Should Scotland be an independent country?

[Unknown user]

15 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

Are you 9?

 

Worse

 

Edited June 27, 2022 by Smithee

[Ked]

5 hours ago, Smithee said:

 

In fact, northern England got the government they voted for.

So did Scotland.

 

[Unknown user]

35 minutes ago, Ked said:

So did Scotland.

 

You said northern England didn't have the chance to do anything about the government that's ignoring them.

 

They could stop voting for them.

[The Mighty Thor]

4 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

Are you 9?

I thought his IQ was around a solid 5 but if you want to be that generous then fair play to you. 

[i wish jj was my dad]

10 hours ago, Mikey1874 said:

I am open to a consultancy. 

 

If I was running the campaign for independence I would be concentrating on building support and tackling some of the structural issues including working behind the scenes with the EU. 

 

The rush to a Referendum seems more about keeping those who attend the marches from revolting. Not Salmond or Joanna Cherry though. They are persona non grata. 

 

But people have spoken by saying they don't want a Referendum just now. I think Covid recovery should take priority and Scotland can show how it does things better. 

 

And that links to another point about the performance of the Government. I would have thought proving you can run things better would make the case for independence. Apart from benefits where they are seeking to tackle child poverty, no area of Government in Scotland that is doing better than the UK. 

 

I think there is a good case for independence but you need to take the people with you. Build the case. 

 

High risk to even undertake a consultative Referendum. Divisive, irrelevant and can lose influential friends. 

I think you are spot on. I'm not against independence but this is not about what is in the national interest. It's opportunism which is what politics is all about when it comes down to it.

The country would be much better served by focusing on recovery and getting people through the cost of living crisis. However, the SNP  leadership recognise the limited window of opportunity of having a right wing shower of fascists running UKG. A moderate or even semi competent UKG makes 'No' much more likely. 

This is political opportunism which will slow the recovery and divert much needed resources from where it should be focused right now. 

Edited June 27, 2022 by i wish jj was my dad

[Dazo]

16 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

I think you are spot on. I'm not against independence but this is not about what is in the national interest. It's opportunism which is what politics is all about when it comes down to it.

The country would be much better served by focusing on recovery and getting people through the cost of living crisis. However, the SNP  leadership recognise the limited window of opportunity of having a right wing shower of fascists running UKG. A moderate or even semi competent UKG makes 'No' much more likely. 

This is political opportunism which will slow the recovery and divert much needed resources from where it should be focused right now. 

You’ve basically just described the SNP’s existence. Political opportunism that keeps wee Nic in power. They don’t govern Scotland to make Scotland the best it can be. They have half the nation dangling from strings with the promise of some sort of tartan utopia. Fair play to them the dafties are totally convinced. 😂

[Ked]

1 hour ago, Smithee said:

You said northern England didn't have the chance to do anything about the government that's ignoring them.

 

They could stop voting for them.

The difference being as you know they don't have the opportunity to break away .

They also have no devolved powers to level up.

Scotland already has some mechanisms with which to do this.

The current SG holds a fair bit of responsibility in this.

The education attainment gap being an obvious example.

[i wish jj was my dad]

19 minutes ago, Dazo said:

You’ve basically just described the SNP’s existence. Political opportunism that keeps wee Nic in power. They don’t govern Scotland to make Scotland the best it can be. They have half the nation dangling from strings with the promise of some sort of tartan utopia. Fair play to them the dafties are totally convinced. 😂

Maybe so. But they are not bent fascists like that shower of reprobates down in Westminster. And they have a mandate for an independence Referendum. So as much as I have reservations about the way they are going about it, they have every right to do it. And when it comes down to it I would much rather be governed by them than the self-serving pricks who are the real villains in this carcrash movie.

[Dazo]

1 minute ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

Maybe so. But they are not bent fascists like that shower of reprobates down in Westminster. And they have a mandate for an independence Referendum. So as much as I have reservations about the way they are going about it, they have every right to do it. And when it comes down to it I would much rather be governed by them than the self-serving pricks who are the real villains in this carcrash movie.

I’d rather be governed by people who put Scotland first. That is currently no one that is in power either side of the border. 

