Why do we sit back

[1971fozzy]

United changed formation and went 3 up front. 
We had to change. Shit happens. 
Unlike the Aberdeen game , no blame for sitting back yesterday. We had 72% possession first half.  That is highly unlikely to continue for the whole 90minutes in the top division. Players tired as well given the effort they had put in

[1971fozzy]

13 minutes ago, Tom Hardy’s Dug said:

You’ve got to ask the question - why did United sit back for all of the first half as the home team?

🤣🤣 👍.  Oooft 

[Nookie Bear]

Sitting back and soaking up the pressure is a decent tactic but would love us to be faster and more clinical on the break. 
 

Minor grumble though, considering the result. 

[gashauskis9]

15 hours ago, jonnothejambo said:

 

We didn't. We were pushed back by a team desperate to score.

 

Forget this deliberately being negative pish. 

 

There are two teams out there.

 

Ask yourself this. Why did Dundee United sit back. They didn't. We forced them back.

 

It's not rocket science.

This guy gets it. 

[Bazzas right boot]

15 hours ago, jonnothejambo said:

 

We didn't. We were pushed back by a team desperate to score.

 

Forget this deliberately being negative pish. 

 

There are two teams out there.

 

Ask yourself this. Why did Dundee United sit back. They didn't. We forced them back.

 

It's not rocket science.

 

This is sense. 

Why folk don't realise this happens in every game is beyond me. 

 

Basic stuff. 

[Thomaso]

19 hours ago, Gordon Ramsay said:

Think we went to back 4 and it almost killed us. 

 

Stop tinkering. 

Neilson did exactly the same against Aberdeen and it did cost us.

[Vlad Magic]

3 hours ago, Tom Hardy’s Dug said:

You’ve got to ask the question - why did United sit back for all of the first half as the home team?

Unbelievable isn’t it?

 

Mad Tam oot!!!

[JimmyCant]

19 hours ago, NB GIN said:

Great result today but I do not get this sitting back when we are in the ascendancy it was the same with Levein

Best form of defence is attack.

 

Why do they do this I don’t get it 

Sometimes you just need to defend in part of a game as we did yesterday. What I don’t like is going one up and making a tactical decision to sit on it. I don’t think we did that yesterday. They had a wee spell of pressure. We dealt with it comfortably. There won’t be many games this season where we don’t need to absorb a bit of pressure at some stage.

Edited August 29, 2021 by JimmyCant

[Bull's-eye]

Football lesson number 1......

 

There are 2 teams competing against each other on the pitch.

 

Lesson for today, over.

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

Because we keep on winning 

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

20 minutes ago, Thomaso said:

Neilson did exactly the same against Aberdeen and it did cost us.

You need to watch that game again, even just the 15 minutes between goals 

[Thomaso]

36 minutes ago, Sir Gio said:

You need to watch that game again, even just the 15 minutes between goals 

And? 🤷‍♂️

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

6 hours ago, Thomaso said:

And? 🤷‍♂️

And you may realise you are talking shite 

 

[Brick Tamland]

1 minute ago, Sir Gio said:

And you may realise you are talking shite 

 

[Thomaso]

29 minutes ago, Sir Gio said:

And you may realise you are talking shite 

 

Talking shite in what way?

He changed to a four against Aberdeen before they scored did they not?

My opinion is by doing so he handed the initative to Aberdeen! 

Edited August 29, 2021 by Thomaso

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

1 minute ago, Thomaso said:

Talking shite in what way?

He changed to a four against Aberdeen before they scored did they not?

My opinion is by doing so he handed the initative to Aberdeen! 

Doesn't mean we were sitting. Still going forward at that point. Funnily enough we only really got pushed back once it went to 1 1.

 

To be honest, had I not watched it back would probably have agreed. 

 

We didn't sit back at all, ultimately we did get pushed back but only very late on

[Glottis]

At parkhead it was through instructions

 

Against Aberdeen and Dundee Utd, less so.

Both games you could see Neilson screaming for the players to push forward.

 

We're playing 3-4-3 but all 4 of our midfielders are defenders by trade or defensive midfielders.

