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Should Scotland be an independent country?


Alex Kintner

Should Scotland be an independent country?  

505 members have voted

  1. 1. Should Scotland be an independent country?

    • Yes
      313
    • No
      166
    • Don’t know/ Abstain/ Spoil ballot
      26


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1 hour ago, JackLadd said:

 

There wasn't a but Brexit clause seven years ago Kinter. Fact is you LOST and snp have done a horrendous job governing Scotland since, so bad that they are a mile off the convergence criteria needed for Scotland to become a Brussels satellite. So you're selling a precarious start up Scotland on a new shortbread currency that will crash on day one of trading with an 'aye, but wull be oan the euro soon likesay' promise to the flag shagging radges. 


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19 hours ago, i8hibsh said:

 

You simply have no viable repsonse to the whole 'we voted to be as one' do you?  It was democracy.

 

I tell you what is not democracy - going into a hissy fit once the votes are counted and decision made, demand a recount then every day after demand another vote until you get a result that favours you.

 

As for your second paragraph...what are our interests exactly? Surely 'our' interests are pretty much the exact same as Joe Bloggs in Wales, England and N.Ireland?

 

Jobs, security, education, NHS, strong welfare, strong public services, robust and fair legal/justice system, good pensions I imagine are pretty standard across the board.  Not enough 'free shit' for you Smithee?

Nothing is "free" it's all covered and budgeted for. The Scottish Government balance its budget every year.

 

I don't trust Westminster parties in Scotland to put our best interests at heart. That fool McConnell sent money back! That's one of the differences of the SNP SG and a Labour one! 

 

People living in Scotland pay billions in taxes. You think we contribute nothing. We have assets to negotiate with if we accept Westminster's debt of which we have no legal obligation. I think we would accept it and would have to negotiate all financial activities anyway. 

 

Westminster is the problem not people wishing independence. They're are a dishonest bunch of Charlatans with no respect or care for the people of Scotland. 

 

It may be difficult at first but we are an established, ancient nation and instead of looking over our shoulder at Westminster we would accept our responsibilities. People would vote for those most capable of handling them. 

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1 minute ago, Roxy Hearts said:

Nothing is "free" it's all covered and budgeted for. The Scottish Government balance its budget every year.

 

I don't trust Westminster parties in Scotland to put our best interests at heart. That fool McConnell sent money back! That's one of the differences of the SNP SG and a Labour one! 

 

People living in Scotland pay billions in taxes. You think we contribute nothing. We have assets to negotiate with if we accept Westminster's debt of which we have no legal obligation. I think we would accept it and would have to negotiate all financial activities anyway. 

 

Westminster is the problem not people wishing independence. They're are a dishonest bunch of Charlatans with no respect or care for the people of Scotland. 

 

It may be difficult at first but we are an established, ancient nation and instead of looking over our shoulder at Westminster we would accept our responsibilities. People would vote for those most capable of handling them. 

 

 

The SNP are going more over budget with every year tho.

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21 minutes ago, i8hibsh said:

 

 

The SNP are going more over budget with every year tho.

Haven't seen that I8. What's happened to Barnet consequentials! I'm sure Alister Jack has our back or shut down the Scottish office as not required anyway. 

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  • 2 weeks later...
5 hours ago, manaliveits105 said:

The democratic will of less than a third  of the electorate is indeed clear it’s the 66% plus that’s the problem for the separatists and why TVs Nicola is happy to stick and further her career 

 

13 minutes ago, Dazo said:


To simplify it further then I’d say the country is split down the middle. No one wins in such a tight referendum. Small swing either way the majority are unhappy. Easy for me to say I know but it is a nonsense to make such a change with those numbers. 

 

10 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

only a third of the electorate voted snp last time and whilst some of the fence sitters may fall on have an indy ref side some of the snp voters are plastic nationalists and might not want one -  you would only know the will of the Scottish people if you had a vote on whether to have an indy ref - and even then would folk want one to vote yes or want one to put it to bed once and for all and vote NAW:jjockio:

 

to use its the will of the Scottish people at present  is absolute nonsense 

 

Why shouldn't Scotland be independent though?

