**** OFF DON ROBERTSON

[sadj]

Just now, Mysterion said:

Interesting to note that Bacuna has anger management issues in light of him going for the jugular!

 

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/juninho-bacuna-short-fuse-rangers-25214936.amp?utm_source=taboola&utm_medium=display&utm_campaign=exchange#origin=https://www.google.co.uk&prerenderSize=1&visibilityState=visible&paddingTop=32&p2r=0&csi=1&aoh=16342211546941&viewerUrl=https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/juninho-bacuna-short-fuse-rangers-25214936.amp&history=1&storage=1&cid=1&cap=navigateTo,cid,fullReplaceHistory,fragment,replaceUrl,iframeScroll?amp_js_v=0.1&usqp=mq331AQKKAFQArABIIACAw==

 

This is where the SFA should step in. If he reacts like that then it needs stamped out before it escalates. 

[PortyBeach]

2 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

Naw it did. JJ was boss and I used to drink in The Saltire bar near Paisley Road Toll with workmates fairly often. Got numerous offers to go along with folk in the two years I was there.

 

4 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

Naw it did. JJ was boss and I used to drink in The Saltire bar near Paisley Road Toll with workmates fairly often. Got numerous offers to go along with folk in the two years I was there.

You lived to tell the tale - that’s the main thing! 

[GinRummy]

1 minute ago, PortyBeach said:

 

You lived to tell the tale - that’s the main thing! 

😀 true

[Riccarton3]

7 minutes ago, Mysterion said:

Interesting to note that Bacuna has anger management issues in light of him going for the jugular!

 

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/juninho-bacuna-short-fuse-rangers-25214936.amp?utm_source=taboola&utm_medium=display&utm_campaign=exchange#origin=https://www.google.co.uk&prerenderSize=1&visibilityState=visible&paddingTop=32&p2r=0&csi=1&aoh=16342211546941&viewerUrl=https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/juninho-bacuna-short-fuse-rangers-25214936.amp&history=1&storage=1&cid=1&cap=navigateTo,cid,fullReplaceHistory,fragment,replaceUrl,iframeScroll?amp_js_v=0.1&usqp=mq331AQKKAFQArABIIACAw==

 

Another one who is 'just a bit silly.' Bobby Madden, take note and go easy.

 

Sounds like a defence case pre empting any action. PATHETIC

Edited October 18, 2021 by Riccarton3

[Walter Kidd]

If I was Neilson I would take them all the way if they try and ban him.  The referee and linesmen did all they could to stop us winning on Saturday.  He waved play on for Rangers after Aribo's tackle!!1??!!  It starts now that we will get no favours from the SFA or their refs, so we need to make sure our football counts and expect nothing.  **** THE SFA.

 

[adso7]

26 minutes ago, sadj said:

Its not the most eloquently put but hes right in many respects especially comparing Aribo and Porteous’s tackles. They are very different. A still photo doesn’t show the full story. Where I think he lets himself down is Aribo’s tackle was a red but the way it happened it is understandable why the referee only booked him. (This from someone who can not stand Bartley for his behaviour and his holier than thou attitude) 

I don't understand (aside from the obvious) how the ref got this wrong. In real time, the split second he takes the bad touch, I'm hoping he lunges in. It's a classic 'giving the ref no option' you see red for that all the time - poor touch, compound error by lunging to retrieve ball, off you go. 

[Jambof3tornado]

2 minutes ago, adso7 said:

I don't understand (aside from the obvious) how the ref got this wrong. In real time, the split second he takes the bad touch, I'm hoping he lunges in. It's a classic 'giving the ref no option' you see red for that all the time - poor touch, compound error by lunging to retrieve ball, off you go. 

Correct, as soon as there's a bad touch the ref should be waiting, expecting what happened to happen.

 

Scottish refs will costs us points this season, even more so if we continue to threaten the duopoly and what if celtic finish bottom half at the split, how does that work for the 4 old firm derby's the tv deal centres on?

[TexasAndy]

Looking at the weekend's decisions in both OF games does anyone think VAR would actually make a difference?  Ultimately it comes back to the Refs decisions. 

[Haken]

39 minutes ago, Jambof3tornado said:

Correct, as soon as there's a bad touch the ref should be waiting, expecting what happened to happen.

 

Scottish refs will costs us points this season, even more so if we continue to threaten the duopoly and what if celtic finish bottom half at the split, how does that work for the 4 old firm derby's the tv deal centres on?

There is absolutely no chance that will happen, the reason being the underlined bit.  We will not be the only team to be on the receiving end of questionable decisions that favour both bigots.

