John souttar

[frankblack]

5 minutes ago, Tennant's 6's said:

Exactly. 

 

Obviously there were mitigating reasons for not extending Souttars' contract whilst he was out injured, but we really need to get to grips with getting the timings right re contracts so that we've got the time to get our prized assets sold, should they not be willing to sign any extension to their contracts. 

 

In saying that, I'd love to see the majority of this squad be kept together for a few seasons, with only minimal change, ie big bids too good to turn down for a Beni or Devlin for eg..

 

All sensible, but we have been bitten a few times by agents who want to run down their players contracts to maximise their own profits from a free transfer deal.  I don't think we have a way around that as some players will happily sit in the reserves and collect their wages.

[Baxfee]

26 minutes ago, Tennant's 6's said:

Exactly. 

 

Obviously there were mitigating reasons for not extending Souttars' contract whilst he was out injured, but we really need to get to grips with getting the timings right re contracts so that we've got the time to get our prized assets sold, should they not be willing to sign any extension to their contracts. 

 

In saying that, I'd love to see the majority of this squad be kept together for a few seasons, with only minimal change, ie big bids too good to turn down for a Beni or Devlin for eg..

Thing is, you would have to start negotiations at 2 yrs left on the contract.  As most long term deals are 3 yrs this doesn’t really make sense. However, player sales needs to be a part of our revenue flow so need to find that balance 

[bobskeldon]

1 hour ago, Beni said:

 

Hearts were contractually obliged to look after him, and if we hadn't then all future potential signings would think twice about coming to a club that chucks injured players on the scrap heap.

It would be nice if he signs an extension, but he owes us nothing.

👍

[jbee647]

Devlin is only on a two year contract, we should probably be looking to extend his and probably Beni’s contract now

or consider selling at the end of the season, at which point you have to ask what’s the point 

Edited November 14, 2021 by jbee647

[FarmerTweedy]

2 hours ago, FTH said:

Not if you listen to Mrs Budge, we have a "football department" which forms part of our business.

That's the same as every other professional football club in the world. They all have some sort of retail, hospitality, catering, marketing, facilities, etc operations that the actual football department (I.e. players, coaches, fitness staff, etc) couldn't operate without. It's a decidedly weird thing to have an issue with. 

[Getintaethem]

1 hour ago, MattyK82 said:

 

Ideally, well over a year ago, we would have been looking to extend Soapys contract. As it transpired, he sustained yet another horrific injury. So the club, not knowing if/when he would recover couldn’t have offered him a deal at that stage. When did he finally come back into the team? Around April? By then, his contract had of course advanced with no extension signed. I can’t blame the club or the player on this occasion.

I wouldn’t have expected the club to hand out a new long term contract just after Soapys most recent serious injury. Nor can I blame him for wanting to keep his options open at this stage of his contract. His injury record for someone of his age isn’t great to say the least. It’s been said repeatedly but a footballers career is very short and he must have it in his mind, if he signs a new contract with us, and sustains another bad injury, will he get another chance to earn a potentially big money move? 
 

Unlike past situations with players contracts running down, here, there is definite mitigation.

 

I hope JS does stay but I won’t be punching a cardboard cut out of him if he leaves 😂🤦🏻‍♂️

Yeah, circumstances were against us with Souttar, the same thing happened with Patterson.

[john thomas]

2 minutes ago, jbee647 said:

Devlin is only on a two year contract, we should probably be looking to extend his and probably Beni’s contract now

Could be Devlin that only wanted a 2 year contract ? Show how good he is and move on ?

Hopefully not and he'll be happy to extend .

No question we have been unfortunate with Souttar's circumstances (Paterson's too) . If he signed an extension now it could cost him a small fortune .

Think , if he's going , it would have to be a substantial fee for us to let him go in January

[BIG ECK]

2 hours ago, Beni said:

 

Hearts were contractually obliged to look after him, and if we hadn't then all future potential signings would think twice about coming to a club that chucks injured players on the scrap heap.

It would be nice if he signs an extension, but he owes us nothing.

Completely disagree with your final gambit.

 

In my opinion he owes us his career.

