FoH Shares - Handover Announced for 30/8/21

[Francis Albert]

1 minute ago, Herbert said:

 

 

Mine was sarcasm btw. I want rid.

I know.

[Herbert.]

1 minute ago, Francis Albert said:

I know.

 

 

I didn't want lumped in with the other lot.

[luckydug]

3 hours ago, The Treasurer said:

Short term, maybe not much, but I have a feeling pledges will increase once the fans "own" the club 

I'm not so sure about that. 

Many pledgers may take the view that the purpose of their pledges has ran its course and achieved what was set up for. 

That's not my view btw. 

[1953]

3 hours ago, Herbert said:

 

 

I assume the paperwork isn't going to get signed infront of everyone so she can have her party with selected fans and foh board and let someone take over that knows about running a football club.

I would assume that the document signing would happen on the pitch in front of the fans as that will be the point of transfer. As I said I'm quite happy with that as long as it's done at the earliest opportunity i.e. the Aberdeen game assuming all restrictions are lifted at that point.

[Saint Jambo]

The trouble with saying that we are waiting for a party and suggesting that those who are unhappy with the delay are just being unreasonable is that FOH/Budge moved away from the party being the reason for the delay and started talking about 'hoping' that they would be able to complete the paperwork this summer.

 

That said, at this late stage they might as well hold off for another week and if Scottish Government confirm that full stadiums will be allowed from 9th August then announce that the transfer will happen on 21st August at the Aberdeen game. At the same time launch the public sale of season tickets, encouraging people to get on board with the excitement of our first season under fan ownership.

 

If the handover isn't going to happen in August, they really need to explain themselves.

 

[Herbert.]

1 minute ago, 1953 said:

I would assume that the document signing would happen on the pitch in front of the fans as that will be the point of transfer. As I said I'm quite happy with that as long as it's done at the earliest opportunity i.e. the Aberdeen game assuming all restrictions are lifted at that point.

 

 

It will be done in a office, she's just wanting the garden party and to parade around while everyone lauds her for a brilliant job loaning a football club money at a low intrest rate.

[Francis Albert]

22 minutes ago, luckydug said:

I'm not so sure about that. 

Many pledgers may take the view that the purpose of their pledges has ran its course and achieved what was set up for. 

That's not my view btw. 

I have a slight concern that once the shares are transferred FOH becomes a rather obvious tax avoidance scheme. Instead of 8000 people paying an extra 10 or 20%  for their STs they bung in the same amount to FOH and hence the club tax free. Could this have something to do with the delay?

Seems to me more plausible than we want to have a party.

[Francis Albert]

9 minutes ago, Herbert said:

 

 

It will be done in a office, she's just wanting the garden party and to parade around while everyone lauds her for a brilliant job loaning a football club money at a low intrest rate.

It really wasn't that low. 6% fully secured on  the clubs assets wssca decent rate at the time.

Edited July 26, 2021 by Francis Albert

[luckydug]

Just now, Francis Albert said:

I have a slight concern that once the shares are transferred FOH becomes a rather obvious tax avoidance scheme. Instead of 8000 people paying an extra 10 or 20%  for their STs they bung in the same amount toave a ppoont FOH and hence the club tax free. Could this have something to do with the delay?

Seems to me more plausible than we want to have a party.

You could have a point there🤔

[The Treasurer]

28 minutes ago, luckydug said:

I'm not so sure about that. 

Many pledgers may take the view that the purpose of their pledges has ran its course and achieved what was set up for. 

That's not my view btw. 

That's possible, not my view either, but there are definitely some who have either stopped or not pledging until there is a change at the top 

[The Treasurer]

4 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

I have a slight concern that once the shares are transferred FOH becomes a rather obvious tax avoidance scheme. Instead of 8000 people paying an extra 10 or 20%  for their STs they bung in the same amount to FOH and hence the club tax free. Could this have something to do with the delay?