[sadj]

30 minutes ago, adso7 said:

I don't understand (aside from the obvious) how the ref got this wrong. In real time, the split second he takes the bad touch, I'm hoping he lunges in. It's a classic 'giving the ref no option' you see red for that all the time - poor touch, compound error by lunging to retrieve ball, off you go. 

I said at the time yellow wasn’t til I saw the stills I thought red. Theres a difference between lunging and overstretching , its not as dangerous as Porteous’s challenge though it was straight on to Devlin’s shin. There isn’t the intent there either. If our player had been red carded for that at the time we’d be apoplectic. Yellow fair enough. Its a subjective thing that challenge, there is no subjectiveness in Porteous‘s challenge. He came flying across the pitch at pace over the ball and if he’d connected he was injuring Aribo badly. Aribo wasn’t at pace it wasn’t a leg breaker , it wasn’t dangerous in the same way.
 

Perfectly understandable why the ref thought yellow at the time. Would it ge a red if it was our player , thats a different question about Robertsons integrity but I would have said no in terms of the law but against Rangers or Celtic it wouldn’t surprise you if it was. 

 

 The Bacuna incident isnt understandable and I dont think it was a pen on Boyce either. 
 

I think the linos were a bigger joke than Robertson. The two clear chances for them later on looked about a decade offside , Gino had to run past a Rangers player toward the ball after hed been flagged , how that can be offside is mental. 
 

Robertson was pretty lenient with Devlin and Hagi and let them battle , thats not something I think you see that often. Iv seen people say oh but it was obstruction on Boyce so its a pen. Again I don’t think it was but even if it was deemed to be thats an indirect freekick unless the laws have changed. 
 

Bacuna grabbed Kingsley by the throat in front of the 4th official and in front of Robertson  and it was dealt with by a yellow. That is the only incident to me that needs looked at by the compliance officer. 
 

What needs discussed is the lack of consistency and application of rules evenly for both sides when the OF are concerned. It doesn’t help the case when we are going on about decisions that are not clear cut. Passion of fans is great but to get change we need to switch off the maroon tinted specs and raise issues that are irrefutable ie Bacuna. imagine we’d all focussed on pressuring about that incident instead of two subjective ones aswell as Bacuna. 

[PortyBeach]

13 minutes ago, sadj said:

I said at the time yellow wasn’t til I saw the stills I thought red. Theres a difference between lunging and overstretching , its not as dangerous as Porteous’s challenge though it was straight on to Devlin’s shin. There isn’t the intent there either. If our player had been red carded for that at the time we’d be apoplectic. Yellow fair enough. Its a subjective thing that challenge, there is no subjectiveness in Porteous‘s challenge. He came flying across the pitch at pace over the ball and if he’d connected he was injuring Aribo badly. Aribo wasn’t at pace it wasn’t a leg breaker , it wasn’t dangerous in the same way.
 

Perfectly understandable why the ref thought yellow at the time. Would it ge a red if it was our player , thats a different question about Robertsons integrity but I would have said no in terms of the law but against Rangers or Celtic it wouldn’t surprise you if it was. 

 

 The Bacuna incident isnt understandable and I dont think it was a pen on Boyce either. 
 

I think the linos were a bigger joke than Robertson. The two clear chances for them later on looked about a decade offside , Gino had to run past a Rangers player toward the ball after hed been flagged , how that can be offside is mental. 
 

Robertson was pretty lenient with Devlin and Hagi and let them battle , thats not something I think you see that often. Iv seen people say oh but it was obstruction on Boyce so its a pen. Again I don’t think it was but even if it was deemed to be thats an indirect freekick unless the laws have changed. 
 

Bacuna grabbed Kingsley by the throat in front of the 4th official and in front of Robertson  and it was dealt with by a yellow. That is the only incident to me that needs looked at by the compliance officer. 
 

What needs discussed is the lack of consistency and application of rules evenly for both sides when the OF are concerned. It doesn’t help the case when we are going on about decisions that are not clear cut. Passion of fans is great but to get change we need to switch off the maroon tinted specs and raise issues that are irrefutable ie Bacuna. imagine we’d all focussed on pressuring about that incident instead of two subjective ones aswell as Bacuna. 

Good points.

I know it’s all about opinions but I wouldn’t have classified the penalty box challenge on Boyce as “obstruction”.

For me, it’s a clear push and therefore a penalty kick award.

[Brick Tamland]

1 hour ago, PortyBeach said:

That’s some litany 😱. As you rightly say, “any team challenging…” is fair game.

