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Minimum wage query


Norm

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My employer pays minimum wage (or NLW if you prefer). They stipulate that staff must change in to uniform on the premises before their shift starts, and must change out of uniform after the end of the shift before heading home. 

 

Am I right in saying that this breaches the rules, and staff must be paid for that time? 

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31 minutes ago, Norm said:

My employer pays minimum wage (or NLW if you prefer). They stipulate that staff must change in to uniform on the premises before their shift starts, and must change out of uniform after the end of the shift before heading home. 

 

Am I right in saying that this breaches the rules, and staff must be paid for that time? 

If they will not allow you to arrive at work and get ready/put on your uniform from the time your shift starts as per their rota, and do get ready to leave in time for the end of your shift then yes, you should get paid.

Be careful how you go about challenging it though, I'd recommend going through a union rather than trying to go solo, or even as a small group. They'll use every trick in the book to try and "divide and conquer" you. The union will be able to communicate in clear and unarguable terms if it's as clear cut as you've made out.

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1 minute ago, hughesie27 said:

If they will not allow you to arrive at work and get ready/put on your uniform from the time your shift starts as per their rota, and do get ready to leave in time for the end of your shift then yes, you should get paid.

Be careful how you go about challenging it though, I'd recommend going through a union rather than trying to go solo, or even as a small group. They'll use every trick in the book to try and "divide and conquer" you. The union will be able to communicate in clear and unarguable terms if it's as clear cut as you've made out.

We have no Union representation, and anyone else I've mentioned it too doesn't seem interested. I've already had a department head have a go at me for "trying to stir up trouble" when I queried it. 

 

I'm still on my probation period so a little bit nervous now, however after checking, if they refuse to hire me at the end of it, they would need to have a damn good reason to avoid an unfair dismissal claim. Up until now, they've been very complimentary and even doubled my contracted hours so, to me, it would be very suss if they suddenly decided not to make the role permanent. Even on a probation period, it appears employers can't sack you or refuse to hire you for asking for your legal employment rights. 

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6 minutes ago, Norm said:

We have no Union representation, and anyone else I've mentioned it too doesn't seem interested. I've already had a department head have a go at me for "trying to stir up trouble" when I queried it. 

 

I'm still on my probation period so a little bit nervous now, however after checking, if they refuse to hire me at the end of it, they would need to have a damn good reason to avoid an unfair dismissal claim. Up until now, they've been very complimentary and even doubled my contracted hours so, to me, it would be very suss if they suddenly decided not to make the role permanent. Even on a probation period, it appears employers can't sack you or refuse to hire you for asking for your legal employment rights. 

They can't. But I doubt it would be hard for an employer to find a reason to sack someone on probation. Especially if as you say you have no Union to look for advice from. 

When yous ay no Union representation do you actually mean there are no unions for your sector? Or just that you aren't signed up to one yet?

 

I have also heard that employers can quite easily sack someone even after probation, if it is within the first 2 years of employment. I'm sure I read that on here but don't know much about it.

 

How much time are we talking that it impacts before and after? Is there a reasonable need for them to ask you to not wear uniform before or after work?

 

Edited by hughesie27
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Doctor FinnBarr
11 minutes ago, Norm said:

We have no Union representation, and anyone else I've mentioned it too doesn't seem interested. I've already had a department head have a go at me for "trying to stir up trouble" when I queried it. 

 

I'm still on my probation period so a little bit nervous now, however after checking, if they refuse to hire me at the end of it, they would need to have a damn good reason to avoid an unfair dismissal claim. Up until now, they've been very complimentary and even doubled my contracted hours so, to me, it would be very suss if they suddenly decided not to make the role permanent. Even on a probation period, it appears employers can't sack you or refuse to hire you for asking for your legal employment rights. 

 

They don't need a reason if you've been employed for less than 2 years Norm, thank Thatcher for that belter.