 

For him to now abandon ship would be  absolutely classless and a big 2 fingers up to the fans and especially the FOH members.

 

Stephen Pressley got hung out to dry for a lot less.

 

 

[frankblack]

1 minute ago, BIG ECK said:

Completely disagree with your final gambit.

 

In my opinion he owes us his career.

 

For him to now abandon ship would be  absolutely classless and a big 2 fingers up to the fans and especially the FOH members.

 

Stephen Pressley got hung out to dry for a lot less.

 

 

 

He won't be the first if it happens.  Its all down to agents whose only loyalty is to their bank manager.

[BIG ECK]

2 hours ago, Des Lynam said:

Why would he sign a one year contract? 
 

He does give us something back every time he pulls on the maroon shirt. 
 

I totally understand his reasons for a move down to England. He’s a really good player but i don’t think we’ll miss him as much as some fear. 

I agree that Soapy is replaceable but the issue for me is we will see little return in the way of ££££.

 

That is the reason I feel he should sign a one year contract. He will leave soon but I want decent money for him and not a pittance.

[Cruyff]

2 hours ago, Beni said:

 

Hearts were contractually obliged to look after him, and if we hadn't then all future potential signings would think twice about coming to a club that chucks injured players on the scrap heap.

It would be nice if he signs an extension, but he owes us nothing.

This. 

[BIG ECK]

8 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

He won't be the first if it happens.  Its all down to agents whose only loyalty is to their bank manager.

Completely agree but it’s morally wrong.

In time he’ll eventually end up at one of the uglies and that’s when everyone will be in agreement on this forum.

[upgotheheads]

18 minutes ago, BIG ECK said:

Completely disagree with your final gambit.

 

In my opinion he owes us his career.

 

For him to now abandon ship would be  absolutely classless and a big 2 fingers up to the fans and especially the FOH members.

 

Stephen Pressley got hung out to dry for a lot less.

 

 

 

Can't agree. Professional footballers are obliged to fulfil their contracts, and so are the club. If Souttar were to injure himself again (god forbid) do you think Hearts or anyone else would offer him a contract out of sentiment? Celtic notoriously dumped legendary players like Jimmy Johnstone and Danny McGrain, Hearts asked Willie Bauld to pay for his testimonial ball and he stayed away for years in disgust. 

I hope that JS signs and we are able to offer him an acceptable contract but professional players have a short career and they're entitled to make the best of it.

[savage]

I think clubs are paying fees less and less.  Look at the players PSG picked up for free this year.  

 

Decent youngsters will attract fees but i think most players now look for free transfers to maximise signing on fee and bigger wages

[No Idle Talk]

1 hour ago, jbee647 said:

Devlin is only on a two year contract, we should probably be looking to extend his and probably Beni’s contract now

or consider selling at the end of the season, at which point you have to ask what’s the point 

 

*sigh*

 

I'm not sighing at you, it is just that the content of your post highlights a depressing reality that you face when you follow a club like Hearts.

 

The reality is that it is very difficult to get good players in the first instance. We've all seen that over the last few years. Then when you do eventually sign a few good players you start to dream about keeping those players together, adding another couple to the mix, and building a team that you can really achieve something with. But it is like chasing rainbows. The good players always seem to move on before the next good ones arrive. 

 

If we sign a player like Beni for example, it is usually going to be on something like a two or a three year contract. Let's say it's three. So the player comes in and plays brilliantly in his first season. Now he only has two years left on that contract. As your post says, it's at that point you either need to get the player to extend their contract or you need to start thinking about selling him before he enters the last year of his contract. Rightly or wrongly, as a fan, it does leave you feeling a bit like 'what's the point?'. The only real solution is to sign the player to a four or a five year contract when you buy them. But that is difficult for two reasons:

 

1. The player may not want to sign that long of a contract with Hearts

2. You could sign a player to a five year deal who turns out to be crap. Not a good situation.

 

I feel like it is incredibly difficult for any club in Scotland outside of the OF to build a team with a nucleus of good players and keep that nucleus together. As soon as a player starts standing out for a club like Hearts, the rumours begin about them moving to England or the Old Firm. It's a really frustrating thing. In an ideal world we would be able to assemble a squad with a core of really good players and we could sell them off maybe one or two at a time, when the time is right, then replace them with some of the money we receive. It never seems to pan out that way though. 