And there’s the media. We used to laugh at the “scoops” around transfer interest in top players of challenging sides that would mysteriously appear on the eve of a match against an OF side. 
Alex Ferguson knew the score. That’s why he encouraged his players to get into the faces of referees and dispute decisions. 

I don’t even think I’ve scratched the surface to be honest and I am sure folk with better memories than me could rattle of 100’s of other instances. 
If we look at Saturdays game alone I have no doubt whatsoever that if that was Devlin on Aribo it would have been a straight red, Kingsley grabbing the boy by the throat straight red, barge on Morelos as per Boycies penalty claim definite penalty. 

[PortyBeach]

21 minutes ago, Brick Tamland said:

I don’t even think I’ve scratched the surface to be honest and I am sure folk with better memories than me could rattle of 100’s of other instances. 
If we look at Saturdays game alone I have no doubt whatsoever that if that was Devlin on Aribo it would have been a straight red, Kingsley grabbing the boy by the throat straight red, barge on Morelos as per Boycies penalty claim definite penalty. 

It seems to me that the “trick” for this cabal of bent referees is, in the main, to take whichever view favours TRFC in situations where decisions might be seen either way.

For example, there are some on here who view the Boyce penalty claim as dubious. So on Saturday - where there might be some doubt around the incident - the ref can subvert the game in TRFC’s favour by taking whichever option suits the SFA’s Eleven. In this case, no penalty.
If it had been Devlin on Aribo? The Ref’s thinking is “Might be seen as a Yellow but there’s also a case for a Red. That’ll be more favourable to TRFC - so Red it is”.

[boag1874]

1 hour ago, sadj said:

I said at the time yellow wasn’t til I saw the stills I thought red. Theres a difference between lunging and overstretching , its not as dangerous as Porteous’s challenge though it was straight on to Devlin’s shin. There isn’t the intent there either. If our player had been red carded for that at the time we’d be apoplectic. Yellow fair enough. Its a subjective thing that challenge, there is no subjectiveness in Porteous‘s challenge. He came flying across the pitch at pace over the ball and if he’d connected he was injuring Aribo badly. Aribo wasn’t at pace it wasn’t a leg breaker , it wasn’t dangerous in the same way.
 

Perfectly understandable why the ref thought yellow at the time. Would it ge a red if it was our player , thats a different question about Robertsons integrity but I would have said no in terms of the law but against Rangers or Celtic it wouldn’t surprise you if it was. 

 

 The Bacuna incident isnt understandable and I dont think it was a pen on Boyce either. 
 

I think the linos were a bigger joke than Robertson. The two clear chances for them later on looked about a decade offside , Gino had to run past a Rangers player toward the ball after hed been flagged , how that can be offside is mental. 
 

Robertson was pretty lenient with Devlin and Hagi and let them battle , thats not something I think you see that often. Iv seen people say oh but it was obstruction on Boyce so its a pen. Again I don’t think it was but even if it was deemed to be thats an indirect freekick unless the laws have changed. 
 

Bacuna grabbed Kingsley by the throat in front of the 4th official and in front of Robertson  and it was dealt with by a yellow. That is the only incident to me that needs looked at by the compliance officer. 
 

What needs discussed is the lack of consistency and application of rules evenly for both sides when the OF are concerned. It doesn’t help the case when we are going on about decisions that are not clear cut. Passion of fans is great but to get change we need to switch off the maroon tinted specs and raise issues that are irrefutable ie Bacuna. imagine we’d all focussed on pressuring about that incident instead of two subjective ones aswell as Bacuna. 

Can't help but agree, I do think Aribo's challenge could have been a red but it's subjective, same with the Boyce pen. Grabbing another player by the throat is violent conduct, no two ways about it. Shocking from the officials not to send him off when it happened right in front of them & needs looked at by the compliance officer.

[Riccarton3]

29 minutes ago, boag1874 said:

Can't help but agree, I do think Aribo's challenge could have been a red but it's subjective, same with the Boyce pen. Grabbing another player by the throat is violent conduct, no two ways about it. Shocking from the officials not to send him off when it happened right in front of them & needs looked at by the compliance officer.

Officials have clear guidelines on certain challenges which takes subjectivity OOT THE GAME.  Straight leg lunge over the ball making contact with an opponents shin. Red Card. Its a pointless exercise if officials cannot apply the rules of the game in such obvious circumstances. Robertson is staring right at it, unobstructed. Clear as day.

 

Bacuna incident could be a portrait of Scottish football; a still with the caption 'this is a booking at Ibrox, Glasgow'

Edited October 18, 2021 by Riccarton3

[Mr Rabbit]

2 hours ago, TexasAndy said:

Looking at the weekend's decisions in both OF games does anyone think VAR would actually make a difference?  Ultimately it comes back to the Refs decisions. 

