from Westminster to these issues, I’ve never been so disgusted at a government than the one we’ve seen under Johnsons premiership. We’ve had crap governments in the past, but this one is so brazen in their contempt for the public. They’ve really lowered the bar, hence my race to the bottom comments.

 

And from listening to Sunak & Truss, I don’t see much changing under them either. I don’t see an appetite for change at Westminster, just more of the same, and that could be potentially devastating.

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The Mighty Thor
4 hours ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Exactly . Mud is thrown from both Sides . I’m genuinely startled by the snp response to Truss comments when they have basically relied on being “ anti English “ for decades . 

 

4 hours ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

come on there is an element of some anti English sentiment.  ? 

Evidence plz of the political party, the SNP being anti-English.

 

Many thanks in advance.

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Unknown user
21 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

Westminster being solely responsible for everything wrong in the world today and breaking up the United Kingdom being the solution to everything is a nonsense.

 

That's just completely misrepresenting the argument.

 

No one's said independence is the solution to everything, but I'll settle for a government that exists to serve Scotland over one that really couldn't GAF.

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JudyJudyJudy
23 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

 

Evidence plz of the political party, the SNP being anti-English.

 

Many thanks in advance.

Im busy this weekend I’ll get back to you after I’ve had time  to do research 😎😂

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JudyJudyJudy
Just now, jonesy said:

And of course, as many of the independentistas say, the SNP will, post-indy, likely disappear and a range of other parties will represent us at Holyrood with this lot among their leaders. Cannae wait. It'll be oh-so-different from the incompetence and corruption of Holyrood. :( 

 

Just be honest. You're happy for political leaders to be incompetent, you just don't want them to have plummy accents. :) 

In a nutshell 

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17 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

That's just completely misrepresenting the argument.

 

No one's said independence is the solution to everything, but I'll settle for a government that exists to serve Scotland over one that really couldn't GAF.

 

The government does exist to serve the whole of the UK. Does it do it well? That's a completely different discussion. 

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The Mighty Thor
11 minutes ago, jonesy said:

And of course, as many of the independentistas say, the SNP will, post-indy, likely disappear and a range of other parties will represent us at Holyrood with this lot among their leaders. Cannae wait. It'll be oh-so-different from the incompetence and corruption of WM. :( 

 

Just be honest. You're happy for political leaders to be incompetent, you just don't want them to have plummy accents. :) 

The voters of Scotland decide old boy. 

Inept branch office politics I not really suitable for any country in the 21st century.

Labour and the Conservatives are disappearing before your very eyes. That's because what they’re offering is not what the people of Scotland want as has been evidenced over the last 15 years. 

 

I'm not really hung up on accents, or class or wealth being a measure of anything. The Junta should have exploded that myth for you. 

 

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The Mighty Thor
16 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

 

10 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

 

So the Orkney branch Facebook page administrator speaks for the SNP party?

 

Your second one is what they call 'reaching' 

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JudyJudyJudy
2 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

 

 

So the Orkney branch Facebook page administrator speaks for the SNP party?

 

Your second one is what they call 'reaching' 

Oh im sure there’s more out there . Certainly heard plenty anti English sentiment in my “ kilted warrior Indy “ days 

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Unknown user
16 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

The government does exist to serve the whole of the UK. Does it do it well? That's a completely different discussion. 

Theoretically, but Westminster's not interested in Scotland.

This current lot in particular certainly isn't, and we must have had Tory governments 30 out of the last 45 years.

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The Mighty Thor
Just now, JudyJudyJudy said:

Oh im sure there’s more out there . Certainly heard plenty anti English sentiment in my “ kilted warrior Indy “ days 

So you've heard Scottish people being anti English? So have I.

 

I haven't heard the political party, the SNP, being anti English which was what you said. 

 

If you're going to post nonsense at least try to be accurate with it otherwise you'll end up with people thinking you're a slavering troll. 

