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Auldbenches
Just now, MoncurMacdonaldMercer said:


Just in case someone does chap your door mate - they might say they actually want to save you from that fate however it is described - precisely the reason they are chapping at your door

 

so it might be worth having a couple of follow up questions in reserve

I had then at my door about 8 years ago and it was a guy who I knew from walking my dog in the local forest.

Him and another guy and brought them into the kitchen before realising it was for that.

The strange thing is that they are your home talking what you know is shite but they have this way were you feel have to politely disagree without offending them.

It's them who's being a bit offensive bringing that fear riddled shite into your home.

Started going on about book of revelations doom and gloom type shite and all I could say was that I don't see things that way rather than just say they were talking pish.

 

Next time I'd just tell them that 666 was Nero and it's already happened. 

Though that'll probably keep them there longer trying to convince me otherwise. 

 

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Just now, Auldbenches said:

I had then at my door about 8 years ago and it was a guy who I knew from walking my dog in the local forest.

Him and another guy and brought them into the kitchen before realising it was for that.

The strange thing is that they are your home talking what you know is shite but they have this way were you feel have to politely disagree without offending them.

It's them who's being a bit offensive bringing that fear riddled shite into your home.

Started going on about book of revelations doom and gloom type shite and all I could say was that I don't see things that way rather than just say they were talking pish.

 

Next time I'd just tell them that 666 was Nero and it's already happened. 

Though that'll probably keep them there longer trying to convince me otherwise. 

 

 

No-one knocks at doors in Dublin these days for this type of thing - or if they do, they're getting through the streets at a very slow rate.

 

I've never had the opportunity to say anything to someone marketing religion, but if I did I'd like to think I'd just say "no thanks, I'm fine" and let them get on with it.  That's pretty much what I've done so far with anyone calling to offer me anything on my doorstep.

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MoncurMacdonaldMercer
7 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

No-one knocks at doors in Dublin these days for this type of thing - or if they do, they're getting through the streets at a very slow rate.

 

I've never had the opportunity to say anything to someone marketing religion, but if I did I'd like to think I'd just say "no thanks, I'm fine" and let them get on with it.  That's pretty much what I've done so far with anyone calling to offer me anything on my doorstep.


“no thanks “ etc seems the way to go

 

it’s worked for me too - to be fair some of the doorsteppers of all types can be very persistent and skilled at what they do so I can imagine sometimes it may take a slightly firmer “no thanks” without hopefully having to resort to the Doberman and baseball bat

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2 minutes ago, MoncurMacdonaldMercer said:


without hopefully having to resort to the Doberman and baseball bat

 

:laugh:

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21 minutes ago, Auldbenches said:

I had then at my door about 8 years ago and it was a guy who I knew from walking my dog in the local forest.

Him and another guy and brought them into the kitchen before realising it was for that.

The strange thing is that they are your home talking what you know is shite but they have this way were you feel have to politely disagree without offending them.

It's them who's being a bit offensive bringing that fear riddled shite into your home.

Started going on about book of revelations doom and gloom type shite and all I could say was that I don't see things that way rather than just say they were talking pish.

 

Next time I'd just tell them that 666 was Nero and it's already happened. 

Though that'll probably keep them there longer trying to convince me otherwise. 

 

 

17 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

No-one knocks at doors in Dublin these days for this type of thing - or if they do, they're getting through the streets at a very slow rate.

 

I've never had the opportunity to say anything to someone marketing religion, but if I did I'd like to think I'd just say "no thanks, I'm fine" and let them get on with it.  That's pretty much what I've done so far with anyone calling to offer me anything on my doorstep.

 

7 minutes ago, MoncurMacdonaldMercer said:


“no thanks “ etc seems the way to go

 

it’s worked for me too - to be fair some of the doorsteppers of all types can be very persistent and skilled at what they do so I can imagine sometimes it may take a slightly firmer “no thanks” without hopefully having to resort to the Doberman and baseball bat

Do what I do . Say your gay . They do a bolt ! 😂

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25 minutes ago, JamesM48 said:

 

 

Do what I do . Say your gay . They do a bolt ! 😂

 

I know someone who speaks Irish whenever he's approached by chuggers on the street.  Works like a charm.  He also uses it whenever he gets a real person making a scam call,

 

"Ah, bullaí fir (mná)!  An bhfuil seirbhís ar fáil uaibh trí mheán na Gaeilge?"

