FoH Shares - Handover Announced for 30/8/21

[Jambo-Fox]

5 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

I have a slight concern that once the shares are transferred FOH becomes a rather obvious tax avoidance scheme. Instead of 8000 people paying an extra 10 or 20%  for their STs they bung in the same amount to FOH and hence the club tax free. Could this have something to do with the delay?

Seems to me more plausible than we want to have a party.

I’ve sensed and suspected this for some time.

It’s a unique situation so it will not be clear cut. However HMRC will be all over it because they will want to make sure any precedent is clear and unambiguous whichever way it’s decided.

Whilst members of the FOH board are ‘tax experts’ ultimately it will be a judgment on the legality or not of the organisation (FOH) and it’s raised funds.

 

This might drag on for a while until it’s decided. Feels like all parties have decided on privacy. 
 

Much better to delay the handover and get it right rather than rush and lose £millions ..

Edited July 26, 2021 by Jambo-Fox

[Saint Jambo]

52 minutes ago, Jambo-Fox said:

I’ve sensed and suspected this for some time.

It’s a unique situation so it will not be clear cut. However HMRC will be all over it because they will want to make sure any precedent is clear and unambiguous whichever way it’s decided.

Whilst members of the FOH board are ‘tax experts’ ultimately it will be a judgment on the legality or not of the organisation (FOH) and it’s raised funds.

 

This might drag on for a while until it’s decided. Feels like all parties have decided on privacy. 
 

Much better to delay the handover and get it right rather than rush and lose £millions ..

When you say rush, we've known since at least 2017 that FOH planned for donations to continue after ownership was transferred. We've also known the planned timeline for the transfer. I really don't think suggesting that if this is an issue it should have been sorted by now can be described as 'rushing' the process.

 

In May 2020 Wallace said he expected the transfer to happen before the end of 2020. We've also been told the delay is because of covid and the desire for a party to mark the handover. If the issue is really a concern about tax then they really shouldn't consider 'privacy' an option. FOH are a membership organisation and we should expect a degree of transparency on an issue that is fundamental to the existence of the Foundation. Especially as if it were the case, I can't see any reason that telling members that this was the hold up would negatively impact on the discussions.

 

But if you only suspect this and don't have any stronger grounds to believe it is true then I'm going to give the FOH board more credit and assume they are not this incompetent.

[Jambo-Fox]

4 minutes ago, Saint Jambo said:

When you say rush, we've known since at least 2017 that FOH planned for donations to continue after ownership was transferred. We've also known the planned timeline for the transfer. I really don't think suggesting that if this is an issue it should have been sorted by now can be described as 'rushing' the process.

 

In May 2020 Wallace said he expected the transfer to happen before the end of 2020. We've also been told the delay is because of covid and the desire for a party to mark the handover. If the issue is really a concern about tax then they really shouldn't consider 'privacy' an option. FOH are a membership organisation and we should expect a degree of transparency on an issue that is fundamental to the existence of the Foundation. Especially as if it were the case, I can't see any reason that telling members that this was the hold up would negatively impact on the discussions.

 

But if you only suspect this and don't have any stronger grounds to believe it is true then I'm going to give the FOH board more credit and assume they are not this incompetent.

Maybe HMRC only raised questions late 2019 / early 2020. Maybe they were not satisfied by the answers. Maybe they have asked more questions. Maybe they have not decided their position.

 

Maybe there are other reasons why the share transfer has not happened.

 

Maybe the FOH know why they’ve not concluded ‘the deal’.

 

So many maybes (sorry), surely some members must know the reason for the delay?? If not this does not bode well for the Hearts being fan owned by the FOH!

 

However I’m inclined to trust the elected Directors of the FOH and believe they know what they are doing and it’s best for both the FOH & HMFC!

 

Time will tell!

 ♥️♥️♥️♥️
PS I think the suggestion that the delay in concluding a legal and financial transaction is due to the desire to have a party is a load of bollocks!! Does anybody actually believe that?