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4 minutes ago, Smithee said:

Theoretically, but Westminster's not interested in Scotland.

This current lot in particular certainly isn't, and we must have had Tory governments 30 out of the last 45 years.

 

Is it less interested in Scotland than elsewhere? If so where? Also, wasn't that the whole point of devolution? So we could diverge from the UK in matters such as health and education and tailor policy to meet our needs?

 

That's working out well since the nationalists took a stranglehold over the Scottish Executive.

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Unknown user
6 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

Is it less interested in Scotland than elsewhere? If so where? Also, wasn't that the whole point of devolution? So we could diverge from the UK in matters such as health and education and tailor policy to meet our needs?

 

That's working out well since the nationalists took a stranglehold over the Scottish Executive.

I'm not particularly arsed about elsewhere, they can speak for themselves!

Scotland deserves a democratic voice instead of getting whatever government England decides though.

 

Quite apart from anything else, a government that's chosen by England's electorate is going to keep that in mind if they want elected again.

Want English votes and don't care about Scottish votes?

Anglocentric policies are the answer, why would they do anything else? The way things are set up makes us an after thought.

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1 minute ago, Smithee said:

I'm not particularly arsed about elsewhere, they can speak for themselves!

Scotland deserves a democratic voice instead of getting whatever government England decides though.

 

Quite apart from anything else, a government that's chosen by England's electorate is going to keep that in mind if they want elected again.

Want English votes and don't care about Scottish votes?

Anglocentric policies are the answer, why would they do anything else? The way things are set up makes us an after thought.

 

Yeah I know. We'll never agree on this. For me, there is no Scotland and England in terms of Westminster. Over three hundred years ago Scotland and England merged to become the United Kingdom. You have a vote. The fact you don't get the government you want is neither here nor there. We have the Scottish Executive to nuance to local situation. The grievance in your mind, isn't present in mine. That's not to say I'm happy with a Conservative government or vote for one. The Nationalists don't speak for Scotland. It's impossible to do so.

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Unknown user
11 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

Yeah I know. We'll never agree on this. For me, there is no Scotland and England in terms of Westminster. Over three hundred years ago Scotland and England merged to become the United Kingdom. You have a vote. The fact you don't get the government you want is neither here nor there. We have the Scottish Executive to nuance to local situation. The grievance in your mind, isn't present in mine. That's not to say I'm happy with a Conservative government or vote for one. The Nationalists don't speak for Scotland. It's impossible to do so.

 

My position isn't grievance based, it's hope based.

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4 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

My position isn't grievance based, it's hope based.

 

It's misplaced then. In my opinion obviously. You start every position from a view that Scotland is an equal in terms of nationhood as the UK is. But it isn't. And I say that as a proud Scot.

 

Also, to indulge the theoretical. How is this vision of an independent Scotland the SNP is selling attractive? It's pretty right wing neoliberalism bollox. More of the same with a Saltire plastered over everything. Where's the radical change or thinking coming from? Just some point in the future?

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JudyJudyJudy
54 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

you'll end up with people thinking you're a slavering troll. 

they already do so ive nowt to lose really

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Unknown user
45 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

It's misplaced then. In my opinion obviously. You start every position from a view that Scotland is an equal in terms of nationhood as the UK is. But it isn't. And I say that as a proud Scot.

 

Also, to indulge the theoretical. How is this vision of an independent Scotland the SNP is selling attractive? It's pretty right wing neoliberalism bollox. More of the same with a Saltire plastered over everything. Where's the radical change or thinking coming from? Just some point in the future?

 

When's the radical change or thinking coming from staying in the union?

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Unknown user
1 minute ago, jonesy said:

Sorry man, usually your posts provide a decent set of arguments, but that one reads like a bingo card of nationalist slogans. 😅

 

Testicles old chap, all reasonable posting.

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5 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

When's the radical change or thinking coming from staying in the union?

 

A continued lurch to the right under this government. Some of their policies seem pretty radical to me, although not ones I agree with.