 

"Ah, good man (woman) yourself! Do you provide a service through the medium of Irish?"

 

He says it results in the caller immediately hanging up and ****ing off.  Result! :laugh:

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been here before

Death doesnt bother me, not one bit. When you're done, you're done. I remember doing nothing before I was born and imagine its the same when your times up.

 

Im not that sold on the idea of getting older but hopefully good genetics or a massive heart attack take care of that. Id hate to end up some shambling wreck with no idea where or who I am sitting in my own shit and pish although its probably better than sitting in someone elses.

 

Like most parents I hate the idea of not being there for my boys though.

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Auldbenches
1 hour ago, Ulysses said:

 

No-one knocks at doors in Dublin these days for this type of thing - or if they do, they're getting through the streets at a very slow rate.

 

I've never had the opportunity to say anything to someone marketing religion, but if I did I'd like to think I'd just say "no thanks, I'm fine" and let them get on with it.  That's pretty much what I've done so far with anyone calling to offer me anything on my doorstep.

I think it I wouldn't be offensive to anyone knocking on my door.  I don't agree but won't get aggressive with anyone about this 

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33 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

I know someone who speaks Irish whenever he's approached by chuggers on the street.  Works like a charm.  He also uses it whenever he gets a real person making a scam call,

 

"Ah, bullaí fir (mná)!  An bhfuil seirbhís ar fáil uaibh trí mheán na Gaeilge?"

 

"Ah, good man (woman) yourself! Do you provide a service through the medium of Irish?"

 

He says it results in the caller immediately hanging up and ****ing off.  Result! :laugh:

 

32 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

P.S.

 

Gay away the pray - Meme Guy

 

 

Lol 

14 minutes ago, Auldbenches said:

I think it I wouldn't be offensive to anyone knocking on my door.  I don't agree but won't get aggressive with anyone about this 

Yes but remember they are intruding on your private space by coming to your day . It’s your safe space and you shouldn’t be lectured regarding their dogma . I tend to just say “‘I’m not interested  “ then close the door . 

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Auldbenches
39 minutes ago, JamesM48 said:

 

Lol 

Yes but remember they are intruding on your private space by coming to your day . It’s your safe space and you shouldn’t be lectured regarding their dogma . I tend to just say “‘I’m not interested  “ then close the door . 

Just tell them you are already a member of a church and theyll get rid of them.   Unless they turn all old firm on you.

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Maple Leaf
2 hours ago, Auldbenches said:

I think it I wouldn't be offensive to anyone knocking on my door.  I don't agree but won't get aggressive with anyone about this 

 

2 hours ago, JamesM48 said:

 

Lol 

Yes but remember they are intruding on your private space by coming to your day . It’s your safe space and you shouldn’t be lectured regarding their dogma . I tend to just say “‘I’m not interested  “ then close the door . 

 

I tried the polite approach but they just kept coming.  Then I realised that they believe in the literal truth of the Bible, so I took a more aggressive approach when an older man and a young Black woman came a-knocking.

 

I ignored the old guy who was conducting the sales pitch and asked the young woman, "Why do you believe in a Bible that condones slavery?"  She was stunned and asked the guy "Is that true?"  He said that I was quoting the Bible out of context.  I said to her "He's lying to you, they all are.  Read Leviticus chapter 25 and judge for yourself."  The old man spun on his heel and walked away.

 

I never had them at my door ever again although I saw them on the street.  I think my house was declared off-limits.  :thumb:

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21 minutes ago, Maple Leaf said:

 

 

I tried the polite approach but they just kept coming.  Then I realised that they believe in the literal truth of the Bible, so I took a more aggressive approach when an older man and a young Black woman came a-knocking.

 

I ignored the old guy who was conducting the sales pitch and asked the young woman, "Why do you believe in a Bible that condones slavery?"  She was stunned and asked the guy "Is that true?"  He said that I was quoting the Bible out of context.  I said to her "He's lying to you, they all are.  Read Leviticus chapter 25 and judge for yourself."  The old man spun on his heel and walked away.