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Just now, hughesie27 said:

They can't. But I doubt it would be hard for an employer to find a reason to sack someone on probation. Especially if as you say you have no Union to look for advice from. 

When yous ay no Union representation do you actually mean there are no unions for your sector? Or just that you aren't signed up to one yet?

 

I have also heard that employers can quite easily sack someone even after probation, if it is within the first 2 years of employment. I'm sure I read that on here but don't know much about it.

 

How much time are we talking that it impacts before and after?

 

Employers can easily sack someone within the first 2 years. The only reason they need to give is "business requirements".

 

However, they're desperate for staff, hiring anyone they can, so I'd assume a decent solicitor (I have personal protection insurance, I think it's called, which covers costs for exactly this type of thing) could argue that the reason was clearly based on me raising a grievance if all other evidence points towards me being a good worker, while they are still hiring. 

 

Time wise, it's about 5-10 minutes before the shift, and probably 5 minutes at the end. So 10-15 minutes per shift. 

 

Regarding unions, there's no representation at work, but Unite do represent people in the industry. 

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2 minutes ago, FinnBarr Saunders said:

 

They don't need a reason if you've been employed for less than 2 years Norm, thank Thatcher for that belter.

They can use the "business requirements" argument, but as mentioned above, that's not foolproof. Don't want to blow my own trumpet, but I'm bloody good at what I do and I'd think a decent solicitor could argue the case that it was based on raising a grievance. 

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5 hours ago, Awbdy Oot said:

At Amazon they don't pay you for loading the van and then reaching the first stop, which could be all in 1 and half hours. I questioned this and they just tell you "If you don't like it leave"  Something needs to be done about companies like this, being allowed to rob self employed folk of everything. They also tell you can pick your own hours, no you can't, if you don't want to work a certain day, soon they bin you. The teams of drivers who do this, are only self employed by name, so they need to pay for everything and have no rights to holiday or sick pay . 

 

Anyway, what was the question again?

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magic roundabout

Unfortunately this sort of behaviour is rife in low paid work. I worked as a delivery driver for Dominions for a few months about 8 years ago. They would give you start but didn't log you into the system - which was linked to the payroll until it got busy. I could be in the shop for an hour before they logged me in. As said difficult to do anything until you hit the two year mark. However, hope you get it sorted. 

Edited by magic roundabout
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Honestly feel sorry for anyone who has to work these low paid minimum wage jobs with little appreciation for the job one does. Did it for long enough and know how they can treat employees.

 

Good luck to the OP. Of every employee stuck up for the basic workers rights then employers would soon start buckling to demands. Far to many just accept shoddy treatment 

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An employer can let you go for any reason they want until you've served two years.

Used to be 6 months but guess who changed that?

 

So anybody that brings up poor working conditions or dodgy timekeeping/pay practises is simply let go.

I know plenty of companies that as a rule never keep on any staff long enough for them to qualify for legal protection.

 

Of course, if they let you go for being pregnant/black/gay etc etc then you can sue their erses off.

Other than that, you have no recourse for unfair dismissal.

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3 hours ago, ri Alban said:

At Amazon they don't pay you for loading the van and then reaching the first stop, which could be all in 1 and half hours. I questioned this and they just tell you "If you don't like it leave"  Something needs to be done about companies like this, being allowed to rob self employed folk of everything. They also tell you can pick your own hours, no you can't, if you don't want to work a certain day, soon they bin you. The teams of drivers who do this, are only self employed by name, so they need to pay for everything and have no rights to holiday or sick pay . 

 

Anyway, what was the question again?

Amazon where you are drug tested , the testing was a joke, passed it and was due to collect my boots, got another 

job elsewhere.

You are timed on the work you do, what a carry on.

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15 minutes ago, Cade said:

An employer can let you go for any reason they want until you've served two years.

 

Nope. That's not true. 

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7 minutes ago, Harry Potter said:

Amazon where you are drug tested , the testing was a joke, passed it and was due to collect my boots, got another 

job elsewhere.

