Marvin Bartley on Newsnight

[Jambo 4 Ever]

2 minutes ago, i8hibsh said:

 

 

Oh ffs get real for goodness sake.

Why?

[Jambo 4 Ever]

3 minutes ago, i8hibsh said:

 

 

He should certainly not be based on one person's account.

Let them deny it then 

[i8hibsh]

1 minute ago, Jambo 4 Ever said:

Why?

 

 

Abuse in general?  Are you serious?

 

This is football, professional sport.  This is not quiditch in a Harry Potter book.

 

There'd be no fans at the games.

[Jambo 4 Ever]

1 minute ago, i8hibsh said:

 

 

Abuse in general?  Are you serious?

 

This is football, professional sport.  This is not quiditch in a Harry Potter book.

 

There'd be no fans at the games.

You don’t get same abuse at American football, rugby, baseball, tennis etc etc 

 

so yes I stand by this - anyone who shouts any personal abuse should be banned.

 

and don’t give the excuse that passion / atmosphere = personal abusive language - there’s no need and people who do this should be ashamed of themselves 

Edited July 14, 2021 by Jambo 4 Ever

[i8hibsh]

Just now, Jambo 4 Ever said:

Let them deny it then 

 

 

I hope you never set foot in any courtroom as part of a jury.

 

The onus is not on a person to deny.  The onus is on soemone to prove.  Innocent till proven guilty is the fabric of any decent society.

 

You can't just go naming and shaming, ruining people's lives and careers based on someone's accusations.

 

Utterly diabolical view that.

[i8hibsh]

Just now, Jambo 4 Ever said:

You don’t get same abuse at American football, rugby, baseball, tennis etc etc 

 

so yes I stand by this - anyone who shouts any personal abuse should be banned.

 

 

I suggest you go start following those sports then.

[Jambo 4 Ever]

1 minute ago, i8hibsh said:

 

 

I suggest you go start following those sports then.

I do and there’s no where near the same level of abusive language from so-called fans 

 

theres No need at all 

[i8hibsh]

1 minute ago, Jambo 4 Ever said:

I do and there’s no where near the same level of abusive language from so-called fans 

 

theres No need at all 

 

 

You may be older than myself,  I don't know but from what I see you need to grow up fast, wisen up, wipe your eyes, strap on a set and get in the real world.

 

Respectfuly,

 

i8

[Jambo 4 Ever]

Just now, i8hibsh said:

 

 

You may be older than myself,  I don't know but from what I see you need to grow up fast, wisen up, wipe your eyes, strap on a set and get in the real world.

 

Respectfuly,

 

i8

Ummm since when does age have anything to do with being ok with foul & abusive language aimed at players?

[i8hibsh]

Just now, Jambo 4 Ever said:

Ummm since when does age have anything to do with being ok with foul & abusive language aimed at players?

 

 

This is not Alice in Wonderland J4E - this is football.  It is not Quiditch.

 

 

[Jambo 4 Ever]

1 minute ago, i8hibsh said:

 

 

This is not Alice in Wonderland J4E - this is football.  It is not Quiditch.

 

 

Just because things have always been done a certain way or behaviours always accepted - doesn’t make it ok.

 

people used to make homophobic chants and that’s now not ok

 

so any abuse of any kind directed at players is NOT OK

[Boab]

[i8hibsh]

1 minute ago, Jambo 4 Ever said:

Just because things have always been done a certain way or behaviours always accepted - doesn’t make it ok.

 

people used to make homophobic chants and that’s now not ok

 

so any abuse of any kind directed at players is NOT OK

 

 

How are you planning for this miracle to happen?

 

Are you also wanting to stop other players being aggressive and abusing other players on the opposaition team to wind them up?

 

Perhaps making it a non contact sport also?

 

Are you Ann Budge?

 

[niblick1874]

46 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

You know that is not what I am saying.

No football fan can take the moral high ground over a fan of another team when it comes to racism at football matches.

 

I can.

 

The racists in the Hearts support must not be used as a reason why the good guys in the Hearts support can't call out racists, and that includes racists in other teams supporters. Can't you see the danger in what you are saying. The idea you can't call out racism in others until there are no racists in anything you have anything to do with is so wrong and defeats the purpose.

 

Don't tell me I can't, because I can.  

[Jambo 4 Ever]

14 minutes ago, i8hibsh said:

 

 

How are you planning for this miracle to happen?

 

Are you also wanting to stop other players being aggressive and abusing other players on the opposaition team to wind them up?

 

Perhaps making it a non contact sport also?

 

Are you Ann Budge?

 

Im Talking about the fans 

[John Findlay]

1 minute ago, niblick1874 said:

 

I can.