Seems to me more plausible than we want to have a party.

Might be seen that way if ST prices were artificially low or pledges were directly linked to buying one. Neither is the case 

[Francis Albert]

1 minute ago, The Treasurer said:

That's possible, not my view either, but there are definitely some who have either stopped or not pledging until there is a change at the top 

Or just until our seven year old  pledge is marched by the pledge to deliver fan ownership. A change at the top is another matter and is not at present an issue.

[The Treasurer]

3 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Or just until our seven year old  pledge is marched by the pledge to deliver fan ownership. A change at the top is another matter and is not at present an issue.

It is very much an issue for some. Not me I hasten to add 

[Francis Albert]

7 minutes ago, The Treasurer said:

Might be seen that way if ST prices were artificially low or pledges were directly linked to buying one. Neither is the case 

I said it was a slight concern. I am not a tax expert  just trying to think of a more plausible explanation for the delay than a desire to have a party (the most expensive one any of us will have attended!) And trying to understand why Ann is now focussing on the ownership transfer when the FOH Bidco agreement seemed to deal with it fairly clearly. As one would have hoped FOH would have ensured when the deal was done 7 years ago.

[Francis Albert]

12 minutes ago, The Treasurer said:

It is very much an issue for some. Not me I hasten to add 

There is no suggestion Ann's role or that of the other Board members, mostly her appointees, will change with the transfer of shares. Of course in time they may but isn't that what fan ownership means?

Edited July 26, 2021 by Francis Albert

[Herbert.]

24 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

It really wasn't that low. 6% fully secured on  the clubs assets wssca decent rate at the time.

 

 

I couldn't remember the details I thought it was 3 or 4%. She's made a pretty penny out the club either way and got her family jobs out of it. Win Win for her.

[Saint Jambo]

8 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

I said it was a slight concern. I am not a tax expert  just trying to think of a more plausible explanation for the delay than a desire to have a party (the most expensive one any of us will have attended!) And trying to understand why Ann is now focussing on the ownership transfer when the FOH Bidco agreement seemed to deal with it fairly clearly. As one would have hoped FOH would have ensured when the deal was done 7 years ago.

 

If it was an issue, wouldn't it be an issue already? The two companies are already clearly linked. Otherwise, all we would have to do on completion of the shares transfer is set up a new company for the pledges to go in to. As someone else has said, Hearts and FOH will be able to demonstrate that there are season ticket holders who aren't FOH members and vice-versa, that there is no encouragement to sign up to FOH when buying a season ticket, and that our tickets aren't sold below market value. I'm not a tax expert either, but seems pretty unlikely that is the reason behind the delay.

[Francis Albert]

1 minute ago, Herbert said:

 

 

I couldn't remember the details I thought it was 3 or 4%. She's made a pretty penny out the club either way and got her family jobs out of it. Win Win for her.

It was originally 6% but later changes and waiving of interest  meant it was overall near to your number. Still not too shabby.

[1953]

2 minutes ago, Herbert said:

 

 

I couldn't remember the details I thought it was 3 or 4%. She's made a pretty penny out the club either way and got her family jobs out of it. Win Win for her.

Whatever the interest on her loan, she hasn't taken a salary so she could have taken much more but didn't.

[Footballfirst]

3 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

I said it was a slight concern. I am not a tax expert  just trying to think of a more plausible explanation for the delay than a desire to have a party (the most expensive one any of us will have attended!) And trying to understand why Ann is now focussing on the ownership transfer when the FOH Bidco agreement seemed to deal with it fairly clearly. As one would have hoped FOH would have ensured when the deal was done 7 years ago.

There could well be tax implications. However both Stuart Wallace and Louise Strutt have a tax background, so FOH should know what is or isn't allowed.