Their instincts are to defend and that will come out.

[Thomaso]

2 hours ago, Sir Gio said:

Doesn't mean we were sitting. Still going forward at that point. Funnily enough we only really got pushed back once it went to 1 1.

 

To be honest, had I not watched it back would probably have agreed. 

 

We didn't sit back at all, ultimately we did get pushed back but only very late on

Thanks for your considered opinion - much improved on your “talking shite” effort! 👍

[colinmaroon]

On 28/08/2021 at 17:14, gregzy2k7 said:

I don't think we did tbh, certainly not at all in the first half, where we were very dominant, there was about a 15/20 minute spell towards the end of second half where united came back into it but I think it was just them pressing further up the park to make it look like that.

I thought we tried to press for the majority of the game today imo

 

Got it absolutely right.

 

Other teams almost slays get their spells in the game.

 

 

[Tasavallan]

Watching Motherwell's goal today, it came from a free-kick placed between half-way and the penalty box.  The ball was floated into the box and Tony Watt headed the goal.  From what I have seen most teams attack the penalty box in a similar position.

 

Yesterday Hearts has a couple of free-kicks in similar positions but the ball went back to the defence/Gordon.  This has happened more times than not this season.   Frustrates me.

[John Findlay]

39 minutes ago, Tasavallan said:

Watching Motherwell's goal today, it came from a free-kick placed between half-way and the penalty box.  The ball was floated into the box and Tony Watt headed the goal.  From what I have seen most teams attack the penalty box in a similar position.

 

Yesterday Hearts has a couple of free-kicks in similar positions but the ball went back to the defence/Gordon.  This has happened more times than not this season.   Frustrates me.

Yet Haring squandered two headers at both ends of the pitch yesterday.

Funny old game.

[Tasavallan]

36 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

Yet Haring squandered two headers at both ends of the pitch yesterday.

Funny old game.

Didn't he just.  No No 10.

[Bazzas right boot]

4 hours ago, Tasavallan said:

Watching Motherwell's goal today, it came from a free-kick placed between half-way and the penalty box.  The ball was floated into the box and Tony Watt headed the goal.  From what I have seen most teams attack the penalty box in a similar position.

 

Yesterday Hearts has a couple of free-kicks in similar positions but the ball went back to the defence/Gordon.  This has happened more times than not this season.   Frustrates me.

 

That was more about Watts finish Tbh. Cracking wee flick. 

 

 

[Ari Gold]

The change to 4 at the back didn't work and nearly cost us for 10 minutes. We improved immediately when we went back to a 3.

 

Good win though. 

Edited August 30, 2021 by Ari Gold

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

9 hours ago, Thomaso said:

Thanks for your considered opinion - much improved on your “talking shite” effort! 👍

[portobellojambo1]

I've often posted on here pre any match by saying I hope we line up to play attacking football. I appreciate fully that in any football game one team cannot and will not be able to do this for the full 90 minutes, and I may well be in a time warp in terms of what I remember when George Burley was coach, a way of playing that really worked for us. On Saturday past my hope was that once we had gone 1-0 up we would then look to double that lead, and once we had done that we could then make adjustments to the side, but with something a little more concrete to then defend. But it is difficult to be critical at this stage. I think it is something we can adjust/tinker with going forward, in the first half it was clearly evident that Boyce was playing much higher up than he has in the recent past, and that was because Woodburn was able to slot into a slightly deeper attacking position. In time it could be the case that both Woodburn and Mackay Steven will play just in behing Boyce, giving him even more time to concentrate on just banging in goals. There is a decent run of games coming up where we can try to brush up on how we line up, and by the time we go to Ibrox we may have devloped a style/way of playing which means we won't have to change everything just because we are going to Glasgow.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

I was just reading the article about McEneff from the other thread (think it was EEN) where he was bemoaning that at Parkhead we'd gone in with a plan to be more forward and disruptive but that the team just fell back behind the ball.  The article also talked about making the step up from the Championship, which had me thinking about both. A Boyce interview mentioned the same thing after the win over Celtic, about having gone in intending to press but just falling back unintentionally.