 

What exactly is your argument for denying the right to elect our own government?

 

What exactly is the argument that justifies a Tory government in Scotland when we haven't voted Tory in over half a century, if you're interested in the will of the Scottish people?

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manaliveits105

Its separatists that are raising the will of the Scottish people bullshit - the last real will of the Scottish people was in 2014 and thankfully they got it right .

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jack D and coke
2 hours ago, Smithee said:

 

 

 

Why shouldn't Scotland be independent though?

 

What exactly is your argument for denying the right to elect our own government?

 

What exactly is the argument that justifies a Tory government in Scotland when we haven't voted Tory in over half a century, if you're interested in the will of the Scottish people?

They’ll trot out the Labour pish. 
If every single person in Scotland voted Labour we could still get a Tory govt. 

That can’t be defended anymore. 

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17 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

Its separatists that are raising the will of the Scottish people bullshit - the last real will of the Scottish people was in 2014 and thankfully they got it right .

 

My mum's 64, she wasn't even born yet the last time Scotland voted tory.

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11 hours ago, Smithee said:

 

 

 

Why shouldn't Scotland be independent though?

 

What exactly is your argument for denying the right to elect our own government?

 

What exactly is the argument that justifies a Tory government in Scotland when we haven't voted Tory in over half a century, if you're interested in the will of the Scottish people?

To answer your 3 questions -

 

No reason why Scotland shouldn't be independent.

We already have the right to elect  our own government in Scotland

Its an SNP government in Scotland, elected via the Holyrood PR system which is a better form of democracy  than the Westminster FPTP system

 

Just sayin'.  😉

 

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16 minutes ago, Lone Striker said:

To answer your 3 questions -

 

No reason why Scotland shouldn't be independent.

We already have the right to elect  our own government in Scotland

Its an SNP government in Scotland, elected via the Holyrood PR system which is a better form of democracy  than the Westminster FPTP system

 

Just sayin'.  😉

 

 

It's not a government, it's a regional assembly with limited powers that the actual government can take back whenever it likes.

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35 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

It's not a government, it's a regional assembly with limited powers that the actual government can take back whenever it likes.

Scotland isn't a  region. You're demeaning our country by calling it a  region.  Bavaria is a region of Germany with its own devolved government.  Its obvious on a map that its a region of a bigger country.   On a map of Britain, Scotland is clearly a country.     Wee Eck was right to rebrand the departments & buildings with the Scottish Government nameplate to give it an appropriate air of authority.

 

Fair enough, it doesn't have all the powers that independence would bring - but NS is choosing not to exercise some powers she does have, and she's also choosing not to "rock the boat"  too much in terms of  raising more income from us Scottish taxpayers which could help substantially to reduce child poverty,  etc.     There's much that could be done under the current arrangement to improve services and reduce poverty in Scotland, but its not being done.      Why ?   Is it because we're not independent ?

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5 hours ago, Lone Striker said:

Scotland isn't a  region. You're demeaning our country by calling it a  region.  Bavaria is a region of Germany with its own devolved government.  Its obvious on a map that its a region of a bigger country.   On a map of Britain, Scotland is clearly a country.     Wee Eck was right to rebrand the departments & buildings with the Scottish Government nameplate to give it an appropriate air of authority.

 

Fair enough, it doesn't have all the powers that independence would bring - but NS is choosing not to exercise some powers she does have, and she's also choosing not to "rock the boat"  too much in terms of  raising more income from us Scottish taxpayers which could help substantially to reduce child poverty,  etc.     There's much that could be done under the current arrangement to improve services and reduce poverty in Scotland, but its not being done.      Why ?   Is it because we're not independent ?

 

It isn't demeaning at all, it's a statement of fact as you acknowledge yourself. Can Holyrood decide to join the EU? Change currency? Does it have a diplomatic presence or a voice at the UN? Does it have guaranteed powers or can Westminster remove them at will? It's a regional assembly, nothing more.

