Bazzas right boot Posted October 16, 2021 Share Posted October 16, 2021 Something about nothing imo. The tackle was far worse, a career ender although it was a reaction to a bad touch and no malice involved. Grabbed by the throat... handbags! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor FinnBarr Posted October 16, 2021 Share Posted October 16, 2021 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Barack said: Funny enough, I was thinking this earlier on. By the way, how's life treating you over the water? Think it was, thats why McGrass was able to clipe on Stevo after a derby. Hey ho, main stand can concentrate on McGrass next Saturday whilst the rest of us noise up the Thumb. Edited October 16, 2021 by FinnBarr Saunders Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wee Mikey Posted October 16, 2021 Share Posted October 16, 2021 29 minutes ago, Section Q said: Just saw the highlights from Rangers TV. No footage of the incident so it probably never happened. That carpet on the 6th floor at Hampden must be absolutely bulging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobNox Posted October 16, 2021 Share Posted October 16, 2021 25 minutes ago, tian447 said: Didn't that rule get changed ages ago? Especially for things like violent conduct or dangerous foul play? You are probably right, I've seen others post similarly since I posted my comment. It's too hard for old guys like me to keep up with these rule changes. In my day the rules were simple. The defender got away with the first 'robust' challenge, got warned after the second, was booked after the third, given a further warning after the fourth and risked being sent off if he committed a fifth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ri Alban Posted October 17, 2021 Share Posted October 17, 2021 8 hours ago, jack D and coke said: Just wait till these corrupt *******s are watching it for VAR. The fun will commence. Sorry our Tellys broke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GinRummy Posted October 17, 2021 Author Share Posted October 17, 2021 (edited) 6 hours ago, Smith's right boot said: Something about nothing imo. The tackle was far worse, a career ender although it was a reaction to a bad touch and no malice involved. Grabbed by the throat... handbags! The tackle was worse but it was also in play and the severity of it could have been missed. Grabbing an opponent by the neck off the ball is violent conduct and a straight red card. Edited October 17, 2021 by GinRummy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graygo Posted October 17, 2021 Share Posted October 17, 2021 8 hours ago, RobNox said: Can't do anything about Aribo. The ref was clever, he booked Aribo, which means there is no avenue for any retrospective punishment to be handed down. 7 hours ago, tian447 said: Didn't that rule get changed ages ago? Especially for things like violent conduct or dangerous foul play? It did, nothing to stop the compliance officer from upgrading a yellow to a red. Well nothing except getting blackballed at the next lodge meeting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gorgie Posted October 17, 2021 Share Posted October 17, 2021 (edited) 9 hours ago, Jambos1983 said: If you think the ref was fair you're either blind or a rangers fan For being in Glasgow I thought he was ok. Oh that must make me a rangers fan. Shut up. Edited October 17, 2021 by Section N Rules Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartgarfunkel Posted October 17, 2021 Share Posted October 17, 2021 Crazy. There’s a lad in the Border Amateur leagues serving a 10 match ban for putting his hands on an opponent’s throat. After receiving a straight red card of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott herbertson Posted October 17, 2021 Share Posted October 17, 2021 Mods - title change to "Grabbing an opponent of Rangers or Celtic by the throat" surely - we all know is a red card offence normally so this is the point of discussion It could also be merged with the "lunging, studs up at the shin of an opponent of Celtic or Rangers" thread . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Hardy’s Dug Posted October 17, 2021 Share Posted October 17, 2021 As mentioned yesterday I’d be disappointed if Hearts didn’t appeal for upgrades to both yellows yesterday (if you can still do that, you know like Hibs did with Stevenson). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Libertarian Posted October 18, 2021 Share Posted October 18, 2021 On 16/10/2021 at 20:43, Class of 75 said: Unbelievable. Should be a straight red. Anywhere else it would have been but you get nothing at Ibrox. Poor refereeing Poor refereeing is an understatement, the referee (Robertson) should be suspended with a full investigation to be removed as a grade 1 referee. This is what the Hearts should be demanding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OTT Posted October 18, 2021 Share Posted October 18, 2021 6 minutes ago, Libertarian said: Poor refereeing is an understatement, the referee (Robertson) should be suspended with a full investigation to be removed as a grade 1 referee. This is what the Hearts should be demanding. Makes you wonder if its worth asking the question. I'm sick of referees thinking non-OF clubs won't stand up for themselves. You grab an opponents throat, that is a straight red. Booking both players was a total cop out. Flip side is you turn all the refs against you. Something needs to give here because its handing an advantage to two clubs who don't need another leg up on everyone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Libertarian Posted October 18, 2021 Share Posted October 18, 2021 1 minute ago, OTT said: Makes you wonder if its worth asking the question. I'm sick of referees thinking non-OF clubs won't stand up for themselves. You grab an opponents throat, that is a straight red. Booking both players was a total cop out. Flip side is you turn all the refs against you. Something needs to give here because its handing an advantage to two clubs who don't need another leg up on everyone else. Grabbing an opponent by the throat is a straight card, it's also a criminal assault, endangering the victim. If the football authorities won't do anything about this then a complaint should be made to Police Scotland. The evidence is all their on film. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Kintner Posted October 18, 2021 Share Posted October 18, 2021 19 minutes ago, OTT said: Makes you wonder if its worth asking the question. I'm sick of referees thinking non-OF clubs won't stand up for themselves. You grab an opponents throat, that is a straight red. Booking both players was a total cop out. Flip side is you turn all the refs against you. Something needs to give here because its handing an advantage to two clubs who don't need another leg up on everyone else. It was either two yellows or two reds. I’m glad it was two yellows as Kingley’s much more important to us than Bacuna is to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Kintner Posted October 18, 2021 Share Posted October 18, 2021 15 minutes ago, Libertarian said: Grabbing an opponent by the throat is a straight card, it's also a criminal assault, endangering the victim. If the football authorities won't do anything about this then a complaint should be made to Police Scotland. The evidence is all their on film. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ri Alban Posted October 19, 2021 Share Posted October 19, 2021 10 hours ago, Libertarian said: Grabbing an opponent by the throat is a straight card, it's also a criminal assault, endangering the victim. If the football authorities won't do anything about this then a complaint should be made to Police Scotland. The evidence is all their on film. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DS98 Posted October 19, 2021 Share Posted October 19, 2021 (edited) On 17/10/2021 at 00:30, Smith's right boot said: Something about nothing imo. The tackle was far worse, a career ender although it was a reaction to a bad touch and no malice involved. Grabbed by the throat... handbags! Aye, next time someone at my place of work gets on my wick I’ll grab them by the throat. Sure it’ll be fine. Edited October 19, 2021 by DS98 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazzas right boot Posted October 19, 2021 Share Posted October 19, 2021 10 hours ago, Libertarian said: Grabbing an opponent by the throat is a straight card, it's also a criminal assault, endangering the victim. If the football authorities won't do anything about this then a complaint should be made to Police Scotland. The evidence is all their on film. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GinRummy Posted October 19, 2021 Author Share Posted October 19, 2021 7 minutes ago, DS98 said: Aye, next time someone at my place of work gets on my wick I’ll grab them by the throat. Sure it’ll be fine. Might make them think on before they annoy you the next time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homme Posted October 19, 2021 Share Posted October 19, 2021 5 minutes ago, Smith's right boot said: The poster could always put in a complaint to Police Scotland himself if he is so horrified by the incident that both Kingsley and Bacuna laughed off at the end of the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GinRummy Posted October 19, 2021 Author Share Posted October 19, 2021 10 hours ago, Alex Kintner said: It was either two yellows or two reds. I’m glad it was two yellows as Kingley’s much more important to us than Bacuna is to them. Nah. Shoves are often yellows. Grabbing someones neck is violent conduct and a straight red imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazzas right boot Posted October 19, 2021 Share Posted October 19, 2021 (edited) 12 minutes ago, DS98 said: Aye, next time someone at my place of work gets on my wick I’ll grab them by the throat. Sure it’ll be fine. If you do, and they boot you in the balls or knock you out then don't go greetin to HR. I think he'll will recover. It might take him months of professional help but I'm sure with support from the fans and his family he'll overcome this trauma. Folk are a bit precious sometimes. When Naismith stood on Brown we were all like Rangers boy has a go and everyone is like Should it have been a red-yes Was any player hurt mentally or physically during the making of this football game-naw. There's even calls for the police on here. 👮♂️ We dust ourselves down and move on, maybe the compliance officer will do something, maybe not. The bias of refs at Ibrox was discussed after the hibs lads tackle and two weeks later we are doing it again. It won't change, but in regards to the assault etc, folk need to calm doon, it's Litterally a man's game and no one was hurt. Edited October 19, 2021 by Smith's right boot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazzas right boot Posted October 19, 2021 Share Posted October 19, 2021 5 minutes ago, Homme said: The poster could always put in a complaint to Police Scotland himself if he is so horrified by the incident that both Kingsley and Bacuna laughed off at the end of the game. Yip. I don't think kingsley is losing sleep over it and rocking backward and forward as he slowly loses his mind after such a jarring incident. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DS98 Posted October 19, 2021 Share Posted October 19, 2021 41 minutes ago, Smith's right boot said: If you do, and they boot you in the balls or knock you out then don't go greetin to HR. I think he'll will recover. It might take him months of professional help but I'm sure with support from the fans and his family he'll overcome this trauma. Folk are a bit precious sometimes. When Naismith stood on Brown we were all like Rangers boy has a go and everyone is like Should it have been a red-yes Was any player hurt mentally or physically during the making of this football game-naw. There's even calls for the police on here. 👮♂️ We dust ourselves down and move on, maybe the compliance officer will do something, maybe not. The bias of refs at Ibrox was discussed after the hibs lads tackle and two weeks later we are doing it again. It won't change, but in regards to the assault etc, folk need to calm doon, it's Litterally a man's game and no one was hurt. Naisy got a retrospective ban. Both Sevco players weren’t even mentioned on Sportscene. Meaning the useless compliance officer won’t even know it happened. If Halkett throttles Griffiths a yard away from the ref on Sat you better believe it won’t gets brushed off as handbags. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamhammer Posted October 19, 2021 Share Posted October 19, 2021 27 minutes ago, DS98 said: Naisy got a retrospective ban. Both Sevco players weren’t even mentioned on Sportscene. Meaning the useless compliance officer won’t even know it happened. If Halkett throttles Griffiths a yard away from the ref on Sat you better believe it won’t gets brushed off as handbags. I’ve still not seen video of “the tackle” just a still. Its literally “nothing to see here” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazzas right boot Posted October 19, 2021 Share Posted October 19, 2021 55 minutes ago, DS98 said: Naisy got a retrospective ban. Both Sevco players weren’t even mentioned on Sportscene. Meaning the useless compliance officer won’t even know it happened. If Halkett throttles Griffiths a yard away from the ref on Sat you better believe it won’t gets brushed off as handbags. Ofc, but that's a separate issue to our reaction. 100% agree, but different issues. Do I think if the hibs tackle was reversed that a rangers player would have been sent off-no. The Boyce penalty - likely a pk at the other end. The throat grab, Hearts player sent off. The bad touch then tackle, imo a booking was correct but Likley a red if roles reversed. Doesn't mean that imo the hibs red card was not correct, the pk would have been soft, the booking for the tackle was correct and imo the throat incident was hand bags - both players laughing about it afterwards. The issue has Always been about how the ref would have acted if the roles were reversed. That is the issue. You are 100% on that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The jj era Posted October 19, 2021 Share Posted October 19, 2021 Good on the ref to give both yellows and move on tbh. Un heard of nowadays... just a bit of handbags. Move on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamhammer Posted October 19, 2021 Share Posted October 19, 2021 37 minutes ago, Smith's right boot said: Ofc, but that's a separate issue to our reaction. 100% agree, but different issues. Do I think if the hibs tackle was reversed that a rangers player would have been sent off-no. The Boyce penalty - likely a pk at the other end. The throat grab, Hearts player sent off. The bad touch then tackle, imo a booking was correct but Likley a red if roles reversed. Doesn't mean that imo the hibs red card was not correct, the pk would have been soft, the booking for the tackle was correct and imo the throat incident was hand bags - both players laughing about it afterwards. The issue has Always been about how the ref would have acted if the roles were reversed. That is the issue. You are 100% on that. Pretty much sums it up. Had the tackle been the other way about you can bet yer arse we’d have seen it from every angle on Sportscene and stills in all the papers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Panzee Posted October 19, 2021 Share Posted October 19, 2021 25 minutes ago, The jj era said: Good on the ref to give both yellows and move on tbh. Un heard of nowadays... just a bit of handbags. Move on which would be fine - apart from one jarring word.....consistency. It's all fans of every football team in the world crave - consistency....which means a level playing field. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riccarton3 Posted October 19, 2021 Share Posted October 19, 2021 2 hours ago, Jamhammer said: I’ve still not seen video of “the tackle” just a still. Its literally “nothing to see here” Dealing with the Glasgow mafia. It's a testament to fans they still follow the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Kintner Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 19 hours ago, GinRummy said: Nah. Shoves are often yellows. Grabbing someones neck is violent conduct and a straight red imo. Pushes to the face are more often red cards than not tbf. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zakred Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 I seem to remember we had a player sent off at Ibrox for Kicking a goal post, still he was the 4th that day!