Agreed, you’d just have incompetent people watching it as well and the decisions would likely be the same.

 

The only improvement would be offside however that’s proved a contentious issue down south and I don’t like how it impacts goals scored.

 

Unfortunately as has been shown elsewhere the fans opinion on the matter doesn’t hold much weight.

[Pasquale for King]

4 hours ago, PortyBeach said:

Why would any Hearts fan want to? 

Free ticket maybe 🤔🤷🏾‍♂️?

[Riccarton3]

22 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

Free ticket maybe 🤔🤷🏾‍♂️?

Would have to be paid handsomely

[Pasquale for King]

1 hour ago, Riccarton3 said:

Would have to be paid handsomely

Yeah me too 

[JamboAl]

3 hours ago, Riccarton3 said:

Officials have clear guidelines on certain challenges which takes subjectivity OOT THE GAME.  Straight leg lunge over the ball making contact with an opponents shin. Red Card. Its a pointless exercise if officials cannot apply the rules of the game in such obvious circumstances. Robertson is staring right at it, unobstructed. Clear as day.

 

Bacuna incident could be a portrait of Scottish football; a still with the caption 'this is a booking at Ibrox, Glasgow'

FIFA have financial fair play rules but somehow don't have integrity rules that would stop a Glasgow referee reffing a Glasgow team in Glasgow.

[NANOJAMBO]

4 minutes ago, JamboAl said:

FIFA have financial fair play rules but somehow don't have integrity rules that would stop a Glasgow referee reffing a Glasgow team in Glasgow.

This is long overduw and it's time clubs spoke up. Also , anyone on here  any good at stats ? What is the probability that the "top" refs always come from the West of Scotland. This needs examined. 

[Deevers]

Until every SPFL manager has the balls to speak out about the injustice visited on them week in, week out, by biased officials every time it happens when somebody is playing either side of the Old Firm, then nothing  will  ever happen to change things. It’s going to take a sustained campaign by everyone to exert change. While the majority sit on their hands and just accept being routinely shafted by cheats then nothing will ever change.

Edited October 18, 2021 by Deevers

[Deevers]

7 hours ago, TexasAndy said:

Looking at the weekend's decisions in both OF games does anyone think VAR would actually make a difference?  Ultimately it comes back to the Refs decisions. 

Imagine Bobby Madden sitting on VAR on Saturday. Would any of the decisions have been changed?  That’s your problem.

Edited October 18, 2021 by Deevers

[maggieb]

4 minutes ago, Deevers said:

Imagine Bobby Madden sitting on VAR on Saturday. Would and of the decisions have been changed?  That’s your problem.

Nail , head etc👏🏻

[OTT]

1 hour ago, Deevers said:

Until every SPFL manager has the balls to speak out about the injustice visited on them week in, week out, by biased officials every time it happens when somebody is playing either side of the Old Firm, then nothing  will  ever happen to change things. It’s going to take a sustained campaign by everyone to exert change. While the majority sit on their hands and just accept being routinely shafted by cheats then nothing will ever change.

 

I wonder the merits of joint statements. Think it would be more powerful and harder to dismiss as sour grapes. 

[Halliphax]

7 hours ago, Brick Tamland said:

I don’t even think I’ve scratched the surface to be honest and I am sure folk with better memories than me could rattle of 100’s of other instances. 

What about that one at Tynecastle where Scott Brown threw an elbow back into Naismith's face as he was jogging past him and didn't get sent off (can't even mind if he got carded for that). Sounds worse than I'm describing it, play/ball was way down the pitch and this all unfolded on the halfway line.

 

Horrible horrible *****

[milky_26]

11 minutes ago, Halliphax said:

What about that one at Tynecastle where Scott Brown threw an elbow back into Naismith's face as he was jogging past him and didn't get sent off (can't even mind if he got carded for that). Sounds worse than I'm describing it, play/ball was way down the pitch and this all unfolded on the halfway line.

 

Horrible horrible *****

im sure he missed naismith and nearly took out one of his own players. 

[Harry Potter]

20 hours ago, the general said:

I'm sure the compliance officer will intervene...

aye so he will

[bobskeldon]

17 hours ago, PortyBeach said:

Good points.

I know it’s all about opinions but I wouldn’t have classified the penalty box challenge on Boyce as “obstruction”.

For me, it’s a clear push and therefore a penalty kick award.

It wasn’t obstruction, Balogun is side on and slightly behind. He looks at Boyce, moves his body and barges Boyce off the ball. Anywhere else on the park it is 100% a free kick so in the box it is 100% a penalty. 