 

I never had them at my door ever again although I saw them on the street.  I think my house was declared off-limits.  :thumb:

Well

done ✔️ 

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Auldbenches
16 minutes ago, Maple Leaf said:

 

 

I tried the polite approach but they just kept coming.  Then I realised that they believe in the literal truth of the Bible, so I took a more aggressive approach when an older man and a young Black woman came a-knocking.

 

I ignored the old guy who was conducting the sales pitch and asked the young woman, "Why do you believe in a Bible that condones slavery?"  She was stunned and asked the guy "Is that true?"  He said that I was quoting the Bible out of context.  I said to her "He's lying to you, they all are.  Read Leviticus chapter 25 and judge for yourself."  The old man spun on his heel and walked away.

 

I never had them at my door ever again although I saw them on the street.  I think my house was declared off-limits.  :thumb:

Got a friend who got really offended by me referring to that chaplain we had at Hearts who was found to given sermons riddled with anti gay rhetoric.

I said he was one if those who tool the bible literally and in his role as a club chaplain it wasn't acceptable. 

How could a young player go and get objective advice on sexuality etc.

Maybe responded aggressively at me saying that.

It pisses you off. 

I should be more offended by him being offended by me having a different opinion.   It's like their value system is more important to them than yours is.  

It's like Rees mogg and politicians saying they have to bring their faith into their politics.  Only when it suits them.  Also says lots about poverty in the bible and they dont seem to be in a hurry to deal with this as they do abortion, sexually etc.

Utter hypocrisy.

Do we still have that same chaplain? 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Auldbenches said:

Just tell them you are already a member of a church and theyll get rid of them.   Unless they turn all old firm on you.

Like to see how they would get on in govan where I live. Lol 

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Auldbenches
Just now, gogs64 said:

Like to see how they would get on in govan where I live. Lol 

Do many rangers fans there actually go to church on a Sunday?  Pretty fervent about it at the football and wondering if they are that serious about it  

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1 hour ago, Auldbenches said:

Do many rangers fans there actually go to church on a Sunday?  Pretty fervent about it at the football and wondering if they are that serious about it  

 

I know a couple of orcs that have never set foot in the Kirk once, not even christened, but have a hun background so support them and the whole rancid subculture. That is their religion. 

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I used to be atheist but have shifted to agnostic as I've come to the conclusion the chance of there being something after death is more probable than nothing. Always better to keep an open mind anyway, atheists are too dogmatic and more fearful of checking out.   

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Auldbenches
1 hour ago, JackLadd said:

 

I know a couple of orcs that have never set foot in the Kirk once, not even christened, but have a hun background so support them and the whole rancid subculture. That is their religion. 

They get a football scarf when they are young and from then on they embrace everything connected to it. 

Noticed how they demand that it's called Derry not Londonderry but aren't that bothered about singing about Derry's walls or the Brigton Derry boys? 

It seems it's not that important if it doesn't fit the songs...

 

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Auldbenches
59 minutes ago, JackLadd said:

I used to be atheist but have shifted to agnostic as I've come to the conclusion the chance of there being something after death is more probable than nothing. Always better to keep an open mind anyway, atheists are too dogmatic and more fearful of checking out.   

Someone said that atheists have become more evangelical about that as those with beliefs.

Just let them get on with it. 

How often do you come across people trying to force their faith on you?  Not as much as atheists. 

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2 hours ago, JackLadd said:

I used to be atheist but have shifted to agnostic as I've come to the conclusion the chance of there being something after death is more probable than nothing. Always better to keep an open mind anyway, atheists are too dogmatic and more fearful of checking out.   

 

Come to the conclusion?  What evidence did you weigh up?

 

Most of my friends are atheists, as am I.  I don't know anyone of them who is fearful of checking out, because there's nothing to fear.

 

"Always better to keep an open mind".  My arse.  Either you believe or you don't.  If you do, get on your knees every day and get down to a place of worship for Friday prayers or Sunday service.  If you don't, stop with this "open mind" bollox.

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7 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

Come to the conclusion?  What evidence did you weigh up?

 

Most of my friends are atheists, as am I.  I don't know anyone of them who is fearful of checking out, because there's nothing to fear.