 

The even worse scenario is when you get a really good player on board and then lose them for nothing. Which is sadly what looks like happening here.

 

Ach I've just gone and bummed myself out now. Sorry folks. 

[Rattatooi]

Bloody hell, does he not have a family. Course he has to look out for himself. Can you imagine signing with us for the next three years on a fifth of what he could have had then getting the career ending injury - sorry bambino, daddy has run out of money because I put loyalty to a football club before you..!!

 

If he signs with us I’ll be delighted but if he gets a great offer from another club I would tell him to take it and wish him all the best.

[JamboAl]

8 minutes ago, Rattatooi said:

Bloody hell, does he not have a family. Course he has to look out for himself. Can you imagine signing with us for the next three years on a fifth of what he could have had then getting the career ending injury - sorry bambino, daddy has run out of money because I put loyalty to a football club before you..!!

 

If he signs with us I’ll be delighted but if he gets a great offer from another club I would tell him to take it and wish him all the best.

As I said earlier

If he gets injured between now and signing a new contract for anyone, and Hearts withdraw their offer, he could be left on his arse and say - sorry bambino I would not have run out of money if I had signed that Hearts contract. 

Or would he expect Hearts to show loyalty to him?

Edited November 14, 2021 by JamboAl

[kila]

2 minutes ago, JamboAl said:

As I said earlier

If he gets injured between now and signing a new contract for anyone, and Hearts withdraw their offer, he could be left on his arse and say - sorry bambino I would not have run out of money if I had signed that Hearts contract. 

Or would he expect Hearts to show loyalty to him?

 

Souttar is free to wind his contract down but if doesn’t sign for anyone in Jan and he gets another injury taking him out the season then he’s on his arse with no shop window.

 

It’s a risk but I wouldn’t blame him for chasing money in what is a short career. 

[JamboAl]

Just now, jonnothejambo said:

I haven't read through all the thread so this may have been stated previously but ideally Souttar would sign a new deal with a decent sell on clause with the condition that if a certain valuation was met by a club wanting him then he would free to talk to them. 

 

Or is that too simplistic ?

No, it's not too simplistic.

It would be the ideal half way house in this case.

[Guess The Crowd]

2 minutes ago, JamboAl said:

No, it's not too simplistic.

It would be the ideal half way house in this case.

 

Agree. Simply can’t see the downside there. For any party. 

[busbyfth]

9 minutes ago, jonnothejambo said:

I haven't read through all the thread so this may have been stated previously but ideally Souttar would sign a new deal with a decent sell on clause with the condition that if a certain valuation was met by a club wanting him then he would free to talk to them. 

 

Or is that too simplistic ?

its simply put.....And spot on !!!....its fair to both parties

[No Idle Talk]

7 minutes ago, jonnothejambo said:

I haven't read through all the thread so this may have been stated previously but ideally Souttar would sign a new deal with a decent sell on clause with the condition that if a certain valuation was met by a club wanting him then he would free to talk to them. 

 

Or is that too simplistic ?

 

That seems reasonable to me. The debate then becomes about what value that clause would be triggered at. I heard someone on a podcast recently suggest a figure in the £500k-750k range and if I was Hearts I would absolutely not go for that. 

[Nookie Bear]

25 minutes ago, Rattatooi said:

Bloody hell, does he not have a family. Course he has to look out for himself. Can you imagine signing with us for the next three years on a fifth of what he could have had then getting the career ending injury - sorry bambino, daddy has run out of money because I put loyalty to a football club before you..!!

 

If he signs with us I’ll be delighted but if he gets a great offer from another club I would tell him to take it and wish him all the best.

Another 3 years of a 6-figure annual salary with us? Doubt the kid will be needing Marcus Rashford to send him a meal anytime soon. 

[SUTOL]

18 minutes ago, JamboAl said:

As I said earlier

If he gets injured between now and signing a new contract for anyone, and Hearts withdraw their offer, he could be left on his arse and say - sorry bambino I would not have run out of money if I had signed that Hearts contract. 