You are timed on the work you do, what a carry on.

The blue bin, shed, Treehouse, cellar, porch and any other place is your friend. Only the places with flats, like the west end of Glasgow are the stuff of nightmares.

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2 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

The blue bin, shed, Treehouse, cellar, porch and any other place is your friend. Only the places with flats, like the west end of Glasgow are the stuff of nightmares.

😏

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1 hour ago, Cade said:

An employer can let you go for any reason they want until you've served two years.

Used to be 6 months but guess who changed that?

 

So anybody that brings up poor working conditions or dodgy timekeeping/pay practises is simply let go.

I know plenty of companies that as a rule never keep on any staff long enough for them to qualify for legal protection.

 

Of course, if they let you go for being pregnant/black/gay etc etc then you can sue their erses off.

Other than that, you have no recourse for unfair dismissal.

You're also protected if you have asked for your legal rights at work (for example NLW) or raised an action regarding health and safety. 

 

Too many employers think the "no reason if less than 2 years" protects them. It doesn't. If you were dismissed due to discrimination or "automatically unfair reasons" (stating legal rights, health and safety rights and a few others), you can claim unfair dismissal regardless of how long you've worked there. 

 

 

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Employers taking the piss is nothing new. Had it from my very first job.

 

My first job stacking shelves over 28 years ago the managers said if we didn't empty all the cages and have the shelves stacked we'd be made to clock out and then stay till we had finished

All us school workers just agreed except me...I asked if we were still insured to work if we did that.

They quickly reversed the decision.

 

I have one of the older guys who worked during the day to thank for that..he overheard us getting a row from the boss and as he clocked out he whispered it to a few of us as he left and said "Dinnae take shit from bullies wee man. Just cause they pay you don't mean they own you".

 

When I worked for Black Horse finance I never got a decent appraisal which meant a reduced bonus.

How was I encouraged to hit my targets?

Come in early and work the queues to boost my numbers because that's what other folk do.

 

Work for free to get more money..when actually all the hours extra you worked were less than the bonus. 

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36 minutes ago, Norm said:

You're also protected if you have asked for your legal rights at work (for example NLW) or raised an action regarding health and safety. 

 

Too many employers think the "no reason if less than 2 years" protects them. It doesn't. If you were dismissed due to discrimination or "automatically unfair reasons" (stating legal rights, health and safety rights and a few others), you can claim unfair dismissal regardless of how long you've worked there. 

 

 

The problem being that his employer could find something else to sack him for.

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5 minutes ago, hughesie27 said:

The problem being that his employer could find something else to sack him for.

They could, but they'll have a difficult job. The day before I raised the issue, we had some team bonding pish. I literally have a sheet of paper from 2 managers stating I'm a great addition to the team. Hard worker. All that jazz. I'm also the only member of staff who actually seems to fill in any of the compliance stuff. 

 

In a way, I'm almost hoping they do fire me to see what would happen. I have legal cover on my home insurance that would pay for any costs. It's a ****ing minimum wage job, there's plenty going about just now, so I could get another one. 

 

 

The thing is... I actually quite like it there. I'm not even bothered about the money. I just thought I should point it out to them, in case they ended up on the named and shamed list. 

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10 minutes ago, Norm said:

They could, but they'll have a difficult job. The day before I raised the issue, we had some team bonding pish. I literally have a sheet of paper from 2 managers stating I'm a great addition to the team. Hard worker. All that jazz. I'm also the only member of staff who actually seems to fill in any of the compliance stuff. 

 

In a way, I'm almost hoping they do fire me to see what would happen. I have legal cover on my home insurance that would pay for any costs. It's a ****ing minimum wage job, there's plenty going about just now, so I could get another one. 

 

 

The thing is... I actually quite like it there. I'm not even bothered about the money. I just thought I should point it out to them, in case they ended up on the named and shamed list. 