 

"Always better to keep an open mind".  My arse.  Either you believe or you don't.  If you do, get on your knees every day and get down to a place of worship for Friday prayers or Sunday service.  If you don't, stop with this "open mind" bollox.

 

I am not religious so why would I go to church services? Agnosticism isn't about believing anything, but your reaction proves my point about atheists having a fixed materialist dogma. Fact is your atheism is based on belief and conviction as much as any right wing Christian pounding a bible. The absence of positives doesn't prove a negative. There is probably more evidence for than against survival but you have to approach with an open mind. 

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9 hours ago, Auldbenches said:

Someone said that atheists have become more evangelical about that as those with beliefs.

Just let them get on with it. 

How often do you come across people trying to force their faith on you?  Not as much as atheists. 

 

Totally mate. It's a rigid belief system like believing every word of whatever holy book verbatim.

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9 hours ago, Auldbenches said:

They get a football scarf when they are young and from then on they embrace everything connected to it. 

Noticed how they demand that it's called Derry not Londonderry but aren't that bothered about singing about Derry's walls or the Brigton Derry boys? 

It seems it's not that important if it doesn't fit the songs...

 

 

Odd that such zealots that have never set foot in the Kirk or Norn Iron want to be buried in Derry or County Down with full military honours 😆 I am a Unionist myself but that is what I call baggage. 

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Auldbenches
1 minute ago, JackLadd said:

 

Odd that such zealots that have never set foot in the Kirk or Norn Iron want to be buried in Derry or County Down with full military honours 😆 I am a Unionist myself but that is what I call baggage. 

I don't understand why someone needs all the trimmings.  Sa you say, you be a unionist without having to be uber hun.  

Identify politics has gotten worse over the last few years.  Both sides can be guilty of this. 

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Maple Leaf
14 hours ago, Auldbenches said:

Someone said that atheists have become more evangelical about that as those with beliefs.

Just let them get on with it. 

How often do you come across people trying to force their faith on you?  Not as much as atheists. 

 

That's certainly not my experience. 

 

I belong to Humanist Canada, so I know literally dozens of atheists. When I'm chatting with those friends we're much, much more likely to discuss topics like climate change, women's rights, gay rights, medical assistance in dying and animal welfare, than other people's religious beliefs.  The notion of "forcing our faith" (non-belief in a god) on others is absurd.  Why would we do that?  Who cares?

 

By the way, my four closest and oldest friends are devout Christians, and when we get together the things we discuss are similar to the ones above, as well as sex and booze!! :wink:

 

And to pick up on some earlier posts in this thread, I've never had an atheist knocking on my door hoping to convert me.  

 

 

 

 

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Auldbenches
2 minutes ago, Maple Leaf said:

 

That's certainly not my experience. 

 

I belong to Humanist Canada, so I know literally dozens of atheists. When I'm chatting with those friends we're much, much more likely to discuss topics like climate change, women's rights, gay rights, medical assistance in dying and animal welfare, than other people's religious beliefs.  The notion of "forcing our faith" (non-belief in a god) on others is absurd.  Why would we do that?  Who cares?

 

By the way, my four closest and oldest friends are devout Christians, and when we get together the things we discuss are similar to the ones above, as well as sex and booze!! :wink:

 

And to pick up on some earlier posts in this thread, I've never had an atheist knocking on my door hoping to convert me.  

 

 

 

 

Atheist myself.  It's more about what frankie Boyle said regarding famous ones. 

Apart from the odd jehovah, how often does it happen just going about your daily business? 

Chatting with friends is a lot different from strangers forcing things on you.

I just think most people of faith also just get on with it and get branded by a few door chapters.

Last time on a train etc a stranger went on about it? 

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14 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

Come to the conclusion?  What evidence did you weigh up?

 

Most of my friends are atheists, as am I.  I don't know anyone of them who is fearful of checking out, because there's nothing to fear.

 

"Always better to keep an open mind".  My arse.  Either you believe or you don't.  If you do, get on your knees every day and get down to a place of worship for Friday prayers or Sunday service.  If you don't, stop with this "open mind" bollox.

Kinda proves the boys point.