[Unknown user]

9 minutes ago, Ked said:

The difference being as you know they don't have the opportunity to break away .

They also have no devolved powers to level up.

Scotland already has some mechanisms with which to do this.

The current SG holds a fair bit of responsibility in this.

The education attainment gap being an obvious example.

 

It was Westminster's promise bud, and England's regional politics has nothing to do with us. Just as the performance of the Scottish "government" has nothing to do with the independence debate - although if it did, they'd be MILES ahead of the comparison by any metric.

[Unknown user]

1 minute ago, Dazo said:

I’d rather be governed by people who put Scotland first. That is currently no one that is in power either side of the border. 

Stop voting Tory then Tory boy 

[Unknown user]

Hey @Dazo you haven't got a Fabricant wig by any chance have you?

 

[Boab]

58 minutes ago, Dazo said:

I’d rather be governed by people who put Scotland first. That is currently no one that is in power either side of the border. 

Vote for Indy and you may get that government. Not the SNP either incidentally !

[Dazo]

24 minutes ago, Boab said:

Vote for Indy and you may get that government. Not the SNP either incidentally !

I think we’d get SNP for a fair while after independence boab, certainly a first term. Even if we didn’t the state of the other parties makes for some grim choices. 

[Boab]

2 minutes ago, Dazo said:

I think we’d get SNP for a fair while after independence boab, certainly a first term. Even if we didn’t the state of the other parties makes for some grim choices. 

I agree there would be a bounce,D, but the other parties wouldn't have the crutch of unionism to fall back on. 

An opportunity would arise, IMO, for a progressive party to step up.

[Dazo]

4 minutes ago, Boab said:

I agree there would be a bounce,D, but the other parties wouldn't have the crutch of unionism to fall back on. 

An opportunity would arise, IMO, for a progressive party to step up.

Maybe but how long would we need to wait for that ? Doubt either of us would  see any benefit to independence. There is a lack of talent across all parties in Scotland with most still stuck in the left wing dark ages. 

[manaliveits105]

4 hours ago, The Mighty Thor said:

I thought his IQ was around a solid 5 but if you want to be that generous then fair play to you. 

 

[Konrad von Carstein]

2 hours ago, Dazo said:

Maybe but how long would we need to wait for that ? Doubt either of us would  see any benefit to independence. There is a lack of talent across all parties in Scotland with most still stuck in the left wing dark ages. 

As opposed to the (far) right wing utopia that we currently enjoy?

[manaliveits105]

AN Blackford, the SNP's Westminster leader, has spent copious amounts of political capital attacking his opponents for a variety of sins, including moral turpitude. Boris Johnson is, of course, the ultimate bete noire, justifying, in Mr Blackford’s view, contempt and ultimately banishment to a political Hades. Like a fundamentalist preacher seized with righteous wrath, he casts Mr Johnson as the political Antichrist.

Such moralising brings out Mr Blackford like a rash at the first opportunity for scattering derision, scorn, contempt and moral outrage. He is ever quick to frenetically demand the strongest possible negative sanctions for infringement of the acceptable norms of parliamentary behaviour. The word "liar" is never far from his lips. In this he has been indulged by recently and currently-serving parliamentary officials.

What a different Ian Blackford we have witnessed recently over the Patrick Grady affair … scuttling off from relentless press reporters, executing a U-turn when faced with disclosure of uncomfortable facts in a leaked video revealing his indulgent approach to questionable SNP behaviour and refusing until pressed to offer sympathy and restitution to the victim of Mr Grady’s unwanted advances ("Sturgeon to meet Grady victim as sex pest MP hung out to dry", The Herald, June 24).

 

It is hard to avoid the conclusion that Mr Blackford’s default options include obfuscation, control freakery, cynical pursuit of self-interest and outright hypocrisy.

The sins of his enemies are clearly resident and increasingly prominent in Mr Blackford’s political playbook.

I will indulge myself and permit the use of one of this hero’s favourite taunts … "Not a good look is it …..(Ian)"?

 

Will you resign Mr Blackford ??

