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Climate Change. Too Late???


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A Boy Named Crow
On 29/10/2021 at 05:27, FinnBarr Saunders said:

Evidence was found that the Romans had vineyards around Hadrians Wall which means temps must have been higher then. So, what did they blame climate change on then, too much horse shite?

 

It's inconclusive on the Chateau Neuf du Sunderland front.  It seems the Romans may have tried it,  but didn't get great results. 

 

https://www.winegb.co.uk/history-of-the-industry/

 

People will argue till the cows come home about whether climate change is real, and if it is whether or not it is our fault. Most folk won't be qualified to pontificate,  but will do so anyway based on their political leanings, economic self interest etc. 

 

What is objectively true is that clean air is more pleasant and better for you than polluted air - anyone who's spent time in one of the smog covered cities in Asia knows this. 

 

It is also objectively true that fossil fuels will one day run out,  so we DO need an alternative. 

 

If we can move to renewable,  clean energy sources, we'd have better air to breathe and better long term energy security. If it also made the climate more stable, that's a bonus.

 

As far as I can tell,  it's the vested interests driven by money from big oil etc that are holding back progress in this area.  It's a no brainer... unless you make your money from creating pollution or your political party is beholden to those that do!

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2 hours ago, A Boy Named Crow said:

 

It's inconclusive on the Chateau Neuf du Sunderland front.  It seems the Romans may have tried it,  but didn't get great results. 

 

https://www.winegb.co.uk/history-of-the-industry/

 

People will argue till the cows come home about whether climate change is real, and if it is whether or not it is our fault. Most folk won't be qualified to pontificate,  but will do so anyway based on their political leanings, economic self interest etc. 

 

What is objectively true is that clean air is more pleasant and better for you than polluted air - anyone who's spent time in one of the smog covered cities in Asia knows this. 

 

It is also objectively true that fossil fuels will one day run out,  so we DO need an alternative. 

 

If we can move to renewable,  clean energy sources, we'd have better air to breathe and better long term energy security. If it also made the climate more stable, that's a bonus.

 

As far as I can tell,  it's the vested interests driven by money from big oil etc that are holding back progress in this area.  It's a no brainer... unless you make your money from creating pollution or your political party is beholden to those that do!

I work in oil and gas but am not anywhere close to what you would call a climate change denier. I am all for the switch to renewables even though it means probably losing my job (such is life).

 

The issue isn't just energey though. That only solves half the problem. Crude / fossil fuels are used to make (or at least part make) almost every product we use in modern day life. I can't see how switching to wind power will provide rubber for our elcetric bikes or cars and the clothes on our back.

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Shooter McGavin

I do think it’s too late tbh.

 

I can recycle jars and cans for the rest of my life, but if theres factories spewing their s**** into the atmosphere 24/7 and millionaires travelling everywhere by private jet,

 

what’s a few recycled jars and cans really going to do?

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24 minutes ago, Shooter McGavin said:

I do think it’s too late tbh.

 

I can recycle jars and cans for the rest of my life, but if theres factories spewing their s**** into the atmosphere 24/7 and millionaires travelling everywhere by private jet,

 

what’s a few recycled jars and cans really going to do?


It is pure human arrogance to think the planet is completely ****ed tbh. The planet survived worse than humans and will be here long after we have destroyed ourselves housing what ever life forms beat adapt to the climate we leave behind. Earth will recover and almost all traces of human activity will disappear over time. 

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Jambo-Jimbo
4 hours ago, jambo89 said:

I work in oil and gas but am not anywhere close to what you would call a climate change denier. I am all for the switch to renewables even though it means probably losing my job (such is life).

 

The issue isn't just energey though. That only solves half the problem. Crude / fossil fuels are used to make (or at least part make) almost every product we use in modern day life. I can't see how switching to wind power will provide rubber for our elcetric bikes or cars and the clothes on our back.