Open mind receives information and opinion

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Jambo-Jimbo
54 minutes ago, Auldbenches said:

Atheist myself.  It's more about what frankie Boyle said regarding famous ones. 

Apart from the odd jehovah, how often does it happen just going about your daily business? 

Chatting with friends is a lot different from strangers forcing things on you.

I just think most people of faith also just get on with it and get branded by a few door chapters.

Last time on a train etc a stranger went on about it? 

 

Pre-pandemic probably more often then you'd think or realise, because a lot of it is so ingrained in soceity that people don't notice it.

 

Just 3 of the top of my head.

The church of scientology lot in Edinburgh often stopped people in the street, so I've been told.

And who are the lot that encourged people to come in and take some sort of test, might have been the above lot.

I have seen the Mormons in Galashiels, handing out leaflets etc, trying to get people to come along to their church in the town.

Every year I got a Christian Aid envelope shoved through my letterbox and collected a few days later and the woman collecting it, expected money to be in it (she got nothing from me).

 

But the biggest one of all, has to be the schools, do they still have assemby and recite the lords prayer or some other prayer, religious education in my day was nothing more than christian propaganda classes, because that's all the teacher talked about Jesus & Christianity, they even forced a laddie in my class who was a Sikh to attend these christian classes.  Hopefully it's all changed now.

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HeartsandonlyHearts
On 15/09/2021 at 05:13, Jamstomorrow said:

Best way to go . . . shot by a jealous husband.

 

Reincarnation . . .   ladies bicycle seat.

I’m coming back as a lesbian. A man trapped in a woman’s body.

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Japan Jambo
On 15/09/2021 at 13:34, ri Alban said:

If I hadn't met my wife, I'd probably be dead already. 

 

I get the motivation of now wanting to leave her the money but you could always give it to the cat and dog home...

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davemclaren
On 20/09/2021 at 20:41, Greedy Jambo said:

It's a shame that the older generation is dying out, but it's probably for the best. 

Only the lucky get old. 

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4 hours ago, Jamhammer said:

Kinda proves the boys point.

Open mind receives information and opinion

 

Kinda doesn't prove the boy's point.  Be open to evidence, but don't waste your time "being open" to the random thoughts of people who feel a need to believe in the supernatural.  If there's good cause for their ideas, they'll have something to show and tell.  If they've nothing to show and tell, why waste time on it?

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10 hours ago, JackLadd said:

 

I am not religious so why would I go to church services? Agnosticism isn't about believing anything, but your reaction proves my point about atheists having a fixed materialist dogma. Fact is your atheism is based on belief and conviction as much as any right wing Christian pounding a bible. The absence of positives doesn't prove a negative. There is probably more evidence for than against survival but you have to approach with an open mind. 

 

My reaction doesn't prove anything, so there's no need to be defensive.  Either you believe, or you don't.  Either you have evidence, or you don't.  Or, in the case of those who say they don't believe but they're keeping an open mind, they like the veneer of pretending to be rationalist while actually being superstitious.  There's nothing wrong with a person having religious faith if it makes them feel better, so if you have it, embrace it. 

 

The absence of positives doesn't prove anything, let alone a negative.  Which means that in the absence of positives it's generally a bad idea to fill in the gaps with your own imagination, and generally a worse idea still to fill in the gaps with someone else's imagination.  But each to their own.

 

I'm not sure at all what you're getting at in your last sentence.

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47 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

Kinda doesn't prove the boy's point.  Be open to evidence, but don't waste your time "being open" to the random thoughts of people who feel a need to believe in the supernatural.  If there's good cause for their ideas, they'll have something to show and tell.  If they've nothing to show and tell, why waste time on it?

Because you understand more.

I once did a comparative religion course with work

10 weeks, 10 different faiths

Each speaker brought wee treats

I knew very little about any of em apart from Christianity. Now I do.

I could have just said “All organised religion is bollocks”. I’m glad I didn’t.