 

My advice...let them worry about that. You're not paid enough for you to even spend one iota of time thinking about it. If it's not about the money and you quite like it there then forget about it and go and enjoy your work.

 

👍

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Might be going against the grain a bit here and i know some employers take the piss but is it really such a big deal to be asking that staff are ready to work from the point they start getting paid?

 

Personally i'm always at my desk with laptop running and coffee in hand by the time i'm meant to start, especially in pre-covid times i'd see folk wander in bang on 9 then spend 10-15 mins getting their jacket off, stuff out their locker, grabbing a coffee and then actually start work by 9.15 if they are lucky.

 

Even doing my saturday job in a chemist when I was at school, I was always there at 8.50 to get my jacket off, uniform on (white lab coat so wasn't yesterday) and ready to open the door bang on 9am

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3 minutes ago, Ribble said:

Might be going against the grain a bit here and i know some employers take the piss but is it really such a big deal to be asking that staff are ready to work from the point they start getting paid?

 

Personally i'm always at my desk with laptop running and coffee in hand by the time i'm meant to start, especially in pre-covid times i'd see folk wander in bang on 9 then spend 10-15 mins getting their jacket off, stuff out their locker, grabbing a coffee and then actually start work by 9.15 if they are lucky.

 

Even doing my saturday job in a chemist when I was at school, I was always there at 8.50 to get my jacket off, uniform on (white lab coat so wasn't yesterday) and ready to open the door bang on 9am

Were you being paid minimum wage? When company's are paying a decent wage or salary, then absolutely they can ask for this. When they're paying the lowest possible sum they can legally get away with, then screw you out a bit more, that's a different story. 

 

I worked it out. It's about £2-300 a year difference. For folk on minimum wage, that's not a poor sum of money. 

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32 minutes ago, Ribble said:

Might be going against the grain a bit here and i know some employers take the piss but is it really such a big deal to be asking that staff are ready to work from the point they start getting paid?

 

Personally i'm always at my desk with laptop running and coffee in hand by the time i'm meant to start, especially in pre-covid times i'd see folk wander in bang on 9 then spend 10-15 mins getting their jacket off, stuff out their locker, grabbing a coffee and then actually start work by 9.15 if they are lucky.

 

Even doing my saturday job in a chemist when I was at school, I was always there at 8.50 to get my jacket off, uniform on (white lab coat so wasn't yesterday) and ready to open the door bang on 9am

 

Depends what you class as their work starting I guess. If you need to wear something specific for work and you can't/are not allowed to travel in it then as soon as you arrive and start getting changed, for me that's when you've started.

Is having to change into your uniform (that your employer wants you to wear) any different to going and connecting a keg before starting to pour a beer?

 

Does a driver's day start when he gets wheels rolling; strapping his load; vehicle checks done; or keys in for example? 

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31 minutes ago, Norm said:

Were you being paid minimum wage? When company's are paying a decent wage or salary, then absolutely they can ask for this. When they're paying the lowest possible sum they can legally get away with, then screw you out a bit more, that's a different story. 

 

I worked it out. It's about £2-300 a year difference. For folk on minimum wage, that's not a poor sum of money. 

 

At the chemist? Yes, £2.17 an hour

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43 minutes ago, Ribble said:

Might be going against the grain a bit here and i know some employers take the piss but is it really such a big deal to be asking that staff are ready to work from the point they start getting paid?

 

Personally i'm always at my desk with laptop running and coffee in hand by the time i'm meant to start, especially in pre-covid times i'd see folk wander in bang on 9 then spend 10-15 mins getting their jacket off, stuff out their locker, grabbing a coffee and then actually start work by 9.15 if they are lucky.

 

Even doing my saturday job in a chemist when I was at school, I was always there at 8.50 to get my jacket off, uniform on (white lab coat so wasn't yesterday) and ready to open the door bang on 9am

That's a good work ethic to have, my lad is constantly running out the door leaving no room to spare to get to his work on time. The last office based job I had there were ***** coming in and making porridge, bowls of cereal etc. before getting started. It was flexi though so I am sure not all of them were at it, but likely a good few were.