[Boab]

I suppose the most telling part of AB’s statement in May this year was “ …barring any legal hiccups.. “

[David Black]

There's a number of theories being banded about regarding this, but surely some communication from either the club or FOH would be appropriate to clarify the situation. The PR regarding this is utterly atrocious and all this criticism has been self inflicted by both club and FOH. When you think back to the wonderful atmosphere 7 years ago between club, the support and AB and look at how that has sunk to the level it has now. All self inflicted.  

Edited July 27, 2021 by David Black

[Footballfirst]

Who needs a party when a tweet will do.

 

Breaking news!

 

 

The most important people to thank are our near-1,200 members, whose commitment made today possible. Today is for every one of you. Our club and its place at heart of the local community are precious and the people who care for it most can now safeguard it forever /2

The key individual to thank is Gordon Scott. Not only did he put up the money for the initial share purchase back in 2016 but he’s since overseen five years of progress on and off the park. He will remain a key figure as one of our board reps /3

We also recognise the previous (pre-2016) board for all they did to safeguard the club over the two decades prior. As of today, no Reg Brealey types can ever get their hands on our club – we’ll make sure of that /4

The fact we bought the club in five years rather than ten as first expected is down to our link-up with Kibble. We are proud to say our model of a club owned by its fans and run in partnership with a major charity is unique within European top-flight football /5

If you haven’t joined yet, we’d love to have you – the more of us there are the more we can do to safeguard our club and invest in its long-term future. You can sign up for either £5, £12 or £25 a month. The £5pm category a new one aimed at making SMISA more accessible /6

Future SMISA income will be split as follows: 50% to our cash reserve (50%), 30% to

@StMirrenAcad  (30%), 10% to @SMFC_CF  Foundation and 10% to other club projects as voted on by members. So a strong SMISA will mean a strong St Mirren /7

Edited July 27, 2021 by Footballfirst

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

So St Bribery beat us in the fan owned stakes! So much for those FoH claims. What an embarrassment they are!

 

It's all good though. Stuart Wallace will just go on a podcast and everything will be fine again.

[Footballfirst]

3 minutes ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

So St Bribery beat us in the fan owned stakes! So much for those FoH claims. What an embarrassment they are!

 

It's all good though. Stuart Wallace will just go on a podcast and everything will be fine again.

Not just St Mirren, Motherwell has been majority owned by the Well Society since 2016, Dunfermline was fan owned but has gone back to private ownership because they were unable to match the investment levels they were seeking.

[Adam_the_legend]

31 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

Not just St Mirren, Motherwell has been majority owned by the Well Society since 2016, Dunfermline was fan owned but has gone back to private ownership because they were unable to match the investment levels they were seeking.

It really is utterly damning that the share transfer hasn’t happened yet. Seeing people post on here saying AB is a control freak and doesn’t want to give up the control her majority ownership brings, I always put this down to the usual JKB loons but it’s now genuinely concerning. Just ****ing do it already!!

[Lone Striker]

1 hour ago, Footballfirst said:

Not just St Mirren, Motherwell has been majority owned by the Well Society since 2016, Dunfermline was fan owned but has gone back to private ownership because they were unable to match the investment levels they were seeking.

Yes.  Here's an interview with a director of the Well Society.   It seems they collect a tenth of what FoH do each month from their 3000 members and simply put it in the bank (their own account, not the football club's) for a rainy day, occasionally digging in to it to support community projects. 

 

https://tribunemag.co.uk/2021/04/how-motherwell-is-leading-the-way-for-fan-owned-football

 

I quite like the way the St.Mirren thing is set up - 

"Future SMISA income will be split as follows: 50% to our cash reserve (50%), 30% to

@StMirrenAcad  (30%), 10% to @SMFC_CF  Foundation and 10% to other club projects as voted on by members."

 

Seems more targeted than 100% going into our club pot. It can be changed via  members voting on an alternative proposal at an AGM.

 

Edited July 27, 2021 by Lone Striker

[Saint Jambo]

4 hours ago, Footballfirst said:

Who needs a party when a tweet will do.

 

Breaking news!