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallas Green Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 I think what we can take away from the officials performance at Ibrox is that the standard of refereeing in this country is very bad. Boyce could have had a penalty, if you run across and block a player 30/40 yards from goal with no attempt to play the ball then it's a free kick. It might have been on the soft side but it was a foul, he obstructed his run. Do I think Rangers would have got that? Yes Aribo could have, probably should have, been sent off. He badly controlled the ball, lost it, then streched his leg out and lunged at the ball, missing it and catching Devlin. He was high and out of control, there is no way you can be in control at full stretch. Had Devlin done that to Aribo, would he have been sent off? Yes Boyce was onside, it didn't lead to a goal but we scored from a corner later in the game and were starting to impose on Rangers. We have seen in recent years offside goals from Rangers be scored against us. Bacuna should have been sent off for placing his hand around Kingsley's throat. If Kingsley had done that to Bacuna would he have been off? Yes but I think the fact Kingsley pushed Bacuna back is why the ref decided to do what he did. Still should have been a red for placing your hand on the throat of an opposition player. I don't think there is a conspiracy though, just a really poor standard of refs. Who are probably scared to give big decisions against the old firm at home (and sometimes away) 😂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SomethingAboutObua Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 1 hour ago, Dallas Green said: I don't think there is a conspiracy though, just a really poor standard of refs. Who are probably scared to give big decisions against the old firm at home (and sometimes away) 😂 It surely is true tbh, we know the referees mostly coming from Lanarkshire/Glasgow, imagine the abuse you'd get on the way to work or home, out in the shops or in a restaurant through there when the result goes wrong in one of their matches that you'd refereed. And it would be ranging from wee teenage neds on the street to absolute nutcases as well, **** that if you could mitigate it by giving/not giving the right 50/50s and saying you weren't close enough to judge the questionable challenges correctly. Have to agree with Levein's idea that more moneys needed to fund referees from the East coast and rest of Scotland to help prevent this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazzas right boot Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 11 minutes ago, SomethingAboutObua said: It surely is true tbh, we know the referees mostly coming from Lanarkshire/Glasgow, imagine the abuse you'd get on the way to work or home, out in the shops or in a restaurant through there when the result goes wrong in one of their matches that you'd refereed. And it would be ranging from wee teenage neds on the street to absolute nutcases as well, **** that if you could mitigate it by giving/not giving the right 50/50s and saying you weren't close enough to judge the questionable challenges correctly. Have to agree with Levein's idea that more moneys needed to fund referees from the East coast and rest of Scotland to help prevent this. If this is an issue then the refs should be sourced from elsewhere. Even England Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riccarton3 Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 10 minutes ago, SomethingAboutObua said: It surely is true tbh, we know the referees mostly coming from Lanarkshire/Glasgow, imagine the abuse you'd get on the way to work or home, out in the shops or in a restaurant through there when the result goes wrong in one of their matches that you'd refereed. And it would be ranging from wee teenage neds on the street to absolute nutcases as well, **** that if you could mitigate it by giving/not giving the right 50/50s and saying you weren't close enough to judge the questionable challenges correctly. Have to agree with Levein's idea that more moneys needed to fund referees from the East coast and rest of Scotland to help prevent this. The authorities would rather see that fear continue; it efficiently provides the desired results. The SFA cares about non OF clubs to the extent of them being in existence to provide opposition, however weak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4marsbars Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 8 hours ago, zakred said: I seem to remember we had a player sent off at Ibrox for Kicking a goal post, still he was the 4th that day!! He should just have throttled the post and given it a good shake (we now know). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 Sky are saying Robbie will get a 3 match ban because of suspended sanction from last season. BBC said earlier he has till November 4 to accept 1 match ban. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GinRummy Posted October 20, 2021 Author Share Posted October 20, 2021 7 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said: Sky are saying Robbie will get a 3 match ban because of suspended sanction from last season. BBC said earlier he has till November 4 to accept 1 match ban. Can’t remember what the suspended ban was for. Anybody any ideas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GinRummy Posted October 20, 2021 Author Share Posted October 20, 2021 18 minutes ago, 4marsbars said: He should just have throttled the post and given it a good shake (we now know). 😂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SomethingAboutObua Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 17 minutes ago, GinRummy said: Can’t remember what the suspended ban was for. Anybody any ideas? Shouting at John Beaton after we lost to Raith Rovers in January, 2 match band and 2 suspended. Surprised a suspended ban carries over that long Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GinRummy Posted October 20, 2021 Author Share Posted October 20, 2021 3 minutes ago, SomethingAboutObua said: Shouting at John Beaton after we lost to Raith Rovers in January, 2 match band and 2 suspended. Surprised a suspended ban carries over that long Thanks. Can’t remember that at all. 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