 

The racists in the Hearts support must not be used as a reason why the good guys in the Hearts support can't call out racists, and that includes racists in other teams supporters. Can't you see the danger in what you are saying. The idea you can't call out racism in others until there are no racists in anything you have anything to do with is so wrong and defeats the purpose.

 

Don't tell me I can't, because I can.  

In the modern world as you well know.

One supporter of a football team can shout something at a player that is deemed racist and the media will call the support of that said team racists and others then jump on the bandwagon.

I never said you can't call out racists, I said no set of football supporters can take the moral high ground over another set of football supporters.

Now you and I see ourselves as non-racist and we both have a social duty to call it out whenever we encounter acts of racism in the Hearts support and society in general, but to me it doesn't give me a right to some moral superiority. 

I think you may disagree.

[i8hibsh]

Just now, Jambo 4 Ever said:

Im Talking about the fans 

 

 

Football is not like any other sport J4E.  It is tribal - going back generations of families.  It's roots are more intrinsic to the coal mines than the Sydney opera house.

[Sub4TiddlerMurray]

24 minutes ago, i8hibsh said:

 

He made an accusation; a subsequent investigation was carried out and no proof was uncovered.  What other word than "accusation" or "claim" are warranted here?

 

Are you not a fan or evidence?

 

I am suspicious of it all, not all racism claims in general obviously but I am of Isma’s one.

 

He weas playing poor, there was never real love between him and the fans and in my opinion he made it up.  I stress, in my opinion.

 

If his claim was around Section N then I would maybe give it more credence but his claim was that it happened in the and around the VIP area (section P maybe?) and this is quite laughable actually.  This is the least likely place for a racist comment to be made in the entire ground.

 

I am man enough to admit I may be wrong however but I have my opinion on it all the same.

 

 

Opinion is not the same as evidence. You claim there was an 'investigation'. Where is the evidence for your claim that such a thing happened? If it did, how can you be confident it was any more than a damage limitation exercise.

 

With regard to evidence, I just gave you first hand evidence of racism and how it used to be treated at Hearts.

 

I know for a fact that there was no procedure for investigating racism or responding to it because I wrote the club's 'Corporate Responsibility Strategy' that disappeared into a filing cabinet. I trust AB would be much more open to having a policy, and a procedure to make sure it is applied, but not convinced as I say. 

 

[Jambo 4 Ever]

1 minute ago, i8hibsh said:

 

 

Football is not like any other sport J4E.  It is tribal - going back generations of families.  It's roots are more intrinsic to the coal mines than the Sydney opera house.

That’s like saying churches have never been ok with gay people - does that make it ok now? Ofcourse not

 

also fans used to get away with homophobic chants - even our own ones used to chant “oh the hibees are gay”

this is now, quite rightly, not acceptable 

 

as should any personal abuse directed at players 

[i8hibsh]

1 minute ago, Sub4TiddlerMurray said:

 

Opinion is not the same as evidence. You claim there was an 'investigation'. Where is the evidence for your claim that such a thing happened? If it did, how can you be confident it was any more than a damage limitation exercise.

 

With regard to evidence, I just gave you first hand evidence of racism and how it used to be treated at Hearts.

 

I know for a fact that there was no procedure for investigating racism or responding to it because I wrote the club's 'Corporate Responsibility Strategy' that disappeared into a filing cabinet. I trust AB would be much more open to having a policy, and a procedure to make sure it is applied, but not convinced as I say. 

 

 

 

What first hand evidence?

 

You told us of an experience you had.  How on earth is that evidence?

[i8hibsh]

2 minutes ago, Jambo 4 Ever said:

That’s like saying churches have never been ok with gay people - does that make it ok now? Ofcourse not

 

also fans used to get away with homophobic chants - even our own ones used to chant “oh the hibees are gay”

this is now, quite rightly, not acceptable 

 

as should any personal abuse directed at players 

 

 

I love the 'oh the hibeeees are gay song'

 

 

 

Them were the days.

 

 

[Sub4TiddlerMurray]

1 minute ago, i8hibsh said:

 

 

What first hand evidence?

 

You told us of an experience you had.  How on earth is that evidence?

 

 

 

....an experience is first hand evidence. That is precisely the kind of evidence used in the courts 

 

It truly is a waste of energy debating with you ( I knew it would be before I posted but boredom got the better of me)

 

[i8hibsh]

2 minutes ago, Sub4TiddlerMurray said:

 

 

 

....an experience is first hand evidence. That is precisely the kind of evidence used in the courts 

 

It truly is a waste of energy debating with you ( I knew it would be before I posted but boredom got the better of me)

 

 

 

There is nothing factual about your account until proven.