Or would he expect Hearts to show loyalty to him?

 

 

I suppose a lot of what happens (in that situation) will depend on the fine print in his and Hearts medical insurance policies.  

 

[chrystaf]

49 minutes ago, No Idle Talk said:

 

*sigh*

 

I'm not sighing at you, it is just that the content of your post highlights a depressing reality that you face when you follow a club like Hearts.

 

The reality is that it is very difficult to get good players in the first instance. We've all seen that over the last few years. Then when you do eventually sign a few good players you start to dream about keeping those players together, adding another couple to the mix, and building a team that you can really achieve something with. But it is like chasing rainbows. The good players always seem to move on before the next good ones arrive. 

 

If we sign a player like Beni for example, it is usually going to be on something like a two or a three year contract. Let's say it's three. So the player comes in and plays brilliantly in his first season. Now he only has two years left on that contract. As your post says, it's at that point you either need to get the player to extend their contract or you need to start thinking about selling him before he enters the last year of his contract. Rightly or wrongly, as a fan, it does leave you feeling a bit like 'what's the point?'. The only real solution is to sign the player to a four or a five year contract when you buy them. But that is difficult for two reasons:

 

1. The player may not want to sign that long of a contract with Hearts

2. You could sign a player to a five year deal who turns out to be crap. Not a good situation.

 

I feel like it is incredibly difficult for any club in Scotland outside of the OF to build a team with a nucleus of good players and keep that nucleus together. As soon as a player starts standing out for a club like Hearts, the rumours begin about them moving to England or the Old Firm. It's a really frustrating thing. In an ideal world we would be able to assemble a squad with a core of really good players and we could sell them off maybe one or two at a time, when the time is right, then replace them with some of the money we receive. It never seems to pan out that way though. 

 

The even worse scenario is when you get a really good player on board and then lose them for nothing. Which is sadly what looks like happening here.

 

Ach I've just gone and bummed myself out now. Sorry folks. 

Agree, that's the sad fact of life.  but it can be done....St Johnstone for example won two trophies, albeit that they peaked on doing so.  

[fabienleclerq]

2 hours ago, BIG ECK said:

Completely disagree with your final gambit.

 

In my opinion he owes us his career.

 

For him to now abandon ship would be  absolutely classless and a big 2 fingers up to the fans and especially the FOH members.

 

Stephen Pressley got hung out to dry for a lot less.

 

 

This. 

 

I don't get the "he owes us nothing brigade". Us being contractually obliged to look after him isn't the full picture for me. I think he owes us, if I was off my work for as long I'd feel like I was due some sort of loyalty. 

[frankblack]

3 minutes ago, fabienleclerq said:

This. 

 

I don't get the "he owes us nothing brigade". Us being contractually obliged to look after him isn't the full picture for me. I think he owes us, if I was off my work for as long I'd feel like I was due some sort of loyalty. 

 

Do you have to sign a contract for your job?  A lot do in the likes of the financial sector, for example.

Would that stop you leaving for a better job and more money out of loyalty?

[Rattatooi]

30 minutes ago, JamboAl said:

As I said earlier

If he gets injured between now and signing a new contract for anyone, and Hearts withdraw their offer, he could be left on his arse and say - sorry bambino I would not have run out of money if I had signed that Hearts contract. 

Or would he expect Hearts to show loyalty to him?

Problem is, the offers he will be aware of are not to buy him for x million then pay him a much larger salary. Chances are the offers are only there because he will be a free agent. It’s a very big gamble you are suggesting he takes where there is (in my opinion) a much smaller gamble in signing on a free. IF there are any real offers on the table.

 

I hope the “offers” are all just paper talk though and I hope he stays because we are the only real offer he has.

[Naisys Tackle]

4 minutes ago, Rattatooi said:

Problem is, the offers he will be aware of are not to buy him for x million then pay him a much larger salary. Chances are the offers are only there because he will be a free agent. It’s a very big gamble you are suggesting he takes where there is (in my opinion) a much smaller gamble in signing on a free. IF there are any real offers on the table.