 

[manaliveits105]

[Dazo]

1 hour ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

As opposed to the (far) right wing utopia that we currently enjoy?

You think we are currently living in far right times ? 😳

[i wish jj was my dad]

5 hours ago, Dazo said:

I’d rather be governed by people who put Scotland first. That is currently no one that is in power either side of the border. 

Quite a choice. Support a corrupt shower of fascists whose soul objective is to fill satchels of cash for themselves and their pals in the city or another shower of ideology driven opportunists who at least follow the principles of democracy. As much as I don't have a lot of faith in either there are only one set of bad guys in this shitshow and I'm glad I'm not in your camp. 

[i wish jj was my dad]

4 hours ago, Dazo said:

I think we’d get SNP for a fair while after independence boab, certainly a first term. Even if we didn’t the state of the other parties makes for some grim choices. 

But at least we would have a government we have democratically chosen. Unpalatable as it might be for you the SNP have been  skooshing Holyrood and Westminster votes in Scotland for years. And yet we still have Little Englanders with no mandate whatsoever in Scotland running UK PLC with absolutely no interest in the welfare of Scotland (and probably most of the rUK tbh). That's not democracy and the reason why independence is still such a live issue at a time when we should be focusing on recovery and the cost of living. 

[Dazo]

1 minute ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

But at least we would have a government we have democratically chosen. Unpalatable as it might be for you the SNP have been  skooshing Holyrood and Westminster votes in Scotland for years. And yet we still have Little Englanders with no mandate whatsoever in Scotland running UK PLC with absolutely no interest in the welfare of Scotland (and probably most of the rUK tbh). That's not democracy and the reason why independence is still such a live issue at a time when we should be focusing on recovery and the cost of living. 

It is a UK government voted in by the UK electorate. Pretty basic stuff that you seem to struggle with. 
 

SNP skooshing Scotland down the pan but keep getting voted in. 😂

 

Luckily I couldn’t give much of a toss about either government to be honest. Then again I don’t have a chip on my shoulder and sit about blaming some mp’s because my life is so shit. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

11 minutes ago, Dazo said:

It is a UK government voted in by the UK electorate. Pretty basic stuff that you seem to struggle with. 
 

SNP skooshing Scotland down the pan but keep getting voted in. 😂

 

Luckily I couldn’t give much of a toss about either government to be honest. Then again I don’t have a chip on my shoulder and sit about blaming some mp’s because my life is so shit. 

👍

[i wish jj was my dad]

5 minutes ago, Dazo said:

It is a UK government voted in by the UK electorate. Pretty basic stuff that you seem to struggle with. 
 

SNP skooshing Scotland down the pan but keep getting voted in. 😂

 

Luckily I couldn’t give much of a toss about either government to be honest. Then again I don’t have a chip on my shoulder and sit about blaming some mp’s because my life is so shit. 

See that's what I really struggle with in this debate (or lack of it sometimes). 

I don't blame the UKG for all our ills and I certainly do blame the SG for a lot of choices made under devolution but what I do want is to live in the best society possible where people and communities flourish. As it happens my life is pretty comfortable but it pains me to see deliberate choices being made by both governments that undermine the life chances of many in the country. 

Unfortunately, because we have folk like you who don't give a toss we end up with a government of absolute criminals in Westminster and a government playing to an increasing gallery of freedom fighters in Holyrood. 

Meanwhile more and more folk are relying on food banks and won't be able to put the heating on in winter. 

You must be very proud. 👏

[Konrad von Carstein]

1 hour ago, Dazo said:

You think we are currently living in far right times ? 😳

Removal of the right to protest, hoying people to Rwanda, human rights being replaced with a very deficient Raab Bill of Rights, Channel 4, voter ID, lying to parliament, breaking thier own laws, breaking international law and so on and so forth...

 

Not Hitler or Mussolini but this is the hardest right Tory party government we've seen.

[Dazo]

1 hour ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

See that's what I really struggle with in this debate (or lack of it sometimes). 

I don't blame the UKG for all our ills and I certainly do blame the SG for a lot of choices made under devolution but what I do want is to live in the best society possible where people and communities flourish. As it happens my life is pretty comfortable but it pains me to see deliberate choices being made by both governments that undermine the life chances of many in the country. 