 

 

The most important people to thank are our near-1,200 members, whose commitment made today possible. Today is for every one of you. Our club and its place at heart of the local community are precious and the people who care for it most can now safeguard it forever /2

The key individual to thank is Gordon Scott. Not only did he put up the money for the initial share purchase back in 2016 but he’s since overseen five years of progress on and off the park. He will remain a key figure as one of our board reps /3

We also recognise the previous (pre-2016) board for all they did to safeguard the club over the two decades prior. As of today, no Reg Brealey types can ever get their hands on our club – we’ll make sure of that /4

The fact we bought the club in five years rather than ten as first expected is down to our link-up with Kibble. We are proud to say our model of a club owned by its fans and run in partnership with a major charity is unique within European top-flight football /5

If you haven’t joined yet, we’d love to have you – the more of us there are the more we can do to safeguard our club and invest in its long-term future. You can sign up for either £5, £12 or £25 a month. The £5pm category a new one aimed at making SMISA more accessible /6

Future SMISA income will be split as follows: 50% to our cash reserve (50%), 30% to

@StMirrenAcad  (30%), 10% to @SMFC_CF  Foundation and 10% to other club projects as voted on by members. So a strong SMISA will mean a strong St Mirren /7

 

HMRC SWAT team racing down the M8 to Paisley as we speak.

[Francis Albert]

1 hour ago, Saint Jambo said:

 

HMRC SWAT team racing down the M8 to Paisley as we speak.

As posted above the St Mirren trust only passes 10% of the revenue it generates to the club, whereas in the case of FoH it is 100% minus only a small amount to cover FoH admin costs. 

 

I quite like the sound of the St Mirren structure with half the funds going into a reserve to use in the event of a disaster like administration, the rest going into good causes except  for the 10% the club is free to squander.

[Saint Jambo]

2 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

As posted above the St Mirren trust only passes 10% of the revenue it generates to the club, whereas in the case of FoH it is 100% minus only a small amount to cover FoH admin costs. 

 

I quite like the sound of the St Mirren structure with half the funds going into a reserve to use in the event of a disaster like administration, the rest going into good causes except  for the 10% the club is free to squander.

 

The Academy appears to be part of the club and the Trust is limited in how it can use its money to the point that the reserves can pretty much only be used in time to benefit the club. So 40% to the club immediately and 50% used by the club later seems more accurate than 10% to the club. If it was that easy to pull the wool over HMRC's eyes then it should have taken FOH about 10minuted to find a work around to the tax issue you've suggested. 

[Francis Albert]

34 minutes ago, Saint Jambo said:

 

The Academy appears to be part of the club and the Trust is limited in how it can use its money to the point that the reserves can pretty much only be used in time to benefit the club. So 40% to the club immediately and 50% used by the club later seems more accurate than 10% to the club. If it was that easy to pull the wool over HMRC's eyes then it should have taken FOH about 10minuted to find a work around to the tax issue you've suggested. 

It is clearly a different approach than just handing over almost all the money to the people running the club as soon as that money has been raised and having no say in how that money is spent. I don't know how the difference affects any tax considerations. I was just speculating about a possible reason for the delay which could be more credible than the desire to have a party. Which frankly after we have put in over £12m to achieve the whole point of FOH I find a wee bit insulting.

Edited July 27, 2021 by Francis Albert

[Guthriesgonads]

St Mirren now fan owned after £1m contributed. £12m paid in at Hearts and still no news. Worrying. How much is Budge’s loan nowadays? Does she want that re-paying before handover now? 

 

 

Edited July 28, 2021 by Guthriesgonads

[Herbert.]

17 hours ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

So St Bribery beat us in the fan owned stakes! So much for those FoH claims. What an embarrassment they are!

 

It's all good though. Stuart Wallace will just go on a podcast and everything will be fine again.

 

 

As a whole we are very gullible. Go back a few months and everyone wanted her gone but now she's queen again that knows what she is doing cause she sold a company once.

[Francis Albert]

Nearly 5 months since Ann told the EEN that she intended to hand over the shares in time for our then anticipated return to the top flight and that she had been working intensively on it for some time. If she has been working intensely on it for over 5 months it is going to be some party! About 17 months since the FOH members fulfilled their funding  obligations for the transfer to happen.

 

Edited July 28, 2021 by Francis Albert

[Section Q]

On 26/07/2021 at 11:48, kila said:

 

So let's just not bother being fan owned at all then... FoH money can be pissed up against a wall as Budge and her chums please.