 

I hope the “offers” are all just paper talk though and I hope he stays because we are the only real offer he has.

To be fair a couple of clubs May panic come January and need a couple of players.  Disaster would be pre-contract with Rangers or Celtic.

[Sid]

6 hours ago, FTH said:

Not if you listen to Mrs Budge, we have a "football department" which forms part of our business.

Back to that old psh. 
I think we would all agree, we have the best “football department” Hearts have had for a considerable time. Squad excellent (including a certain Craig Gordon), trimmed down and strength in depth. Cover in most areas.  Great director of football, playing attractive football, third in league, injuries manageable. 
what more do you want from this department? 
What’s wrong?  Did she nick your play piece in the playground?  

[Cruyff]

3 hours ago, BIG ECK said:

Completely disagree with your final gambit.

 

In my opinion he owes us his career.

 

For him to now abandon ship would be  absolutely classless and a big 2 fingers up to the fans and especially the FOH members.

 

Stephen Pressley got hung out to dry for a lot less.

 

 

Hearts forced him back too early and he nearly had to retire because of it. He owes us nothing. 

[fabienleclerq]

1 hour ago, frankblack said:

 

Do you have to sign a contract for your job?  A lot do in the likes of the financial sector, for example.

Would that stop you leaving for a better job and more money out of loyalty?

I have a signed contract, I understand that gives me x amount of sick pay etc. 

 

I don't blame people leaving for more money, at the same time it's not as black and white as some folk make it. I'm of the opinion we've given JS a lot, possibly more than he's gave back and he's due us. A contract with a release clause and an agreement we won't be awkward etc. Just my take on it. 

[wavydavy]

51 minutes ago, Cruyff said:

Hearts forced him back too early and he nearly had to retire because of it. He owes us nothing. 

 

Correction there. The Manager at the time maybe encouraged him back too soon however the final say usually rests with the player.

 

Although some Managers are more forceful than others at convincing players to play when they possibly are;nt ready.

[wavydavy]

1 hour ago, Robbies Tackle said:

To be fair a couple of clubs May panic come January and need a couple of players.  Disaster would be pre-contract with Rangers or Celtic.

 

Not sure about Celtic but with Rangers about to appoint a new coach then he might not fancy Souttar depending on who it is of course.

[Cruyff]

29 minutes ago, wavydavy said:

 

Correction there. The Manager at the time maybe encouraged him back too soon however the final say usually rests with the player.

 

Although some Managers are more forceful than others at convincing players to play when they possibly are;nt ready.

He did say something similar to that in a recent interview. 

[jr ewing]

Keep until the end of the season. Win the league,  let him move on, becomes a legend 👏 

[wavydavy]

22 minutes ago, Cruyff said:

He did say something similar to that in a recent interview. 

 

Souttar or Levein ?

[Cruyff]

10 minutes ago, wavydavy said:

 

Souttar or Levein ?

Souttar. 

[wavydavy]

2 minutes ago, Cruyff said:

Souttar. 

 

👍

[Naisys Tackle]

1 hour ago, wavydavy said:

 

Not sure about Celtic but with Rangers about to appoint a new coach then he might not fancy Souttar depending on who it is of course.

The opposite may also happen tho. Especially if they lose Goldson. 

[Tom Hardy’s Dug]

If Stoke want him -sadly due to his brother’s injury - we can hold out for a bit of a ransom payment in January if it comes to that.

 

They now have a need. They have the money. Pay up.

Edited November 14, 2021 by Tom Hardy’s Dug

[EIEIO]

12 minutes ago, Tom Hardy’s Dug said:

If Stoke want him -sadly due to his brother’s injury - we can hold out for a bit of a ransom payment in January if it comes to that.

 

They now have a need. They have the money. Pay up.

True, every cloud ....

Stoke like others are pushing hard for promotion to the EPL , most likely via the lottery of the play offs given Bournemouth and Fulham look like stick ons for the automatic promotion places.

[JamboAl]

2 hours ago, wavydavy said:

 

Correction there. The Manager at the time maybe encouraged him back too soon however the final say usually rests with the player.