Unfortunately, because we have folk like you who don't give a toss we end up with a government of absolute criminals in Westminster and a government playing to an increasing gallery of freedom fighters in Holyrood. 

Meanwhile more and more folk are relying on food banks and won't be able to put the heating on in winter. 

You must be very proud. 👏

Hold on I thought it was the English electorate that was responsible for the government we have ? now you are saying it is my fault 😂

 

You want the country to flourish but back a SG making a dogs dinner of running the country. 😂

 

Only thing I’m proud of you definitely in my camp buddy. 👍

[i wish jj was my dad]

57 minutes ago, Dazo said:

Hold on I thought it was the English electorate that was responsible for the government we have ? now you are saying it is my fault 😂

 

You want the country to flourish but back a SG making a dogs dinner of running the country. 😂

 

Only thing I’m proud of you definitely in my camp buddy. 👍

The red wall element of the English electorate joining the I'm all right Jack society that 'don't care' (your words btw) gave this shower of shysters a mandate to be more extreme and a lot less honest than Thatcher. 

Preferring a much more benevolent if not particularly competent scottish government to them is hardly a ringing endorsement or even backing them. 

 

[i wish jj was my dad]

2 hours ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

Removal of the right to protest, hoying people to Rwanda, human rights being replaced with a very deficient Raab Bill of Rights, Channel 4, voter ID, lying to parliament, breaking thier own laws, breaking international law and so on and so forth...

 

Not Hitler or Mussolini but this is the hardest right Tory party government we've seen.

Some of the strokes you describe are beyond even Thatcher. Hard to believe. 

[Konrad von Carstein]

40 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

Some of the strokes you describe are beyond even Thatcher. Hard to believe. 

For all her (many) faults she was a democrat who respected the parliament.

[i wish jj was my dad]

Just now, Konrad von Carstein said:

For all her (many) faults she was a democrat who respected the parliament.

I've kinda said the same thing myself. Through gritted teeth because I absolutely despise her ideology. 

[Konrad von Carstein]

17 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

I've kinda said the same thing myself. Through gritted teeth because I absolutely despise her ideology. 

Same here, anyone who knows me knows what I think of her...

[i wish jj was my dad]

12 minutes ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

Same here, anyone who knows me knows what I think of her...

Her legacy will outlive many of us I fear and I know first hand how much she still fuels an extreme form of scottish nationalism.  This lot are far more dangerous though. At least she knew when the game was up even if it took a lot of grey suits to persuade her. 

[That thing you do]

3 hours ago, Dazo said:

Hold on I thought it was the English electorate that was responsible for the government we have ? now you are saying it is my fault 😂

 

You want the country to flourish but back a SG making a dogs dinner of running the country. 😂

 

Only thing I’m proud of you definitely in my camp buddy. 👍

To be fair, Devolution is a dogs dinner of powers which amount to having authority with one hand tied behind your back, particularly economically as Scotland cannot borrow. 

The answer is either Gordon Brown Vow style "Full Fiscal Automomy/Devo Max" ie get together for defence, rest is run in Scotland or independence.

The Brown vow style devo max is never ever happening as UK centralise power on London. That leaves mitigating London mess with half powers or Independence, the benefit of which is Scotland can vote and/or kick out a government it doesnt like. Unlike now.

 

 

[ri Alban]

The Queen of England and her heirs up here trying to save here empire. Only Scotland and Wales to go.

[Dazo]

11 hours ago, That thing you do said:

To be fair, Devolution is a dogs dinner of powers which amount to having authority with one hand tied behind your back, particularly economically as Scotland cannot borrow. 

The answer is either Gordon Brown Vow style "Full Fiscal Automomy/Devo Max" ie get together for defence, rest is run in Scotland or independence.

The Brown vow style devo max is never ever happening as UK centralise power on London. That leaves mitigating London mess with half powers or Independence, the benefit of which is Scotland can vote and/or kick out a government it doesnt like. Unlike now.

 

 

Don’t really disagree with that but can you truly say the snp have done the best for Scotland and her people with the powers they do have ? 
 