 

We cleared out some woeful underperformers and brought in some solid players last season but it meant that for a lot of them their exposure to Scottish football was a lot of going to small, empty stadia with teams with a few plumbers and joiners on the pitch, sitting back in terror as our much more highly resourced squad charged at them. Jump ahead to this season, and after a LC group stage of more of the same, they're now in away stadia with 6, 8, or 50k fans yelling vulgarities and squads of only full-time footballers with some international squad members sprinkled in making sharp, incisive passes and working like well-oiled machines.

 

We can have all the intention in the world of playing forward but that requires a full 3-4 players collectively showing that bravery, because if it's just one then he'll end up standing by himself up the pitch. with no service. In Dundee on Saturday and in other squads, at the same time that kickback was moaning that we were packed behind the ball, Robbie was standing on the sidelines yelling at the squad to press up. Building that collective courage, that even if you slip and let a pass through that your defence is stout enough to hold the line, and how to press against quality defenders without resorting to headless chicken running, takes time.

 

Everything I've seen says that's our intention. Obviously it's up to Neilson and the squad to make that happen, but I do believe we're trying to press forward.

[ri Alban]

14 hours ago, Ugly American said:

I was just reading the article about McEneff from the other thread (think it was EEN) where he was bemoaning that at Parkhead we'd gone in with a plan to be more forward and disruptive but that the team just fell back behind the ball.  The article also talked about making the step up from the Championship, which had me thinking about both. A Boyce interview mentioned the same thing after the win over Celtic, about having gone in intending to press but just falling back unintentionally.

 

We cleared out some woeful underperformers and brought in some solid players last season but it meant that for a lot of them their exposure to Scottish football was a lot of going to small, empty stadia with teams with a few plumbers and joiners on the pitch, sitting back in terror as our much more highly resourced squad charged at them. Jump ahead to this season, and after a LC group stage of more of the same, they're now in away stadia with 6, 8, or 50k fans yelling vulgarities and squads of only full-time footballers with some international squad members sprinkled in making sharp, incisive passes and working like well-oiled machines.

 

We can have all the intention in the world of playing forward but that requires a full 3-4 players collectively showing that bravery, because if it's just one then he'll end up standing by himself up the pitch. with no service. In Dundee on Saturday and in other squads, at the same time that kickback was moaning that we were packed behind the ball, Robbie was standing on the sidelines yelling at the squad to press up. Building that collective courage, that even if you slip and let a pass through that your defence is stout enough to hold the line, and how to press against quality defenders without resorting to headless chicken running, takes time.

 

Everything I've seen says that's our intention. Obviously it's up to Neilson and the squad to make that happen, but I do believe we're trying to press forward.

So do I. 👍

[Bazzas right boot]

16 hours ago, Ugly American said:

I was just reading the article about McEneff from the other thread (think it was EEN) where he was bemoaning that at Parkhead we'd gone in with a plan to be more forward and disruptive but that the team just fell back behind the ball.  The article also talked about making the step up from the Championship, which had me thinking about both. A Boyce interview mentioned the same thing after the win over Celtic, about having gone in intending to press but just falling back unintentionally.

 

We cleared out some woeful underperformers and brought in some solid players last season but it meant that for a lot of them their exposure to Scottish football was a lot of going to small, empty stadia with teams with a few plumbers and joiners on the pitch, sitting back in terror as our much more highly resourced squad charged at them. Jump ahead to this season, and after a LC group stage of more of the same, they're now in away stadia with 6, 8, or 50k fans yelling vulgarities and squads of only full-time footballers with some international squad members sprinkled in making sharp, incisive passes and working like well-oiled machines.

 

We can have all the intention in the world of playing forward but that requires a full 3-4 players collectively showing that bravery, because if it's just one then he'll end up standing by himself up the pitch. with no service. In Dundee on Saturday and in other squads, at the same time that kickback was moaning that we were packed behind the ball, Robbie was standing on the sidelines yelling at the squad to press up. Building that collective courage, that even if you slip and let a pass through that your defence is stout enough to hold the line, and how to press against quality defenders without resorting to headless chicken running, takes time.