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4 minutes ago, CostaJambo said:

That's a good work ethic to have, my lad is constantly running out the door leaving no room to spare to get to his work on time. The last office based job I had there were ***** coming in and making porridge, bowls of cereal etc. before getting started. It was flexi though so I am sure not all of them were at it, but likely a good few were.

 

Yeah, had flexi at last place and plenty of folk were at it, knew a good few that would come in at 7.30am knowing full well that none of the bosses were in until at least an hour later, on the few occasions that I was in that early they were all sat around having breakfast and a blether and laptops not even turned on until after 8.

 

My more general point is that an employer asking folks to be ready to work at a given time isn't unreasonable, pretty sure there are very few of us that don't have an extra coffee break, sit/stand chatting to a co-worker, take slightly longer than needed on the bog, be a minute or two late back from a break etc etc so a few minutes at the start and end of a shift to change into uniform isn't unreasonable to me, when you get into hours etc then totally agree that the employer is taking the piss but for a minimum wage job i'm pretty sure i could get changed into uniform in a couple of mins

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2 minutes ago, Ribble said:

 

Yeah, had flexi at last place and plenty of folk were at it, knew a good few that would come in at 7.30am knowing full well that none of the bosses were in until at least an hour later, on the few occasions that I was in that early they were all sat around having breakfast and a blether and laptops not even turned on until after 8.

 

My more general point is that an employer asking folks to be ready to work at a given time isn't unreasonable, pretty sure there are very few of us that don't have an extra coffee break, sit/stand chatting to a co-worker, take slightly longer than needed on the bog, be a minute or two late back from a break etc etc so a few minutes at the start and end of a shift to change into uniform isn't unreasonable to me, when you get into hours etc then totally agree that the employer is taking the piss but for a minimum wage job i'm pretty sure i could get changed into uniform in a couple of mins

In hospitality, you're lucky if you even get your break half the time.

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2 hours ago, Ribble said:

 

Yeah, had flexi at last place and plenty of folk were at it, knew a good few that would come in at 7.30am knowing full well that none of the bosses were in until at least an hour later, on the few occasions that I was in that early they were all sat around having breakfast and a blether and laptops not even turned on until after 8.

 

My more general point is that an employer asking folks to be ready to work at a given time isn't unreasonable, pretty sure there are very few of us that don't have an extra coffee break, sit/stand chatting to a co-worker, take slightly longer than needed on the bog, be a minute or two late back from a break etc etc so a few minutes at the start and end of a shift to change into uniform isn't unreasonable to me, when you get into hours etc then totally agree that the employer is taking the piss but for a minimum wage job i'm pretty sure i could get changed into uniform in a couple of mins

I might be mistaken but I read the op like he wasn't allowed to show up with his uniform on and couldn't go home with it on. His employer demanding he show up early and change at work before he's on the clock. If he starts at 9am then his employer has no business asking him to be there for 08:50. As I've seen stated on here already, those minutes add up. 

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2 minutes ago, IronJambo said:

I might be mistaken but I read the op like he wasn't allowed to show up with his uniform on and couldn't go home with it on. His employer demanding he show up early and change at work before he's on the clock. If he starts at 9am then his employer has no business asking him to be there for 08:50. As I've seen stated on here already, those minutes add up. 

 

Op works in hospitality so either it's chucking a staff tshirt/shirt on that takes all of 30 seconds or at most a minute or two to chuck some chefs whites on, if shift change is at 6 then i'd expect the person starting to be ready to take over at 6 and not ten past

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4 minutes ago, Ribble said:

 

Op works in hospitality so either it's chucking a staff tshirt/shirt on that takes all of 30 seconds or at most a minute or two to chuck some chefs whites on, if shift change is at 6 then i'd expect the person starting to be ready to take over at 6 and not ten past

It's fully ironed trousers, shirt and shoes. After 30 minutes travelling, it's 5 minutes minimum to get it ready. 