 

That is something I think which gets completely forgotten about in our push to stop using oil/fossil fuels, the sheer number of everyday objects in everybody's houses that have been made from oil.  A complete re-think into how most products are made would be needed, but would the alternative be any better for the environment than what it is just now.

 

Sky News did a piece from Chile and it was a real eye opener, about the damage to the earth by going 'green' was really doing and that there is a huge price to pay by going 'green'.

https://news.sky.com/story/mineral-rush-how-chiles-mega-mines-are-critical-to-our-electric-future-12643616

 

Edited by Jambo-Jimbo
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To my knowledge, if we found a magic spell that could stop it at the current state overnight, it could still take centuries to thousands of years to return it to a pre industrial level.

 

Though I don't know if that aspect of it may even be an aim at this point, a pre industrial level. But long term it should be.

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36 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

Sky News did a piece from Chile and it was a real eye opener, about the damage to the earth by going 'green' was really doing and that there is a huge price to pay by going 'green'.

https://news.sky.com/story/mineral-rush-how-chiles-mega-mines-are-critical-to-our-electric-future-12643616

 

 

I don't think the points that article uses to suggest green energy creates any significant further ecological damage holds any water in the big picture. It's talking about the mining of copper and various other minerals to build green energy systems.

 

These are materials that would be mined in vast amounts even if there were no construction of green energy facilities. Anything a switch to green might add is a drop in the ocean in comparison to the global mining of these materials that would still be taking place even without a green energy drive.

 

And in comparison to what fossil fuels do it's so miniscule as to be irrelevant. 

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It is too late.

 

What China and India are doing and then you have politicians like in Tory leadership battle in compete denial. 

 

Just need to limit it and agree the ways to move people. 

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Jambo-Jimbo
11 minutes ago, JFK-1 said:

 

I don't think the points that article uses to suggest green energy creates any significant further ecological damage holds any water in the big picture. It's talking about the mining of copper and various other minerals to build green energy systems.

 

These are materials that would be mined in vast amounts even if there were no construction of green energy facilities. Anything a switch to green might add is a drop in the ocean in comparison to the global mining of these materials that would still be taking place even without a green energy drive.

 

And in comparison to what fossil fuels do it's so miniscule as to be irrelevant. 

 

It's all irrelevant anyway, because if the earth's population keeps on growing at the rate it is, then it's curtains for the human race.

As for the planet, she'll be fine, she was here long before humans came about and she'll be here long long after we're gone.

 

Human overpopulation is what will eventually kill off the human race, climate change will play a major part in that, because as there becomes ever more people on the plant, that puts more and more pressure on the resources of the plant and in turn accelerates climate change, the both are interconnected imo.

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Jambo-Jimbo
50 minutes ago, jonesy said:

Essentially there are too many of us, and our very nature demands that we want more stuff. 
 

 

 

31 minutes ago, escobri said:

The earth is fine, its the people that are fecked.

 

:spoton:

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1 hour ago, AlimOzturk said:


It is pure human arrogance to think the planet is completely ****ed tbh. The planet survived worse than humans and will be here long after we have destroyed ourselves housing what ever life forms beat adapt to the climate we leave behind. Earth will recover and almost all traces of human activity will disappear over time. 

Spot on.

The conceit of humans is staggering.

” The planet’s dying….! “

No it ain’t !

As you say, it will spin merrily on for millions of years, long after we’ve ****ed off !

 

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All roads lead to Gorgie

It does seem to be spiraling out of hand as far as temperatures are concerned although living through another Scottish summer you would be hard pressed to notice. It is too late to stop it but a whole lot of people on the planet have to try to do their bit and stop voting for right wing politicians who can't see passed their own wallets and vested interests. 

What is even more worrying is the decline in pollenating insects plus tree diseases and peat bog decline which takes away nature's way of holding Co2

 

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1 hour ago, All roads lead to Gorgie said:

It does seem to be spiraling out of hand as far as temperatures are concerned although living through another Scottish summer you would be hard pressed to notice. It is too late to stop it but a whole lot of people on the planet have to try to do their bit and stop voting for right wing politicians who can't see passed their own wallets and vested interests. 