[John Findlay]

18 minutes ago, Harry Potter said:

aye so he will

I think the compliance officer is a she.

[adso7]

15 hours ago, NANOJAMBO said:

This is long overduw and it's time clubs spoke up. Also , anyone on here  any good at stats ? What is the probability that the "top" refs always come from the West of Scotland. This needs examined. 

Not stats as such but interesting article here: https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/16114571.investigation-referees-blow-the-whistle-on-unrest/

[Brick Tamland]

2 hours ago, adso7 said:

Not stats as such but interesting article here: https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/16114571.investigation-referees-blow-the-whistle-on-unrest/

Very interesting but not massively surprising, 3 years old but still very relevant today.

[Jim Panzee]

6 minutes ago, jonnothejambo said:

 

Didn't she pack it in ? 

 

Is there even a CO these days ?

Andrew Phillips I think - started back in March. Dunno if still in the role or if the role still exists 6 months on

[kingantti1874]

17 hours ago, Deevers said:

Imagine Bobby Madden sitting on VAR on Saturday. Would any of the decisions have been changed?  That’s your problem.

I actually think it would. They believe they can get away with it at the moment. There will be no where to hide with VAR. of course they will still get the benefit of the doubt but they can’t get away with the obviously wrong any more. 
 

it will tip the balance slightly 

[Thomaso]

On 18/10/2021 at 12:29, PortyBeach said:

That’s some litany 😱. As you rightly say, “any team challenging…” is fair game.

And there’s the media. We used to laugh at the “scoops” around transfer interest in top players of challenging sides that would mysteriously appear on the eve of a match against an OF side. 
Alex Ferguson knew the score. That’s why he encouraged his players to get into the faces of referees and dispute decisions. 

Getting in the face of a referee only works for OF players - for any other players it results in yellow and red cards! 😏

[Thomaso]

18 hours ago, Deevers said:

Until every SPFL manager has the balls to speak out about the injustice visited on them week in, week out, by biased officials every time it happens when somebody is playing either side of the Old Firm, then nothing  will  ever happen to change things. It’s going to take a sustained campaign by everyone to exert change. While the majority sit on their hands and just accept being routinely shafted by cheats then nothing will ever change.

The other Clubs had the opportunity to back Hearts after the disgusting Andy Davis ‘penalty’ award by saying enough is enough!

Instead they said feck all and were happy that Miko was getting thrown to the wolves!

Infact the only comment came from that erse Yorkston when we were awarded a stonewall penalty against Dunfermline the week after!

”They’re not complaining about a penalty now are they!” was his snide remark after the game!

The media’s take on the Davis disgrace was summed up by another erse Archie McPherson - he said “Well over the course of the season these decisions will even out!”

He was of course referring to Rangers and Celtic - no other club! 😏

[PortyBeach]

1 hour ago, Thomaso said:

Getting in the face of a referee only works for OF players - for any other players it results in yellow and red cards! 😏

In the main, yes. But I think Ferguson’s Aberdeen players did have some success which is why OF fans and their media lickspittles moaned about the tactic.

[PortyBeach]

1 hour ago, Thomaso said:

The other Clubs had the opportunity to back Hearts after the disgusting Andy Davis ‘penalty’ award by saying enough is enough!

Instead they said feck all and were happy that Miko was getting thrown to the wolves!

Infact the only comment came from that erse Yorkston when we were awarded a stonewall penalty against Dunfermline the week after!

”They’re not complaining about a penalty now are they!” was his snide remark after the game!

The media’s take on the Davis disgrace was summed up by another erse Archie McPherson - he said “Well over the course of the season these decisions will even out!”

He was of course referring to Rangers and Celtic - no other club! 😏

You’re right. Short-sighted self-interest and envy seem to pervade Scottish clubs blinding them to the bigger prize. Failure to agree league reconstruction the other year is another example.

Was “Davisgate” the same season RFC’s final league match was against Dunfermline at Ibrox? 

 

[OTT]

I wonder what the East Coast clubs could do to 'champion' their local refereeing associations? Talk them up for long enough to justify asking questions why their officials aren't being promoted? Done in the right way it could help pressurise the SFA to fix the pretty obvious bias in who they promote. 

Edited October 19, 2021 by OTT

[sadj]

37 minutes ago, OTT said:

I wonder what the East Coast clubs could do to 'champion' their local refereeing associations? Talk them up for long enough to justify asking questions why their officials aren't being promoted? Done in the right way it could help pressurise the SFA to fix the pretty obvious bias in who they promote. 