Edited by Norm
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11 minutes ago, Ribble said:

 

Op works in hospitality so either it's chucking a staff tshirt/shirt on that takes all of 30 seconds or at most a minute or two to chuck some chefs whites on, if shift change is at 6 then i'd expect the person starting to be ready to take over at 6 and not ten past

There were timelines given. I think the op is absolutely correct but I don't think it's worth pursuing as he's in a vulnerable position. Sadly, without a union in place the company he works for will continue to take the piss. 

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15 minutes ago, Ribble said:

 

Op works in hospitality so either it's chucking a staff tshirt/shirt on that takes all of 30 seconds or at most a minute or two to chuck some chefs whites on, if shift change is at 6 then i'd expect the person starting to be ready to take over at 6 and not ten past

 

Then expect to pay them from 558 or make the shift change at 602. Problem solved.

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Mr Brightside
16 hours ago, jonesy said:

It all depends on the atmosphere in the place, for me. If it’s the kind of place that makes you clock in and out and are arsey about a minute here and there, then Norm should absolutely push to get dressed within the time he’s being paid. If, however, they’re a flexible kind of management who turn a blind eye to a minute here and there because the staff do a great job, then I’d probably try to get ready before my shift officially starts. A wee bit of understanding would really help - sadly, too many people in management like to flex their authority muscles.

Good post. Need to weigh up how fussy they are about breaks and general work environment if you don’t ‘work’ every single minute you are paid then you shouldn’t be too worried about a quick change before and after your shift.

Loading up a van before a shift starting is taking the piss tho.

 

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On 08/09/2021 at 00:56, FinnBarr Saunders said:

 

They don't need a reason if you've been employed for less than 2 years Norm, thank Thatcher for that belter.


thought it was changed under Cameron (from 1 year to 2 anyway)? 

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19 hours ago, Ribble said:

 

Yeah, had flexi at last place and plenty of folk were at it, knew a good few that would come in at 7.30am knowing full well that none of the bosses were in until at least an hour later, on the few occasions that I was in that early they were all sat around having breakfast and a blether and laptops not even turned on until after 8.

 

My more general point is that an employer asking folks to be ready to work at a given time isn't unreasonable, pretty sure there are very few of us that don't have an extra coffee break, sit/stand chatting to a co-worker, take slightly longer than needed on the bog, be a minute or two late back from a break etc etc so a few minutes at the start and end of a shift to change into uniform isn't unreasonable to me, when you get into hours etc then totally agree that the employer is taking the piss but for a minimum wage job i'm pretty sure i could get changed into uniform in a couple of mins


You sound bitter that others are so much more competent at their job, that they can afford to socialise and still be better at their job. 
 

There’s no doubting that there has been a shift on  working conditions that have favoured the Employer over the past decade. This was true for both the UK and the EU though.

 


 

 

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21 hours ago, Ribble said:

Might be going against the grain a bit here and i know some employers take the piss but is it really such a big deal to be asking that staff are ready to work from the point they start getting paid?

 

Personally i'm always at my desk with laptop running and coffee in hand by the time i'm meant to start, especially in pre-covid times i'd see folk wander in bang on 9 then spend 10-15 mins getting their jacket off, stuff out their locker, grabbing a coffee and then actually start work by 9.15 if they are lucky.

 

Even doing my saturday job in a chemist when I was at school, I was always there at 8.50 to get my jacket off, uniform on (white lab coat so wasn't yesterday) and ready to open the door bang on 9am


I agree with this. Not aimed at the op but the culture of today of turning up at work at the time you’re meant to actually start and bolting out the door as soon as the clock hits finishing time is not on. I think it’s completely reasonable to expect an employee to turn up in advance of their start time to get ready to start on time. Whether that is getting your laptop/computer fired up, changing into uniform or putting your overalls/safety gear on. 