 

The difference with the pledges pre and post transfer is that, pre transfer, there is a clear separation between the pledges and the club, as FOH is a third party to both the club and the majority shareholder, so the "donations" have no tax implications

 

Following the transfer, FOH will be the majority shareholder, so the pledges or donations would be coming from the majority shareholder into a subsidiary company, possibly meaning that the pledges can no longer be described as donations. 

 

I'm not an expect in such transactions so can't say whether on not that will be an issue going forward. I suspect that there will be a workaround to avoid any tax or other obligations, e.g. have the shares held in a separate entity from the fundraising activities of FOH, such as a Trust. 

[Herbert.]

2 minutes ago, 1953 said:

Whatever the interest on her loan, she hasn't taken a salary so she could have taken much more but didn't.

 

Most old people are happy to work for free to get out the house for a while.

[Francis Albert]

2 minutes ago, Saint Jambo said:

 

If it was an issue, wouldn't it be an issue already? The two companies are already clearly linked. Otherwise, all we would have to do on completion of the shares transfer is set up a new company for the pledges to go in to. As someone else has said, Hearts and FOH will be able to demonstrate that there are season ticket holders who aren't FOH members and vice-versa, that there is no encouragement to sign up to FOH when buying a season ticket, and that our tickets aren't sold below market value. I'm not a tax expert either, but seems pretty unlikely that is the reason behind the delay.

My slight concern was that once FOH is the controlling majority owner it might change the HMRC view. 

Why do you think Ann has now said she is focussing on the share transfer? Why has that suddenly become her major task?

And what do you think is the reason for the getting on for two year delay?

The need to have a party? Really?

[graygo]

A lot of useful new information on this thread.

 

Oh wait, no it's the same old regurgitated shite from the same posters.

[Boab]

1 minute ago, Awbdy Oot said:

A lot of useful new information on this thread.

 

Oh wait, no it's the same old regurgitated shite from the same posters.

A date would be nice !

[Francis Albert]

7 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

There could well be tax implications. However both Stuart Wallace and Louise Strutt have a tax background, so FOH should know what is or isn't allowed.

 

The difference with the pledges pre and post transfer is that, pre transfer, there is a clear separation between the pledges and the club, as FOH is a third party to both the club and the majority shareholder, so the "donations" have no tax implications

 

Following the transfer, FOH will be the majority shareholder, so the pledges or donations would be coming from the majority shareholder into a subsidiary company, possibly meaning that the pledges can no longer be described as donations. 

 

I'm not an expect in such transactions so can't say whether on not that will be an issue going forward. I suspect that there will be a workaround to avoid any tax or other obligations, e.g. have the shares held in a separate entity from the fundraising activities of FOH, such as a Trust. 

Your last paragraph is related to my slight concern about the reason for delay and Ann's new focus on the transfer arrangements. Maybe something has to be put in place.

Of course it may just be the need to have a party.

[1953]

5 minutes ago, Herbert said:

 

Most old people are happy to work for free to get out the house for a while.

Ha ha, good one, I don't think running a football club for 7 years can be compared to getting out of the house for a while.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

FOH’s communication is laughable 

[Francis Albert]

Just now, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

FOH’s communication is laughable 

It might be if there was any communication!

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

6 minutes ago, Awbdy Oot said:

A lot of useful new information on this thread.

 

Oh wait, no it's the same old regurgitated shite from the same posters.

Would it be excessively needy to expect FOH to provide updates? 
 

It’s weird how on the one hand this is described as an extraordinary gesture on the part of football fans yet at the same time, it’s acceptable for FOH and the club to let months pass without any info, as if we’ve collectively donated a fiver

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

1 minute ago, Francis Albert said:

It might be if there was any communication!

The only thing that prompts any communication is the urge to get out the begging bowl

[Herbert.]

39 minutes ago, 1953 said:

Ha ha, good one, I don't think running a football club for 7 years can be compared to getting out of the house for a while.

 

 

Not according to ann, did you see her on that documentary she's like a volunteer in a charity shop.