 

Although some Managers are more forceful than others at convincing players to play when they possibly are;nt ready.

I agree with what you say and add that the medical/physio staff would surely have input.

Only with hindsight can we say a come back was too early.

[TyphoonJambo]

17 minutes ago, JamboAl said:

I agree with what you say and add that the medical/physio staff would surely have input.

Only with hindsight can we say a come back was too early.

If I remember correctly his double rupture occurred on a very innocuous manner. No-one near him,jumps to head a ball,under no real pressure,falls to the ground,double achilles rupture. No-one seen that coming. Sometimes lifes just a *****.

[Guest ToqueJambo]

9 hours ago, Getintaethem said:

  Going forward we have to be a bit smarter.  We’re too late with Souttar’s contract.  Take Beni and Devlin for example, both have signed three year deals.  Next January we should be offering them new contracts, if they don’t accept with a year and a half left to go, then we should sell them at the end of next season while they still have a year left (if we feel that any offers are acceptable and of greater value than keeping them the extra season).

 

To be fair we originally signed him on a 3.5 year contract and convinced him to sign a 3 year (?) extension when he was attracting interest. This is definitely a case of us getting unlucky (along with him obviously).

 

This has happened before with us. Driver was on a contract and attracting interest when he got injured, same with Calum P.

 

Edited November 14, 2021 by ToqueJambo

[Tom Hardy’s Dug]

Re some earlier comments I think we were guilty of rushing back key players due to the amount of injuries we had.

 

Haring, Berra and Souttar the key ones.

 

I think we were also guilty of playing players with niggles and causing injuries.

 

Haring, Washington and Smith.

 

So let’s not pretend we are saint like in all of this, and it’s nonsense to suggest that players put under a bit of pressure to play would always say “sorry boss I can’t play”.  It’s still fairly old school employment 

[Guest ToqueJambo]

1 minute ago, Tom Hardy’s Dug said:

Re some earlier comments I think we were guilty of rushing back key players due to the amount of injuries we had.

 

Haring, Berra and Souttar the key ones.

 

I think we were also guilty of playing players with niggles and causing injuries.

 

Haring, Washington and Smith.

 

So let’s not pretend we are saint like in all of this, and it’s nonsense to suggest that players put under a bit of pressure to play would always say “sorry boss I can’t play”.  It’s still fairly old school employment 

 

Can't imagine how overloaded our medical dept was for a year or two back then. We were definitely guilty of signing too many players with niggles or not match fit which didn't help, even giving someone like Aidy White who was basically out of the game through injury a place to build fitness for a comeback which must have taken up Physio time and resources.

 

What is noticeable about recruitment this time is we signed fit players. Obviously some needed to build fitness but only one player had injury doubts surrounding them - Ginnelly - so you'd assume staff could focus on him to get him back instead of being spread too thin.

[EIEIO]

3 minutes ago, Tom Hardy’s Dug said:

Re some earlier comments I think we were guilty of rushing back key players due to the amount of injuries we had.

 

Haring, Berra and Souttar the key ones.

 

I think we were also guilty of playing players with niggles and causing injuries.

 

Haring, Washington and Smith.

 

So let’s not pretend we are saint like in all of this, and it’s nonsense to suggest that players put under a bit of pressure to play would always say “sorry boss I can’t play”.  It’s still fairly old school employment 

You forgot Uche playing with a broken foot "he's got a low pain threshold for such a big guy" etc etc.. Our medical department has let the players down in the past. Souttar seems to have recovered well though.

[Rocky jamboa]

It's just our luck that we give a shorter contract to guys that turn out to be good, like Devlin and Souttar, but then get our fingers burnt giving longer contracts to duds like Martin and Damour! It must be so hard for the club to know what length of contract to offer.

[Tom Hardy’s Dug]

37 minutes ago, EIEIO said:

You forgot Uche playing with a broken foot "he's got a low pain threshold for such a big guy" etc etc.. Our medical department has let the players down in the past. Souttar seems to have recovered well though.

Good point. Was just properly coming onto a game as well 

Edited November 14, 2021 by Tom Hardy’s Dug