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9 minutes ago, Dazo said:


I agree with this. Not aimed at the op but the culture of today of turning up at work at the time you’re meant to actually start and bolting out the door as soon as the clock hits finishing time is not on. I think it’s completely reasonable to expect an employee to turn up in advance of their start time to get ready to start on time. Whether that is getting your laptop/computer fired up, changing into uniform or putting your overalls/safety gear on. 

 

This is the part I'm struggling with. What makes it starting Vs getting reading to start? What's the difference for example between pushing the power on button of your laptop at 8am Vs opening outlook at 8am. Where/what are you deciding is work has started and why?

Edited by Taffin
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1 minute ago, Taffin said:

 

This is the part I'm struggling with. What makes it starting Vs getting reading to start? What's the difference for example between pushing the power on button of your laptop at 8am Vs opening outlook at 8am. Where are you deciding work and started and why?


You aren’t earning your employer a single penny pressing the power button,  sorting your desk out or sticking t shirt on. Those things should be done before your start imo. Some people kick the arse out of it and by the time they are ‘ready’ to start work they are 20-30mins into a shift. 

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28 minutes ago, Dazo said:


I agree with this. Not aimed at the op but the culture of today of turning up at work at the time you’re meant to actually start and bolting out the door as soon as the clock hits finishing time is not on. I think it’s completely reasonable to expect an employee to turn up in advance of their start time to get ready to start on time. Whether that is getting your laptop/computer fired up, changing into uniform or putting your overalls/safety gear on. 

 

Wait, you have a problem with folk starting and finishing work at the time they are meant to? 

Management material right there mate.👍

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1 minute ago, Awbdy Oot said:

 

Wait, you have a problem with folk starting and finishing work at the time they are meant to? 

Management material right there mate.👍


How very dare you, I’m way above managerial. I have a problem with people getting ready to start or finish when they are actually meant to be working. 👍

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Ainsley Harriott
On 07/09/2021 at 23:57, Norm said:

My employer pays minimum wage (or NLW if you prefer). They stipulate that staff must change in to uniform on the premises before their shift starts, and must change out of uniform after the end of the shift before heading home. 

 

Am I right in saying that this breaches the rules, and staff must be paid for that time? 

Having started my career in an HR department I would say you are correct about them paying for the time they require you there early. However to warn you on your later point if you are on probation you would have zero of winning an unfair dismissal claim. In fact employees have very little protection until they have been with a company 2 years. 

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6 minutes ago, Dazo said:


You aren’t earning your employer a single penny pressing the power button,  sorting your desk out or sticking t shirt on. Those things should be done before your start imo. Some people kick the arse out of it and by the time they are ‘ready’ to start work they are 20-30mins into a shift. 

 

The overwhelming amount of time at work isn't earning your employer a single penny though. What's the difference between waiting for your laptop to start Vs waiting for a printer to print.

 

Even the best businesses are littered with non-value adding activities their employees have to carry out.

 

I'm not earning my employer a penny when I'm sat in traffic driving to a branch, or when I'm in a meeting, should my pay stop then too?

 

I can see what your saying but on the flip side you can't have it both ways (start and end of day). From 5pm you're no longer earning a penny from your employer so is it okay to finish up at 16:58 so your ready to start not working? 

 

I accept it's just my opinion but it feels really old fashioned and presentee-ism. I'd rather have someone who comes in 5 minutes late and mucks about making a coffee and still goes home at 5 but gets everything I want done and to a high standard than someone who's in ten minutes early and stays late but produces a low quantity of low quality work.

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15 minutes ago, jonesy said:

Yeah, I took a PT job in a plant nursery when I went back into education a couple of years ago and they were real sticklers for clocking in and out with pay docked and all that kind of malarkey. In a way, I can sympathise as you get chancers who will always do as little as possible. However, don't expect people to 'go the extra mile' or even respect the management/workplace when you watch them like a hawk because a culture of distrust is ingrained from the management on the first day. Used to guzzle litres of water and coffee on my breaks so I could go to the bathroom on work time. And, even if bursting, would avoid going during lunch break!