 

Everything I've seen says that's our intention. Obviously it's up to Neilson and the squad to make that happen, but I do believe we're trying to press forward.

 

 

That may be true but I think most of our players have played in front of decent if not big crowds in the past, jumping up to the top league with crowds although new, shouldn't put any fear into them. 

 

Also  the answer is more simple imo, a teams energy levels will have lulls and the other team will attack, when they do this and do this well you need to get more numbers back and defend well. 

 

Both teams would rather attack than defend, sometimes the better one impresses it's game on the other and other times the game just changes. 

 

Very few games have 90 minutes of 1 team having it all their own way. 

 

Defending is part of the game, an important part. Good teams do that well, then they attack and score when on top - something we are thankfully doing now, but we won't be pressing or attacking for full games. Very rare. 

 

 

[spacerjoe]

On 30/08/2021 at 09:01, portobellojambo1 said:

I've often posted on here pre any match by saying I hope we line up to play attacking football. I appreciate fully that in any football game one team cannot and will not be able to do this for the full 90 minutes, and I may well be in a time warp in terms of what I remember when George Burley was coach, a way of playing that really worked for us.

 

That's because that team was a whole level above the rest of the league (Celtic / Rangers aside) and they knew it.

 

Much in the same way Old Firm teams do. They are better and know they are better so they just go out to batter their opponents.

 

I'd like us to have that confidence, but in reality, on paper, the gap between us and Dundee Utd is not that great. We still have to adapt a bit in-game to how the other team plays.

 

Burleys team would smash this one, I've no doubt.

[Guest ToqueJambo]

9 minutes ago, spacerjoe said:

 

That's because that team was a whole level above the rest of the league (Celtic / Rangers aside) and they knew it.

 

Much in the same way Old Firm teams do. They are better and know they are better so they just go out to batter their opponents.

 

I'd like us to have that confidence, but in reality, on paper, the gap between us and Dundee Utd is not that great. We still have to adapt a bit in-game to how the other team plays.

 

Burleys team would smash this one, I've no doubt.

 

Burley's team would smash this league, never mind smash the current Hearts team.

Edited September 1, 2021 by ToqueJambo

[4marsbars]

An alternative title for this thread might be:

 

Why Do Neilson Teams Gain so Many League Points?

 

Noticed that yet?

[Guest ToqueJambo]

On 31/08/2021 at 07:25, Ugly American said:

Everything I've seen says that's our intention. Obviously it's up to Neilson and the squad to make that happen, but I do believe we're trying to press forward.

 

 

There is absolutely no doubt we intend to attack teams under Neilson. That's been one of the main criticisms of him - that he deliberately sets up defensively and doesn't want to attack. It's always been bollocks but especially this season. Nothing - not our formation, signings, selections, or in game substitutions - suggests we're in for a seasons of defensive football, or "Neilsonball". Of course wanting to do it and being able to do it consistently are different things but there's no doubt the intent is there. Injuries might also upset the plan at times.

 

We'll get a good idea of Neilson's ability by seeing how we manage to get that balance of going at teams but still being solid at the back, and picking up points at the same time, this season. So far so good.

Edited September 1, 2021 by ToqueJambo

[Guest ToqueJambo]

On 30/08/2021 at 00:15, Ari Gold said:

The change to 4 at the back didn't work and nearly cost us for 10 minutes. We improved immediately when we went back to a 3.

 

Good win though. 

 

We didn't concede though during a period of intense pressure, and we then went on to score again. So it did work.

[Ari Gold]

28 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

We didn't concede though during a period of intense pressure, and we then went on to score again. So it did work.

They didn't look like scoring until we changed to 4 at the back then they had 4 shots in 10 minutes. Funnily enough when we changed back to 3 at the back we scored the 2nd.  A change that brings on "intense pressure" clearly hasn't worked hence the reason we changed it back. 

 

The first 60/65 minutes was the most comfortable I've seen un away from home in the premiership in a long time. 

Edited September 1, 2021 by Ari Gold