 

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MoncurMacdonaldMercer
2 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

Kinda doesn't prove the boy's point.  Be open to evidence, but don't waste your time "being open" to the random thoughts of people who feel a need to believe in the supernatural.  If there's good cause for their ideas, they'll have something to show and tell.  If they've nothing to show and tell, why waste time on it?


experience of being wrong in the past does that count as evidence?
 

various things I could have never foreseen and the younger me would have dismissed them out of hand an obvious one being hearts hibs and rangers all being in the 2nd tier of Scottish football at the same time 

 

lots more examples of being totally blind-sided by experience

 

if I’m now sure that there is nothing beyond does it count as evidence that it wouldn’t be the first time I’ve been sure and subsequently been wrong - an open mind of say 1% even?

 

 

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2 hours ago, Jamhammer said:

Because you understand more.

I once did a comparative religion course with work

10 weeks, 10 different faiths

Each speaker brought wee treats

I knew very little about any of em apart from Christianity. Now I do.

I could have just said “All organised religion is bollocks”. I’m glad I didn’t.

 

 

Yes, but what's that got to do with evidence of the supernatural?  Organised religion might be bollocks to one person and not to another, but it isn't evidence of the existence of the supernatural.  On the other hand, it is evidence of people's willingness to - to use my language above - fill in the gaps in their knowledge with someone else's imagination, and allow themselves to be organised into groups for that purpose.

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1 hour ago, MoncurMacdonaldMercer said:


experience of being wrong in the past does that count as evidence?
 

various things I could have never foreseen and the younger me would have dismissed them out of hand an obvious one being hearts hibs and rangers all being in the 2nd tier of Scottish football at the same time 

 

lots more examples of being totally blind-sided by experience

 

if I’m now sure that there is nothing beyond does it count as evidence that it wouldn’t be the first time I’ve been sure and subsequently been wrong - an open mind of say 1% even?

 

 

 

Hearts, Hibs and Rangers all being in the second tier of Scottish football at the one time?  Quite.

 

There are lots of things I couldn't have foreseen when I was younger, and lots of things I maybe could have, but still didn't, because youth is like that.  Where's the evidence for the supernatural?

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MoncurMacdonaldMercer
34 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

Hearts, Hibs and Rangers all being in the second tier of Scottish football at the one time?  Quite.

 

There are lots of things I couldn't have foreseen when I was younger, and lots of things I maybe could have, but still didn't, because youth is like that.  Where's the evidence for the supernatural?

 

i don’t know if there is any evidence for the supernatural (although someone said they saw a ghost on the bypass on this thread)

 

when i mentioned youth I didn’t mean it as lack of foresight more me being less aware of my limitations

 

now as not so youthful there will still be a number of things I think I have the answer to but it could transpire that I actually didn’t - almost certainly some stuff of which the existence of supernatural may be one

 

assuming no evidence for the supernatural do we just go with that or do we leave a percentage point or two for there is evidence we just haven’t found it yet ?

 

im no expert on the flat-earth thing but at some point was there no known evidence of the world being other than flat?

 

numbers of diseases were assumed to be occurring at random until evidence was later found that a big part of it wasn’t random 

 

that sort of thing - an acceptance that the study is work-in-progress and (only) at this stage there is no evidence 

 

obviously there is like the ghost on the bypass but for the sake of debate assuming there is currently no evidence 

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24 minutes ago, MoncurMacdonaldMercer said:

 

i don’t know if there is any evidence for the supernatural (although someone said they saw a ghost on the bypass on this thread)

 

when i mentioned youth I didn’t mean it as lack of foresight more me being less aware of my limitations

 

now as not so youthful there will still be a number of things I think I have the answer to but it could transpire that I actually didn’t - almost certainly some stuff of which the existence of supernatural may be one

 

assuming no evidence for the supernatural do we just go with that or do we leave a percentage point or two for there is evidence we just haven’t found it yet ?

 

im no expert on the flat-earth thing but at some point was there no known evidence of the world being other than flat?

 

numbers of diseases were assumed to be occurring at random until evidence was later found that a big part of it wasn’t random 

 

that sort of thing - an acceptance that the study is work-in-progress and (only) at this stage there is no evidence 

 

obviously there is like the ghost on the bypass but for the sake of debate assuming there is currently no evidence 

 

1% for what?  There's no evidence for the existence of hollow pink unicorns, but the absence of evidence is not the same as the evidence.  So therefore should we take seriously the possibility that there are hollow pink unicorns?  I can probably dream up loads of other examples that are equally invalid.  The notion of "God" has precisely the same amount of evidence to support it as do hollow pink unicorns.  It doesn't mean that neither exist; it just means that people who want us to believe they exist need to work a bit harder to find evidence of that.