 

This a hundred times.

 

Don't mind me being making coffees and doing less hours when there is less demand? You can count on me to put in the extra hours when you need me to without extra pay.

 

Demand I'm sat at my laptop waiting for the hours to pass and moan about coffee breaks? When you need dug out of a hole on a project or an urgent customer requirement then I'm afraid you'll get your 40 hours that week and not a minute more 

 

 

Edit: I'm lucky as I don't actually have any experience of scenario two and I do accept that some people will take the piss and take the time but also mump and moan or refuse to give the time back when the business needs it 👎

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28 minutes ago, Taffin said:

 

The overwhelming amount of time at work isn't earning your employer a single penny though. What's the difference between waiting for your laptop to start Vs waiting for a printer to print.

 

Even the best businesses are littered with non-value adding activities their employees have to carry out.

 

I'm not earning my employer a penny when I'm sat in traffic driving to a branch, or when I'm in a meeting, should my pay stop then too?

 

I can see what your saying but on the flip side you can't have it both ways (start and end of day). From 5pm you're no longer earning a penny from your employer so is it okay to finish up at 16:58 so your ready to start not working? 

 

I accept it's just my opinion but it feels really old fashioned and presentee-ism. I'd rather have someone who comes in 5 minutes late and mucks about making a coffee and still goes home at 5 but gets everything I want done and to a high standard than someone who's in ten minutes early and stays late but produces a low quantity of low quality work.


Aye fair enough regarding your last paragraph and hard to disagree. I just think it’s good practice in theory to do the ****ing about before and after your start/finish time. It’s a good habit to get into and good employers will notice and appreciate that sort of work ethic. Like you it’s just my opinion though and at the end of the day if the work is getting done and done to a high standard I don’t think anyone can complain. 

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2 hours ago, jambo89 said:


You sound bitter that others are so much more competent at their job, that they can afford to socialise and still be better at their job. 
 

 

I don't have any issue with competent people in the workplace, I'd love it if there were more. 

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19 hours ago, jonesy said:

It all depends on the atmosphere in the place, for me. If it’s the kind of place that makes you clock in and out and are arsey about a minute here and there, then Norm should absolutely push to get dressed within the time he’s being paid. If, however, they’re a flexible kind of management who turn a blind eye to a minute here and there because the staff do a great job, then I’d probably try to get ready before my shift officially starts. A wee bit of understanding would really help - sadly, too many people in management like to flex their authority muscles.

 

That's kinda my whole point, i've found that being punctual and ready to work at the given time (whether that's laptop booted up, uniform on or even in a bar walking in and picking up any empties) show's a good work ethic and that in turns builds trust from the employer, when an employer trusts you then you get more leeway when circumstances dictate that you need to come in late/take a long lunch/leave early etc

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1 minute ago, jonesy said:

Fair enough.

 

I've worked in places where the management/worker divide is so entrenched and even propagated by the management themselves that they don't exactly encourage such energy and effort from their staff - and the long-termer discouraging the newbies, too.

 

Don't get me wrong i've worked in places like that too, the NHS for one but in general I've found work to be much more amenable when you put that tiny bit of effort in to be punctual. I have a colleague that is the same level as me, equally good at the job but is routinely 5 mins late most days, they get a noticeably harder time from management than I do.

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3 hours ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

Having started my career in an HR department I would say you are correct about them paying for the time they require you there early. However to warn you on your later point if you are on probation you would have zero of winning an unfair dismissal claim. In fact employees have very little protection until they have been with a company 2 years. 

It might be hard to win, but legally, as long as the reason falls under "automatically unfair", you absolutely can win unfair dismissal in the first two years. Other examples, on top of enforcing your legal rights regarding pay and health and safety rights, include being fired for falling pregnant. 

 

I absolutely understand it would be difficult to win though. 

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