 

This isn't about Sturgeon, or the SNP, or what they do in the regional assembly, this is about why should Scotland not be independent, why should England's electorate be deciding our future (and making a right royal **** of it by the way)?

 

I'm not a fan of hers either but this isn't a binary choice between being dominated by England and Nicola Sturgeon.

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57 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

It isn't demeaning at all, it's a statement of fact as you acknowledge yourself. Can Holyrood decide to join the EU? Change currency? Does it have a diplomatic presence or a voice at the UN? Does it have guaranteed powers or can Westminster remove them at will? It's a regional assembly, nothing more.

 

This isn't about Sturgeon, or the SNP, or what they do in the regional assembly, this is about why should Scotland not be independent, why should England's electorate be deciding our future (and making a right royal **** of it by the way)?

 

I'm not a fan of hers either but this isn't a binary choice between being dominated by England and Nicola Sturgeon.

:greatpost:

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Ainsley Harriott
On 06/12/2021 at 22:46, JackLadd said:

 

Such obvious projection reveals your anxiety, Kinter.  Truth hurts. 

Do you notice he can't actually dispute any of your claims?

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4 hours ago, Smithee said:

 

It isn't demeaning at all, it's a statement of fact as you acknowledge yourself. Can Holyrood decide to join the EU? Change currency? Does it have a diplomatic presence or a voice at the UN? Does it have guaranteed powers or can Westminster remove them at will? It's a regional assembly, nothing more.

 

This isn't about Sturgeon, or the SNP, or what they do in the regional assembly, this is about why should Scotland not be independent, why should England's electorate be deciding our future (and making a right royal **** of it by the way)?

 

I'm not a fan of hers either but this isn't a binary choice between being dominated by England and Nicola Sturgeon.

Well said.

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4 hours ago, Smithee said:

 

It isn't demeaning at all, it's a statement of fact as you acknowledge yourself. Can Holyrood decide to join the EU? Change currency? Does it have a diplomatic presence or a voice at the UN? Does it have guaranteed powers or can Westminster remove them at will? It's a regional assembly, nothing more.

 

This isn't about Sturgeon, or the SNP, or what they do in the regional assembly, this is about why should Scotland not be independent, why should England's electorate be deciding our future (and making a right royal **** of it by the way)?

 

I'm not a fan of hers either but this isn't a binary choice between being dominated by England and Nicola Sturgeon.

Well we'll just have to disagree about the regional thingy.  You're right that Westminster could revoke devolution, but an extreme action like that  would probably provoke such an outcry in Scotland and beyond that it would backfire on the UK in the eyes of the world. It would make  the UK look like Russia.

 

I'm quite laid back about the question of independence, so long as a majority democratically vote for it (or vote against it) - que sera, sera.    At the end of day, politicians love power - and when they get some, they keep wanting more.  It applies to politicians everywhere and to all parties - Holyrood, Westminster, Brussels.     

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1 hour ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

Do you notice he can't actually dispute any of your claims?

But he posted a funny meme thing. Does that not count?

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Ainsley Harriott
1 hour ago, Ron Burgundy said:

But he posted a funny meme thing. Does that not count?

I bet he knows lots of inspiring quotes as well that will convince everyone. Hope over fear, unleash the unicorn etc.

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Konrad von Carstein
8 minutes ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

I bet he knows lots of inspiring quotes as well that will convince everyone. Hope over fear, unleash the unicorn etc.

We're all in this together 👀

 

:lol:

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Yes, it should.

 

But whether you support independence or not, there is a strong argument for borrowing powers. It is, and always has been, nonsensical that investment is only activated when English policymakers decide. 

 

Arguing Scotland must always be in a fiscal strait jacket will increase support for independence imo.

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  • 3 weeks later...
Lone Striker
On 03/12/2021 at 13:51, jack D and coke said:

C43DCE29-044A-4D9D-B9D8-5E3B71146530.jpeg

Which newspaper did that appear in ?   That headline is equally believable in both the  Express and  the National actually.  Although both papers have form in printing dodgy headlines.     

