manaliveits105 Posted August 5, 2022 Share Posted August 5, 2022 14 minutes ago, jonesy said: More like the fact she's a bitter, incapable woman winning votes from morons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konrad von Carstein Posted August 5, 2022 Share Posted August 5, 2022 16 minutes ago, jonesy said: More like the fact she's a bitter, incapable woman winning votes from morons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pans Jambo Posted August 5, 2022 Share Posted August 5, 2022 2 hours ago, OTT said: It really is vile isn't it? Pure shameless selfishness from the Torys. I cannot fathom why so many folk are entrenched in the view that the Union/status quo is the way to go. The standard of living in the UK versus Ireland or mainland Europe is shocking and we're entirely at the mercy of a voter base that clearly hold different views to the voters in Scotland, We've not voted Tory since 1955 and have had to lurch through the thatcher years for a brief restbite of Blair and Brown who had to swing to the right to actually get elected in England. We're watching Starmer attempt to poorly imitate that whilst selling out the very Unions on which his party is founded. I don't see brief moments of labour governments being a viable reason to veto independence. Things do not get better for Scotland within the Union. Sunak is on record saying he wants to end the 'devolve and forget' culture (getting them to devolve anything seems to be like getting a derby win out of hibs ) which says to me the view of the tory party is that devolution needs to be rolled back and rendered toothless. We've already saw Truss who is the bookies favourite show absolutely zero respect to the position of first minister (to both Scotland and Wales). I think the Tory's genuinely view Scotland and Wales as possessions which is such an unbelievably poisonous mindset and if we're not, then we deserve a right to choose if post Brexit this is really what we as a nation want. I am feeling a bit like I'm losing patience with no voters. It doesn't matter how bad life gets within the Union, in their heads Independence means we somehow become the Ethiopia of Europe. Its ridiculous and depressing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack D and coke Posted August 5, 2022 Share Posted August 5, 2022 31 minutes ago, jonesy said: The Tory chancers are simply playing to the gallery. Anti-SNP rhetoric is a cosy, non-divisive issue for that lot. The SNP chancers, like Sturgeon, do exactly the same, knowing full well how much the mere mention of the T-word gets the average Yes voter frothing at the gash. IMO 😀 I agree actually. I’m really frustrated with this SNP. This SNP play to a gallery also who don’t really know what the snp is supposed to be. Im not saying people are stupid and I suppose I don’t mean people who vote for the union are stupid either they’re just taken in by different rhetoric. I don’t think I’m smarter either but I see right through this snp, they’re not the alternative they try to appear. They’re absolute frauds imo but they know they have a captive audience. I hope I’ve worded that right I’m a bit tipsy shall we say 😬🤪 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted August 5, 2022 Share Posted August 5, 2022 6 minutes ago, jack D and coke said: I agree actually. I’m really frustrated with this SNP. This SNP play to a gallery also who don’t really know what the snp is supposed to be. Im not saying people are stupid and I suppose I don’t mean people who vote for the union are stupid either they’re just taken in by different rhetoric. I don’t think I’m smarter either but I see right through this snp, they’re not the alternative they try to appear. They’re absolute frauds imo but they know they have a captive audience. I hope I’ve worded that right I’m a bit tipsy shall we say 😬🤪 I don't think people are necessarily taken in by rhetoric, most people who you'd call unionist or nationalist are that way due to their own principles. A decent percentage will certainly hold their nose when voting SNP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack D and coke Posted August 5, 2022 Share Posted August 5, 2022 1 minute ago, Smithee said: I don't think people are necessarily taken in by rhetoric, most people who you'd call unionist or nationalist are that way due to their own principles. A decent percentage will certainly hold their nose when voting SNP. It’s not often it crops up in a conversation with my pals tbh but it did tonight. Both of them said they were for indy but with some basic questions they looked at me like I was daft, had no clue about anything truth be told. I take interest in it I suppose and try to educate myself but they just said they didn’t like Johnson etc and I know there’s the same who base it all on sturgeon and think that’s what it’s all about. It’s frustrating that so many votes are probably cast this way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Byyy The Light Posted August 6, 2022 Share Posted August 6, 2022 This thread genuinely makes me sad and fear for my daughters’ future. What depresses me the most is that there is no will to work together for the greater good. No respect, no humility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Boy Named Crow Posted August 6, 2022 Share Posted August 6, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, jack D and coke said: It’s not often it crops up in a conversation with my pals tbh but it did tonight. Both of them said they were for indy but with some basic questions they looked at me like I was daft, had no clue about anything truth be told. I take interest in it I suppose