 

Fan ownership but not fan run was always the case so no changes here. I think we'll get a real boost when the change over eventually happens. Been a mad ten years.

[Boab]

11 minutes ago, Section Q said:

Fan ownership but not fan run was always the case so no changes here. I think we'll get a real boost when the change over eventually happens. Been a mad ten years.

Think everyone is well aware of how it will be run. That’s not the point of the thread. Eventually ain’t cutting it any more. People want it done now. Or at least tell us why it isn’t.

[davemclaren]

2 hours ago, Guthriesgonads said:

St Mirren now fan owned after £1m contributed. £12m paid in at Hearts and still no news. Worrying. How much is Budge’s loan nowadays? Does she want that re-paying before handover now? 

 

 

As I mentioned about a year ago I think the substantial outstanding debt to her may well be a factor in the delay. 

[Boab]

2 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

As I mentioned about a year ago I think the substantial outstanding debt to her may well be a factor in the delay. 

If that is the case, Dave, she shouldn’t be issuing statements, the last one just over two months ago, stating it will be happening, em, now !

[Francis Albert]

3 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

As I mentioned about a year ago I think the substantial outstanding debt to her may well be a factor in the delay. 

It would make more sense than waiting to have a party. But if FOH has agreed to amend the agreement with Bidco without consulting or even informing its members that seems a bit shoddy.

 

[davemclaren]

2 minutes ago, Boab said:

If that is the case, Dave, she shouldn’t be issuing statements, the last one just over two months ago, stating it will be happening, em, now !

She did say in the summer so she technically has until end August or mid September. However, an FoH statement clarifying is overdue given the league season starts on Saturday. 

[Jambo61]

On 26/07/2021 at 10:36, chuck berrys hairline said:

What's happening with the handover?

 

Are they frozen? 

Powermad Ann refusing? 

Party planning?

 

We are in level 0 so no excuse really we've been waiting patiently for months. Imo she's too power hungry to give them up, just like any other old dictator! No doubt need forcibly removed from us fans

Either the structure is in place, covid or no covid, or it is not!

So why the delay?

If the structure is not in place, why lie?

[Boab]

4 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

She did say in the summer so she technically has until end August or mid September. However, an FoH statement clarifying is overdue given the league season starts on Saturday. 

Yip. Hopefully it is ready to go and notification is imminent !

[David Black]

The bottom line is that both Ann Budge and Stuart Wallace have failed/refused to comply with a legal agreement. That's it. The sooner both are out the club the better and maybe then we can move forward. No doubt this will upset some but the fact is that since promotion we have gone backwards season on season, Hibs on the other hand since promotion have improved season on season, so this myth that if Ann left the club would be in serious trouble is just that, a myth. They have no excuses left and all the criticism is their own fault. 

[davemclaren]

17 minutes ago, David Black said:

The bottom line is that both Ann Budge and Stuart Wallace have failed/refused to comply with a legal agreement. That's it. The sooner both are out the club the better and maybe then we can move forward. No doubt this will upset some but the fact is that since promotion we have gone backwards season on season, Hibs on the other hand since promotion have improved season on season, so this myth that if Ann left the club would be in serious trouble is just that, a myth. They have no excuses left and all the criticism is their own fault. 

You make it sound like they have acted illegally. They haven’t. 

[kila]

1 hour ago, davemclaren said:

You make it sound like they have acted illegally. They haven’t. 

 

No, but are they acting with honesty to the FoH members?

 

Silence on the matter suggests not... poor Stuart Wallace must be up to his eyes in work if he's not been able to say anything.

 

[David Black]

1 hour ago, davemclaren said:

You make it sound like they have acted illegally. They haven’t. 

What I have said is that they have failed to fulfill  a legal agreement between Bidco and Fanco. I never said they were acting illegally. I would add that surely in the agreement there should have been a date by which time the shares would be transferred. If not they are never going to be acting illegally, if there is then at that point they will. 

[davemclaren]

12 minutes ago, David Black said:

What I have said is that they have failed to fulfill  a legal agreement between Bidco and Fanco. I never said they were acting illegally. I would add that surely in the agreement there should have been a date by which time the shares would be transferred. If not they are never going to be acting illegally, if there is then at that point they will. 