 

Here's a wee scenario to ponder -

 

Despite all the Holyrood parties campaigning for Remain in 2016, over 1m Scots still voted Leave  (which was quite astonishing in itself).       If 330k of them had voted the other way,  the Scotland result would have been more emphatic - and would have resulted in an overall Remain outcome for the UK.   

 

Just imagine the seethe and hatred towards us that would have generated daan saaf.   And what that would have done for the notional polling stats in favour of Indy as a consequence.

 

Just sayin'  :whistling:

 

 

 

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21 minutes ago, Lone Striker said:

Which newspaper did that appear in ?   That headline is equally believable in both the  Express and  the National actually.  Although both papers have form in printing dodgy headlines.     

 

Here's a wee scenario to ponder -

 

Despite all the Holyrood parties campaigning for Remain in 2016, over 1m Scots still voted Leave  (which was quite astonishing in itself).       If 330k of them had voted the other way,  the Scotland result would have been more emphatic - and would have resulted in an overall Remain outcome for the UK.   

 

Just imagine the seethe and hatred towards us that would have generated daan saaf.   And what that would have done for the notional polling stats in favour of Indy as a consequence.

 

Just sayin'  :whistling:

 

 

The results of the Brexit referendum were 17,410,742 Leave, 16,141,241 Remain, which is a difference of 1,269,501. For the overall result to have been different, it would have therefore have needed a half of that difference to vote the other way, i.e. 634,751 Leave voters to vote Remain. That would have produced the result of 16,775,991 Leave, 16,775,992 Remain.

 

So, it leaves me pondering where your figure of 330k comes from.

 

Just sayin'  :whistling:

 

Edited by redjambo
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jack D and coke
33 minutes ago, Lone Striker said:

Which newspaper did that appear in ?   That headline is equally believable in both the  Express and  the National actually.  Although both papers have form in printing dodgy headlines.     

 

Here's a wee scenario to ponder -

 

Despite all the Holyrood parties campaigning for Remain in 2016, over 1m Scots still voted Leave  (which was quite astonishing in itself).       If 330k of them had voted the other way,  the Scotland result would have been more emphatic - and would have resulted in an overall Remain outcome for the UK.   

 

Just imagine the seethe and hatred towards us that would have generated daan saaf.   And what that would have done for the notional polling stats in favour of Indy as a consequence.

 

Just sayin'  :whistling:

 

 

 

If my Aunty had wheels she’d be a bike. 

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Lone Striker
1 hour ago, redjambo said:

 

The results of the Brexit referendum were 17,410,742 Leave, 16,141,241 Remain, which is a difference of 1,269,501. For the overall result to have been different, it would have therefore have needed a half of that difference to vote the other way, i.e. 634,751 Leave voters to vote Remain. That would have produced the result of 16,775,991 Leave, 16,775,992 Remain.

 

So, it leaves me pondering where your figure of 330k comes from.

 

Just sayin'  :whistling:

 

Microsoft Sam reads Funny Windows Error Messages FINAL PART | Computer  humor, Funny messages, Computer error     

😃 Ponder no more.  Looks like I halved it again,  and added a few random numbers for a laugh.   

 

The principle of what I failed to  illustrate correctly is that if Scots had voted in a more realistic proportion to what our political leaders  campaigned for, Scotland  could have swung the overall result and thoroughly annoyed the English Nats who won it (Farage, Boris etc).    Which in turn would probably have seen the Scot Nat  poll numbers rocket.

 

Just sayin'  😃

 

 

 

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jack D and coke
22 minutes ago, Lone Striker said:

Microsoft Sam reads Funny Windows Error Messages FINAL PART | Computer  humor, Funny messages, Computer error     

😃 Ponder no more.  Looks like I halved it again,  and added a few random numbers for a laugh.   

 

The principle of what I failed to  illustrate correctly is that if Scots had voted in a more realistic proportion to what our political leaders  campaigned for, Scotland  could have swung the overall result and thoroughly annoyed the English Nats who won it (Farage, Boris etc).    Which in turn would probably have seen the Scot Nat  poll numbers rocket.