Could it be a case that now the Lowland League has some stature to it as opposed to refs progressing through the West Coast Junior matches that we may see more East Coast based refs moving up?

[GinRummy]

2 hours ago, PortyBeach said:

In the main, yes. But I think Ferguson’s Aberdeen players did have some success which is why OF fans and their media lickspittles moaned about the tactic.

Yep, Willie Miller was an expert ear bender. 

[Thomaso]

2 hours ago, PortyBeach said:

In the main, yes. But I think Ferguson’s Aberdeen players did have some success which is why OF fans and their media lickspittles moaned about the tactic.

It was a different game over 30 years ago! 🤷‍♂️

Edited October 19, 2021 by Thomaso

[Thomaso]

2 hours ago, PortyBeach said:

You’re right. Short-sighted self-interest and envy seem to pervade Scottish clubs blinding them to the bigger prize. Failure to agree league reconstruction the other year is another example.

Was “Davisgate” the same season RFC’s final league match was against Dunfermline at Ibrox? 

 

Pretty sure it was - put it this way Davis doesn’t give them a penalty, his beloved Rangers do not win the league. 😏

[OTT]

29 minutes ago, sadj said:

Could it be a case that now the Lowland League has some stature to it as opposed to refs progressing through the West Coast Junior matches that we may see more East Coast based refs moving up?

 

Honestly, I think we're looking at an organisation with a historic culture of bias towards 3/4 of its member associations. I don't think we're going to force change by shouting about it though. I think a better tactic is to talk up the associations essentially being ignored by the SFA/ Central refereeing committee and begin to ask difficult questions around why they aren't being promoted. Sort of leading ones where people will draw obvious conclusions. 

 

We used to have profiles of the referees on the SFA website and know which association they came from, we now don't have that info and I can only think it is a deliberate attempt by the SFA to obfuscate being able to track which associations are actually seeing refs promoted to the top level because if we had that info the bias would be provable as we would likely be able to cite decades of preferential treatment towards the west coast refs associations (Glasgow, Renfrewshire, Lanarkshire and Ayrshire). 

 

The fact that every FIFA grade Scottish referee comes from Glasgow or one of its surrounding towns is deeply suspicious and IMO not a freak result of them just being better than anyone else. Very clearly west coast refs promote west coast refs then move into senior positions to then promote more west coast refs. I don't necessarily think its being done with malice, but very obviously we have an issue here that needs to be addressed. 

[sadj]

4 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

Honestly, I think we're looking at an organisation with a historic culture of bias towards 3/4 of its member associations. I don't think we're going to force change by shouting about it though. I think a better tactic is to talk up the associations essentially being ignored by the SFA/ Central refereeing committee and begin to ask difficult questions around why they aren't being promoted. Sort of leading ones where people will draw obvious conclusions. 

 

We used to have profiles of the referees on the SFA website and know which association they came from, we now don't have that info and I can only think it is a deliberate attempt by the SFA to obfuscate being able to track which associations are actually seeing refs promoted to the top level because if we had that info the bias would be provable as we would likely be able to cite decades of preferential treatment towards the west coast refs associations (Glasgow, Renfrewshire, Lanarkshire and Ayrshire). 

 

The fact that every FIFA grade Scottish referee comes from Glasgow or one of its surrounding towns is deeply suspicious and IMO not a freak result of them just being better than anyone else. Very clearly west coast refs promote west coast refs then move into senior positions to then promote more west coast refs. I don't necessarily think its being done with malice, but very obviously we have an issue here that needs to be addressed. 

 

As much as I appreciate and to a large extent agree with what you are saying. I think when you have refs dealing with teams like Auchinleck , Petershill , Pollok etc historically they should in theory be higher quality and ready for promotion. I don’t think that will be the case as time moves on now with the new set up. That does not stop the obfuscation or stop them circumventing things with who they put in positions of authority to make these decisions however

[OTT]

24 minutes ago, sadj said:

 

As much as I appreciate and to a large extent agree with what you are saying. I think when you have refs dealing with teams like Auchinleck , Petershill , Pollok etc historically they should in theory be higher quality and ready for promotion. I don’t think that will be the case as time moves on now with the new set up. That does not stop the obfuscation or stop them circumventing things with who they put in positions of authority to make these decisions however

 

Transparency is the key to overcoming obfuscation, we know the name of every referee to have refereed a top flight game for the last 30 years. I wonder if McKinley could request the data of which association each referee belongs to in the interests of transparency? 