 

But there's no staying in the Union because there is no Union. The United Kingdom is the result of a union that happened over 300 years ago. Expect the Supreme Court to point this out in the next month or so.

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Unknown user
1 minute ago, pablo said:

A continued lurch to the right under this government. Some of their policies seem pretty radical to me, although not ones I agree with.

 

 

So, in reality, all it would actually take is treading water to be in a better position than the alternative.

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7 hours ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

come on there is an element of some anti English sentiment.  ? 

 

No there isn't. 

 

Genuinely, the only folk I hear going on about Scottish Independence and Anti Englishness is Unionists. It reeks of 'if you say it enough times it must be true'.

 

There is a great video of a guy with a Union flag clearly out to antagonise at a YES march and the people could not have been nicer to him. That I think is a brilliant example of the mentality among the yes movement. 

 

There is a huge awareness within the Yes movement that bigotry, anger and hate won't win hearts or minds to the cause and I think broadly speaking yes voters are excellent at self policing. There are examples of a few bad apples, like in any group but those people from my own observations are quickly pulled aside or kicked out. 

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2 hours ago, jack D and coke said:

 

Probably around July-October 2023 if the SNP can keep to the October referendum date. 

 

Of course it will all magically be there again in November. 

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The Mighty Thor
2 hours ago, jonesy said:

But by your own admission, Sturgeon has seen off the best that Scottish politics has to offer. That doesn't, IMO, bode well for the pluralistic, inclusive Scottish political scene in a post-independence Parliament. 

My posts are generally a machine gun of the utter guff that's in between my lugs!

 

On the point highlighted;

The problem is the SNP have seen off the branch office dwellers, who by and large follow the policy of Westminster which has been mangled to fit what London thinks Scotland needs or wants. 

 

The Scottish Labour and Conservative groups need to stop being branch offices. Set up proper Scottish parties, behave like proper Scottish opposition and not like sock puppets for CCHQ and Labour HQ. 

Otherwise they'll be in the long grass for a mighty long time. 

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manaliveits105

Ruth Davidson: I will return to front-line politics in the event of indyref2
 

Great offer from Scotlands best politician in recent years but it won’t be happening Ruth so not needed 

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jack D and coke

Kevin McKenna is no fan of Sturgeon either. Regularly rips into her and this SNP. 
Truss and Sunak must be adding some digits onto the Yes vote now…

Even the Lib Dem woman ripped into Truss also for her shocking comments about ignoring the great people of Scotland. 
 

 

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The Mighty Thor

 

Not a great situation for an energy and resource rich country to find itself in. 

 

Keep waving the wee union jacks but. 

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The Mighty Thor
2 hours ago, manaliveits105 said:

Ruth Davidson: I will return to front-line politics in the event of indyref2
 

Great offer from Scotlands best politician in recent years but it won’t be happening Ruth so not needed 

 

Things have dried up for Baroness Mooth

 

She's had to sink to hawking herself as a shite Kim Jong Un lookalike

iaaJe9vc?format=jpg&name=small

 

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Roxy Hearts
4 hours ago, manaliveits105 said:

Ruth Davidson: I will return to front-line politics in the event of indyref2
 

Great offer from Scotlands best politician in recent years but it won’t be happening Ruth so not needed 

She's an insufferable Tory stooge who's  done nothing for our country. Gets an easy time from our media. Couldn't lace Sturgeon's boots! Wish she would take her English Nationalism elsewhere.

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That thing you do
On 06/08/2022 at 10:12, JudyJudyJudy said:

Im busy this weekend I’ll get back to you after I’ve had time  to do research 😎😂

Aye. Start with googling. "How many english people are part of SNP"

 

Repeat with msps/mps of snp

 

Then sprinkle on a search for English Scots for Yes.