What is even more worrying is the decline in pollenating insects plus tree diseases and peat bog decline which takes away nature's way of holding Co2

 

 

Until the biggest polluters in China, India, etc are forced to take action there is absolutely **** all we can do here in the UK as country with a mere 60m population.

 

Its really that simple.

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All roads lead to Gorgie
2 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Until the biggest polluters in China, India, etc are forced to take action there is absolutely **** all we can do here in the UK as country with a mere 60m population.

 

Its really that simple.

Our never ending demand for cheap tech, metals and so on in the west does nothing to discourage China, India and others from polluting on a larger and larger scale. Changing that will be unlikely any time soon. 

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It's not about the planet imo, it's about humans.

 

Climate change is natural, but we're accelerating it. All we're doing in bringing our demise sooner, the planet will endure long after we're gone I think. I don't get people who use past extinction events as some kind of argument against taking action, they're basically just saying we'll die anyway...true, but why expedite that day?!? 

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All roads lead to Gorgie

It feels like the human race is hell bent on destroying itself. Not just by allowing known greenhouse gas emissions to  increase when we know it is stoking up serious issues for future generations but then there's other things too like alloying despotic leaders to start futile wars. Complacency in health or some might suggest" lab security "led to Covid 19 and who knows what else is around the corner. 

You can see by that I'm not an optimist :sadrobbo:

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6 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

Until the biggest polluters in China, India, etc are forced to take action there is absolutely **** all we can do here in the UK as country with a mere 60m population.

 

Its really that simple.

 

Yup. 

 

Serious action isn't kicking the man in the street, its going after the major offenders. China, India, America. Wealthy countries could be stepping in with offers to help convert as much of their industrial output as possible to green alternatives. If the carrot doesn't work then start working on big environmental taxes to levy on goods imported from China and the like. 

 

Banning private air travel, or at least taxing it into oblivion to de-incentivise use of it would be an idea too. Sick of seeing celebrities telling average joe they're not doing enough before jumping in their private jet. Its insulting, tone deaf and painfully hypocritical. 

 

Any marginal impact gained on these shores is irradicated by the Americans, China, etc. in seconds. 

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4 minutes ago, Irufushi said:

Embrace this weather. It’s magnificent. Be pishing down for 6 months come October. 

Exactly. Weather in this country is miserable. Wee bit sunshine and you've got arseholes in the media making out its the end of the world. People pay good money to go away for those kind of heat, enjoy it for the short time it's in Scotland.

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Dennis Reynolds
5 minutes ago, Sir Craig Gordon said:

Exactly. Weather in this country is miserable. Wee bit sunshine and you've got arseholes in the media making out its the end of the world. People pay good money to go away for those kind of heat, enjoy it for the short time it's in Scotland.

 

They usually go away to air conditioned apartments with access to a pool. Not sitting in an office built to keep heat in. It's really not comparable.

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4 minutes ago, Dennis Reynolds said:

 

They usually go away to air conditioned apartments with access to a pool. Not sitting in an office built to keep heat in. It's really not comparable.

Open windows, chuck the fans on, relax dress code, drink water. Im sure people will adapt for a few days.

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J.T.F.Robertson
11 hours ago, Shooter McGavin said:

I do think it's too late tbh.

 

I can recycle jars and cans for the rest of my life, but if theres factories spewing their s**** into the atmosphere 24/7 and millionaires travelling everywhere by private jet,

 

what’s a few recycled jars and cans really going to do?

 

 

David (and I) agree.

 

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2 hours ago, OTT said:

 

Yup. 