 

If nothing is amiss then the data will show that. If as I suspect something is badly amiss then the data will show a huge unexplainable skew towards the west coast associations. I think this data would give the northern and east coast clubs ammunition to force change because I do not believe the SFA could answer questions around that data. The data 100% exists, as a member of the SPFL/SFA we surely have the right to review that information? The last Edinburgh FIFA referee was Calum Murray and was removed from the list in 2013. Edinburgh is the 2nd largest population centre in Scotland. Meanwhile, of the 7, 3 are from Glasgow and its 2 a piece for Lanarkshire and Renfrewshire. I can't explain that. Can you? Maybe the SFA can. Maybe we could review the last batch of FIFA referees and see if this is just a coincidence. The point is that data is ****ing hidden.

 

My understanding with organisational culture change is that it takes a lot of conscious effort to bring about change. Left up to time we could be talking decades (if ever) before the way referees are selected is improved. The preference (I believe) with promoting west coast referees is utterly imbedded into the fabric of the SFA and change needs to be proactively forced. It can't be left up to time to eventually correct it. Fans of Aberdeen, Hearts, Hibs, Dundee, Dundee Utd, St Johnstone, all the fife clubs deserve a damn sight better from the governing body and IMO the clubs with this data could begin asking awkward questions designed to more quickly bring about that change. 

 

Dave Cormack for example, arsehole that he might be is putting a lot of money into Aberdeen, and whats the point in doing that if you're playing against a loaded deck? Likewise Ron, likewise the yanks at the Dundees and ourselves as pledgers. Parity in referee selection is the least we should be able to expect as stakeholders of Scottish football. 

Edited October 19, 2021 by OTT

[John Findlay]

19 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

Transparency is the key to overcoming obfuscation, we know the name of every referee to have refereed a top flight game for the last 30 years. I wonder if McKinley could request the data of which association each referee belongs to in the interests of transparency? 

 

If nothing is amiss then the data will show that. If as I suspect something is badly amiss then the data will show a huge unexplainable skew towards the west coast associations. I think this data would give the northern and east coast clubs ammunition to force change because I do not believe the SFA could answer questions around that data. The data 100% exists, as a member of the SPFL/SFA we surely have the right to review that information? The last Edinburgh FIFA referee was Calum Murray and was removed from the list in 2013. Edinburgh is the 2nd largest population centre in Scotland. Meanwhile, of the 7, 3 are from Glasgow and its 2 a piece for Lanarkshire and Renfrewshire. I can't explain that. Can you? Maybe the SFA can. Maybe we could review the last batch of FIFA referees and see if this is just a coincidence. The point is that data is ****ing hidden.

 

My understanding with organisational culture change is that it takes a lot of conscious effort to bring about change. Left up to time we could be talking decades (if ever) before the way referees are selected is improved. The preference (I believe) with promoting west coast referees is utterly imbedded into the fabric of the SFA and change needs to be proactively forced. It can't be left up to time to eventually correct it. Fans of Aberdeen, Hearts, Hibs, Dundee, Dundee Utd, St Johnstone, all the fife clubs deserve a damn sight better from the governing body and IMO the clubs with this data could begin asking awkward questions designed to more quickly bring about that change. 

 

Dave Cormack for example, arsehole that he might be is putting a lot of money into Aberdeen, and whats the point in doing that if you're playing against a loaded deck? Likewise Ron, likewise the yanks at the Dundees and ourselves as pledgers. Parity in referee selection is the least we should be able to expect as stakeholders of Scottish football. 

Very well put post.

Can the information not be obtained from Freedom of Information request(s)? 

[sadj]

42 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

Transparency is the key to overcoming obfuscation, we know the name of every referee to have refereed a top flight game for the last 30 years. I wonder if McKinley could request the data of which association each referee belongs to in the interests of transparency? 

 

If nothing is amiss then the data will show that. If as I suspect something is badly amiss then the data will show a huge unexplainable skew towards the west coast associations. I think this data would give the northern and east coast clubs ammunition to force change because I do not believe the SFA could answer questions around that data. The data 100% exists, as a member of the SPFL/SFA we surely have the right to review that information? The last Edinburgh FIFA referee was Calum Murray and was removed from the list in 2013. Edinburgh is the 2nd largest population centre in Scotland. Meanwhile, of the 7, 3 are from Glasgow and its 2 a piece for Lanarkshire and Renfrewshire. I can't explain that. Can you? Maybe the SFA can. Maybe we could review the last batch of FIFA referees and see if this is just a coincidence. The point is that data is ****ing hidden.