and try to educate myself but they just said they didn’t like Johnson etc and I know there’s the same who base it all on sturgeon and think that’s what it’s all about. It’s frustrating that so many votes are probably cast this way. I've said it before, democracy is no way to run a country. Great swathes of the population are not able to make an informed decision, even if they wanted to be self centred and vote in their own self interest, they wouldn't know how to. Yet everybody gets one vote... Democracy has lasted so long because it us such an effective way of keeping the people in their place. Edited August 6, 2022 by A Boy Named Crow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Byyy The Light Posted August 6, 2022 Share Posted August 6, 2022 25 minutes ago, A Boy Named Crow said: I've said it before, democracy is no way to run a country. Great swathes of the population are not able to make an informed decision, even if they wanted to be self centred and vote in their own self interest, they wouldn't know how to. Yet everybody gets one vote... Democracy has lasted so long because it us such an effective way of keeping the people in their place. Realistic alternatives? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Boy Named Crow Posted August 6, 2022 Share Posted August 6, 2022 31 minutes ago, Byyy The Light said: Realistic alternatives? Aye, that's a tricky one. I think some kind of technocratic government, where the departments are headed by experts in those fields. Top doctors in health, teachers in education etc is my preference. Divorce the whole thing from the easily manipulated and utterly subjective opinions of the general public. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roxy Hearts Posted August 6, 2022 Share Posted August 6, 2022 10 hours ago, jonesy said: The Tory chancers are simply playing to the gallery. Anti-SNP rhetoric is a cosy, non-divisive issue for that lot. The SNP chancers, like Sturgeon, do exactly the same, knowing full well how much the mere mention of the T-word gets the average Yes voter frothing at the gash. IMO 😀 It's the British establishment I detest. The further away we can get in a political sense the better. Fed up with the insults and condescension. I look at it and think who on earth wants to be governed by that lot and just accept the way they treat Scotland and its people. It's madness. This isn't about Sturgeon, it's about our own esteem and self respect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Real Maroonblood Posted August 6, 2022 Share Posted August 6, 2022 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said: It's the British establishment I detest. The further away we can get in a political sense the better. Fed up with the insults and condescension. I look at it and think who on earth wants to be governed by that lot and just accept the way they treat Scotland and its people. It's madness. This isn't about Sturgeon, it's about our own esteem and self respect. Why would any country on Earth not want to govern themselves? Edited August 6, 2022 by The Real Maroonblood Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooter McGavin Posted August 6, 2022 Share Posted August 6, 2022 8 hours ago, Byyy The Light said: This thread genuinely makes me sad and fear for my daughters’ future. What depresses me the most is that there is no will to work together for the greater good. No respect, no humility. There are far too many people on these threads that are too lazy to develop objective arguments, or articulate why they believe, in this example, Scotland should or should not be an independent country. Too many are just looking for a quick buzz of getting a reaction from people with silly arguments that they don’t back up with any kind of source or material, or they’ll just spout hysterical nonsense about a political leader or political group and pass it off as some kind of clever, well informed argument. It’s all very immature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roxy Hearts Posted August 6, 2022 Share Posted August 6, 2022 16 minutes ago, The Real Maroonblood said: Why would any country on Earth not want to govern themselves? Correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusk_Till_Dawn Posted August 6, 2022 Share Posted August 6, 2022 19 hours ago, That thing you do said: Sunak saying he fixed levelling up formulas to benefit Tory Shires. A pound in Croydon is worth more than a pound in strathclyde "Im ok with the status quo" Im not. Not on the fecking high street it isn’t Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konrad von Carstein Posted August 6, 2022 Share Posted August 6, 2022 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pablo Posted August 6, 2022 Share Posted August 6, 2022 36 minutes ago, The Real Maroonblood said: Why would any country on Earth not want to govern themselves? We do Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusk_Till_Dawn Posted August 6, 2022 Share Posted August 6, 2022 20 minutes ago, Shooter McGavin said: There are far too many people on these threads that are too lazy to develop objective arguments, or articulate why they believe, in this example, Scotland should or should not be an independent country. Too many are just looking for a quick buzz of getting a reaction from people with silly arguments that they don’t back up with any kind of source or material, or they’ll just spout hysterical nonsense about a political leader or political group and pass it off as some kind of clever, well informed argument. It’s all very immature. There’s a reasonable point to be made, though, about whether the standard of