The answer imo is clearly no. So why should anyone trust her with more power. 

[i wish jj was my dad]

28 minutes ago, Dazo said:

Don’t really disagree with that but can you truly say the snp have done the best for Scotland and her people with the powers they do have ? 
 

The answer imo is clearly no. So why should anyone trust her with more power. 

No. They haven't. It would be a start if they focused on delivering better outcomes rather than just saying 'we have invested £xm in...' which is just shallow, headline chasing pish. But while we have a rabid bunch of right wing gangsters enriching themselves while running UKPLC into the ground independence will always seem like a better option to a lot of people.  All they have to do is look better than the UKG and that hasn't been difficult for the past 12 years. 

[Lord Montpelier]

5 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

No. They haven't. It would be a start if they focused on delivering better outcomes rather than just saying 'we have invested £xm in...' which is just shallow, headline chasing pish. But while we have a rabid bunch of right wing gangsters enriching themselves while running UKPLC into the ground independence will always seem like a better option to a lot of people.  All they have to do is look better than the UKG and that hasn't been difficult for the past 12 years. 

Frustrating isn't it. Basically what we are saying is for different reasons very few of our elected politicians give a toss about the common man, despite their bravado to the contrary. A clean slate is needed in my view with fresh impetus and direction. 

[Dazo]

2 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

No. They haven't. It would be a start if they focused on delivering better outcomes rather than just saying 'we have invested £xm in...' which is just shallow, headline chasing pish. But while we have a rabid bunch of right wing gangsters enriching themselves while running UKPLC into the ground independence will always seem like a better option to a lot of people.  All they have to do is look better than the UKG and that hasn't been difficult for the past 12 years. 

The SG is charged with doing the best for Scotland, it is failing. It’s a shame you exonerate them just because the UK government is currently a show show( I know I’m being generous). That attitude is huge part of Scotlands problem, always looking to blame Westminster. Not a shred of self awareness or accountability within the snp or their supporters. 
 

You know what would turn my head ? A SG that concentrated on making Scotland better, a government that proved how things would be better using the current powers, grabbed more powers and used them in the same way. Then they could turn round and say we’ve shown you what we can do, now imagine independence. 

[i wish jj was my dad]

I'm definitely not exonarating them. They are actively making choices that they don't need to make that will be harmful. They might see the collateral damage as worth it in the long run if it means we never have to endure more Thatchers or Johnsons in future as I think Smiffee alluded to previously. I'm personally not comfortable with that but there is an argument that it is better to rip the plaster off now rather than constantly having to mitigate the damage of austerity, brexit and the absolute carnage the current clowns are creating.

I'd rather the SNP were talking to Labour, liberals, greens and any moderate tories they can find to try and establish a route to take Johnson and his criminals down and get a responsible government in place that will try and navigate us out of this mess we are all in. A government that saw this crisis for what it is and meant it when it said we are all in it together. 

[Dazo]

2 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

I'm definitely not exonarating them. They are actively making choices that they don't need to make that will be harmful. They might see the collateral damage as worth it in the long run if it means we never have to endure more Thatchers or Johnsons in future as I think Smiffee alluded to previously. I'm personally not comfortable with that but there is an argument that it is better to rip the plaster off now rather than constantly having to mitigate the damage of austerity, brexit and the absolute carnage the current clowns are creating.

I'd rather the SNP were talking to Labour, liberals, greens and any moderate tories they can find to try and establish a route to take Johnson and his criminals down and get a responsible government in place that will try and navigate us out of this mess we are all in. A government that saw this crisis for what it is and meant it when it said we are all in it together. 

If you vote for them you are exonerating them and it gives them zero motivation to change. Surely you see that ? You were quick to lay a lot of stuff at my feet yesterday I assume because I have voted Tory in the past. 
 

I agree sometimes it is better to rip the plaster off but surely you have to show yourself capable of dealing with the resulting wound ? Also is this really the best time to rip the plaster off ? Should the SG not have more pressing concerns ? 