 

Youll find SNP has plenty English members

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manaliveits105

As usual Sturgeon isn’t really helping the Scottish people - just standing back with token gestures whilst shouting it’s all the bloody Tories fault - one trick pony 

 

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jack D and coke
10 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

As usual Sturgeon isn’t really helping the Scottish people - just standing back with token gestures whilst shouting it’s all the bloody Tories fault - one trick pony 

 

Naw she actually is. I’m no fan of this SNP but they can only mitigate so much. 
What do you suggest she does? 

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jack D and coke
Just now, jonesy said:

She could start by fecking off and stop trying to micromanage people's lives.

Ok. How is she micro managing your life? 
 

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7 hours ago, jack D and coke said:

Naw she actually is. I’m no fan of this SNP but they can only mitigate so much. 
What do you suggest she does? 


I agree she has one hand tied behind her back but what is she doing to help ? 
 

 

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manaliveits105

She is wasting effort, time and money on an indyref2 attempt at a time of hardship for the people of Scotland - she would gain more support by postponing it and helping people through the cost of living crisis - not raising her eyes stamping her feet and blaming the Tories - but won’t happen 

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Konrad von Carstein
6 hours ago, jonesy said:

She could start by fecking off and stop trying to micromanage people's lives.

:interehjrling:

 

You seem like the average Joe, much like myself (only my name is Konrad), I don't feel that my life is being micromanaged by Scot Gov, fecked over by Westminster yes but SNP/Scot Gov? No.

Interested in finding out the ways your life is micromanaged by them.

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Konrad von Carstein
4 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

She is wasting effort, time and money on an indyref2 attempt at a time of hardship for the people of Scotland - she would gain more support by postponing it and helping people through the cost of living crisis - not raising her eyes stamping her feet and blaming the Tories - but won’t happen 

Oh, the attenion seeker has arisen.

 

Good morning MAI105 :)

 

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The Mighty Thor
1 hour ago, manaliveits105 said:

She is wasting effort, time and money on an indyref2 attempt at a time of hardship for the people of Scotland - she would gain more support by postponing it and helping people through the cost of living crisis - not raising her eyes stamping her feet and blaming the Tories - but won’t happen 

another hot take that misses the low bar of intelligence to understand what's going on. 

 

Another day rent free

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The Real Maroonblood
1 hour ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

Oh, the attenion seeker has arisen.

 

Good morning MAI105 :)

 

:greggy:

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1 hour ago, manaliveits105 said:

She is wasting effort, time and money on an indyref2 attempt at a time of hardship for the people of Scotland - she would gain more support by postponing it and helping people through the cost of living crisis - not raising her eyes stamping her feet and blaming the Tories - but won’t happen 

I agree. She is wasting time!

 

She needs to get a bloody move on and get us out of this shit show of a union!

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jack D and coke
3 hours ago, manaliveits105 said:

She is wasting effort, time and money on an indyref2 attempt at a time of hardship for the people of Scotland - she would gain more support by postponing it and helping people through the cost of living crisis - not raising her eyes stamping her feet and blaming the Tories - but won’t happen 

Have you noticed the British govt seem to be on their holidays? 
Who really has the tools to help? 
Still interested hearing about your micro managed life too@jonesy

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So independence… what would that really mean.  
Fairness, nae torries and making our own decisions… is that really what we’d get ?? Would it really be independence or actually just a messier more expensive version of what we have now. 

We would have to use the British pound for a number of years and so be held under the control of the Bank of Englands monetary policy until we create a new currency which would ultimately be tied to U.K. our biggest market  (see below) 
We share the same island (that’s why we are British not because we have mair goons up here)

To get goods into European:world markets we would transit the majority of goods through England.. we could double up our delays, a sort of supersized Brexit - at Carlisle and Dover.. cost £s and tonnes of extra forms to do the same things. Ultimately losing trade. 
Our infrastructure, army - electricity etc “the utilities” are mainly U.K. owned and any unwind would be incredibly costly and take many years .. in fact we’d probably find it sensible to share in the end. The big promise to the CND mob wouldn’t happened we’d keep those Nukes at Faslane as NATO would tell us too or we’d be out on our arse.
We’d have split families and friends across the U.K. Can I go and see granny yep but it’s a four hour wait at Carlisle and remember the £15 at the toll.. I’ll no bother then …