 

My understanding with organisational culture change is that it takes a lot of conscious effort to bring about change. Left up to time we could be talking decades (if ever) before the way referees are selected is improved. The preference (I believe) with promoting west coast referees is utterly imbedded into the fabric of the SFA and change needs to be proactively forced. It can't be left up to time to eventually correct it. Fans of Aberdeen, Hearts, Hibs, Dundee, Dundee Utd, St Johnstone, all the fife clubs deserve a damn sight better from the governing body and IMO the clubs with this data could begin asking awkward questions designed to more quickly bring about that change. 

 

Dave Cormack for example, arsehole that he might be is putting a lot of money into Aberdeen, and whats the point in doing that if you're playing against a loaded deck? Likewise Ron, likewise the yanks at the Dundees and ourselves as pledgers. Parity in referee selection is the least we should be able to expect as stakeholders of Scottish football. 

 

22 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

Very well put post.

Can the information not be obtained from Freedom of Information request(s)? 

As John says good post , I agree , Im not saying these things will happen overnight. They may not happen at all but at least I think it will be interesting to see if they keep loading up with refs from the west coast (The reason I raised this part was because I remember during a discussion the SFA saying that due to the level of juniors most refs who came through were west coast based as they were dealing with lets say higher quality games) Andrew Dallas was fast tracked too if i remember correctly. Some of the referees we have have clear links to clubs and its a disgrace that they are allowed to ref them. The option just now could only be a foreign ref though as the Grade One refs from outwith the West Cost catchment area are just not there. How you resolve that in the short term without foreign refs I have no idea. 
 

Do we believe the refs outside of the West Coast are worse than those from it? No , I certainly don’t however the opportunities for them to move up are limited by those in position to make those decisions. 
 

Everything always comes back to the SFA and it being a closed shop for non OF affiliated people

[leginten]

2 hours ago, OTT said:

 

Honestly, I think we're looking at an organisation with a historic culture of bias towards 3/4 of its member associations. I don't think we're going to force change by shouting about it though. I think a better tactic is to talk up the associations essentially being ignored by the SFA/ Central refereeing committee and begin to ask difficult questions around why they aren't being promoted. Sort of leading ones where people will draw obvious conclusions. 

 

We used to have profiles of the referees on the SFA website and know which association they came from, we now don't have that info and I can only think it is a deliberate attempt by the SFA to obfuscate being able to track which associations are actually seeing refs promoted to the top level because if we had that info the bias would be provable as we would likely be able to cite decades of preferential treatment towards the west coast refs associations (Glasgow, Renfrewshire, Lanarkshire and Ayrshire). 

 

The fact that every FIFA grade Scottish referee comes from Glasgow or one of its surrounding towns is deeply suspicious and IMO not a freak result of them just being better than anyone else. Very clearly west coast refs promote west coast refs then move into senior positions to then promote more west coast refs. I don't necessarily think its being done with malice, but very obviously we have an issue here that needs to be addressed. 

I went to a shareholders’ dinner a few years ago where the speaker was a former referee (I can’t remember his name) who gave some astonishing statistics about the number of top-tier matches not officiated by referees from the Glasgow, Lanarkshire and Ayrshire (or was it Renfrewshire?) associations over a particular period. I think it was about 3%. He also went back through Hearts matches against the OF in Glasgow for decades and came up with about one match for the same criteria.

 

Sorry, not a very reliable recollection, but the gist was clear enough.

[OTT]

52 minutes ago, leginten said:

I went to a shareholders’ dinner a few years ago where the speaker was a former referee (I can’t remember his name) who gave some astonishing statistics about the number of top-tier matches not officiated by referees from the Glasgow, Lanarkshire and Ayrshire (or was it Renfrewshire?) associations over a particular period. I think it was about 3%. He also went back through Hearts matches against the OF in Glasgow for decades and came up with about one match for the same criteria.

 

Sorry, not a very reliable recollection, but the gist was clear enough.

 

It just goes to underscore the scale of the problem.

 

The data is there and it is undeniable. Just need to be collected and published. All these anecdotes just further support the position that the selection process for the referees is broken. 

 

Honestly, I reckon a half decent journalist could make their name off the back of it. Those stats get put together and you have an undeniable irrefutable argument that there is bias in our game because they cannot be justified. You could throw in some quotes from statisticians highlighting just how unjustifiable it is to really add fuel to the fire.  You cannot justify the scale of appointments from those 3/4 associations all within a stones throw of each other vs the rest. The stat about how few Edinburgh referees there have been in Scottish cup finals over a 100+ year history again just proves the point. 

 

I genuinely think its an argument which could be won. You can call individual referees bent or biased till the cows come home and it won't prove anything, but you look over a 30,40,50 year period and can show definitively that there is a pattern of only referees from certain associations rising to the top then you can push for meaningful change.