queensferryjambo Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 Not sure if this was a booking offence in the 90s. Weir did get booked in this game against Mallorca but not sure it was for this - not sure the ref saw it though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ri Alban Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 On 19/10/2021 at 08:13, Smith's right boot said: Yip. I don't think kingsley is losing sleep over it and rocking backward and forward as he slowly loses his mind after such a jarring incident. Who gives a feck if Kingsley loses any sleep or not. 2 red cards and it puts Hearts in a position to win and take the 3 points, leapfrogging Rangers to the top of the league. But carry on with yer defending Hearts out of winning the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazzas right boot Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, ri Alban said: Who gives a feck if Kingsley loses any sleep or not. 2 red cards and it puts Hearts in a position to win and take the 3 points, leapfrogging Rangers to the top of the league. But carry on with yer defending Hearts out of winning the game. Going your logic Kingsley would have been sent off as well for the retaliation anyway, so we'd also have been a man down. Handbags imo, it's a man game, after all. The Tackle /first touch was also booking imo, he got that right. The thing that pisses me off isn't these decisions, but if the roles were reversed they'd have been different outcomes - no doubt about that. Edited October 21, 2021 by Smith's right boot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogue Daddy Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 22 hours ago, zakred said: I seem to remember we had a player sent off at Ibrox for Kicking a goal post, still he was the 4th that day!! ...aye but goalposts cant defend themselves. That goalpost was out injured for 2-3 weeks IIRC. It's just our good luck that the GFA look out for defenseless goalposts.... at least at hunbrox. Justice for goalposts!!! 🤣🤣🤣 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogue Daddy Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 18 hours ago, Dallas Green said: I think what we can take away from the officials performance at Ibrox is that the standard of refereeing in this country is very bad. Boyce could have had a penalty, if you run across and block a player 30/40 yards from goal with no attempt to play the ball then it's a free kick. It might have been on the soft side but it was a foul, he obstructed his run. Do I think Rangers would have got that? Yes Aribo could have, probably should have, been sent off. He badly controlled the ball, lost it, then streched his leg out and lunged at the ball, missing it and catching Devlin. He was high and out of control, there is no way you can be in control at full stretch. Had Devlin done that to Aribo, would he have been sent off? Yes Boyce was onside, it didn't lead to a goal but we scored from a corner later in the game and were starting to impose on Rangers. We have seen in recent years offside goals from Rangers be scored against us. Bacuna should have been sent off for placing his hand around Kingsley's throat. If Kingsley had done that to Bacuna would he have been off? Yes but I think the fact Kingsley pushed Bacuna back is why the ref decided to do what he did. Still should have been a red for placing your hand on the throat of an opposition player. I don't think there is a conspiracy though, just a really poor standard of refs. Who are probably scared to give big decisions against the old firm at home (and sometimes away) 😂 ...good summation. But it's a complete joke that all our refs come from the west coast - there is definitely an argument for sourcing officials from down south or further afield... I mean, in the Spanish La Liga, I'm pretty sure that refs from Madrid are not allowed to officiate a Real game.... same with Barcelona IIRC. Can you imagine this in Scotland? It's the complete opposite - for an uglies game, it MUST be a west coast ref! Just another reason why our league set up is tinpot! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazzas right boot Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 1 hour ago, Rogue Daddy said: ...aye but goalposts cant defend themselves. That goalpost was out injured for 2-3 weeks IIRC. It's just our good luck that the GFA look out for defenseless goalposts.... at least at hunbrox. Justice for goalposts!!! 🤣🤣🤣 You mock, but GPLM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogue Daddy Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 17 minutes ago, Smith's right boot said: You mock, but GPLM. You're right. It's not funny... in fact, I believe the goalpost retired shortly afterwards, and due to his experiences, now identifies as a lamppost. Scottish football eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.