[Jambo 4 Ever]

2 minutes ago, i8hibsh said:

 

 

I love the 'oh the hibeeees are gay song'

 

 

 

Them were the days.

 

 

Even on here they had a gif that said “ a bit gay mate” so a sign of changes - in a positive way that things don’t always have to stay as they are just because it’s the way it’s always been done?

[stevie1874]

2 hours ago, fast_blood said:

 

We may be have been loved but I'm also aware of the "nickname" Marky the D*rky being used within our support. Very outdated and racist. You don't have to hate someone to be racist to them. 

Your aware ? Never heard that in all my time at Tynecastle. 

[i8hibsh]

2 minutes ago, Jambo 4 Ever said:

Even on here they had a gif that said “ a bit gay mate” so a sign of changes - in a positive way that things don’t always have to stay as they are just because it’s the way it’s always been done?

 

 

One of the funniest 4 minutes of comedy ever made imo

 

 

 

 

 

[niblick1874]

 

 

1 hour ago, John Findlay said:

You know that is not what I am saying.

No football fan can take the moral high ground over a fan of another team when it comes to racism at football matches.

 

16 minutes ago, niblick1874 said:

 

I can.

 

The racists in the Hearts support must not be used as a reason why the good guys in the Hearts support can't call out racists, and that includes racists in other teams supporters. Can't you see the danger in what you are saying. The idea you can't call out racism in others until there are no racists in anything you have anything to do with is so wrong and defeats the purpose.

 

Don't tell me I can't, because I can.  

 

5 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

In the modern world as you well know.

One supporter of a football team can shout something at a player that is deemed racist and the media will call the support of that said team racists and others then jump on the bandwagon.

I never said you can't call out racists, I said no set of football supporters can take the moral high ground over another set of football supporters.

Now you and I see ourselves as non-racist and we both have a social duty to call it out whenever we encounter acts of racism in the Hearts support and society in general, but to me it doesn't give me a right to some moral superiority. 

I think you may disagree.

 

You never said, set of football supportes. You said, no football fan. As in, one person. Did you think you could pass that one by me. 

 

Anyway. Glad you figured out where you were going wrong. 

[John Findlay]

3 minutes ago, niblick1874 said:

 

 

 

 

 

You never said, set of football supportes. You said, no football fan. As in, one person. Did you think you could pass that one by me. 

 

Anyway. Glad you figured out where you were going wrong. 

Stop wearing a Green jacket.

[niblick1874]

2 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

Stop wearing a Green jacket.

 

You will have to explain that to me. 

Edited July 14, 2021 by niblick1874

[i8hibsh]

7 minutes ago, sassenach said:

I personally have shouted loads of abuse at Bartley.  Nothing to do with his colour, everything to do with him being a woman bothering ringpiece poker.

 

The thing is, anyone else, including Bartley himself, might see or hear me singling out a black player and assume that I had a racist agenda, which I do not.

 

I am in no way trying to underplay the racism problem, but with people such as Bartley who attract abuse anyway because of their behaviour, how can the amount of abuse with genuine racist intent actually be gauged?

 

 

This is all through society.  Knife crime in London always appears to be pigeon holed for example.

 

Black on black murder (stabbing) = fatal knife attack

Black on white murder (stabbing) = fatal knife attack

White on non white murder (stabbing) = racist fatal knife attack (hate crime)

 

 

For anyone who has never noticed the above, focus in on it it is very much the case.

 

 

[Jambo 4 Ever]

14 minutes ago, sassenach said:

I personally have shouted loads of abuse at Bartley.  Nothing to do with his colour, everything to do with him being a woman bothering ringpiece poker.

 

The thing is, anyone else, including Bartley himself, might see or hear me singling out a black player and assume that I had a racist agenda, which I do not.

 

I am in no way trying to underplay the racism problem, but with people such as Bartley who attract abuse anyway because of their behaviour, how can the amount of abuse with genuine racist intent actually be gauged?

Why shout any abuse at a player at all?

 

makes no sense in these times 

[John Findlay]

21 minutes ago, niblick1874 said:

 

You will have to explain that to me. 

This one I'm letting you figure it out.

[Bazzas right boot]

1 hour ago, i8hibsh said:

 

 

Abuse in general?  Are you serious?

 

This is football, professional sport.  This is not quiditch in a Harry Potter book.

 

There'd be no fans at the games.

 

 

Tbf, you do not get the level of abuse at any other sport. 

 

Why football is seen to be a place that its OK to call other folk wankers, fat, ugly as well as being homophic, sectarian and up until 40 years ago racism was OK as well.

etc is really the bigger question. 