I don’t think there’s a defined date. FoH members will be able to act on their unhappiness at the next agm, or even egm. 
 

re Stuart Wallace, I recall him saying he was only standing for two years and that is up at the end of this year, so I expect change is coming. 

[Footballfirst]

23 minutes ago, David Black said:

What I have said is that they have failed to fulfill  a legal agreement between Bidco and Fanco. I never said they were acting illegally. I would add that surely in the agreement there should have been a date by which time the shares would be transferred. If not they are never going to be acting illegally, if there is then at that point they will. 

They may have drifted into unlawful territory.

 

From the amended agreement.

The agreement has a long-stop-date for satisfying the financial obligations in the final phase. This was originally 9 May 2019, but it will now be deferred for a period equal to the duration of the stadium funding phase.

 

The stadium funding phase lasted two years, so the long-stop date should have been 9 May 2021 which has now passed.

 

They do have an out by extending the long-stop date by up to six months

If the financial conditions in the final phase of the agreement are not fully satisfied by the longstop date, there would be an automatic period of extension to give the Foundation a final opportunity to raise the amount of any shortfall. The duration of this period has been increased from three months to six months. In addition, if it looked like the Foundation was going to be unable to meet its payment obligations, there would be dialogue and discussion with the Club and Bidco on possible solutions.

 

However, there is no shortfall per se, as evidenced by the monthly pledging updates,  so an extension should not by required.

 

Either way it is incumbent on SW to inform the FOH membership what is going on.  Similarly AB has a duty to inform HMFC plc shareholders of any impending change in the majority shareholding.

 

Edited July 28, 2021 by Footballfirst

[David Black]

7 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

I don’t think there’s a defined date. FoH members will be able to act on their unhappiness at the next agm, or even egm. 
 

re Stuart Wallace, I recall him saying he was only standing for two years and that is up at the end of this year, so I expect change is coming. 

I didn't know that about Stuart. I feel FOH has lost its way under him.

[David Black]

14 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

They may have drifted into unlawful territory.

 

From the amended agreement.

The agreement has a long-stop-date for satisfying the financial obligations in the final phase. This was originally 9 May 2019, but it will now be deferred for a period equal to the duration of the stadium funding phase.

 

The stadium funding phase lasted two years, so the long-stop date should have been 9 May 2021 which has now passed.

 

They do have an out by extending the long-stop date by up to six months

If the financial conditions in the final phase of the agreement are not fully satisfied by the longstop date, there would be an automatic period of extension to give the Foundation a final opportunity to raise the amount of any shortfall. The duration of this period has been increased from three months to six months. In addition, if it looked like the Foundation was going to be unable to meet its payment obligations, there would be dialogue and discussion with the Club and Bidco on possible solutions.

 

However, there is no shortfall per se, as evidenced by the monthly pledging updates,  so an extension should not by required.

 

Either way it in incumbent on SW to inform the FOH membership what is going on.  Similarly AB has a duty to inform HMFC plc shareholders of any impending change in the majority shareholding.

 

Thanks FF, even I understood that. 

[Section Q]

2 hours ago, David Black said:

The bottom line is that both Ann Budge and Stuart Wallace have failed/refused to comply with a legal agreement. That's it. The sooner both are out the club the better and maybe then we can move forward. No doubt this will upset some but the fact is that since promotion we have gone backwards season on season, Hibs on the other hand since promotion have improved season on season, so this myth that if Ann left the club would be in serious trouble is just that, a myth. They have no excuses left and all the criticism is their own fault. 

Agree with you on the club going backwards, at least on the pitch, and it pains me to see Hibs doing better than us, but TBF, they have a decent scouting system and youth policy, and Jack Ross is a good manager....

Tin hat secured.....!

[Psychedelicropcircle]

Transfer your FOH doe to a lawyer to get pressure on both AB & the FOH board to get this done!

 

 

I don’t have a say as I only payed in until the FOH had the share money. They never mentioned at the beginning I’d be persona non grata once I stopped!