 

The diseases example isn't a good one.  Why?  Because the diseases were happening, so there was clear evidence that something was happening.  But there's no evidence of any description at all for the notion of a supernatural being that did (or does) stuff like create the universe, exist outside the natural rules of that universe, and change the rules of that universe by its own decision.  But also, if you accept unknown diseases and random causes as a good parallel for the creation of the universe, your starting point shouldn't be that the universe was made by a supernatural being - it should be that it came about randomly.

 

The thing about believers is that they need to believe.  If they didn't need to, they wouldn't bother.  But also, they need to have their belief validated, which is one of the reasons why they congregate in organised groups.  That's a bit of a problem for non-believers like me.  I'd like to be able to sit back, relax and say that I don't really know what happened, so there's no harm in speculating any list of causes that people come up with for the origin of the universe.  In fact, most of the time I sit back and never give the subject too much thought.  But if you leave that wriggle room when engaging with a believer, they are very likely to assume that it's OK to leap in with their imagined speculation - or the speculation that others imagined and turned into a religious system - and say it must be the truth. 

 

I have no idea how the universe came out, and neither do believers.  We shouldn't fill that space with fantasies and notions and then try to label them as truths.

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On 22/09/2021 at 10:19, Auldbenches said:

I think it I wouldn't be offensive to anyone knocking on my door.  I don't agree but won't get aggressive with anyone about this 

Not door knocking but my wifes brother since her death has been phoning me regularly, to see how I am doing and of course to impart his Jehovah Witness spiel. The last time a couple of weeks ago I lost my temper and let it all out. A few days ago  I open my mail box and again as has happened before there is an envelope containing JW literature which was promptly assigned to the garbage basket. 

I have taken the time to do some research on the JW religion. I intend to interject my knowledge on its 1800's founder, the fact there I believe is no Jehovah in the Bible but that name is taken from a translation of a word used by the Jewish. I am interested to hear his responses if he does ever call me again.

 

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MoncurMacdonaldMercer
2 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

1% for what?  There's no evidence for the existence of hollow pink unicorns, but the absence of evidence is not the same as the evidence.  So therefore should we take seriously the possibility that there are hollow pink unicorns?  I can probably dream up loads of other examples that are equally invalid.  The notion of "God" has precisely the same amount of evidence to support it as do hollow pink unicorns.  It doesn't mean that neither exist; it just means that people who want us to believe they exist need to work a bit harder to find evidence of that.

 

The diseases example isn't a good one.  Why?  Because the diseases were happening, so there was clear evidence that something was happening.  But there's no evidence of any description at all for the notion of a supernatural being that did (or does) stuff like create the universe, exist outside the natural rules of that universe, and change the rules of that universe by its own decision.  But also, if you accept unknown diseases and random causes as a good parallel for the creation of the universe, your starting point shouldn't be that the universe was made by a supernatural being - it should be that it came about randomly.

 

The thing about believers is that they need to believe.  If they didn't need to, they wouldn't bother.  But also, they need to have their belief validated, which is one of the reasons why they congregate in organised groups.  That's a bit of a problem for non-believers like me.  I'd like to be able to sit back, relax and say that I don't really know what happened, so there's no harm in speculating any list of causes that people come up with for the origin of the universe.  In fact, most of the time I sit back and never give the subject too much thought.  But if you leave that wriggle room when engaging with a believer, they are very likely to assume that it's OK to leap in with their imagined speculation - or the speculation that others imagined and turned into a religious system - and say it must be the truth. 

 

I have no idea how the universe came out, and neither do believers.  We shouldn't fill that space with fantasies and notions and then try to label them as truths.


the crux of my post was as our knowledge is incomplete on many things does that merit having a percent or two of an open mind in respect of what we don’t know - not for you as it appears as demonstrated by your hollow pink unicorn example which is absolutely fine 

 

i leave a per cent or two open even for the existence of those unicorns 🦄 :)

 

Edited by MoncurMacdonaldMercer
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Auldbenches
3 hours ago, Sharpie said:

Not door knocking but my wifes brother since her death has been phoning me regularly, to see how I am doing and of course to impart his Jehovah Witness spiel. The last time a couple of weeks ago I lost my temper and let it all out. A few days ago  I open my mail box and again as has happened before there is an envelope containing JW literature which was promptly assigned to the garbage basket. 