 

Just sayin'  😃

 

 

 

Scotland has loads of unionist fools and self haters though this we know. People that will listen to absaloot roasters, liars and 🤡🤡🤡 like Farage and the Daily Express about how shite everything is here without being under Englands skirt dipping their purse. 
Snivelling turds. 
 

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1 hour ago, Lone Striker said:

Microsoft Sam reads Funny Windows Error Messages FINAL PART | Computer  humor, Funny messages, Computer error     

😃 Ponder no more.  Looks like I halved it again,  and added a few random numbers for a laugh.   

 

The principle of what I failed to  illustrate correctly is that if Scots had voted in a more realistic proportion to what our political leaders  campaigned for, Scotland  could have swung the overall result and thoroughly annoyed the English Nats who won it (Farage, Boris etc).    Which in turn would probably have seen the Scot Nat  poll numbers rocket.

 

Just sayin'  😃

 

 

It would have been an interesting, even fun, scenario. :D Now, where has that time machine of mine got to?

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17 hours ago, Lone Striker said:

Microsoft Sam reads Funny Windows Error Messages FINAL PART | Computer  humor, Funny messages, Computer error     

😃 Ponder no more.  Looks like I halved it again,  and added a few random numbers for a laugh.   

 

The principle of what I failed to  illustrate correctly is that if Scots had voted in a more realistic proportion to what our political leaders  campaigned for, Scotland  could have swung the overall result and thoroughly annoyed the English Nats who won it (Farage, Boris etc).    Which in turn would probably have seen the Scot Nat  poll numbers rocket.

 

Just sayin'  😃

 

 

 

And if EU citizens could vote at euref, like ruk could at Indyref. 

 

 

Just sayin'  😃

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17 hours ago, jack D and coke said:

*Scotland has loads of unionist fools and self haters though this we know. People that will listen to absaloot roasters, liars and 🤡🤡🤡 like Farage and the Daily Express about how shite everything is here without being under Englands skirt dipping their purse. 
Snivelling turds. 
 

Yeah, they're called Brits. Scots voted remain and Yes. 

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@Taffin I see you're bumping yer gums about Scots not voting for independence. We did, but the no vote had ruk and EU citizens voting no. 

 

If it was Scots only , like the euref was UK only, we'd be independent going on 8 years. 👍

Edited by ri Alban
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24 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

@Taffin I see you're bumping yer gums about Scots not voting for independence. We did, but the no vote had ruk and EU citizens voting no. 

 

If it was Scots only , like the euref was UK only, we'd be independent going on 8 years. 👍

 

How are you defining Scots? And how are you defining EU and ruk citizens?

 

We were all EU citizens at the time.

 

Edit: not strictly true, there were of course non-EU citizens too, but the UK citizens were.

 

Edited by Taffin
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jack D and coke
6 hours ago, Taffin said:

 

How are you defining Scots? And how are you defining EU and ruk citizens?

 

We were all EU citizens at the time.

 

Edit: not strictly true, there were of course non-EU citizens too, but the UK citizens were.

 

Scots only voting and we’d be indy yeah that’s true. English people, EU citizens etc swung it to No. 

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26 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

Scots only voting and we’d be indy yeah that’s true. English people, EU citizens etc swung it to No. 

My Polish neighbour voted No because he didnt want us to leave the EU. Hes away home now :lol:

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jack D and coke
1 minute ago, Pans Jambo said:

My Polish neighbour voted No because he didnt want us to leave the EU. Hes away home now :lol:

:lol: mental…

Ive said if I lived in another country, Ireland for example and they had a reunification vote I’d steer clear. It’s got nothing to do with me whether I live there or not and out of respect for Irish people I wouldn’t cast a vote.
Like you say he’s away home he had no skin in the game. 

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1 minute ago, jack D and coke said:

:lol: mental…

Ive said if I lived in another country, Ireland for example and they had a reunification vote I’d steer clear. It’s got nothing to do with me whether I live there or not and out of respect for Irish people I wouldn’t cast a vote.
Like you say he’s away home he had no skin in the game. 

Aye, poor Tomas is probably a coal miner now 😂

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