[1953]

9 minutes ago, Herbert said:

 

 

Not according to ann, did you see her on that documentary she's like a volunteer in a charity shop.

Another belter Herbert, and for your next joke....?

[David Black]

54 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

FOH’s communication is laughable 

It would be if it wasn't so laughable.

[Herbert.]

4 minutes ago, 1953 said:

Another belter Herbert, and for your next joke....?

 

You could see the collective eye roll from the office staff when she walked in.

[1953]

3 minutes ago, Herbert said:

 

You could see the collective eye roll from the office staff when she walked in.

Looks like we're never going to agree on this. You don't like Mrs B, I get that but to get back to the original topic the handover was delayed when the pandemic hit. I personally was happy with that as I thought that it would have been a daft time to have such a major change in the club structure. She then said that it would happen as soon as we could have a full crowd to witness such a  momentous occasion and we haven't gotten to that point yet.

[Francis Albert]

3 minutes ago, 1953 said:

Looks like we're never going to agree on this. You don't like Mrs B, I get that but to get back to the original topic the handover was delayed when the pandemic hit. I personally was happy with that as I thought that it would have been a daft time to have such a major change in the club structure. She then said that it would happen as soon as we could have a full crowd to witness such a  momentous occasion and we haven't gotten to that point yet.

Sorry but why would it be a daft time? When were we told seven  years and £12m  ago that fan ownership was dependent on having a ****ing party?

[Boab]

5 minutes ago, 1953 said:

Looks like we're never going to agree on this. You don't like Mrs B, I get that but to get back to the original topic the handover was delayed when the pandemic hit. I personally was happy with that as I thought that it would have been a daft time to have such a major change in the club structure. She then said that it would happen as soon as we could have a full crowd to witness such a  momentous occasion and we haven't gotten to that point yet.

Not how I read her statement dated 20/5/21. Barring any legal hiccups, the transfer will take place this summer. 
I’ll concede she then went to talk about planning how to mark the occasion but, as usual with Ann’s statements, you can read it both ways.

Personally, I say get it done !

We can mark it later if need be.

[Herbert.]

8 minutes ago, 1953 said:

Looks like we're never going to agree on this. You don't like Mrs B, I get that but to get back to the original topic the handover was delayed when the pandemic hit. I personally was happy with that as I thought that it would have been a daft time to have such a major change in the club structure. She then said that it would happen as soon as we could have a full crowd to witness such a  momentous occasion and we haven't gotten to that point yet.

 

 

You know it will just be a ceremonial signing. Budge should have walked when everything was paid and left in good terms with everyone bit she's tarnished her reputation by dragging on her woeful stewardship.

[jock _turd]

1 hour ago, Francis Albert said:

It was originally 6% but later changes and waiving of interest  meant it was overall near to your number. Still not too shabby.

Certainly makes a mockery of what anybody during that period could have got... although we have has the JKB financial advisors on telling us that people who invest millions can expect a handsome return. .. for those advisors there are very few financial adventures where you invest a fixed sum of money with no risk whatsoever and get a return like she has... not only her but her family as well. In summary she and her immediate family have raked it in with absolutely no risk taken whatsoever everything has been guaranteed by Hearts fans!

 

[Francis Albert]

20 minutes ago, 1953 said:

Looks like we're never going to agree on this. You don't like Mrs B, I get that but to get back to the original topic the handover was delayed when the pandemic hit. I personally was happy with that as I thought that it would have been a daft time to have such a major change in the club structure. She then said that it would happen as soon as we could have a full crowd to witness such a  momentous occasion and we haven't gotten to that point yet.

Throughout the pandemic shares have contunued to be traded and companies have changed ownership.

Why exactly has Hearts been an exception?

Because we need to have a party?

[ford donald]

6 hours ago, Herbert said:

 

 

So it's about feeding her ego.

More than likely,she should retire and depart.

[Boab]

4 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Throughout the pandemic shares have contunued to be traded and companies have changed ownership.