I have taken the time to do some research on the JW religion. I intend to interject my knowledge on its 1800's founder, the fact there I believe is no Jehovah in the Bible but that name is taken from a translation of a word used by the Jewish. I am interested to hear his responses if he does ever call me again.

 

Knowing someone who has or is going through an en extremely emotional is beyond it.   

Even worse here in that he will have told others involved that he knows a family member going through this and would be a good time to 'force' their religion on them.   

Shows it has nothing to do with your wellbeing and everything about trying to gain for his church.

How can they not just offer unconditional support and comfort at this time rather than trying to cash on someone's loss? 

I hope it's both barrels Bob when they try and get back to you. 

 

 

Wee point about the mormons as well.

The guy who set them up said he had a vision to build his church etc, and god told him polygamy was central to it.   The American government then ban polygamy and coincidentally, the leader of their church at the time gets another vision the day before the law changes and is told by god that polygamy is now no longer acceptable to him.

Very handy. 

 

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4 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

1% for what?  There's no evidence for the existence of hollow pink unicorns, but the absence of evidence is not the same as the evidence.  So therefore should we take seriously the possibility that there are hollow pink unicorns?  I can probably dream up loads of other examples that are equally invalid.  The notion of "God" has precisely the same amount of evidence to support it as do hollow pink unicorns.  It doesn't mean that neither exist; it just means that people who want us to believe they exist need to work a bit harder to find evidence of that.

 

The diseases example isn't a good one.  Why?  Because the diseases were happening, so there was clear evidence that something was happening.  But there's no evidence of any description at all for the notion of a supernatural being that did (or does) stuff like create the universe, exist outside the natural rules of that universe, and change the rules of that universe by its own decision.  But also, if you accept unknown diseases and random causes as a good parallel for the creation of the universe, your starting point shouldn't be that the universe was made by a supernatural being - it should be that it came about randomly.

 

The thing about believers is that they need to believe.  If they didn't need to, they wouldn't bother.  But also, they need to have their belief validated, which is one of the reasons why they congregate in organised groups.  That's a bit of a problem for non-believers like me.  I'd like to be able to sit back, relax and say that I don't really know what happened, so there's no harm in speculating any list of causes that people come up with for the origin of the universe.  In fact, most of the time I sit back and never give the subject too much thought.  But if you leave that wriggle room when engaging with a believer, they are very likely to assume that it's OK to leap in with their imagined speculation - or the speculation that others imagined and turned into a religious system - and say it must be the truth. 

 

I have no idea how the universe came out, and neither do believers.  We shouldn't fill that space with fantasies and notions and then try to label them as truths.

giphy.gif?cid=82a1493bv4y73uaa852cf5r5ni

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Auldbenches
1 hour ago, ri Alban said:

giphy.gif?cid=82a1493bv4y73uaa852cf5r5ni

I think you've got that wrong.  It's the beard as most there actually looking for nessie are English.

Notice how most sightings in the past were by people who own guest houses?  

We aren't that stupid. 

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13 minutes ago, Auldbenches said:

I think you've got that wrong.  It's the beard as most there actually looking for nessie are English.

Notice how most sightings in the past were by people who own guest houses?  

We aren't that stupid. 

Are you sure? :D

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Jambo-Jimbo
3 hours ago, Auldbenches said:

Wee point about the mormons as well.

The guy who set them up said he had a vision to build his church etc, and god told him polygamy was central to it.   The American government then ban polygamy and coincidentally, the leader of their church at the time gets another vision the day before the law changes and is told by god that polygamy is now no longer acceptable to him.

Very handy. 

 

 

Those wonderful god visions.

 

I've also had a vision, for only a small donation of £10 I'll tell you all about it.   :laugh:

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Death will come to us all at some point but we don't know when that might be. I lost my youngest son in an accident 9 months ago and have just found out that a good friend has terminal cancer so the moral of the story is get out there and live your life now because you just don't know when it will end. 

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