 

Serious action isn't kicking the man in the street, its going after the major offenders. China, India, America. Wealthy countries could be stepping in with offers to help convert as much of their industrial output as possible to green alternatives. If the carrot doesn't work then start working on big environmental taxes to levy on goods imported from China and the like. 

 

Banning private air travel, or at least taxing it into oblivion to de-incentivise use of it would be an idea too. Sick of seeing celebrities telling average joe they're not doing enough before jumping in their private jet. Its insulting, tone deaf and painfully hypocritical. 

 

Any marginal impact gained on these shores is irradicated by the Americans, China, etc. in seconds. 

Totally agree re banning, or over taxing, private air travel. However, it will never happen as the tories and Labour will want to look after their rich pals.

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I think we're past the tipping point and it's going to accelerate in all sorts of horrible ways.

If we continue like this then shortly we are going to be looking at global crop failure, vast sea life extinction, uninhabitable regions,  mass population displacement and huge civil unrest.

The situation needs all governments to throw everything at minimising this as much as possible with the view that a mass extinction threat is coming.

Zero confidence this will happen and I do fear for the kind of world my daughter is going to grow up in.

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51 minutes ago, Sir Craig Gordon said:

Exactly. Weather in this country is miserable. Wee bit sunshine and you've got arseholes in the media making out its the end of the world. People pay good money to go away for those kind of heat, enjoy it for the short time it's in Scotland.

No many places better when the sun shines than Scotland. 👍

 

 

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jack D and coke

I feel for Prince Andrew tbh. Imagine not being able to sweat in this weather…

That will be one seriously hot nonce. 
 

1DDDB086-E484-478F-909F-24926CA0C771.jpeg

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3 hours ago, Sir Craig Gordon said:

Exactly. Weather in this country is miserable. Wee bit sunshine and you've got arseholes in the media making out its the end of the world. People pay good money to go away for those kind of heat, enjoy it for the short time it's in Scotland.

A lot of people with health conditions really suffer in this weather.  
 

Also try working in kitchens or doing an outside physical job in these temperatures! 
 

Bet your in a nice air conditioned office 

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2 hours ago, Costanza said:

I think we're past the tipping point and it's going to accelerate in all sorts of horrible ways.

If we continue like this then shortly we are going to be looking at global crop failure, vast sea life extinction, uninhabitable regions,  mass population displacement and huge civil unrest.

The situation needs all governments to throw everything at minimising this as much as possible with the view that a mass extinction threat is coming.

Zero confidence this will happen and I do fear for the kind of world my daughter is going to grow up in.

Yep I agree but it’s ok cause folk in Scotland can get their taps aff 🤦🏻

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9 hours ago, GBJambo said:

A lot of people with health conditions really suffer in this weather.  
 

Also try working in kitchens or doing an outside physical job in these temperatures! 
 

Bet your in a nice air conditioned office 

No im not in a nice cool air conditioned office. I was a bin man so know exactly what it's like to do physical work out in these conditions. And it's 100% better than working out in the pishing rain, I'll tell you that for free. I now drive the bins motors and they don't have air con, just need to crack the windows down and get on with it.

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Jambos_1874

This thread has genuinely depressed me; I think we have some dark times ahead. We have the capability to make the necessary changes to significantly slow the impact of climate change. But, we won't. Future generations will look back on us with disbelief at what we have allowed to happen.

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JudyJudyJudy
5 minutes ago, Jambos_1874 said:

Future generations will look back on us with disbelief at what we have allowed to happen.

thats rather optimistic of you 

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jack D and coke
9 minutes ago, Jambos_1874 said:

This thread has genuinely depressed me; I think we have some dark times ahead. We have the capability to make the necessary changes to significantly slow the impact of climate change. But, we won't. Future generations will look back on us with disbelief at what we have allowed to happen.