politician in Scotland promises decent governance. There are loads of BTEC politicians in Scotland, any objective eye can see that. It’s fine to say that it probably can’t be worse than Westminster (which is true) but it’s not much of an argument either. Vote on ideology. It’s the only way. Because no-one knows how it will work out, on either side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konrad von Carstein Posted August 6, 2022 Share Posted August 6, 2022 1 minute ago, pablo said: We don't. Fixed, you're welcome Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pablo Posted August 6, 2022 Share Posted August 6, 2022 Just now, Konrad von Carstein said: Fixed, you're welcome Good one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boab Posted August 6, 2022 Share Posted August 6, 2022 21 hours ago, jack D and coke said: You think truss watches some FMQ? I can’t remember who said it but even top Labour MSP’s said when they spoke about anything happening up here when Labour ran it in holyrood Tony Blair used to stare out the window. Couldn’t have cared less. Swinney is possibly a decent enough bloke but he’s so lacking in any charisma as well. They really should have just said nothing imo Truss is doing a top job on herself without any assistance. I did say maybe she was advised. I don't think she is capable of that on her own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooter McGavin Posted August 6, 2022 Share Posted August 6, 2022 16 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said: There’s a reasonable point to be made, though, about whether the standard of politician in Scotland promises decent governance. There are loads of BTEC politicians in Scotland, any objective eye can see that. It’s fine to say that it probably can’t be worse than Westminster (which is true) but it’s not much of an argument either. Vote on ideology. It’s the only way. Because no-one knows how it will work out, on either side. I agree, and I think this is something that is lacking on the independence front, there are still plenty of unanswered questions, and fear of the unknown. I think, if independence did go through, there would be a “S***, what now?” moment as there will be a monumental amount of things that need sorted out, as we seen with Brexit it’s not as simple as a “See you later!” I completely agree with your last point. It worries me when people on either side of the debate claim their solution is the fix to everything. It wont be. There will be pro’s and cons on both sides, it’s about weighing them up and choosing the one that’ll yield the best results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted August 6, 2022 Share Posted August 6, 2022 12 hours ago, jonesy said: The Tory chancers are simply playing to the gallery. Anti-SNP rhetoric is a cosy, non-divisive issue for that lot. The SNP chancers, like Sturgeon, do exactly the same, knowing full well how much the mere mention of the T-word gets the average Yes voter frothing at the gash. IMO 😀 Exactly . Mud is thrown from both Sides . I’m genuinely startled by the snp response to Truss comments when they have basically relied on being “ anti English “ for decades . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted August 6, 2022 Share Posted August 6, 2022 9 hours ago, A Boy Named Crow said: I've said it before, democracy is no way to run a country. Great swathes of the population are not able to make an informed decision, even if they wanted to be self centred and vote in their own self interest, they wouldn't know how to. Yet everybody gets one vote... Democracy has lasted so long because it us such an effective way of keeping the people in their place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawnrazor Posted August 6, 2022 Share Posted August 6, 2022 14 minutes ago, Shooter McGavin said: There will be pro’s and cons on both sides, it’s about weighing them up and choosing the one that’ll yield the best results. Absolutely correct, there's a lot of froth, ideological stubbornness and childish name calling, a lot of people just wa t to know what currency Scotland will use, will we be better or worse off and roughly by how much and for how long, things like that and don't think that's too much to ask and by now, you'd think both sides would be able to answer questions like that, they had long enough to figure them out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawnrazor Posted August 6, 2022 Share Posted August 6, 2022 3 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said: Would. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted August 6, 2022 Share Posted August 6, 2022 Anything to divert any discussion about what an Indy Scotland would be like . Rather pathetic and arrogant too and ironically evidences how long she’s just been beating the same drum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pablo Posted August 6, 2022 Share Posted August 6, 2022 4 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said: Anything to divert any discussion about what an Indy Scotland would be like . Rather pathetic and arrogant too and ironically evidences how long she’s just been beating the same drum She'll be gone after the next GE anyway. If you wanted her gone before then you would just need to send the auditors in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roxy Hearts Posted August 6, 2022 Share Posted August 6, 2022 32 minutes ago, jonesy said: I can get behind the first point. I just don't see things being markedly improved either way. Weirdly, I've felt less bothered about being Scottish since moving back here 8 years ago than I did when I was living abroad for the best part of 10-15 years. It's not about being Scottish Jonesy, it's about having governments of our choice voted in and out by the people who live here. I like certain aspects of the UK but the nature of Westminster governance is so far removed from what it's expected to be that something has to change. IMO. The rhetoric and language used is beyond parody. They forget that a huge chunk of Scotland doesn't agree with them and are treated with disdain and that's a fact! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted August 6, 2022 Share Posted August 6, 2022 1 minute ago, pablo said: She'll be gone after the next GE anyway. If you wanted her gone before then you would just need to send the auditors in. It’s the boasting part of it which riles me . Mind you nowt much else to boast about in Scotland at the present time due to their policies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weakened Offender Posted August 6, 2022 Share Posted August 6, 2022 16 hours ago, Pans Jambo said: Saying what we all knew anyway. Take money from the needy and give it the wealthy. Its the tory way. Theyve stolen the money, changed the laws, asset stripped, lied and now theyre admitting it. Whats wrong with people looking to stay a part of this union? Something wanting about them! You seriously have to question those wishing to remain in the 'union.' They've been gaslighted and brainwashed beyond belief. It's actually quite scary to think that if we did become independent that we would have to drag the idiots along with us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roxy Hearts Posted August 6, 2022 Share Posted August 6, 2022 8 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said: Anything to divert any discussion about what an Indy Scotland would be like . Rather pathetic and arrogant too and ironically evidences how long she’s just been beating the same drum No he won't the stupid fool. A lot of people support her and the SNP more than support him and his awful party and government in Scotland. This is the sort of thing I've been saying. The utter disdain and disrespect is classless but then again it's what the establishment is! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konrad von Carstein Posted August 6, 2022 Share Posted August 6, 2022 (edited) 24 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said: Exactly . Mud is thrown from both Sides . I’m genuinely startled by the snp response to Truss comments when they have basically relied on being “ anti English “ for decades . Utter and complete bull shit! That drum is beaten by folk who want to believe that to be the case, it's not and you flipping well know it. Disappointed that you believe that it's true. Edited August 6, 2022 by Konrad von Carstein Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roxy Hearts Posted August 6, 2022 Share Posted August 6, 2022 3 minutes ago, Konrad von Carstein said: Utter and complete bull shit! That drum is beaten by folk who want to believe that to be the case, it's not and you flipping well know it. Disappointed that you believe that it's true. There's more anti Scottishness in the establishment! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted August 6, 2022 Share Posted August 6, 2022 6 minutes ago, Konrad von Carstein said: Utter and complete bull shit! That drum is beaten by folk who want to believe that to be the case, it's not and you flipping well know it. Disappointed that you believe that it's true. come on there is an element of some anti English sentiment. ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konrad von Carstein Posted August 6, 2022 Share Posted August 6, 2022 (edited) 11 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said: come on there is an element of some anti English sentiment. ? The above isn't what you said though! You said; "they have basically relied on being anti English for decades" That is very different from the slant in the post quoted above. However, I'm not naive enough to believe there aren't indy supporters who are anti-English. You implied it was party/movement policy, you were/are wrong. Edited August 6, 2022 by Konrad von Carstein Words Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Boy Named Crow Posted August 6, 2022 Share Posted August 6, 2022 1 hour ago, JudyJudyJudy said: You must've thought long and hard about that post... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted August 6, 2022 Share Posted August 6, 2022 2 minutes ago, A Boy Named Crow said: You must've thought long and hard about that post... Probably longer and harder than the anti democracy dribble you wrote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Boy Named Crow Posted August 6, 2022 Share Posted August 6, 2022 5 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said: Probably longer and harder than the anti democracy dribble you wrote. Care to refute what I said, or is that picture all you've got? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted August 6, 2022 Share Posted August 6, 2022 1 minute ago, A Boy Named Crow said: Care to refute what I said, or is that picture all you've got? You basically were saying some people are so stupid they dont deserve to get to vote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackie the Cat Posted August 6, 2022 Share Posted August 6, 2022 13 minutes ago, A Boy Named Crow said: You must've thought long and hard about that post... The one and only Prof Sarah Gilbert… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Boy Named Crow Posted August 6, 2022 Share Posted August 6, 2022 Just now, JudyJudyJudy said: You basically were saying some people are so stupid they dont deserve to get to vote. Well, almost. Why do you think people who don't understand what they are voting for should have a vote that carries as much weight as people who do? Why is that good? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roxy Hearts Posted August 6, 2022 Share Posted August 6, 2022 22 minutes ago, jonesy said: Again, can understand your first point and partially agree. Something needs to change. Whether the kind of change envisioned actually materialises, however, is another matter. Almost all politicians are self serving egoists driven by their own prejudices, so doubt you're going to get a bunch of selfless heroes. Anyway, opinions are like arseholes: no one really ever wants to hear anyone else's.... I'm not naive enough to think Scotland hasn't got its fair share of poor politicians. At least they won't show as much disdain for our country and we'd get the opportunity to vote them out. I'm aware it's about opinions and some will agree and disagree like politics in general but you hope to hit the target occasionally! 😉 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roxy Hearts Posted August 6, 2022 Share Posted August 6, 2022 12 minutes ago, jonesy said: I believe that's where our shared understanding may bifurcate, Roxy... I believe the current mob in Holyrood show disdain for the 'people of Scotland' (a bit of a nebulous term, but hey ho) through some of their policies. Not arguing that the mob in London don't either, however. Let's hope that, whatever comes to pass, things move on and improve. There's far too much negativity in the world at the moment. Had to look that up! 🤣. Still think things are better managed as close to source as possible. I think politics may be more attractive in Scotland if we achieve independence as those interested would think they could then make a difference. As we've stated it's about opinions and I'm trying to be optimistic about it. 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusk_Till_Dawn Posted August 6, 2022 Share Posted August 6, 2022 3 hours ago, Shooter McGavin said: I agree, and I think this is something that is lacking on the independence front, there are still plenty of unanswered questions, and fear of the unknown. I think, if independence did go through, there would be a “S***, what now?” moment as there will be a monumental amount of things that need sorted out, as we seen with Brexit it’s not as simple as a “See you later!” I completely agree with your last point. It worries me when people on either side of the debate claim their solution is the fix to everything. It wont be. There will be pro’s and cons on both sides, it’s about weighing them up and choosing the one that’ll yield the best results. Totally agree and for what it’s worth, I think voting for independence is the obvious (and most sensible) move because nothing about Westminster is attractive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konrad von Carstein Posted August 6, 2022 Share Posted August 6, 2022 (edited) 10 minutes ago, jonesy said: Well, Esther McVey isn't that bad... 🥰 She'd need one of these tough. That voice... Edited August 6, 2022 by Konrad von Carstein Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konrad von Carstein Posted August 6, 2022 Share Posted August 6, 2022 4 minutes ago, jonesy said: If I've telt ye once, I've telt ye a hunner times, Konnie: stop posting selfies on JKB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooter McGavin Posted August 6, 2022 Share Posted August 6, 2022 57 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said: Totally agree and for what it’s worth, I think voting for independence is the obvious (and most sensible) move because nothing about Westminster is attractive. I’m leaning towards that myself, to be honest. Westminsters race to the bottom is seriously worrying, and I would rather not hang around to see how far they’ll go. People keep saying we’ll be worse off with independence, yet we currently have people in full-time employment relying on foodbanks, and newly introduced “warm-banks”. It’s like an abusive relationship where the abusive partner tries to convince the other that they’ll be worse off without them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pablo Posted August 6, 2022 Share Posted August 6, 2022 7 minutes ago, Shooter McGavin said: I’m leaning towards that myself, to be honest. Westminsters race to the bottom is seriously worrying, and I would rather not hang around to see how far they’ll go. People keep saying we’ll be worse off with independence, yet we currently have people in full-time employment relying on foodbanks, and newly introduced “warm-banks”. It’s like an abusive relationship where the abusive partner tries to convince the other that they’ll be worse off without them. It's a terrible situation and collectively we should be doing everything possible to eliminate the need for them. But you do know that millions of people rely on food banks in France, in Germany and elsewhere? Westminster being solely responsible for everything wrong in the world today and breaking up the United Kingdom being the solution to everything is a nonsense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mighty Thor Posted August 6, 2022 Share Posted August 6, 2022 4 hours ago, JudyJudyJudy said: Wiped the floor with all comers Cameron, May, Spaffer, mooth, Jackson Carcrash, wee Doogz, jum Murphy, Dugdale, Baillie, Leonard (who?), Baillie for seconds, anus, Willie Rennie All them. Horsed. Absolutely horsed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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