[graygo]

10 hours ago, David Black said:

The bottom line is that both Ann Budge and Stuart Wallace have failed/refused to comply with a legal agreement. That's it. The sooner both are out the club the better and maybe then we can move forward. No doubt this will upset some but the fact is that since promotion we have gone backwards season on season, Hibs on the other hand since promotion have improved season on season, so this myth that if Ann left the club would be in serious trouble is just that, a myth. They have no excuses left and all the criticism is their own fault. 

 

Really?  Might want to check that "fact".

[David Black]

48 minutes ago, Awbdy Oot said:

 

Really?  Might want to check that "fact".

Tell me where I am wrong. 

[Boab]

3 minutes ago, David Black said:

Tell me where I am wrong. 

In their four years after coming up, their league positions have been 4th, 5th, 6th and then 3rd. 
Not an improvement season on season. If it had been 6, 5, 4, 3, then, aye, that would be it.

[David Black]

3 minutes ago, Boab said:

In their four years after coming up, their league positions have been 4th, 5th, 6th and then 3rd. 
Not an improvement season on season. If it had been 6, 5, 4, 3, then, aye, that would be it.

Fair enough , but still an improvement on 3rd,5th,5th,6th and then relegated. Into Europe as well, 5 years since we done that. 

[graygo]

39 minutes ago, David Black said:

Tell me where I am wrong. 

 

31 minutes ago, Boab said:

In their four years after coming up, their league positions have been 4th, 5th, 6th and then 3rd. 
Not an improvement season on season. If it had been 6, 5, 4, 3, then, aye, that would be it.

 

Thanks Boab. 👍

[graygo]

33 minutes ago, David Black said:

Fair enough , but still an improvement on 3rd,5th,5th,6th and then relegated. Into Europe as well, 5 years since we done that. 

 

Well aye, that's not what you said though.

 

Hibs in last 6 seasons have finished (not in order)

3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 13th, 15th.

 

Hearts in last 6 seasons have finished (not in order)

3rd, 5th, 5th, 6th, 12th, 13th.

 

Both qualified for Europe once in that time.

 

Bugger all in it if you ask me.

Edited July 28, 2021 by Awbdy Oot

[Francis Albert]

13 minutes ago, Awbdy Oot said:

 

Well aye, that's not what you said though.

 

Hibs in last 6 seasons have finished (not in order)

3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 13th, 15th.

 

Hearts in last 6 seasons have finished (not in order)

3rd, 5th, 5th, 6th, 12th, 13th.

 

Both qualified for Europe once in that time.

 

Bugger all in it if you ask me.

Biugger all in it is our new comparison with them?

[jr ewing]

Ann not wanting to give up the power is the only answer to the delay. 

[graygo]

1 hour ago, Francis Albert said:

Biugger all in it is our new comparison with them?

 

Wasn't me who made the original (wrong) comparison, I just corrected it and pointed out there is bugger all in it.

[mitch41]

I’d like to think that with Ann Budge still being responsible for any debt or small amount of cash FOH would be in a good position to take ownership of Hearts with a tidy bank balance. FOH might not be allowed or would want to carry any debt and with COVID and no fans in attendance last season our finances will of taken a big hit. That’s why we’re meant to be going for quality players over mediocre players that Hearts pay wages to and get nothing back in reply. The waste has to stop as it will kill us if we keep signing duds because FOH won’t have the money to bail Hearts out.

[Tams bird]

23 hours ago, Section Q said:

Fan ownership but not fan run was always the case so no changes here. I think we'll get a real boost when the change over eventually happens. Been a mad ten years.

Thank goodness it will never be fan run.  

[Section Q]

45 minutes ago, Tams bird said:

Thank goodness it will never be fan run.  

😁

[Francis Albert]

45 minutes ago, Tams bird said:

Thank goodness it will never be fan run.  

it is being run by a fan at present.

[Wee Mikey]

44 minutes ago, Tams bird said:

Thank goodness it will never be fan run.  

 

What? Even with the combined expertise avalable from just a handful of JKB posters? 🙃

[Boab]

1 hour ago, Tams bird said:

Thank goodness it will never be fan run.  

We just put money in every month for 8 years, hoping that the people who do make the decisions, do what’s asked of them. 
A date for handover is all that’s being asked now.  Let’s see how that goes before the summer’s out !