 

The fact is It shouldn't be, but it is. 

 

You might also get bigger crowds, folk tend to avoid angry, agressive  crowds as a form of entertainment. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[i8hibsh]

3 minutes ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

 

Tbf, you do not get the level of abuse at any other sport. 

 

Why football is seen to be a place that its OK to call other folk wankers, fat, ugly as well as being homophic, sectarian and up until 40 years ago racism was OK as well.

etc is really the bigger question. 

 

The fact is It shouldn't be, but it is. 

 

You might also get bigger crowds, folk tend to avoid angry, agressive  crowds as a form of entertainment. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I know the abuse is not ok but in all honesty I am old school and would not want it any other way.

 

I don't want racists shit etc but I want Tynecastle to be a cauldron of extreme hatred when teams come to visit.

 

Flares, flags, shouting and singing non-stop.

 

Probably a reason why I no longer attend the number of games I used to.

 

 

Edited July 14, 2021 by i8hibsh

[i8hibsh]

As it stands Hearts bring out the best china when teams come to visit.

[Jambo 4 Ever]

5 minutes ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

 

Tbf, you do not get the level of abuse at any other sport. 

 

Why football is seen to be a place that its OK to call other folk wankers, fat, ugly as well as being homophic, sectarian and up until 40 years ago racism was OK as well.

etc is really the bigger question. 

 

The fact is It shouldn't be, but it is. 

 

You might also get bigger crowds, folk tend to avoid angry, agressive  crowds as a form of entertainment. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Exactly

 

more families with kids too may attend if there was old men shouting abuse 

[i8hibsh]

3 minutes ago, Jambo 4 Ever said:

Exactly

 

more families with kids too may attend if there was old men shouting abuse 

 

Women also shout abuse.

[Jambo 4 Ever]

4 minutes ago, sassenach said:

 

You could be right.

 

I've been seeing football fans trying to get under the opposition's skin for 42 years though.  I just thought it was the done thing.

It’s not ok anymore. Just because something has always been done accepted in a certain way does not make it ok.

 

for hundreds of years there’s been racism and homophobia but that doesn’t make it ok does it?

[Jambo 4 Ever]

3 minutes ago, i8hibsh said:

 

Women also shout abuse.

Doesn’t make it ok

 

 

[i8hibsh]

4 minutes ago, Jambo 4 Ever said:

Doesn’t make it ok

 

 

 

 

Never said it did.

[Jambo 4 Ever]

Just now, i8hibsh said:

 

 

Never said it did.

So no need to mention it mate 

 

there is no excuse anymore for any abuse of any form directed at an individual player 

[niblick1874]

We need more cardboar cutouts. We could stay at home, all safe and warm. After all, all we need is the telly. 

[i8hibsh]

1 minute ago, Jambo 4 Ever said:

So no need to mention it mate 

 

there is no excuse anymore for any abuse of any form directed at an individual player 

 

 

Even someone like Neil Lennon or Scott Brown?

[i8hibsh]

Just now, niblick1874 said:

We need more cardboar cutouts. We could stay at home, all safe and warm. After all, all we need is the telly. 

 

 

Hmmm not too sure - someone could maybe get a paper cut of one of them.

[Sub4TiddlerMurray]

38 minutes ago, i8hibsh said:

 

 

This is all through society.  Knife crime in London always appears to be pigeon holed for example.

 

Black on black murder (stabbing) = fatal knife attack

Black on white murder (stabbing) = fatal knife attack

White on non white murder (stabbing) = racist fatal knife attack (hate crime)

 

 

For anyone who has never noticed the above, focus in on it it is very much the case.

 

 

 

 

Straight out of the BNP for Beginners handbook

 

...and who needs evidence eh? Just spout $h** and that makes true

[niblick1874]

28 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

This one I'm letting you figure it out.

 

I have no idea. Tell me

[i8hibsh]

Just now, Sub4TiddlerMurray said:

 

 

Straight out of the BNP for Beginners handbook

 

...and who needs evidence eh? Just spout $h** and that makes true

 

 

I'd never vote BNP thankyou very much.

[Jambo 4 Ever]

5 minutes ago, i8hibsh said:

 

 

Even someone like Neil Lennon or Scott Brown?

No no one at all

 

 

[i8hibsh]

1 minute ago, Jambo 4 Ever said:

No no one at all

 

 

 

 

OK, you should write a book.  'The footballing code' 

[niblick1874]

2 minutes ago, i8hibsh said:

 

 

Hmmm not too sure - someone could maybe get a paper cut of one of them.

 

Paper cut shmaper cut, and you can include them sticks and stones man, baby stuff, but see when they start shouting abuse at the players. I'm staying the .... away.