Not sure they will.
Nobody wants to change. No one. 
The young ones all want the same stuff and in a lot of cases that I see they’re worse. They get run around everywhere much more than we ever did. They have gadgets coming out their fecking ears all the young ones. Again much more than we ever had. 
Oil use is increasing not decreasing and they all want holidays abroad and buy shitloads of clothes etc. 
I include myself in that. I want new stuff and holidays etc I don’t want someone to take that away from me. 
Im also concerned about the planet when I read stuff. It looks bleak…
But I like it to go away too and let me think about flying to Turkey soon. 
Our best hope is that they’ve got the predictions badly wrong or that we somehow magic something up to save us.
Not the planet. Us. 

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20 minutes ago, Jambos_1874 said:

This thread has genuinely depressed me; I think we have some dark times ahead. We have the capability to make the necessary changes to significantly slow the impact of climate change. But, we won't. Future generations will look back on us with disbelief at what we have allowed to happen.

 

I already look at boomers like that.

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The exponential speed of change would seem natural but seems surprising to  people.

Those that have warned will get blamed ultimately for their predictions being too conservative -made worse by the heat as people will already be hot and bothered.

 

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On 16/07/2022 at 23:47, jambo89 said:

I work in oil and gas but am not anywhere close to what you would call a climate change denier. I am all for the switch to renewables even though it means probably losing my job (such is life).

 

The issue isn't just energey though. That only solves half the problem. Crude / fossil fuels are used to make (or at least part make) almost every product we use in modern day life. I can't see how switching to wind power will provide rubber for our elcetric bikes or cars and the clothes on our back.

I'm in the exact same boat as you (I work with LNG). From a thermodynamic point of view, burning fossil fuels to make power is catastrophically inefficient (and we engineers hat inefficiency!!). However, moving to renewables does have 2 main issues. The first you rightly pointed out above, we don't just burn oil, we make useful stuff out of it. Maybe greater recycling can help us here. 

 

Secondly, and I would argue is even more important, is how do we ensure security of supply with renewables? The sun isn't always shining, the wind isn't always blowing in the tiny little band of windspeed that turbines can work in. In the event there is a shortfall, we need a reliable back-up baseload capacity that can be turned on quickly to take up the slack, and if we are not using fossil fuels, that means nuclear. 

 

Also, the answer to the above problem isn't simple 'build more wind turbines/solar panels/etc.' How many more would you need to guarentee full power availability all the time? 10%, 30%, 100%? The costs would be astronomical.  

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Jambos_1874
1 hour ago, jack D and coke said:

Not sure they will.
Nobody wants to change. No one. 
The young ones all want the same stuff and in a lot of cases that I see they’re worse. They get run around everywhere much more than we ever did. They have gadgets coming out their fecking ears all the young ones. Again much more than we ever had. 
Oil use is increasing not decreasing and they all want holidays abroad and buy shitloads of clothes etc. 
I include myself in that. I want new stuff and holidays etc I don’t want someone to take that away from me. 
Im also concerned about the planet when I read stuff. It looks bleak…
But I like it to go away too and let me think about flying to Turkey soon. 
Our best hope is that they’ve got the predictions badly wrong or that we somehow magic something up to save us.
Not the planet. Us. 

 

The younger generation get criticised but they (and I) have grown up being given nice clothes, holidays abroad, electronic devices etc because they are available and are effectively part of every day life. But, the main issue I have is that we definitively KNOW these things are causing mass destruction of ecosystems and climate change, yet we do nothing (which is your point too). I would say I am pretty well educated about climate change and have made some changes to reduce my impact (reduced flying/driving, use a green energy supplier, cut out red meat etc) but even I am unwilling to sacrifice things which I know are causing climate change. The only way we can collectively change is if it is effectively forced on us by government i.e. limiting flights per year/heavily taxing them, sanctioning financial institutions which invest in fossil fuels, heavily clamp down on polluting industries and heavily tax goods made in China etc which are produced using methods that pollute a lot etc etc. But then again, any government that did that would be voted out soon. There are glimmers of hope in places like Australia where a government was voted in which put climate change at the heart of the agenda, but only now that effects are directly affecting people's life's.