Why exactly has Hearts been an exception?

Because we need to have a party?

Like many parties I’ve been to, if things are not going well in one room, it could go badly wrong !

Do it now…for that reason !

Edited July 26, 2021 by Boab

[Herbert.]

1 minute ago, ford donald said:

More than likely,she should retire and depart.

 

 

Better watch no one accuses you of death threats 😂

[Francis Albert]

26 minutes ago, Herbert said:

 

 

You know it will just be a ceremonial signing. Budge should have walked when everything was paid and left in good terms with everyone bit she's tarnished her reputation by dragging on her woeful stewardship.

Why does it have to be ceremonial?

 

[Herbert.]

37 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Why does it have to be ceremonial?

 

 

Because it will and it will need to be expensive, I'm even expecting vol au vents.

[Saint Jambo]

2 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

My slight concern was that once FOH is the controlling majority owner it might change the HMRC view. 

Why do you think Ann has now said she is focussing on the share transfer? Why has that suddenly become her major task?

And what do you think is the reason for the getting on for two year delay?

The need to have a party? Really?

 

 No idea. I think it's ridiculous that it's taken this long and that we have had so many different explanations of why it's been delayed.

 

If it turns out to be a tax issue that would be real incompetence. FOH have known for years both that they were going to take majority ownership and that they wanted the pledges to be 'for life'. They also insisted on a governance structure that at times blocked people from standing for election without certain skills. They managed to elect or appoint a number of people with financial backgrounds. If they hadn't managed to put in place in good time the structures required to continue the pledge model without tax implications, then they I'd see it as a real failure of governance. At the moment there is nothing to suggest this is actually the case so I'm willing to give the FOH board the benefit of the doubt on this one for now. As for the actual transfer, while unhappy with the delay, in my head the end of August is the next date that will leave me really unhappy if the transfer hasn't happened.

 

To be honest, while I was a great believer in fan ownership, I have real doubts that the 'fan paid for, not fan run' version of fan ownership FOH and Budge have chosen to adopt is healthy and sustainable in the medium term.

[1953]

1 hour ago, Francis Albert said:

Sorry but why would it be a daft time? When were we told seven  years and £12m  ago that fan ownership was dependent on having a ****ing party?

Because nobody knew what was going to happen in unprecedented times. It seemed to me that the status quo was a safer option. I don't remember many discenting voices on here at the time, yourself excepted FA.

[1953]

1 hour ago, Herbert said:

 

 

You know it will just be a ceremonial signing. Budge should have walked when everything was paid and left in good terms with everyone bit she's tarnished her reputation by dragging on her woeful stewardship.

No it won't be a ceremonial signing, there's no reason at all why it can't be done on the pitch.

[Francis Albert]

11 minutes ago, 1953 said:

Because nobody knew what was going to happen in unprecedented times. It seemed to me that the status quo was a safer option. I don't remember many discenting voices on here at the time, yourself excepted FA.

What are the unprecedent times that have prevented the transfer  of shares and ownership? Share trading and transfers have happened thouought the pandemic everywhere. The failure to transfer the shares from Budge to FOH has nothing to do with these exceptional times. 

Maybe excepting the inability to.have a big party. £12m and more on that doesn't seem an adequate reason.

[1953]

45 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

What are the unprecedent times that have prevented the transfer  of shares and ownership? Share trading and transfers have happened thouought the pandemic everywhere. The failure to transfer the shares from Budge to FOH has nothing to do with these exceptional times. 

Maybe excepting the inability to.have a big party. £12m and more on that doesn't seem an adequate reason.

Clearly the shares could have been transferred, nobody is disputing that, but I personally didn't know if it would have been a good idea to do it with the pandemic and all the unknowns about to hit us so I was happy to put it off for a while. Perhaps you have a crystal ball to go with your different opinion.

 

Anyway as I said earlier I expect the big party to happen at the earliest opportunity and I'll be there to witness it.