[i wish jj was my dad]

4 minutes ago, Dazo said:

If you vote for them you are exonerating them and it gives them zero motivation to change. Surely you see that ? You were quick to lay a lot of stuff at my feet yesterday I assume because I have voted Tory in the past. 
 

I agree sometimes it is better to rip the plaster off but surely you have to show yourself capable of dealing with the resulting wound ? Also is this really the best time to rip the plaster off ? Should the SG not have more pressing concerns ? 

I had a go at you because you said you didn't care not because of who you voted for. I think that was what landed us with these ****s in the first place. Folk knew what they were voting for and still gave them a mandate to do it.

 I vote for who I think serves the public and my values best. Admittedly, at the moment that will be based upon who I think will do least harm. I'm instinctively pro independence because I believe that there is a different mind set to social justice is in Scotland to that of the greater part of the English electorate proven again by brexit and 2019 elections but that doesn't make me pro SNP and I certainly don't want independence at any cost. But I actually place the current bunch of scumbags in Downing Street beneath Thatcher so it makes it hard not to want to breakaway.  

[Dazo]

10 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

I had a go at you because you said you didn't care not because of who you voted for. I think that was what landed us with these ****s in the first place. Folk knew what they were voting for and still gave them a mandate to do it.

 I vote for who I think serves the public and my values best. Admittedly, at the moment that will be based upon who I think will do least harm. I'm instinctively pro independence because I believe that there is a different mind set to social justice is in Scotland to that of the greater part of the English electorate proven again by brexit and 2019 elections but that doesn't make me pro SNP and I certainly don't want independence at any cost. But I actually place the current bunch of scumbags in Downing Street beneath Thatcher so it makes it hard not to want to breakaway.  

I didn’t actually vote Tory in the last election so again how was it my fault ? 😊

 

What is it I don’t care about ? Because I care about Scotland a lot. I just have much time for people sitting about blaming Westminster rather than actually getting on with their life’s and making it better. 

[Ray Gin]

35 minutes ago, Dazo said:

I didn’t actually vote Tory in the last election so again how was it my fault ? 😊

 

Sure you didn't, Mr "I will always be a Tory".

 

 

[Boab]

1 hour ago, Dazo said:

I didn’t actually vote Tory in the last election so again how was it my fault ? 😊

 

What is it I don’t care about ? Because I care about Scotland a lot. I just have much time for people sitting about blaming Westminster rather than actually getting on with their life’s and making it better. 

It's the policies and direction of the government at Westminster that's making getting on and making our lives better, a bit difficult, D !

It's the impact of their policies that's making it very difficult to do so !

[Dazo]

1 hour ago, Ray Gin said:

 

Sure you didn't, Mr "I will always be a Tory".

 

 

Morning Ray hope you are good this morning. Delighted to make your day.  👍

[Dazo]

43 minutes ago, Boab said:

It's the policies and direction of the government at Westminster that's making getting on and making our lives better, a bit difficult, D !

It's the impact of their policies that's making it very difficult to do so !

Are we doing the best we can with what we can control though ? The SG is always sidetracked by keeping the independence carrot dangled. That is their focus and keeps them in power. As we know from this thread people will vote them in no matter how they actually perform as a government. Sorry Boab but that isn’t the kind of people I want in charge of Scotland. 

[Boab]

11 minutes ago, Dazo said:

Are we doing the best we can with what we can control though ? The SG is always sidetracked by keeping the independence carrot dangled. That is their focus and keeps them in power. As we know from this thread people will vote them in no matter how they actually perform as a government. Sorry Boab but that isn’t the kind of people I want in charge of Scotland. 

Regardless of their wish to pursue Indy, all the things that are impacting everyone in the UK, Scotland included, are at Westminster's door.
Can you really blame the SG for the shitshow we find ourselves in at this time ? I find that hard to believe. 

 

[Dazo]

2 minutes ago, Boab said:

Regardless of their wish to pursue Indy, all the things that are impacting everyone in the UK, Scotland included, are at Westminster's door.
Can you really blame the SG for the shitshow we find ourselves in at this time ? I find that hard to believe. 

 

For the current shitshow no, what are they actually doing about it now we are in it though ? And for the decline in health and education that started long before the current mess, absolutely.