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Jambos_1874
6 minutes ago, trotter said:

I'm in the exact same boat as you (I work with LNG). From a thermodynamic point of view, burning fossil fuels to make power is catastrophically inefficient (and we engineers hat inefficiency!!). However, moving to renewables does have 2 main issues. The first you rightly pointed out above, we don't just burn oil, we make useful stuff out of it. Maybe greater recycling can help us here. 

 

Secondly, and I would argue is even more important, is how do we ensure security of supply with renewables? The sun isn't always shining, the wind isn't always blowing in the tiny little band of windspeed that turbines can work in. In the event there is a shortfall, we need a reliable back-up baseload capacity that can be turned on quickly to take up the slack, and if we are not using fossil fuels, that means nuclear. 

 

Also, the answer to the above problem isn't simple 'build more wind turbines/solar panels/etc.' How many more would you need to guarentee full power availability all the time? 10%, 30%, 100%? The costs would be astronomical.  

 

Yes but by using fossil fuels to make things, rather than burning them, would result in far less of an impact. So, we shouldn't necessarily stop extracting oil, but should stop using it for fuel.

 

On wind and solar, there are big advances in technology, more interconnections between countries to allow large scale power sharing and also energy storage is now becoming far more prevalent. Combine this with possible use of green hydrogen in the future and some nuclear, and it is a solution. Onshore wind is also one of the cheapest forms of electricity production too.

Edited by Jambos_1874
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22 minutes ago, trotter said:

I'm in the exact same boat as you (I work with LNG). From a thermodynamic point of view, burning fossil fuels to make power is catastrophically inefficient (and we engineers hat inefficiency!!). However, moving to renewables does have 2 main issues. The first you rightly pointed out above, we don't just burn oil, we make useful stuff out of it. Maybe greater recycling can help us here. 

 

Secondly, and I would argue is even more important, is how do we ensure security of supply with renewables? The sun isn't always shining, the wind isn't always blowing in the tiny little band of windspeed that turbines can work in. In the event there is a shortfall, we need a reliable back-up baseload capacity that can be turned on quickly to take up the slack, and if we are not using fossil fuels, that means nuclear. 

 

Also, the answer to the above problem isn't simple 'build more wind turbines/solar panels/etc.' How many more would you need to guarentee full power availability all the time? 10%, 30%, 100%? The costs would be astronomical.  

 

Funny you mention supply security as I've been thinking a bit about battery storage since I posted that and this thread has been on the first page. Forget about the battery types and the advances in technology we need to effectively store renewable energy for just now. I was more thinking about if / when we do have the 'battery farms' where will we even put it? I'm not sure if it's viable, but I recall an experiment whereby a processor was submerged in the artic ocean (encased in a pressure vessel that a company I worked for fabricated it). Would it be viable (economically at least) to store any battery farms on the sea bed? The cold temperatures would negatively affect efficiency of the battery, assuming it's conventional battery storage, but having these battery farms on the mainland would take up vast amounts of space. I'm sure smarter people than me have looked in to it of course.

 

Regarding Nuclear, I have moved more in favour of nuclear in the past couple of years, although I think Hydro could to a similar job as can also be turned on quickly. However, Hydro means creating more dams and possible damage to the eco system. A mix of Hydro and Nuclear would see us through imho.

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Салатные палочки

Just Eat deliveries suspended in some areas in England. 

 

This is it folks. 

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4 hours ago, GBJambo said:

Nah planets ****ed. Too many selfish *****

 

30c here wont be long before we start hitting 40c in the summer 

😍

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Who'd have believed that there would have been an overlap in the Venn diagram of the covidiots and Climate Change deniers?

"Experimental drug", you'd laugh but we are really in Don't Look Up territory here.

I'm just surprised no one has posted thoughts from that sage Toby Young to own all the liberal lefty scientists with their degrees and stuff.

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