Most of the companies are cross U.K. but majority of business sits with U.K. registration. c 90% population and customers. .. decisions that may favour Scottish locations would change to U.K. this is an ongoing London / Edinburgh battle currently. Key jobs likely to move to England. Add higher tax for senior or high paid high worth its an easy decision. Also who would want paid in a non U.K. £ Sterling.. the rush south would surprise people up here. 

We currently have trade of c. 62% exports and 67% imports with the U.K.   just a “small” reliance on the U.K.. 

If we had independence, we’d have our own parliament .. (don’t we have that on a devolved basis already) but geographical and economically and socially be ruled by our relationship with the rest of the U.K. the larger party. 
We’d still all use English as our main language.. 

Does anyone else see a few minor flaws here also a real risk that independence would be a false dawn and the reality wouldn’t be independence just a continued more expensive status quo. 
ohh no that’s all just fear.. no it isn’t it’s just the costs and what would be a Sudo-independence at best.  

We’d see the reworking of the walls the Romans first built. Funnily enough the Romans built these to keep the Scots out…. 

 

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Konrad von Carstein
16 minutes ago, jambomjm74 said:

So independence… what would that really mean.  
Fairness, nae torries and making our own decisions… is that really what we’d get ?? Would it really be independence or actually just a messier more expensive version of what we have now. 

We would have to use the British pound for a number of years and so be held under the control of the Bank of Englands monetary policy until we create a new currency which would ultimately be tied to U.K. our biggest market  (see below) 
We share the same island (that’s why we are British not because we have mair goons up here)

To get goods into European:world markets we would transit the majority of goods through England.. we could double up our delays, a sort of supersized Brexit - at Carlisle and Dover.. cost £s and tonnes of extra forms to do the same things. Ultimately losing trade. 
Our infrastructure, army - electricity etc “the utilities” are mainly U.K. owned and any unwind would be incredibly costly and take many years .. in fact we’d probably find it sensible to share in the end. The big promise to the CND mob wouldn’t happened we’d keep those Nukes at Faslane as NATO would tell us too or we’d be out on our arse.
We’d have split families and friends across the U.K. Can I go and see granny yep but it’s a four hour wait at Carlisle and remember the £15 at the toll.. I’ll no bother then …

Most of the companies are cross U.K. but majority of business sits with U.K. registration. c 90% population and customers. .. decisions that may favour Scottish locations would change to U.K. this is an ongoing London / Edinburgh battle currently. Key jobs likely to move to England. Add higher tax for senior or high paid high worth its an easy decision. Also who would want paid in a non U.K. £ Sterling.. the rush south would surprise people up here. 

We currently have trade of c. 62% exports and 67% imports with the U.K.   just a “small” reliance on the U.K.. 

If we had independence, we’d have our own parliament .. (don’t we have that on a devolved basis already) but geographical and economically and socially be ruled by our relationship with the rest of the U.K. the larger party. 
We’d still all use English as our main language.. 

Does anyone else see a few minor flaws here also a real risk that independence would be a false dawn and the reality wouldn’t be independence just a continued more expensive status quo. 
ohh no that’s all just fear.. no it isn’t it’s just the costs and what would be a Sudo-independence at best.  

We’d see the reworking of the walls the Romans first built. Funnily enough the Romans built these to keep the Scots out…. 

 

Lots of opinion & hypothesis presented as fact there JJ

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Konrad von Carstein
1 minute ago, jonesy said:

Feck sake man, I'm at work :( Have a wee bit patience and I'll gammonsplain it all to you tonight :)

Hoi! I asked the effin question first! 😠

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